Deposition of:
`Dr. Apostolos K. Kakaes
`
`August 10, 2021
`
`In the Matter of:
`Cradlepoint Inc. Et Al. Vs. Sisvel
`International S.A.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-462-2233 | calendar-de@veritext.com |
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1028
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 1 of 103
`
`

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`Page 1
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` - - -
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` - - -
`
`CRADLEPOINT, INC., DELL, INC., :Case IPR2020-01099
`SIERRA WIRELESS, INC., THALES :
`DIS AIS DEUTSCHLAND GMBH :
`ZTE CORPORATION, AND TZE (USA),:
`INC., :Patent No. 6,529,561
` Petitioners, :
` :
` vs. :
` :
`SISVEL INTERNATIONAL, S.A., :
` :
` Patent Owner. :
` - - -
` TUESDAY, AUGUST 10, 2021
` - - -
` Zoom video-taped deposition of APOSTOLOS K.
`KAKAES taken at 5 VINING LANE, Wilmington, Delaware,
`commencing at 10:00 a.m., before John P. Donnelly, a
`Registered Professional Reporter, and Notary Public
`in and for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and the
`State of Delaware.
`
` - - -
`
` VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS
` Registered Professional Reporters
` 300 Delaware Avenue, Suite 815
` Wilmington, DE 19801
` (302)571-0510
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1028
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 2 of 103
`
`

`

`Page 2
`
`Page 4
`
`1 INDEX
`2 - - -
`3 APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES PAGE
`4 By MR. BENCHELL 6
`5 By MS. MERRILL 219
`6 - - -
`7 EXHIBITS
`8 - - -
`9 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`10
`11 1001 A document titled United ..............7
` States Patent Patent No. 6 529
`12 561
`13 1002 A document titled Declaration .........7
` of Apostolos K. Kakaes in
`14 Support of Petition for Inter
` Parties Review of U.S. Patent
`15 No. 6,529,561
`16 1003 A document titled .....................7
` International Publication
`17 Published Under the Patent
` Cooperation Treaty dated 27
`18 May 1999
`19 1023 A document titled Declaration .........7
` of Apostolos K. Kakaes in
`20 Support of Petitioners' Reply
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`Page 5
`1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We
`2 are going on the record at 10:16 a.m. on August 10,
`3 2021. This is media unit number one for the video
`4 deposition of Dr. Apostolos Kakaes taken in the
`5 matter of Cradlepoint, Inc. versus Sisvel
`6 International, SA, filed in United States Patent and
`7 Trademark Office. My name is Daniel Grbich from the
`8 firm of Veritext, and I am the videographer. The
`9 court reporter is John Donnelly.
`10 I am not authorized to administer an
`11 oath, nor am I related to any party in this action,
`12 nor financially interested in the outcome. Counsel,
`13 please state their appearances and affiliations for
`14 the record.
`15 MR. BENCHELL: Neil Benchell with the
`16 Devlin Law Firm on behalf of the Patent Owner.
`17 MS. MERRILL: Good morning, Kourtney
`18 Merrill with Perkins Coie on behalf of Petitioner CR
`19 Wireless.
`20 MR. HART: Robert Hart on behalf of
`21 Petitioner Thales DIS AIS Deutschland GmbH.
`22 MR. GULLIVER: Gregory Gulliver with
`23 AddyHart on behalf of Thales, also.
`24 MR. JALALI: Neema Jalali from
`
`2 (Pages 2 - 5)
`
`1 APPEARANCES:
`2
`
` PERKINS COIE, LLP
`3 BY: KOURTNEY MUELLER MERRILL, ESQUIRE
` 1900 Sixteen Street
`4 Suite 1400
` Denver, Colorado 80202
`5 303-291-2300
` kmerrill@perkinscoie.com
`6 Representing the Petitioners
`7
`
` DEVLIN LAW FIRM, LLC
`8 BY: NEIL A. BENCHELL, ESQUIRE
` ANDREW DEMARCO, ESQUIRE
`9 1526 Gilpin Avenue
` Wilmington, Delaware 19806
`10 302-449-9010
` nbenchell@devlinlawfirm.com
`11 Representing the Patent Owner
`12
`
` ADDYHART, PC
`13 BY: ROBERT P. HART, ESQUIRE
` GREGORY B. GULLIVER, ESQUIRE
`14 10 Glenlake Parkway
` Suite 130
`15 Atlanta, GA 30328
` 312-320-4200
`16 robert@addyhart.com
` Representing Thales DIS AIS Deutschland GmbH
`
`17
`
` GIBSON, DUNN & CRUTCHER, LLP
`18 BY: NEEMA JALALI, ESQUIRE
` 1050 Connecticut Ave. NW
`19 Washington, DC 20036
` 202-955-8500
`20 jlalali@gibsondunn.com
` Representing Dell, Inc.
`
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`Page 3
`
`1 APPEARANCES:
`2 HOLLAND & KNIGHT
` BY: ALLISON M. LUCIER, ESQUIRE
`3 10 St. James Avenue
` 11th Floor
`4 Boston, MA 02116
` 617-523-2700
`5 allison.lucier@hklaw.com
` Representing Cradlepoint, Inc.
`
`6789
`
` - - -
`
`10
`11 ALSO PRESENT:
`12
`
` DANIEL GRBICH, VIDEOGRAPHER
`
`13
`14
`15 - - -
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1028
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 3 of 103
`
`

`

`APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`
`Page 6
`
`1 Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher for Dell.
`2 MS. LUCIER: Allison Lucier from
`3 Holland & Knight for Cradlepoint.
`4 MR. DEMARCO: Andrew Demarco, Devlin
`5 Law Firm for the Patent Owner.
`6 - - -
`7 (Whereupon documents were premarked
`8 for identification purposes Exhibits 1001, 1002,
`9 1003, 1023.)
`10 - - -
`11 APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES, having been duly
`12 sworn or affirmed, testified as follows:
`13 EXAMINATION
`14 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`15 Q. Good morning, Dr. Kakaes. My name is
`16 Neil Benchell. We have met before in similar
`17 circumstances. But I'd like you to you just state
`18 your name and address for the record.
`19 A. Sure. Good morning to you as well.
`20 My name is Apostolos Kakaes. And I live at 908 Park
`21 Street Southeast in Vienna, Virginia. And the ZIP
`22 Code is 22180.
`23 Q. And as I said before, we have done
`24 this already once. And if you recall, there is some
`
`Page 8
`1 opportunity to object. You understand, though, that
`2 unless she instructs you not to answer on privilege
`3 grounds, you will be required to answer my question?
`4 A. Yes, I do understand that.
`5 Q. Okay. My intent is not to make this
`6 a marathon. I like to take a break about every hour
`7 or so. I am going to try and hold to that.
`8 Sometimes I lose track of time. But, you know, to
`9 the extent you need to take a break to keep me
`10 honest or because you need to take a break, as long
`11 as we are not in the middle of a question or line of
`12 questions, I will try to accommodate you. Is that
`13 okay?
`14 A. Yes.
`15 Q. Finally, this is not meant to be a
`16 memory test. So to the extent you think of
`17 something later on that you want to add or you want
`18 to change, please let me know and I will be more
`19 than happy to have you put that on the record. Is
`20 that okay?
`21 A. Yes.
`22 Q. I believe you have a box of documents
`23 that was sent to you. Is that correct?
`24 A. I do.
`
`Page 7
`
`Page 9
`
`1 rules that I'd like to just kind of agree upon to
`2 make sure that the transcript is accurate and clear,
`3 if that's okay with you?
`4 A. Yes, that's fine.
`5 Q. So of all the people that are on this
`6 call, the most important person is Mr. Donnelly, who
`7 is the court reporter. He is taking down everything
`8 I say, everything you say, everything that
`9 Ms. Merrill says. And so it's important for you to
`10 not answer with a head nod or a shrug but to
`11 actually answer verbally. Do you understand that?
`12 A. Yes, I do.
`13 Q. And given the context that we are in,
`14 you understand that while we are on the record, you
`15 cannot mute your side of the video. Correct?
`16 A. Yes, I do.
`17 Q. I'm going to ask because this is such
`18 an odd environment, that if you don't hear my
`19 question, or you don't understand my question, to
`20 please ask me to repeat it so that we make sure we
`21 have a clear record. Is that okay?
`22 A. Yes, it is.
`23 Q. As unobjectionable as I am going to
`24 attempt to make my questions, Ms. Merrill has the
`
`1 Q. If you would open that and take out
`2 Exhibit 1023, which is your second declaration. I
`3 will just note for the record, Dr. Kakaes is
`4 wielding a pair of scissors in a rather intimidating
`5 way to open up his box.
`6 A. Not meant to be intimidating, I'm
`7 just opening the box. I can just empty everything
`8 from the box.
`9 Q. Whatever is easier for you.
`10 A. It appears there is two sets, I think
`11 they appear to be identical.
`12 Q. Two sets of each document, sir?
`13 A. There are two binders -- I mean two
`14 folders like this, one like that. They appear to
`15 have the same contents.
`16 Q. Okay, well then put one aside. So if
`17 you will take out Exhibit 1023. 1023?
`18 A. 1023, okay.
`19 Q. Can you tell me what this document
`20 is.
`21 A. This is a declaration that I provided
`22 in support of petitioners' reply.
`23 Q. This is the second declaration that
`24 you have provided in this case. Correct?
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`3 (Pages 6 - 9)
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1028
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 4 of 103
`
`

`

`APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`
`Page 10
`
`Page 12
`
`1 A. Yes, that's correct.
`2 Q. And just turn to the last page.
`3 A. Okay, here I am.
`4 Q. And is that your signature?
`5 A. Yes, it is.
`6 Q. I note that you signed this in
`7 Athens, Greece. Correct?
`8 A. That's correct.
`9 Q. I hope we didn't drag you back from
`10 your holiday for this deposition.
`11 A. No, you didn't.
`12 Q. Okay, good. Are there any changes
`13 that you would like to make right now to this
`14 declaration?
`15 A. No.
`16 Q. Okay. Have you had an opportunity to
`17 review you it recently?
`18 A. Yes, I did.
`19 Q. And you were satisfied with the
`20 content?
`21 A. Yes, I am.
`22 Q. Okay. Now, as I said, you had an
`23 earlier declaration. Correct?
`24 A. That's correct.
`
`1 you to prepare a second declaration?
`2 A. I would not be second guessing the
`3 reasoning that the attorneys have. So no, I don't.
`4 Q. They didn't tell you why they thought
`5 you should prepare a second declaration?
`6 A. They asked me to provide some
`7 additional explanations on various points. And to
`8 the extent that they explained what needed to be --
`9 or they informed me what I needed to further
`10 explain, I suppose that would be the reasoning why
`11 they asked me to provide that additional
`12 explanation.
`13 Q. Because they felt you needed to
`14 explain some issues that were not as clear in the
`15 first declaration. Is that correct?
`16 MS. MERRILL: Objection to form.
`17 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't characterize
`18 it that way. They asked me to explain certain
`19 things, provide additional explanation or
`20 clarification, as the case may be. And did I so to
`21 the best of my ability.
`22 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`23 Q. Do you know why they felt there was a
`24 need to explain certain things from your first
`
`Page 11
`
`Page 13
`
`1 Q. Is this declaration consistent with
`2 your first declaration?
`3 A. Yes, it is.
`4 Q. And who decided that this -- that you
`5 needed -- strike that.
`6 Who decided that you should provide
`7 this second declaration?
`8 MS. MERRILL: Objection to form.
`9 THE WITNESS: The attorneys.
`10 Ms. Merrill asked me to provide some additional
`11 explanations, which I did.
`12 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`13 Q. So it wasn't your idea to draft a
`14 second declaration. Correct?
`15 A. I'm not -- I don't create ideas of
`16 what to do. I am asked by the attorneys to provide
`17 my opinions and explain my opinions. And when I'm
`18 asked to do so, I do so.
`19 Q. Okay. So but you didn't approach the
`20 attorneys and say I think we need to provide a
`21 second declaration, did you?
`22 A. No, I'm not in the habit suggesting
`23 that I provide declarations.
`24 Q. Do you know why your attorneys asked
`
`1 declaration?
`2 MS. MERRILL: Objection to form.
`3 THE WITNESS: I think that's the same
`4 question. I would not be trying to second guess or
`5 playing a guessing game of why they did whatever
`6 they did, or why they do whatever they do.
`7 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`8 Q. They didn't tell you why they felt
`9 that there was additional explanation necessary?
`10 A. As I said a minute ago, they asked me
`11 to explain certain things. They asked me to explain
`12 those things. And the reason they asked me to
`13 explain these things, from my perspective, was that
`14 they felt that additional explanation would be
`15 useful.
`16 Q. Do you think that additional
`17 explanation was necessary?
`18 A. Additional explanation can always be
`19 useful.
`20 Q. Thank you. I appreciate that. In a
`21 general concept, I think that's correct. But that
`22 wasn't my question.
`23 MR. BENCHELL: Mr. Donnelly, can you
`24 read back my last question.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`4 (Pages 10 - 13)
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1028
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 5 of 103
`
`

`

`APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`
`Page 14
`
`1 (The reporter read back as
`2 requested.)
`3 THE WITNESS: I did not form an
`4 opinion on whether or not that was necessary.
`5 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`6 Q. The reason I asked you is your first
`7 declaration was rather large, wasn't it?
`8 MS. MERRILL: Objection to form.
`9 THE WITNESS: Depends on how you
`10 define large.
`11 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`12 Q. Well, I mean, it was over 300 pages,
`13 wasn't it?
`14 A. I don't remember the exact number of
`15 pages, but around 300 sounds about right.
`16 Q. When you drafted that declaration,
`17 did you think that that was -- strike that.
`18 When you drafted that declaration,
`19 did you think that that properly described what your
`20 opinions were?
`21 MS. MERRILL: Objection to form.
`22 THE WITNESS: I explained my opinions
`23 and the support for those opinions as best as I
`24 could in that declaration.
`
`Page 15
`
`1 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`2 Q. I understand that, sir. But, again,
`3 my question was did you believe when you drafted
`4 that declaration that you described all of your
`5 opinions appropriately?
`6 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form.
`7 THE WITNESS: My articulation of my
`8 opinions was proper, yes.
`9 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`10 Q. But for some reason your attorneys
`11 felt that those opinions needed further explanation.
`12 Is that correct?
`13 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form.
`14 THE WITNESS: As I said earlier, I
`15 would not be second guessing what my -- what the
`16 attorneys that was assisting thought. You should
`17 ask them.
`18 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`19 Q. Well, they didn't tell you why they
`20 felt your opinions needed further explanation, did
`21 they?
`22 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form.
`23 THE WITNESS: We already talked about
`24 that. And they asked me to provide additional
`
`Page 16
`1 explanation on the things that provide additional
`2 explanations on. And the reason they asked me is
`3 because they felt that would be useful.
`4 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`5 Q. Did you draft this declaration, 1023?
`6 A. Like with any declaration, I drafted
`7 parts of it, the attorneys helped me edit parts of
`8 it. And those are my opinions as stated in that
`9 declaration.
`10 Q. Can you tell me what sections of this
`11 declaration you did not draft?
`12 A. There are no sections that I did not
`13 draft. Like I said, those are my opinions. I
`14 articulated them. I explained them. And the
`15 attorneys had an input into making sure that my
`16 language was as clear as it needed to be, and gave
`17 me some feedback. And I incorporated that feedback
`18 as I saw appropriate.
`19 Q. So with the exception of the
`20 suggestions that the attorneys made, you wrote every
`21 single word in this declaration. Correct?
`22 A. Every single word is an unrealistic
`23 statement. I stand behind every single word that
`24 represents my opinions. But like I said, there are
`
`Page 17
`1 some words that they inserted, suggested inserting
`2 them and I inserted them. And like I said, like in
`3 any declaration, there is a back and forth in terms
`4 of producing the final declaration that articulates
`5 my opinions.
`6 Q. Can you identify those sections of
`7 your report where the attorneys made suggestions on
`8 changes?
`9 A. You are presuming something which is
`10 not factually true.
`11 Q. Well, so did your attorneys make
`12 suggestions on changes to be made to your original
`13 draft?
`14 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form.
`15 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat that
`16 question?
`17 MR. BENCHELL: Mr. Donnelly.
`18 (The reporter read back as
`19 requested.)
`20 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`21 Q. Just to be clear, I think it was did
`22 the attorneys, not his attorneys.
`23 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form.
`24 THE WITNESS: The attorneys made
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`5 (Pages 14 - 17)
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1028
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 6 of 103
`
`

`

`APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`
`Page 18
`1 suggestions all along from the beginning until the
`2 end. And I incorporated some of those suggestions,
`3 and I expanded on some points it was felt I needed
`4 to expand. And like I said, it was a back and
`5 forth. There was no one particular section that
`6 they wrote or one particular section that I wrote.
`7 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`8 Q. When you say that they made
`9 suggestions all along, what do you mean by that?
`10 A. I mean by that, that from --
`11 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form. Sorry
`12 to interrupt.
`13 THE WITNESS: I mean all along,
`14 during the process of the finalizing from the
`15 beginning of writing of this declaration to
`16 finalizing it.
`17 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`18 Q. Did they make suggestions before you
`19 started drafting this declaration?
`20 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form. I'm
`21 going to go ahead and give a privilege instruction.
`22 Neil, I don't think you have set up the privilege
`23 basis that we are talking about any facts or data
`24 that Dr. Kakaes may have relied on in forming his
`
`Page 19
`1 opinions. If you want to go ahead and so to make
`2 sure we are within the confines of Rule 26, it might
`3 be helpful for you to understand we are getting very
`4 close to some privilege issues.
`5 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`6 Q. That's fine. I appreciate Rule 26.
`7 I don't know if it is privilege, but it certainly --
`8 I appreciate what you are saying. So let me
`9 withdraw the question.
`10 Did the attorneys give you any
`11 additional facts for you to rely on when you --
`12 before you drafted this declaration?
`13 A. I'm not sure what you mean they gave
`14 me facts of which to rely on. I'm not a lawyer. So
`15 I don't know exactly what that phrase means. And
`16 the discussion we had about drafting this
`17 declaration, we discussed it. And then we -- so
`18 they informed me of certain things in our
`19 discussion.
`20 Q. You don't know what the word facts
`21 means?
`22 A. I know what the word facts means.
`23 Q. And my question was did the attorneys
`24 provide you with new or additional facts before you
`
`Page 20
`
`1 drafted this declaration?
`2 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form.
`3 THE WITNESS: I don't recall if we
`4 discussed any additional facts that I was not aware
`5 of before. I just don't remember if those were
`6 additional facts or those were facts that I already
`7 knew about. I just don't remember.
`8 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`9 Q. You don't remember then or you don't
`10 remember now?
`11 A. I don't remember now as to whatever
`12 it is we discussed, if they were refreshing my
`13 memory on something and, therefore, I had already
`14 known about it, or if it was something that I had
`15 known about. I just don't remember now exactly what
`16 the timeline was.
`17 Q. Did they give you any new information
`18 about how to apply the law before you drafted your
`19 declaration?
`20 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form. Just
`21 so you know, Neil, I'm objecting because you haven't
`22 qualified it on which he relied.
`23 MR. BENCHELL: That's fine. I
`24 appreciate that. Thank you.
`
`Page 21
`1 THE WITNESS: No, there was nothing
`2 new on the law.
`3 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`4 Q. So is it fair to say, then, that your
`5 declaration relies on no new information that you
`6 received -- whether facts or law -- that you
`7 received from the attorneys?
`8 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form.
`9 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think
`10 that's accurate.
`11 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`12 Q. How is that not accurate?
`13 A. Like I said, I don't remember some of
`14 the facts I may have known before and or they were
`15 new. I just don't recall exactly what the timeline
`16 was of certain things that I became aware of.
`17 Whether those were things that I became aware of
`18 after or before my produced declaration. I just
`19 don't remember. So I don't want to be guessing.
`20 Q. So it could be that the attorneys
`21 provided you new information for you to rely on, you
`22 just don't know what it was, or if there was
`23 anything. Correct?
`24 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form.
`
`6 (Pages 18 - 21)
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1028
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 7 of 103
`
`

`

`APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`
`Page 22
`1 THE WITNESS: They may have provided
`2 me with information that I needed to opine on to
`3 express an opinion regarding some particular aspect.
`4 And I don't remember if that information became
`5 known to me before or after filing the previous
`6 report. I just don't remember the exact timeline.
`7 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`8 Q. And what is that information --
`9 strike that. Are you referring to something
`10 specific that you have in your mind, specific
`11 information that you relied on?
`12 A. I can't think of any specific aspect
`13 right now. But I need to go through my declaration
`14 to refresh my memory of that.
`15 Q. If you want to take a moment to
`16 review your declaration, you are more than welcome
`17 do that.
`18 A. (Witness reading). For example, on
`19 paragraph six, I was informed that the board has
`20 adopted the patent owner's proposed definition of a
`21 POSITA for purposes of decision granting, as I say
`22 in paragraph six. I kind of think that this must
`23 have happened after my declaration because, as I am
`24 thinking about it, the board's decision about
`
`Page 23
`1 adopting the proposal must have come after my
`2 declaration -- my original declaration. I think
`3 that's true.
`4 But, you know, that's what I'm
`5 saying, I don't remember for sure when the board's
`6 adoption of the proposed definition of POSITA came
`7 down. I think it came down after my declaration,
`8 but as my memory is not 100 percent clear on that,
`9 that's why I'm saying I'm not sure. But that would
`10 be one example.
`11 Q. Well, maybe as we go through I will
`12 ask you -- as we get to certain sections in your
`13 declaration, I will ask you whether that's new
`14 information that was provided to you or what
`15 information was provided to you. So why don't you
`16 go ahead and -- one other question, though. So am I
`17 correct that -- let me ask this.
`18 Am I correct that you drafted your
`19 second declaration, sent it to the attorneys, they
`20 came back with suggestions, and that was kind of a
`21 back and forth. Is that how the second declaration
`22 was drafted?
`23 A. I don't remember exactly who drafted
`24 the first draft. They may have drafted an outline
`
`Page 24
`1 of the topics that need to be included, or they may
`2 have told me -- again, that is getting into the
`3 specific conversation with the attorneys. So I'm
`4 not sure I should be getting to those details. So I
`5 don't remember who drafted -- who put the very, very
`6 first skeleton draft, I will call it, for lack of a
`7 better word.
`8 Q. If you didn't agree with what the
`9 attorneys had suggested, what would you do?
`10 A. I would tell them that I don't agree
`11 with something.
`12 Q. Do you recall whether you ever had to
`13 have that discussion when you were preparing the
`14 second declaration?
`15 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form.
`16 THE WITNESS: There was nothing that
`17 was -- that I wouldn't agree with. There were
`18 places where I proposed a better -- what I thought
`19 would be a better, clearer explanation of something.
`20 That's not to say I was disagreeing with what they
`21 were saying. I was just proposing what I thought
`22 was a better language to better explain the point.
`23 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`24 Q. So then is it fair to say that you
`
`Page 25
`1 agreed, in principle at least, not maybe with the
`2 words, but you agreed in general with all of the
`3 attorneys' recommendations to your second
`4 declaration?
`5 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form.
`6 THE WITNESS: The issues discussed in
`7 the declaration, both this one and the previous one,
`8 I had explained the technical aspects to the
`9 attorneys so they were well versed in what the
`10 technical aspects are so there was no place where
`11 they made an error that I needed to correct. Again,
`12 places where explanation could be, in my opinion,
`13 better. And there are other places where they
`14 proposed the language that I felt was actually
`15 better than my explanation.
`16 So like I said, it was an effort to
`17 make the points as succinct and as clear as we can.
`18 And two sets of eyes is always better than one set
`19 of eyes. So they proposed things. And I proposed
`20 things. And we finally -- I finally articulated my
`21 opinions the way I articulated my opinions in the
`22 declaration.
`23 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`24 Q. But to the best of your knowledge,
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`7 (Pages 22 - 25)
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1028
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
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`APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
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`Page 26
`1 there's nothing that they proposed that you said was
`2 just absolutely wrong, do you --
`3 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form.
`4 THE WITNESS: There was not.
`5 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`6 Q. Let's take a look at that one section
`7 you were talking about, which was -- let's see here,
`8 page two starting on paragraph five. It looks like
`9 it is six, seven, eight and nine. Take a moment and
`10 review that and let me know when are you ready to
`11 answer some questions.
`12 A. (Witness reading). Okay, I think I
`13 reviewed it.
`14 Q. So here you set forth what you had
`15 originally proposed in paragraph five, but what the
`16 board adopted in paragraph six. Do you see that?
`17 A. I do.
`18 Q. Do you agree with the board's
`19 definition of person of ordinary skill in the art?
`20 A. Yes, I do.
`21 Q. Because there are some differences.
`22 Is that correct?
`23 A. There are some differences in the
`24 wording, but there are no material or meaningful
`
`Page 28
`
`1 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form.
`2 THE WITNESS: You wouldn't be able to
`3 get a master's degree in electrical engineering
`4 without having developed, acquired the knowledge
`5 required at the bachelor's level. I taught at the
`6 university and we did have people come for a
`7 master's degree in electrical engineering without
`8 necessarily having a bachelor's degree. But then
`9 they acquired that knowledge before getting the
`10 master's degree. So the master's degree encompasses
`11 the knowledge of a bachelor's degree. That's how
`12 anybody would understand this language.
`13 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`14 Q. What university did you teach at?
`15 A. George Washington University.
`16 Q. How long were you at George
`17 Washington University?
`18 A. Seven years.
`19 Q. And you were -- were you an assistant
`20 professor, associate professor, full professor?
`21 A. I think we discussed that in the
`22 previous deposition. I was an assistant professor.
`23 Q. Was that a tenured track position?
`24 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form.
`
`Page 27
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`Page 29
`
`1 differences.
`2 Q. Well, for example, you didn't limit
`3 the degree to a bachelor's degree, did you?
`4 MS. MERRILL: Objection, form.
`5 THE WITNESS: Well, I just said that
`6 a degree in electrical engineering could be a
`7 bachelor's, it could be a master's, could be a Ph.D.
`8 So I just said a degree. And I agree that having a
`9 bachelor's degree would be enough, in addition to
`10 the other aspects of it.
`11 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`12 Q. So if somebody -- so am I correct
`13 that, say, for example, somebody has a history
`14 degree, undergraduate degree, but bachelor's degree,
`15 but a master's in electrical engineering, they may
`16 not fall under the board's definition of person of
`17 ordinary skill?
`18 A. If one had a master's degree in
`19 electrical engineering, one would certainly have the
`20 knowledge obtaining a bachelor's degree. So that
`21 person would fall under the umbrella of the board's
`22 definition.
`23 Q. Even though their bachelor's degree
`24 is a non-science degree?
`
`1 THE WITNESS: Yes, it was.
`2 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`3 Q. But you never -- you never received
`4 tenure from George Washington?
`5 A. Again, we discussed this in the
`6 previous deposition. And my tenure recommendation
`7 by the faculty was overwritten by the
`8 administration, which then the fact that they
`9 encouraged me to sue the university, which I did.
`10 And I won the lawsuit for them having improperly
`11 denied my tenure.
`12 Q. You didn't go anywhere else to try
`13 and get tenure?
`14 A. I'm sorry, say that again.
`15 Q. You didn't try to go to a different
`16 university to get tenure?
`17 A. I did not. And I had good personal
`18 reasons for doing so. I would like a break whenever
`19 you have a chance.
`20 MR. BENCHELL: All right. We can
`21 take a break.
`22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Time is now 10:52.
`23 Going off the video record.
`24 (A brief recess was taken.)
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`8 (Pages 26 - 29)
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1028
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 9 of 103
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`APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
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`Page 30
`1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is now
`2 11:03. Back on the video record.
`3 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`4