Deposition of:
`Apostolos K. Kakaes(2)
`
`December 3, 2021
`
`In the Matter of:
`Cradlepoint, Inc Et Al Vs. Sisvel SPA
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-462-2233 | calendar-de@veritext.com |
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1025
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 1 of 72
`
`

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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` _______________________________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` _______________________________
`
` CRADLEPOINT, INC., DELL INC., HONEYWELL
` INTERNATIONAL, INC., SIERRA WIRELESS, INC., TCL
` COMMUNICATION TECHNOLOGY HOLDINGS LIMITED, TCT
`MOBILE INTERNATIONAL LIMITED, TCT MOBILE, INC., TCT
` MOBILE (US) INC., TCT MOBILE (US) HOLDINGS INC.,
` THALES DIS AIS DEUTSCHLAND GMBH,
` Petitioner,
` v.
` SISVEL S.P.A.,
` Patent Owner.
`
` - - -
`
` December 3, 2021
`
` - - -
`
` Videotaped deposition of DR. APOSTOLO
` K. KAKAES, taken pursuant to Notice, held
` via Zoom, beginning at approximately 7:20
` p.m., before Mary Hammond, a Registered
` Professional Reporter and Notary Public in
` the state of Pennsylvania.
` - - -
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1025
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 2 of 72
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`1 A-P-P-E-A-R-A-N-C-E-S
`2 DEVLIN LAW FIRM LLC
` BY: NEIL BENCHELL, ESQUIRE
`3 1526 Gilpin Avenue
` Wilmington, Delaware 19806
`4 (302) 449-9010
` nbenchell@devlinlawfirm.com
`5 Attorney for Patent Owner
`6
`
` DEVLIN LAW FIRM LLC
`7 BY: ANDREW DeMARCO, ESQUIRE
` 1526 Gilpin Avenue
`8 Wilmington, Delaware 19806
` (302) 449-9010
`9 ademarco@devlinlawfirm.com
` Attorney for Patent Owner
`
`10
`11 PERKINS COIE LLP
` BY: KOURTNEY MERRILL, ESQUIRE
`12 1900 16th Street
` Suite 1400
`13 Denver, Colorado 80202
` (303) 291-2300
`14 kmerrill@perkinscoie.com
` Attorney for Petitioner, Sisvel Wireless
`
`15
`16 PERKINS COIE LLP
` BY: RODERICK O'DORISIO, ESQUIRE
`17 1900 16th Street
` Suite 1400
`18 Denver, Colorado 80202
` (303) 291-2300
`19 rodorisio@perkinscoie.com
` Attorney for Petitioner, Sisvel Wireless
`
`20
`21 K&L GATES LLP
` BY: ERIK HALVERSON, ESQUIRE
`22 70 West Madison Street
` Suite 3100
`23 Chicago, Illisnois 60602
` (312) 807-4240
`24 erik.halverson@klgates.com
` Attorney Honeywell International, Inc.
`
`Page 2
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`Page 4
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`1 - - -
`2 I-N-D-E-X
`3 - - -
`4 WITNESS:
`5 DR. APOSTOLOS K. KAKAES
`6
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` PAGE
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`7
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`8
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`9
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`10
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`BY MR. BENCHELL 5
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`BY MS. MERRILL --
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`BY MR. GULLIVER --
`
`BY MR. O'DORISIO --
`
`BY MR. BARON --
`
`BY MR. DeMARCO --
`
`BY MR. HALVERSON --
`
`14
`15
`16 - - -
`17 E-X-H-I-B-I-T-S
`18 - - -
`19 NAME DESCRIPTION PAGE
`20 (Whereupon, there were no exhibits
`21 marked at this time.)
`22
`23
`24
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`1 A-P-P-E-A-R-A-N-C-E-S - (Continued)
`2
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` ADDYHART PC
`3 BY: GREGORY B. GULLIVER, ESQUIRE
` 10 Glenlake Parkway
`4 Suite 130
` Atlanta, Georgia 30328
`5 (312) 834-7701
` gbgulliver@addyhart.com
`6 Attorney for Thales DIS AIS Deutschland GmbH
`7
`
` HOLLAND & KNIGHT LLP
`8 BY: JACOB K. BARON, ESQUIRE
` 10 St. James Avenue
`9 11th Floor
` Boston, Massechesetts 02116
`10 (617) 523-2700
` jacob.baron@hklaw.com
`11 Attorney for Cradlepoint, Inc.
`12
`13
`14
`15 Also Present: Robert Leventhal, Videographer
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
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`24
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`Page 3
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`Page 5
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`1 - - -
`2 P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S
`3 - - -
`4 (By agreement of counsel, the
`5 reading, signing, sealing, certification
`6 and filing are waived, and all objections
`7 as to the form of the question, are
`8 reserved until the time of trial.)
`9 - - -
`10 THE COURT REPORTER: The attorneys
`11 participating in this deposition
`12 acknowledge that I am not physically
`13 present in the deposition room, and that I
`14 will be reporting this deposition
`15 remotely.
`16 They further acknowledge that, in
`17 lieu of an oath administered in person, I
`18 will administer the oath remotely.
`19 The parties further agree that if the
`20 witness is testifying from a state where I
`21 am not a Notary, that the witness may be
`22 sworn in by an out-of-state Notary.
`23 If any party has an objection to this
`24 manner of reporting, please state it now.
`
`2 (Pages 2 - 5)
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1025
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 3 of 72
`
`

`

`Page 6
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`Page 8
`
`1 Hearing none, we can proceed.
`2 - - -
`3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We
`4 are going on the record at 12:03 p.m., on
`5 December 3rd, 2021.
`6 Please note that the microphones are
`7 sensitive, may pick up whispering, private
`8 conversations, and cellular interference.
`9 Please turn off all cellphones, or place
`10 them away from the microphone, as they can
`11 interfere with the deposition audio.
`12 Audio and video recording will
`13 continue to take place, unless all parties
`14 agree to go off the record.
`15 This is Media Unit Number 1 of the
`16 video-recorded deposition of Dr. Apostolos
`17 Kakaes, taken in the matter of
`18 Cradlepoint, Inc., et al versus Sisvel
`19 S.P.A., which is filed in the United
`20 States Patent and Trademark Office before
`21 Patent and Appeal Board, Docket Numbers
`22 IPR2021-00580 and IPR2021-00584. This is
`23 a Zoom deposition.
`24 My name is Robert Leventhal from the
`
`1 for the second deposition that will take
`2 place later today.
`3 The parties agreed that this shared
`4 portion of the transcript will extend only
`5 to introductory questions directed to
`6 Dr. Kakaes' education and experience and
`7 not any issues specific to this IPR
`8 proceeding, which is the 580 IPR
`9 proceeding or the second IPR proceeding,
`10 which is the 584 IPR.
`11 The parties will state on the record
`12 when that portion of the transcript is
`13 complete for a clear record, and when
`14 Patent Owner is ready to move on to any
`15 issues specific to this first proceeding.
`16 MR. BENCHELL: I will just state for
`17 the record, I don't know that -- that the
`18 parties necessarily came to agreement over
`19 anything. I don't think there was any --
`20 any dispute to begin with. But be that as
`21 it may, we'll -- we'll proceed
`22 accordingly.
`23 - - -
`24 DIRECT EXAMINATION - QUALIFICATIONS
`
`Page 7
`1 firm, Veritex. I'm the videographer. The
`2 court reporter is Mary Hammond from
`3 Veritext. I am not authorized to
`4 administer an oath. I am not related to
`5 any party in this action, nor am I
`6 financially interested in the outcome.
`7 Counsel, please announce their
`8 appearances and affiliations for the
`9 record.
`10 MR. BENCHELL: Yes. On behalf of
`11 Patent Owners, Neil Benchell with the
`12 Devlin Law Firm.
`13 MS. MERRILL: Good morning. My name
`14 is Kourtney Merrill with Perkins Coie for
`15 Petitioner, Sisvel Wireless. With me on
`16 the line today is my colleague, Roderick
`17 O'Dorisio, and counsel for other
`18 Petitioners.
`19 Petitioners have a short introductory
`20 statement, which is that Petitioners and
`21 Patent Owner reached agreement this
`22 morning on a procedure for copying the
`23 introductory section of this first
`24 deposition transcript into the transcript
`
`Page 9
`
`1 - - -
`2 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`3 Q. Dr. Kakaes --
`4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Wait. We have --
`5 we have to swear in the witness.
`6 MR. BENCHELL: Oh, I'm sorry.
`7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Yeah. Any
`8 other -- any other appearances that have
`9 to be announced?
`10 (No response.)
`11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. Can the
`12 court reporter please swear in the
`13 witness.
`14 - - -
`15 DR. APOSTOLO K. KAKAES, after having
`16 been first duly sworn, was examined and
`17 testified as follows:
`18 - - -
`19 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`20 Q. Good morning, Dr. Kakaes.
`21 Can you just state your name and -- and
`22 address for the record?
`23 A. I'm sorry?
`24 Q. Can you state your name and address for
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`3 (Pages 6 - 9)
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1025
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 4 of 72
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`Page 10
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`1 the record?
`2 A. Sure. My name is Apostolos, middle
`3 initial K, last name Kakaes, and I reside at 908
`4 Park Street Southeast, in Vienna, Virginia 22180.
`5 Q. And is that where -- are you currently in
`6 Vienna, Virginia, right now?
`7 A. No, I am not.
`8 Q. And where are you, right now, sir?
`9 A. I am in Seattle, Washington.
`10 Q. Okay.
`11 And do you have any documents in front of
`12 you aside from what was sent to you?
`13 A. I don't have any documents in front of me.
`14 I -- there is a box that arrived, which is down
`15 here, and I was told consist of the prior
`16 depositions for the documents that was -- you asked
`17 me to do so.
`18 Q. Okay.
`19 Are you in communications with anybody
`20 aside from the people participating in this
`21 deposition
`22 A. You mean, today, as we speak, or?
`23 Q. During the deposition, right now, right
`24 this minute.
`
`Page 11
`1 A. No. No. No. Just -- just whoever is on
`2 this call.
`3 Q. You don't have a -- a cell phone open,
`4 getting text messages from anybody, do you?
`5 A. Correct. I do not.
`6 Q. You don't have another screen open,
`7 getting emails from other people, do you?
`8 A. Correct. I do not.
`9 Q. And there's nobody sitting in room that we
`10 can't see on the video; is that correct?
`11 A. Correct. There is no one here.
`12 Q. All right.
`13 Dr. Kakaes, we've been through this a few
`14 times, but apparently we're going to have to do this
`15 again. So I just want to remind you of some of the
`16 -- the -- the kind of the ground rules we're going
`17 to try to follow today.
`18 As -- as you'll recall, there's a number
`19 of people, and it was discussed beforehand. There's
`20 a number on people on this call. The -- the -- the
`21 two most important people are our videographer,
`22 Robert Leventhal, and our court reporter, Mary
`23 Hammond.
`24 In particular, Ms. Hammond is taking down
`
`Page 12
`1 every word that you or I or Ms. Merrill says during
`2 the deposition; you understand that, right?
`3 A. Yes, I do.
`4 Q. And you understand that it's important for
`5 you to speak verbally, as opposed to use head nods
`6 or other nonverbal communication during this
`7 deposition, correct?
`8 A. Yes.
`9 Q. Okay.
`10 I'm going to ask that if -- you know,
`11 also, since this is a video deposition, you
`12 understand that while we are on the record, you
`13 shouldn't be muting your microphone in any way,
`14 correct?
`15 A. Yes, I do.
`16 Q. Okay.
`17 You also -- well, let me say it this way.
`18 Because of the technology and whatnot -- and I think
`19 we've already addressed or experienced this already
`20 today -- to the extent that you don't hear me, I'm
`21 going to ask you to ask me to repeat the question.
`22 We want to make sure that you're answering
`23 the question that I'm asking you; you understand
`24 that, right?
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`Page 13
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`1 A. Yes. If I cannot hear you well, or I
`2 didn't quite understand something, I will ask you to
`3 repeat it.
`4 Q. Okay.
`5 And -- and I am a -- an attorney. I am
`6 not a -- an expert in cellular technology. So if
`7 there's a question I ask that doesn't make sense to
`8 you, would you also let me know that you don't
`9 understand the question and -- and ask me to -- to
`10 repeat it or -- or rephrase it?
`11 A. Yes. If I don't have an understanding of
`12 the question, I will ask you to do so.
`13 Q. Okay.
`14 Now, Ms. Merrill has the opportunity to
`15 object to the questions.
`16 However, unless she explicitly tells you
`17 or instructs you not to answer the question, you
`18 understand you're going to have to answer my
`19 questions even if she's objecting to that, correct.
`20 A. Yes, I do.
`21 Q. And, as we've talked about in the past,
`22 this is -- I don't mean this to be a marathon. I
`23 try to take a break about every hour or so.
`24 To the extent that you need to take a
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`4 (Pages 10 - 13)
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1025
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 5 of 72
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`Page 14
`1 break, either to -- for whatever reason, will you
`2 let me know that and we'll -- presuming there's no
`3 questions that are pending or series of questions
`4 we're in the middle of, I will try to accommodate
`5 that; do you understand that?
`6 A. Yes. Thank you.
`7 Q. Okay.
`8 And, finally, this is not a memory test.
`9 This is -- this is simply trying to get the
`10 information from you that -- to explain your
`11 opinions.
`12 And so to the extent that you remember
`13 something about a question you had answered
`14 previously, or if there was a -- an issue that you
`15 wanted to re-raise, if you'll let me know that, I
`16 will be more than happy to get that on the record;
`17 you do you understand that, right, too?
`18 A. I'm -- I'm not sure what you're saying.
`19 Q. Well, if you want to add to an answer, you
`20 want to reword, you know, restate an answer that you
`21 had said previously, you just need to let me know
`22 and we'll make sure you get that on the record --
`23 A. Oh, okay.
`24 Q. -- you understand that, right?
`
`Page 16
`
`1 Judging from the tabs that each one has,
`2 it looks like they are identical.
`3 Q. Okay.
`4 They -- we may have sent you multiple
`5 binders, two binders, presuming that there might be
`6 somebody there. So why don't you -- if you'll --
`7 we're just -- we're just concerned about the 584
`8 declaration right now.
`9 So do you have that in front of you?
`10 A. Yeah. Let me just put the others away.
`11 Yes, I do.
`12 Q. And just to authenticate this, this is --
`13 this is your declaration concerning the Patent
`14 Number 7551625; is that correct?
`15 A. I'm trying to find the correct one.
`16 Yes. I found the declaration on the top
`17 1003.
`18 Q. And the first page says, "Declaration of
`19 Dr. Apostolos K. Kakaes in Support of Petition for
`20 Interparte Review of US Patent Number 7551625"; is
`21 that right?
`22 A. Correct.
`23 Q. And at the bottom it says, "Cradlepoint,
`24 Inc., et al EX 1003"; is that correct?
`
`Page 15
`1 A. Understood, yes. Thank you. Mm-humm.
`2 Q. Okay.
`3 And, one other thing, you also understand
`4 that any discussions you have with your attorneys,
`5 from this point forward until the end of the
`6 deposition, I'm allowed to ask you about, correct?
`7 A. Yes, I do.
`8 Q. Okay.
`9 Why don't you open up your -- that box
`10 that we sent you, and pull out the -- the
`11 declaration you filed in IPR021584.
`12 A. I want to move off camera to pick up the
`13 box.
`14 Q. That's fine.
`15 A. (Witness is now opening the box.)
`16 I'm sorry. Which one did you say?
`17 Q. The declaration. It's IPR2021-00584.
`18 A. There are two binders that have that front
`19 page.
`20 Q. Okay.
`21 A. I think I marked them identical, but I
`22 haven't checked.
`23 Q. Well, let's check then.
`24 A. (Witness complied.)
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`Page 17
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`1 A. That's correct as well.
`2 MR. BENCHELL: So this is -- just for
`3 the record, this is Exhibit-1003 from the
`4 '584IPR.
`5 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`6 Q. So, if you'll go to the last page, sir,
`7 Page 105, is that your signature?
`8 A. Yes, it is.
`9 Q. And did you write this declaration, sir?
`10 A. Yes, I did.
`11 Q. You wrote every word?
`12 A. I stand by every word in it that express
`13 my opinions.
`14 Q. I appreciate that, but that wasn't my
`15 question.
`16 Did you write every word, sir?
`17 A. I got feedback from the attorneys. They
`18 suggested some changes, some improvements, some
`19 better wording, and to the extent that I agreed with
`20 those and to the extent that they expressed my
`21 opinions correctly, I accepted those suggested
`22 changes.
`23 Q. So you wrote the first draft and sent it
`24 to your attorneys and they provided recommended
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`5 (Pages 14 - 17)
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1025
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 6 of 72
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`Page 18
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`Page 20
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`1 changes; is that correct?
`2 A. Excuse me. It -- it was a drafting
`3 process, you know. It consisted of me providing
`4 them information, the attorneys asking me to include
`5 certain sections that I may not have felt or
`6 included my own, and came up with a draft that I
`7 sent to the attorneys and they sent it back with
`8 suggested changes, as I said earlier.
`9 Q. Okay.
`10 But -- but you were the one who drafted
`11 the first -- the first draft of this document --
`12 declaration, correct?
`13 A. There may have been something you might
`14 call a first draft, a skeleton outline of topics
`15 that I need to address that I may have gotten from
`16 attorneys.
`17 So it depends on how you define the first
`18 draft, if the answer is yes or the answer is maybe
`19 no, but they provided some input into making sure
`20 that I addressed all of the sections or topics that
`21 they felt needed to be addressed.
`22 Q. But irrespective of who wrote it, you --
`23 you agree with everything in this declaration,
`24 correct?
`
`1 A. Yes, absolutely.
`2 Q. Okay.
`3 What do you consider your area of
`4 expertise with regard to this declaration?
`5
`MS. MERRILL: Neil, I'm going to go
`6 ahead and say that that appears to be a
`7 question specific to this IPR, not his
`8 general background questions on education
`9 and experience.
`10
`MR. BENCHELL: All right. Let me
`11 reword the question.
`12 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`13 Q. Generally, sir, what do you consider your
`14 area of expertise?
`15 A. My area of expertise is communication
`16 engineering, and most of the work I've done in the
`17 recent past is in the area of wireless
`18 communications.
`19 Q. Okay.
`20 And just so we're -- we're clear, this is
`21 not the first declaration that you have provided in
`22 the IPRs concerning Sisvel and the petitioners here,
`23 correct?
`24 A. This is not the first declaration I've
`
`Page 19
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`1 A. Yes.
`2 Q. Are there any changes you'd like to make
`3 to this declaration?
`4 A. I think that, as I was looking at this, I
`5 did find basically a software-generated problem, I
`6 guess, at the very end, which I did not catch. I
`7 need to find it. I don't remember the page number.
`8 But it was a link -- a link problem related to a
`9 section.
`10 And so there's a typo. I'll call it a
`11 typo, for lack of a better word, some word which I
`12 don't remember exactly where it is, but other than
`13 that I did not find any other errors.
`14 Q. Okay.
`15 So there's one typo that you're aware of,
`16 but you're not 100-percent sure where that is; is
`17 that correct?
`18 A. Yes. And I call it a typo because that's
`19 the closest approximation to it.
`20 Q. Okay. And that's fine.
`21 You'll -- will you let us know if we --
`22 we come upon that typo --
`23 A. Sure.
`24 Q. -- during today's deposition?
`
`Page 21
`1 provided. I'm not sure that the set of petitioners
`2 is the same in the previous declarations --
`3 Q. Okay.
`4 A. -- as in this case. So -- so, generally
`5 speaking, no, it's not the first declaration, but
`6 I'm not sure of the specifics -- if those petitions
`7 are the same.
`8 Q. In fact, this isn't even the first time
`9 you've been an expert, correct?
`10 A. I have been an expert for a long time. So
`11 I don't know if this is the first or second time.
`12 Q. Yeah. Let me be more specific. That --
`13 that wasn't -- that wasn't very clear.
`14 Prior to these -- these set of IPRs with
`15 Sisvel, you were -- you've provided expert
`16 declarations in other cases, right?
`17 A. Yes.
`18 Q. Do you -- do you know how -- approximately
`19 how many?
`20 A. I've served as an expert witnesses in --
`21 in -- in many cases. I -- I don't know how many.
`22 Q. Are we talking about a million?
`23 A. A million cases?
`24 Q. Yeah.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`6 (Pages 18 - 21)
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1025
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 7 of 72
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`Page 22
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`Page 24
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`1 A. No.
`2 Q. Hundred-thousand cases?
`3 A. No.
`4 Q. Ten-thousand cases?
`5 A. No.
`6 Q. A thousand cases?
`7 A. No.
`8 Q. A hundred cases?
`9 A. I don't think so.
`10 Q. Fifty cases?
`11 A. I'm sorry?
`12 Q. Fifty cases?
`13 A. I don't know whether that number would be
`14 50, depending on how you count or not, so -- so I'm
`15 not sure.
`16 Q. So -- but it could be somewhere around 50,
`17 correct?
`18 A. Again, I don't have a count -- for
`19 example, there have been cases that -- it was an IPR
`20 on it, and there is a district case and there was an
`21 IPC case, or some combination thereof, and I'm not
`22 sure if you count that as one case or multiple
`23 cases. So, again, depending on how you count, it --
`24 it probably could be 50. I'm not sure.
`
`1 Q. Okay.
`2 Wouldn't you be aware if you were the
`3 subject of a -- a motion to disqualify?
`4 A. That's what I had thought for many years,
`5 but then some attorneys informed me that it is
`6 possible that there had been motions like that and I
`7 didn't know about it.
`8 Q. Any of the attorneys that are -- you're
`9 working with today for these IPRs?
`10 A. No. That was several years ago.
`11 Q. Do you recall when the first -- your first
`12 expert declaration was -- was used, either a -- a
`13 litigation or an IPR?
`14 MS. MERRILL: Objection. Form.
`15 THE WITNESS: I mean, if you're -- if
`16 you're asking me when did I provide an
`17 expert report in -- in the -- in the case,
`18 is that what you're asking?
`19 BY MR. BENCHELL:
`20 Q. Right. I'm -- I'm looking to see when you
`21 first started doing expert declarations for
`22 litigation or IPRs?
`23 A. I think the first one was probably in the
`24 2006/2007 timeframe, somewhere around there.
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`Page 23
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`1 Q. Okay.
`2 More than ten, certainly?
`3 A. Yes.
`4 Q. Okay.
`5 Have you ever been disqualified as an
`6 expert?
`7 A. No, I have not.
`8 Q. Have you ever been the subject of a motion
`9 to disqualify you?
`10 A. There was a motion to disqualify part of
`11 my testimony, but that portion was overruled and I
`12 went on and testified.
`13 Q. So only once you've been the subject of a
`14 motion to disqualify, is that what you're saying?
`15 A. That I know of. There may have been a
`16 second time. I just can't remember. It was along
`17 the similar lines where there was a marketing with
`18 the lawyers, and the Court allowed me to testify,
`19 but I'm not sure if that was a motion to disqualify
`20 or -- or some other motion.
`21 So, to my knowledge, that was the only
`22 time for sure. There may have been another time,
`23 and there may have been others that I'm not aware
`24 of.
`
`Page 25
`1 Q. Do you recall what -- what that was for?
`2 A. Yes, and I'm interpreting your question --
`3 the litigation to include the International Trade
`4 Commission, so there was a case at the ITC.
`5 Okay. And what was the technology?
`6 A. Wireless communications.
`7 Q. And, Doctor, I can guarantee you any of us
`8 who have done ITC litigation, that's -- that's hard
`9 core litigation, so I would absolutely include
`10 those.
`11 Okay.
`12 Well, let's -- let's turn to Page 2 of the
`13 584 declaration.
`14 A. (Witness complied.)
`15 Q. And, this, on the top of the page says,
`16 "Qualifications and Experience"; do you see that?
`17 A. Yes, I do.
`18 Q. Paragraph 6 says you have almost 40 years
`19 of experience in electrical engineering and computer
`20 science and in fixed and mobile communication
`21 networks; do you see that?
`22 A. Yes, I do.
`23 Q. What's a fixed -- fixed communication
`24 network?
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`7 (Pages 22 - 25)
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`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1025
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 8 of 72
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`Page 26
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`1 A. It a fixed as in traditional telephony.
`2 That's not mobile communications.
`3 Q. Like landlines, is that what you're
`4 saying, like a landline?
`5 A. It -- it includes that -- that. Right.
`6 Q. Yeah.
`7 A. And all the infrastructures that's hiding
`8 behind that. The ordinary users of landlines are
`9 not aware of its existence.
`10 Q. Have you ever designed a fixed
`11 communications network?
`12 A. Not one human being designs an entire
`13 network.
`14 Q. Okay.
`15 So that would mean that you've never
`16 designed a fixed communications network; is that
`17 correct?
`18 A. Well, once again, a fixed communications
`19 network is designed by large teams. So I have been
`20 a member of such teams but single-handedly, no, I
`21 have not, neither has anybody else in the world.
`22 Q. Have -- have you ever designed a mobile
`23 communications network?
`24 A. The answer is along those same lines.
`
`Page 27
`1 Those are -- designing such networks takes large
`2 teams, and I have not single-handedly designed such
`3 networks, but I have participated in doing my
`4 consulting, both in assisting teams in the design
`5 process, as well as training engineers to actually
`6 design the mobile communication networks literally
`7 around the world.
`8 Q. Well, I -- I appreciate that you've done
`9 training. I'm not asking about any training you've
`10 conducted. I'm simply asking about your experience
`11 in designing mobile communications networks.
`12 And I think you just testified that you
`13 had been on teams that had done that; was that
`14 correct?
`15 A. I -- I participated in teams whose job was
`16 to design mobile communications networks.
`17 Q. And what did you do as part of a team in
`18 designing a mobile communications network?
`19 A. It -- it varied across different
`20 assignments and -- and across different cases. So I
`21 was involved in the -- most aspects of designing the
`22 mobile communications network, from a simple to
`23 understand for lay people as a question of how to
`24 select and where to place Play Stations and
`
`Page 28
`1 corresponding antennas to how to tune the parameters
`2 that are used within those Play Stations'
`3 transmitters and receivers to have to identify
`4 issues that exist once the network is up and
`5 running, how to identify potential solutions to
`6 those issues.
`7 The problem comes with different
`8 approaches to solving the problem that has been
`9 properly diagnosed, assuming it has been properly
`10 diagnosed, and, if not, digging deeper into the
`11 diagnosis of how that network's behaving, what the
`12 issues are, how to grow the network. And I think
`13 that's just a number of examples.
`14 Q. Okay.
`15 Have you ever been involved with designing
`16 a -- a handheld device, a -- a cellular phone?
`17 A. Designing a handheld device, is that what
`18 you said?
`19 Q. That is what I said.
`20 A. Yeah. No, I have not been involved in
`21 designing the handset, but I have been involved in
`22 its operation as it interacts and communicates with
`23 the network.
`24 Q. And when you say "the network," you're
`
`Page 29
`
`1 talking about communicating with the bay station,
`2 correct?
`3 A. Communicating with the bay station and
`4 beyond.
`5 Q. Right. So your -- your focus in -- in the
`6 design of mobile networks has always been from the
`7 network side not the mobile device side, correct?
`8 A. No.
`9 Q. Well, you just told me -- well, why don't
`10 you tell me what you've done specifically with
`11 regard to mobile devices.
`12 A. Mobile devices are intended to be used to
`13 communicate with a network. As a result -- for a
`14 lack of a better word, I'm going to say both the
`15 network and the mobile device have to speak the same
`16 language; and, therefore, the parameters and the
`17 characteristics of how the mobile device operates is
`18 critical in executing the two-way communication
`19 between the device on the one hand and the network
`20 on the other hand.
`21 Q. Okay.
`22 But, again, you've never been involved
`23 with designing or -- or -- or working on mobile
`24 devices so that they can communicate with bay
`
`8 (Pages 26 - 29)
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Cradlepoint Exhibit 1025
`Cradlepoint v. Sisvel, IPR2021-00580
`Page 9 of 72
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`Page 30
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`Page 32
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`1 stations.
`2 You've always been working on the bay
`3 station side, correct?
`4 A. Like I said, no, that's not correct.
`5 Q. Oh. So -- so you have been involved with
`6 designing mobile devices, then, is that what you're
`7 saying?
`8 A. Through my work, I have been involved with
`9 the -- the teams that are responsible for -- the job
`10 was to build these mobile devices, cell phones
`11 sometimes we call them, Smart phones sometimes we
`12 call them. And, as such, I had an input into the --
`13 both the understanding and the operation of the
`14 mobile device; whereas, the design of the device
`15 itself of how the chips are organized, how the
`16 battery is built, et cetera, was not part of my
`17 design work, but how the mobile device communicates
`18 with the network was.
`19 Q. So which teams that build mobile devices
`20 have you worked with?
`21 A. I've consulted way back for a number of
`22 companies that were in the business of mobile
`23 devices, but I'm not sure how much of that I can
`24 actually get into without violating NDA agreements.
`
`Page 31
`1 So I think I would -- I would rather shy away from
`2 that and say I've consulted for some companies.
`3 Q. But you're not -- you're not willing at
`4 this time to tell us which companies those are?
`5 MS. MERRILL: Objection. Form.
`6 THE WITNESS: Like -- like I said,
`7 which companies those have been in the
`8 past, I may be violating Non-Disclosure
`9 Agreements. I'm not sure. I'd have to go
`10 and check those agreements from way back
`11 when. And to the