Deposition of:
`Apostolos K. Kakaes , Ph.D.
`
`April 6, 2021
`
`In the Matter of:
`Cradlepoint, Inc Et Al Vs. Sisvel
`International S.A.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-462-2233 | calendar-de@veritext.com |
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1027
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 1 of 113
`
`

`

`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`Page 1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` - - - - - -
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` - - - - - -
` CRADLEPOINT, INC., DELL INC., SIERRA WIRELESS, INC.,
` THALES DIS AIS DEUTSCHLAND GMBH,
` ZTE CORPORATION, AND ZTE (USA) INC.,
` Petitioners
`
` v.
`
` SISVEL INTERNATIONAL S.A.,
` Patent Owner
` - - - - - -
` Case IPR2020-01099
` Patent No. 6,529,561
` - - - - - -
`
` REMOTE VIDEOCONFERENCE
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`
` Tuesday, April 6, 2021, 10:05 a.m. EST.
`
` Reported By:
`
` Carrie Gold, Court Reporter
`
` VERITEXT LEGAL SOLUTIONS
` MID-ATLANTIC REGION
` 300 Delaware Avenue - Suite 815
` Wilmington, DE 19801
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1027
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 2 of 113
`
`

`

`Page 2
`
`1
`
`Page 4
`
` I N D E X
`2 PAGE
`3 TESTIMONY OF APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES, Ph.D......... 5
`4 EXAMINATION BY MR. BENCHELL.................... 5
`
` E X H I B I T S
`
` EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
`
`56
`
`7
`
`8
`
` Exhibit Declaration of Dr. Apostolos K. 13
`9 1002 Kakaes in Support of Petition
` For Inter Partes Review of U.S.
`10 Patent No. 6,529,561
` Exhibit United States Patent, Patent 49
`11 1001 No.: US 6,529,561 B2, Date of
` Patent: March 4, 2003
`12 Exhibit World Intellectual Property 92
` 1003 Organization International
`13 Bureau, International
` Application Published Under the
`14 Patent Cooperation Treaty
` (PCT), International Patent
`15 Classification: H04L 1/18,
` International Publication No.:
`16 WO 99/26371, International
` Publication Date: 27 May 1999
`17 Exhibit Comparison of Link Quality 200
` 1004 Control Strategies for Packet
`18 Data Services in EDGE
` Exhibit TS 101 350 V8.0.0 (1999-07) 223
`19 1005 Digital Cellular
` Telecommunications System
`20 (Phase 2+); General Packet
` Radio Service (GPRS); Overall
`21 Description of the GPRS Radio
` Interface
`
`22
`23
`24
`
`Page 3
`
`Page 5
`
`1 THE COURT REPORTER: The attorneys
`
`2 participating in this deposition acknowledge that I am
`
`3 not physically present in the deposition room, and that I
`
`4 will be reporting this deposition remotely.
`
`5 They further acknowledge that, in lieu of
`
`6 an oath administered in person, I will administer the
`
`7 oath remotely.
`
`8 The parties and their counsel further
`
`9 agree that the witness may be in a state where I am not a
`
`10 notary, and stipulate to the witness being sworn in by an
`
`11 out-of-state notary.
`
`12 If any party does have an objection to
`
`13 this manner of reporting, please state so now.
`
`14 (No response.)
`
`15 THE COURT REPORTER: Hearing none, we can
`
`16 proceed.
`
`17 - - -
`
`18 APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES, PH.D., having first been
`
`19 duly sworn according to law, was examined and testified
`
`20 as follows:
`
`21 EXAMINATION
`
`22 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`
`23 Q. Today is April 6, 2021. This is the expert
`
`24 deposition of Apostolos Kakaes. Kakaes?
`
`1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
`2 For the Petitioner Sierra Wireless, Inc.:
`3 Kourtney Mueller Merrill, Esquire
` Amanda Tessar, Esquire
`4 PERKINS COIE LLP
` 1900 Sixteenth Street
`5 Suite 1400
` Denver, Colorado 80202
`6 kmerrill@perkinscoie.com
` ATessar@perkinscoie.com
`7 303.291.2300
`
`89
`
` For the Petitioner ZTE Corporation and ZTE (USA) Inc.:
`10 John R. Hutchins, Esquire
` C. Andy Mu, Esquire
`11 Wesley W. Jones, Esquire
` BANNER & WITCOFF, LTD.
`12 1100 Thirteenth Street, NW
` Suite 1200
`13 Washington, DC 20005
` jhutchins@bannerwitcoff.com
`14 amu@bannerwitcoff.com
` wjones@bannerwitcoff.com
`15 202.824.3000
`16
`17 For the Petitioner Dell Inc.:
`18 Nathan R. Curtis, Esquire
` GIBSON, DUNN & CRUTCHER LLP
`19 2001 Ross Avenue
` Suite 2100
`20 Dallas, Texas 75201
` ncurtis@gibsondunn.com
`21 214.698.3100
`22 Anne-Marie Dinius, Esquire
` Dell Technologies Senior Legal Counsel, IP
`23 176 South Street
` Hopkinton, Massachusetts 10748
`24 512.720.3119
`
`1 A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued):
`2 For the Petitioner Thales DIS AIS Deutschland GmbH:
`3 Gregory B. Gulliver, Esquire
` ADDYHART P.C.
`4 401 Michigan Avenue
` Suite 1200-1
`5 Chicago, Illinois 60611
` gbgulliver@addyhart.com
`6 312.834.7701
`
`78
`
` For the Petitioner Cradlepoint, Inc.:
`9 Allison M. Lucier, Esquire
` HOLLAND & KNIGHT LLP
`10 10 St. James Avenue
` 11th Floor
`11 Boston, Massachusetts 02116
` allison.lucier@hklaw.com
`12 617.523.6850
`13
`14 For the Patent Owner Sisvel International S.A.:
`15 Neil Benchell, Esquire
` Andrew DeMarco, Esquire
`16 DEVLIN LAW FIRM LLC
` 1526 Gilpin Avenue
`17 Wilmington, Delaware 19806
` nbenchell@devlinlawfirm.com
`18 ademarco@devlinlawfirm.com
` 302.449.9010
`
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`2 (Pages 2 - 5)
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1027
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 3 of 113
`
`

`

`APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES, Ph.D.
`
`Page 6
`
`Page 8
`
`1
`A. Kakaes. No worries.
`Q.
`In IPR 2020-01099, in the patent trial appeals
`2
`3 board being taken remotely. My name is Neil Benchell
`4 with the Devlin Law Firm representing plaintiffs in this
`5 case.
`6
`MR. BENCHELL: Ms. Merrill, if you want to
`7 introduce yourself.
`8
`MS. MERRILL: You bet. My name is
`9 Kourtney Merrill with Perkins Coie. I'm counsel for
`10 Sierra Wireless, Inc., petitioner in this proceeding.
`MR. BENCHELL: And I just wanted to
`11
`12 correct something. I said that we were representing
`13 plaintiffs. Obviously, we're representing patent owners,
`14 so my apologies.
`15 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`Q. Doctor, if you can go ahead and state your
`16
`17 name and address for the record.
`A. My name is Apostolos Kakaes, and I live at 908
`18
`19 Park Street Southeast in Vienna, Virginia, and the ZIP
`20 Code is 22180.
`Q. Thank you. I'm going to try not to
`21
`22 mispronounce your name as much as possible, but if I do,
`23 I want to apologize up front.
`24
`I presume, Doctor, you've been deposed
`
`1
`First of all, we have a lot of people on
`2 the call today. The most important person is Ms. Gold,
`3 who is the court reporter. She takes down everything
`4 that any of us say. And the importance of that is that
`5 you have to respond verbally, so you can't shake your
`6 head in a response or give a nonverbal answer. Do you
`7 understand that?
`8
`A. Yes, I do.
`9
`Q. And you understand, given the peculiarities of
`10 this particular deposition being taken through a Zoom
`11 session, during the deposition while we're not at break,
`12 you need to keep your microphone on. In other words, no
`13 muting of your session. Do you understand that?
`A. Okay.
`14
`15
`Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you -- I'm going to
`16 try and be as clear as possible with my questions, but,
`17 obviously, you're the expert, I'm not. So to the extent
`18 you either do not hear a question that I say or you don't
`19 understand what I'm asking, I'm going to ask you to
`20 either have me repeat the question or reword it in some
`21 way. Does that make sense?
`A. Yes, it does.
`22
`23
`Q. Okay. And I'm going to try to be as
`24 unobjectionable as possible, but as most people know,
`
`Page 7
`
`Page 9
`
`1 before; is that correct?
`2
`A. Yes, I have.
`3
`Q. Approximately how many times have you been
`4 deposed?
`5
`A.
`I don't recall the exact number, but probably
`6 in the neighborhood of between 10 and 30, I think.
`7
`Q. Okay. And were those depositions for IPRs,
`8 like as we have today, or were they for other purposes?
`9
`A.
`It was a mixture.
`10
`Q. Okay. And that would be IPRs and court cases,
`11 as it were?
`A. Yes, broadly speaking.
`12
`13
`Q. Okay. Did they all relate to cellular
`14 technology?
`A.
`I guess all of them -- and are you talking
`15
`16 about just depositions or testimony in general?
`Q. Currently, I'm just talking about depositions.
`17
`18
`A. Yes. Related to cellular technology.
`19
`Q. Okay. And I apologize. I should have done
`20 this beforehand. I just wanted to make sure that you and
`21 I are understanding each other so we can make sure that
`22 this deposition transcript is as clear as possible. So
`23 I'd like to go over just a couple of, kind of, ground
`24 rules before we get into the meat of it, if that's okay.
`
`1 that's pretty challenging for me, so Ms. Merrill has the
`
`2 opportunity to object to my questions. I'm hoping that
`
`3 she'll limit that, but to the extent that she does
`
`4 object, you understand that you still have to answer my
`
`5 question unless she explicitly instructs you not to
`
`6 answer. Do you understand that?
`
`7
`
`8
`
`A. Yes, I do.
`
`Q. And, Doctor, this is not a marathon, and so I
`
`9 try and take a break about once every hour if not less.
`
`10 But to the extent that you need to take a break, please
`
`11 let me know, and as long as we're not in the middle of a
`
`12 question or series of questions, I will try and
`
`13 accommodate you. Is that okay?
`
`14
`
`15
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. Okay. And, likewise, this is not a memory
`
`16 test, so to the extent that you are -- to the extent that
`
`17 you remember something afterwards you wanted to add to a
`
`18 question, please let me know, and I'll be more than happy
`
`19 to get that on the record. Is that okay?
`
`20
`
`21
`
`A. Yes, it is.
`
`Q. Okay. So we were talking about your
`
`22 depositions, and you also indicated that you had other
`
`23 testimony. Can you explain to me what you meant by that.
`
`24
`
`A.
`
`I testified as an expert witness in a criminal
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`3 (Pages 6 - 9)
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1027
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 4 of 113
`
`

`

`APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES, Ph.D.
`
`Page 10
`
`Page 12
`
`1 case. It was a murder trial, and the prosecution asked
`
`2 me to assist them explaining how cellular technology
`
`3 worked. But it was not in this realm of
`
`4 patent-related -- it was a criminal trial, so -- so I
`
`5 testified in -- in court in terms of -- they had
`
`6 subpoenaed records from the phone company and so on, and
`
`7 I explained how the -- what the records indicated and
`
`8 then how they're kept and how cellular technology works
`
`9 in terms of the mobiles traveling from point A to point
`
`10 B. And the prosecution needed that testimony to make
`
`11 their case.
`
`12 Q. Okay. And aside from that criminal trial, did
`
`13 you do any other testimony in trial?
`
`14 A. No. I mean, my expert testimony was -- again,
`
`15 by trial, are you talking about district courts as well
`
`16 as, for example, the IPC? And more broadly speaking,
`
`17 I've also testified in some arbitrations related to the
`
`18 wireless communications, so that includes cellular. But
`
`19 it also includes Wi-Fi technology, for example, which
`
`20 might not fall under the cellular umbrella, but broadly
`
`21 speaking for wireless communications.
`
`22 Q. Okay. And approximately how many times have
`
`23 you testified at a trial or in a mediation?
`
`24 A. Like I said, it -- it's hard, but it's more
`
`1 box sealed?
`2 A. The box is -- is sealed, yes.
`3 Q. Okay. So why don't --
`4 A. Yeah, they gave me a pair of scissors here
`5 too.
`6 Q. Okay. I'll just represent that Dr. Kakaes
`7 just brandished some very intimidating-looking scissors
`8 at me, so I don't know what that means.
`9 A. I didn't mean it to be a --
`10 Q. No, I know. I'm just kidding. I'm just
`11 kidding. Why don't we do this.
`12 MR. BENCHELL: Can we go off the record
`13 while Dr. Kakaes opens up the box and organizes the
`14 documents?
`15 MS. MERRILL: Sure.
`16 MR. BENCHELL: Go off the record.
`17 (Brief recess.)
`18 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`19 Q. So, Dr. Kakaes, you should have in front of
`20 you what I'm being told -- and I apologize, I didn't
`21 prepare this -- documents with certain tabs, perhaps.
`22 And I believe the first tab is U.S. Patent 6,529,561.
`23 The second tab is your declaration. Do you see that?
`24 A. Yes, I do. It's a binder that has --
`
`Page 11
`
`Page 13
`
`1 than 10 and I'd probably say less than 30. Probably 20
`
`2 is a rough guess, but I'm sure it's also not quite right.
`
`3 So...
`
`4 Q. When was the last time you testified by
`
`5 deposition?
`
`6 A. I believe it was a little over a year ago,
`
`7 March of last year, just before the pandemic hit.
`
`8 Q. When was the last time you testified at trial
`
`9 or in a mediation?
`
`10 A. Sometime last -- well, not last fall. It must
`
`11 have been the fall of -- of 2019. I'm trying to recall
`
`12 the month, but my memory's failing me, so it was sometime
`
`13 in the fall of 2019.
`
`14 Q. The pandemic has done some strange things with
`
`15 time, hasn't it?
`
`16 A. It apparently has.
`
`17 Q. I understand that you're actually in an
`
`18 office, a law office today; is that correct?
`
`19 A. Yes.
`
`20 Q. Okay. And you should have some documents
`
`21 there that we have sent to you; is that correct?
`
`22 A. There is a box that I'm told has been sent by
`
`23 you, and it's sitting right next to me over here.
`
`24 Q. Okay. Why don't you open that box. Is the
`
`1 apparently it has eight tabs.
`2 Q. Okay. Perfect. Perfect. So let's start with
`3 the second tab, which is your declaration. Why don't you
`4 turn to that? We're going to mark this as Exhibit 1.
`5 MS. MERRILL: Would you like to mark it as
`6 Exhibit 1002 so it aligns with the numbering in the
`7 proceeding?
`8 MR. BENCHELL: Oh, now you're being
`9 clever. Sure. Let's do that.
`10 MS. MERRILL: Up to you.
`11 MR. BENCHELL: That's fine. That's fine.
`12 We'll call it 1002.
`13 (A document was marked as Exhibit 1002 for
`14 identification.)
`15 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`16 Q. All right. So looking at your declaration,
`17 which we are going to mark as Exhibit 1002, can you tell
`18 me what this document is.
`19 A. This is the declaration that I prepared in
`20 support of the petition for the inter partes review of
`21 the patent, U.S. Patent 6,529,561, which I signed on
`22 June 15, 2020.
`23 Q. When you say you signed it, and I'm now
`24 referring to page 297, the declaration of 1002, that's
`
`4 (Pages 10 - 13)
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1027
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 5 of 113
`
`

`

`APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES, Ph.D.
`
`Page 14
`
`Page 16
`
`1 your signature; is that correct?
`2
`A. That is correct.
`3
`Q. And did you write this document?
`4
`A. Yes, I did.
`5
`Q. Have you written similar documents like this
`6 in the past?
`7
`A. Yes, I have.
`8
`Q. Are they typically this -- this is 300 and
`9 some pages. Are they typically this voluminous?
`10
`A. Some are shorter; some are longer.
`Q. Okay. And you wrote everything in this
`11
`12 document, correct?
`A. Yes, I did.
`13
`14
`Q. Did you have any assistance from anybody?
`15
`A.
`I discussed it with attorneys and --
`16
`Q. But they didn't do any of the actual writing,
`17 correct?
`A. They suggested certain things be better
`18
`19 explained, longer explanations or shorter explanations,
`20 so they provided me some feedback in terms of
`21 wordsmithing the document, but the document is my
`22 writing.
`Q. Okay. They edited the document for you. Is
`23
`24 that a fair statement?
`
`1 neighborhood of that.
`
`2
`
`Q. Okay. About how many hours did you work on
`
`3 your declaration?
`
`4
`
`A.
`
`I -- I don't remember. It went over the
`
`5 course of several days, many days, and a few hours here,
`
`6 and more hours there. I don't remember what the total
`
`7 is, but probably upwards of 30, I would say.
`
`8
`
`Q. Okay. So looking at your declaration, I was
`
`9 curious about something. On the first page, page 1,
`
`10 you're talking about your qualifications. This is
`
`11 paragraph 2. Are you there?
`
`12
`
`13
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. The first sentence says "I have over 35 years
`
`14 of experience in electrical engineering and computer
`
`15 science and in fixed and mobile communications networks."
`
`16 Do you see that?
`
`17
`
`18
`
`A. Yes, I do.
`
`Q. When you say you have 35 years of experience,
`
`19 is that practical experience working in the field?
`
`20
`
`21
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. So it's not educational experience. It's not
`
`22 the experience you received during your education, is it?
`
`23
`
`A. No. The 35 years, the first to actually work
`
`24 in the field.
`
`Page 15
`
`Page 17
`
`1
`I'm not sure if edited is -- is -- I would use
`A.
`2 that word because I'm not sure exactly what the scope of
`3 the word "editing" is, but they provided feedback on how
`4 things could be written more clearly, shorter, more to
`5 the point in some cases.
`6
`Q. How did that process work? Did you create a
`7 draft and then send it to them, and then they gave you
`8 feedback?
`9
`A. Yes. I created a draft. They -- they sent me
`10 back feedback, and then I sent another draft, and then --
`11 that was the process.
`Q. And how many iterations? How many times did
`12
`13 this go back and forth?
`A.
`I -- I don't know. I mean, I don't -- I don't
`14
`15 remember how many times.
`Q. More than 50 times?
`16
`17
`A. No.
`18
`Q. More than 20 times?
`19
`A.
`I -- like I said, I -- I wouldn't be able to
`20 put a number, but I don't think it was more than 20.
`Q. Was it more than ten times?
`21
`22
`A. Most probably, no.
`23
`Q. More than five times?
`24
`A.
`I'd probably put it somewhere in the
`
`1
`Q. Okay.
`A. Obviously, the education is separate from --
`2
`3 from that.
`4
`Q. Okay. Now, you received your bachelor's and
`5 master's degree from the University of Colorado in
`6 ultimately 1980, correct?
`7
`A. That sounds about right.
`8
`Q. Okay. Let me direct you to the next sentence,
`9 which says "I attended the University of Colorado from
`10 1974 to 1980."
`A. Yeah.
`11
`12
`Q. Right? Did your education include classes on
`13 cellular technology?
`A. When you say my "education," what exactly --
`14
`15 portion of my education are you referring to?
`Q. Your undergraduate, your bachelor of science
`16
`17 degree.
`A. No, it did not.
`18
`19
`Q. Okay.
`20
`A. Cellular technology did not exist back then.
`21
`Q. Okay. And what about your master's degree?
`22
`A. That did not include cellular technology
`23 either, but included technical fields that relate to
`24 cellular technology, as in communication theory courses
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`5 (Pages 14 - 17)
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1027
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 6 of 113
`
`

`

`APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES, Ph.D.
`
`Page 18
`
`1 and related courses that clearly relate to communications
`
`2 engineering.
`
`3 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say that your
`
`4 experience in cellular technology all came from the 35
`
`5 years of experience in the field?
`
`6 A. No, I don't think that's fair to say.
`
`7 Q. Okay. Why not?
`
`8 A. Because the cellular technology encompasses
`
`9 the aspects of communication engineering, which would not
`
`10 be particular to cellular, and then that experience also
`
`11 relates to cellular because the cellular communications
`
`12 system is a communication system. So the experience and
`
`13 education I had as it relates to communication
`
`14 engineering is certainly part of my knowledge and
`
`15 experience that relates to cellular communications.
`
`16 Q. Okay. You also received your Ph.D. in, I
`
`17 believe you said, 1988, correct?
`
`18 A. That sounds about right.
`
`19 Q. And that was the Polytechnic Institute of New
`
`20 York; is that correct?
`
`21 A. That's correct.
`
`22 Q. Where is that located?
`
`23 A. In Brooklyn, New York.
`
`24 Q. In Brooklyn, okay. Did you go into academics
`
`Page 20
`1 A. They found that -- they opined that I was not
`2 qualified and that the letters of recommendation, despite
`3 appearing to be positive, were, in fact, negative when
`4 one read through the lines. That was one of the
`5 arguments.
`6 Q. And why did they find that you weren't
`7 qualified?
`8 MS. MERRILL: Objection. Form.
`9 THE WITNESS: Why do I think they found
`10 that or why --
`11 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`12 Q. No. What was their stated reason?
`13 A. Like I said, that was one example of the
`14 stated reason, and...
`15 Q. Okay. Let me direct you to your CV, which is
`16 at the end of this document. It's page 313 of 317. And
`17 in particular, I'm curious, looking at your publications,
`18 are these all publications concerning cellular
`19 technology?
`20 MS. MERRILL: Counsel, are you referring
`21 to page 315 of 317?
`22 MR. BENCHELL: Yeah, I directed him to the
`23 beginning of his CV, however his publications are later
`24 on, so thank you for that clarification.
`
`Page 19
`
`Page 21
`
`1 after that?
`2 A. I had been working at AT&T Bell Laboratories.
`3 That also supported my -- furthering my education leading
`4 to the Ph.D. degree, so I continued working at Bell Labs
`5 for a little bit, then I went to George Washington
`6 University in academics, yes.
`7 Q. Now, you're not a professor currently, right?
`8 A. Correct.
`9 Q. You're an assistant professor; is that
`10 correct?
`11 A. Yes. That was the -- included professorship
`12 at the University.
`13 Q. Did you ever become an associate professor?
`14 A. No, I did not.
`15 Q. And you were never granted tenure, were you?
`16 A. No, I was not.
`17 Q. Do you know why?
`18 A. I -- I know what the --
`19 MS. MERRILL: Objection to form.
`20 THE WITNESS: I know what the stated
`21 reason was by the administration overriding the fact --
`22 it is affiliated with recommendation.
`23 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`24 Q. What was that?
`
`1 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`2 Q. So looking on page 315 --
`3 A. Could you repeat the question.
`4 Q. Yeah. Let me restate the question.
`5 Looking -- starting on page 315 are your
`6 publications; is that correct?
`7 A. That's correct.
`8 Q. And are these all publications concerning
`9 cellular technology?
`10 A. Some of them are specific to cellular
`11 technology. Some are broader than just cellular
`12 technology with potential applications to cellular
`13 technology as well, though.
`14 Q. Do you have any publications concerning
`15 incremental redundancy?
`16 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question.
`17 Q. Do you have any publications concerning
`18 incremental redundancy?
`19 A. No. I don't believe I have any that are
`20 specific to incremental redundancy.
`21 Q. Do you have any publications concerning data
`22 puncture?
`23 A. You need to clarify what you mean by data
`24 puncturing.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`6 (Pages 18 - 21)
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1027
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 7 of 113
`
`

`

`APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES, Ph.D.
`
`Page 22
`1 Q. What do you understand that term to mean?
`2 A. It depends on the context.
`3 Q. Well, in the context of cellular technology.
`4 A. Again, within the context of cellular
`5 technology, they're different. It can be different
`6 things.
`7 Q. Okay. What are the different things it could
`8 mean?
`9 A. Well, it could be related to methods used for
`10 source coding. It could be related to methods as part of
`11 the channel coding, so those are two examples.
`12 Q. And puncturing is different based on those two
`13 examples?
`14 A. Well, the -- the word "puncturing" would --
`15 would occur in a certain context. In that context, you
`16 have a specific meaning related to that context.
`17 Q. And just correct me if I'm wrong, you said it
`18 could be related to data coding; it could be related to
`19 channel coding; is that correct?
`20 A. No, that's not correct.
`21 Q. Okay. What did you say? I'm sorry.
`22 A. It could be related to source coding.
`23 Q. Source coding.
`24 A. Yes. Or it relates to channel coding.
`
`Page 23
`
`1 Q. Okay. And what is source coding?
`2 A. Source coding is the process by which
`3 information generated by a source is transformed into a
`4 sequence of bits that conveys that information with an
`5 acceptable, slash, sufficient degree of accuracy to be
`6 transmitted, and eventually received and interpreted by
`7 the receiving entity.
`8 Q. And what is channel coding?
`9 A. Channel coding is a process of taking as input
`10 a sequence of bits and adding redundancy into those bits
`11 and transmitting a larger number of bits, which are also
`12 referred to as either coded bits or bits representing
`13 redundancy for the sole purpose of using said redundancy
`14 to overcome and correct errors that the channel is
`15 usually, invariably, typically creating as part of the
`16 transmission reception process.
`17 Q. Okay. And so how does data puncturing differ
`18 for channel coding and source coding?
`19 A. I -- I did not provide any opinions on source
`20 coding, and I wouldn't want to give a long tutorial on
`21 source coding, but if you'd like me to, I would -- I'd
`22 address that. Is that what you want me to do?
`23 Q. If you can do it briefly, sure.
`24 A. I don't think I can do it briefly.
`
`Page 24
`
`1 Q. Okay. I'll take your direction on that then.
`
`2 So relating just to channel coding, since that seems to
`
`3 be what you believe was the basis of your declaration, do
`
`4 you have any publications concerning data puncturing in
`
`5 channel coding?
`
`6 A. Yes, I do.
`
`7 Q. And which are those publications?
`
`8 A. So for -- I'll just list some examples because
`
`9 I don't want to try to recall all of them. But No. 10,
`
`10 "Comparison of TDMA and CDMA for Cellular Networks," the
`
`11 presentation and the paper that I presented in -- in
`
`12 France and dealt with issues that are common to TDMA and
`
`13 to CDMA cellular networks that involve, among other
`
`14 things, a coding which also involves -- as part of the
`
`15 coding process, it involves a number of different steps,
`
`16 puncturing typically being one of them, so I discussed
`
`17 that there.
`
`18 Let me see. No. 15. When I presented a
`
`19 tutorial on GSM, I discussed the coding in -- in the
`
`20 context of GSM, which included the puncturing. And,
`
`21 similarly -- similar but different presentation and paper
`
`22 presented in Poland in 18. No. 21, where I discussed
`
`23 the -- the spread spectrum of mobile communications. I
`
`24 would have talked about the coding that's used in a
`
`Page 25
`1 spread spectrum system, which would include the concepts
`
`2 of puncturing.
`
`3 Same idea with No. 22, which is the same
`
`4 idea as presented in the context of GSM. No. 23 is also
`
`5 related to GSM, and I would have talked about coding
`
`6 including puncture in GSM. In No. 24, presenting the
`
`7 evolution of GSM into future technologies, I would have
`
`8 talked about it, as I would have in No. 27, as well as
`
`9 29 -- I'm sorry -- 28.
`
`10 Q. Looking at your list here, it looks like 15,
`
`11 18, 22, and 23 are all global system for mobile
`
`12 communications GSM presentations; is that correct?
`
`13 A. I'm sorry. Could you repeat the numbers.
`
`14 Q. Yes. 15, 18, 22, and 23.
`
`15 A. Yes.
`
`16 Q. Were those the same presentation being given
`
`17 in different locations?
`
`18 A. No, they are not the same, but obviously there
`
`19 was an overlap.
`
`20 Q. I'm sorry. I missed that last part.
`
`21 Obviously there was a what?
`
`22 A. An overlap.
`
`23 Q. Overlap. 10 percent overlap or 90 percent
`
`24 overlap?
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`7 (Pages 22 - 25)
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1027
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 8 of 113
`
`

`

`APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES, Ph.D.
`
`Page 26
`
`1 A. The overlap varied because the audience was
`
`2 different and the depths of discussion were varied. I
`
`3 would say probably a better guess of the overlap would be
`
`4 50 percent.
`
`5 Q. Okay. Let me just confirm one thing. Were
`
`6 all of the things that you just identified presentations,
`
`7 or did they also include papers?
`
`8 A. Some of both. Some included a presentation
`
`9 and a paper. Others were just papers. And I think some
`
`10 have been just presentations.
`
`11 Q. Okay. And of the papers from the list that
`
`12 you just identified where you talked about puncturing,
`
`13 were those peer-reviewed papers?
`
`14 A. Some of them were; others were not.
`
`15 Q. Let's do it the easy way. You talked about
`
`16 entry No. 10, which is a comparison of TDMA and CDMA for
`
`17 cellular networks. Was that a presentation or a paper?
`
`18 A. It -- I don't remember with certainty. I -- I
`
`19 know it was a presentation, but I think I may have
`
`20 submitted a paper there as well. I just don't remember.
`
`21 Q. And if you had submitted a paper, do you know
`
`22 whether that would have been peer reviewed?
`
`23 A. No, I don't. I don't remember.
`
`24 Q. Okay. Now, we said that 15, 18 were
`
`Page 28
`1 Q. And would that paper have been peer reviewed?
`2 A. I would think so.
`3 Q. What about --
`4 A. Speaking -- that's speaking --
`5 Q. -- No. 24? I'm sorry.
`6 A. That's -- that's information from the fact
`7 that it was at the ICC. I don't remember specifically,
`8 but my sense is that that was peer reviewed.
`9 Q. But it may not hav