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`Page 1
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`_______________
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`_____________
`
`LIQUIDIA TECHNOLOGIES, INC.,
`
`Petitioner;
`
`-v-
`
`UNITED THERAPEUTICS CORPORATION,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`The Remote Deposition of CHRISTOPHER BUTLER,
`
` having been called by the Patent Owner for
`
` examination, taken pursuant to all applicable rules,
`
` conducted via Zoom videoconference, and commencing at
`
` the hour of 9:00 a.m. Pacific Time on the 10th day of
`
` March, 2022.
`
` Reported By Beth Radtke, RPR, CRR
`
` License No. 084-004561
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`
`888-391-3376
`
`IPR2021-00406
`United Therapeutics EX2095
`
`

`

`Page 2
`
`Page 4
`
`1 (Witness sworn.)
`2 MR. HOUSTON: Good morning, Mr. Butler. My
`3 name is Michael Houston, I'm an attorney with Foley &
`4 Lardner representing the patent owner in an IPR
`5 proceeding in front of the U.S. Patent Office, and
`6 I'll pause for a minute to give opposing counsel a
`7 chance to introduce themselves on the record if they
`8 would like.
`9 MS. KANNAPPAN: This is Deepa Kannappan from
`10 Cooley, LLP, on behalf of Liquidia Technologies.
`11 MR. HOUSTON: Great.
`12
`CHRISTOPHER BUTLER,
`13 having been first duly sworn, was examined and
`14 testified as follows:
`15 EXAMINATION
`16 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`17 Q. Could you start by just stating your full
`18 name and address for the record? And the address
`19 could either be your work address or your home
`20 address, whichever one you are comfortable with.
`21 A. Sure. My name is Christopher Scott Butler,
`22 and I work at the Internet Archive located at 300
`23 Funston Avenue in San Francisco, California, 94118.
`24 Q. Thank you.
`
`Page 3
`
`Page 5
`
`1 Mr. Butler, have you ever been deposed
`2 before?
`3
`A. Yes.
`4
`Q. About roughly how many times would you say
`5 you've been deposed?
`6 A. Approximately 30 to 35 times.
`7 Q. Okay. So you have sat through many
`8 depositions, so I don't really need to go into a lot
`9 of details about the ground rules, I presume. Of
`10 course if you have any questions, let me know. I'll
`11 just cover a few highlights very quickly.
`12 We are conducting this deposition remotely
`13 today. That means we have a court reporter sort of
`14 in this Zoom meeting who is trying to write down
`15 everything that everybody on the call says.
`16 Do you understand that?
`17 A. Yes.
`18 Q. And because she's trying to get everything
`19 down, one of the main sort of rules, if you will, is
`20 for us to try to not talk over each other or --
`21 including with opposing counsel, your counsel.
`22 So all I would ask is that if you can try to
`23 let me finish my question, let your counsel object if
`24 there is an objection to be made, and then you can
`2 (Pages 2 - 5)
`
`APPEARANCES
`
`1
`
`23
`
`6
`
` COOLEY, LLP
` By Ms. Deepa Kannappan
`4 1299 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
` Suite 700
`5 Washington, D.C. 20004-2400
` dkannappan@cooley.com
`(202)842-7800
`Appeared on behalf of the Petitioner;
`
`78
`
` FOLEY & LARDNER LLP
` By Mr. Michael R. Houston
`9 321 North Clark Street
` Suite 2800
`10 Chicago, Illinois 60654-5313
` mhouston@foley.com
`(312)832-4378
`Appeared on behalf of the Patent Owner.
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
`*****
`
`INDEX
`
`1
`
`23
`
`7
`
`89
`
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`
` WITNESS
`4 CHRISTOPHER BUTLER
` Examination By Mr. Houston 4
`5 Examination By Ms. Kannappan 33
`6
`
`PAGE
`
` EXHIBITS
`
` Exhibit 1087 Butler declaration 6
`
`*****
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`

`

`Page 6
`1 proceed with your answer, just to try to keep things
`2 clean so the court reporter can get them down.
`3 Do you understand that?
`4 A. Yes.
`5 Q. Are there any reasons, any medications you
`6 might be on, any illnesses you have, anything at all
`7 that you can think of that would prevent you from
`8 giving complete and full and accurate testimony
`9 today?
`10 A. No.
`11 Q. Okay, great. Thank you.
`12 So, Mr. Butler, I believe you should have in
`13 front of you -- well, let me back up.
`14 You prepared an affidavit that was submitted
`15 in this matter, and I believe you should have that
`16 affidavit in front of you, and I would like you to
`17 pull that up on your screen and confirm that this is
`18 indeed of affidavit that you prepared.
`19 Do you have what's been marked as
`20 Exhibit 1087 in front of you?
`21 A. Yes.
`22 Q. And it looks like your affidavit, the
`23 testimony covers two pages. On the second page, is
`24 that your signature?
`
`Page 8
`1 and make sure I have a good understanding of what we
`2 can ascertain from the URLs that we see, so I'm going
`3 to step through that very briefly.
`4 Let's just turn -- I'd like to use something
`5 as an example that we can talk about. So if you
`6 could please navigate to page 4 of your declaration.
`7 A. Okay.
`8 Q. And my understanding is that -- so on
`9 page 4, you see that there is a URL there that begins
`10 with the -- the root URL is for web.archive.org,
`11 correct?
`12 A. That's right.
`13 Q. And that's referring to the Internet
`14 Archive?
`15
`A. Yes. That's the URL for the Wayback
`16 Machine.
`17 Q. Okay, great.
`18 And then if I understand your declaration
`19 correctly, in that same URL, I see a string of
`20 numbers that begins with 20050207, and then it has
`21 some more numbers after that.
`22 Do you see that?
`23 A. Yes.
`24 Q. And so my understanding, based on your
`
`Page 7
`
`A. Yes.
`1
`Q. And then it contains a few exhibits. I
`2
`3 believe D, E, and F that are also a part of this
`4 affidavit; is that correct?
`5 A. That's right.
`6 Q. Okay, great.
`7 As I understand it, Mr. Butler, the purpose
`8 of this affidavit was essentially to authenticate a
`9 number of screenshots or archived web pages, if you
`10 will, that are found within the database of the
`11 Internet Archive. Is that more or less an accurate
`12 description?
`13 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`14 BY THE WITNESS:
`15 A. This affidavit's purpose is to authenticate
`16 records of archived web pages from the Wayback
`17 Machine, our web archive service.
`18 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`19 Q. Okay, great. And I see that you've very
`20 helpfully presented a description in your affidavit
`21 of how the URLs correspond to the screenshots that we
`22 see here.
`23 I would just like to cover that in my own
`24 words a little bit to make sure the record's clear
`
`Page 9
`1 affidavit, is that what that string of numbers that I
`2 just recited, what it refers to, is that this is
`3 capturing a screenshot of the web page as it existed
`4 as of February 7, 2005 at the website that then is
`5 shown towards the end of this URL; is that correct?
`6 A. The 14 digit number in the extended Wayback
`7 Machine URL to which you refer is the Internet
`8 Archive's timestamp that denotes the date of
`9 preservation of the archived record, and as you
`10 mentioned, the date that this particular timestamp
`11 denotes is February 7, 2005.
`12 Q. And the -- and the web page that was
`13 captured as of that date stamp and at the URL that
`14 appears there on page 4 is what we see on page 5 of
`15 your declaration?
`16 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`17 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`18 Q. Is that correct?
`19 A. The extended URL on page 4 is the extended
`20 URL for the record that is screen-shotted and
`21 depicted on page 5.
`22 Q. Okay. And just so I have a clean record,
`23 I'm just going to step through these other few ones.
`24 So if you could turn and look at pages 6 and
`3 (Pages 6 - 9)
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`Page 10
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`Page 12
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`1 7 of your affidavit, please.
`2 A. Okay.
`3 Q. So that's a screenshot -- on page 7 is a
`4 screenshot of the web page that was captured by the
`5 Internet Archive's procedures as of February 12,
`6 2005, correct?
`7 A. The screenshot on page 7 is of an archived
`8 web page. The time of capture for which the Internet
`9 Archive is recorded is February 12, 2005 for an
`10 original URL nebu-tec.de/uk/home.html.
`11 Q. And, Mr. Butler, I'm not trying to change
`12 your words; I'm sorry it's taking me a little time to
`13 use the exact terminology that you use. So when I
`14 ask my questions, please accept my apologize if I
`15 don't capture your exact language, but feel free to
`16 continue using your preferred language. I'm not
`17 trying to change that, unless I'm very clear about
`18 that. So I apologize if I'm not saying it quite the
`19 way you would. So thank you for being precise.
`20 Let's just real quick go through these other
`21 two or three. So if we turn to pages 8 and 9.
`22 A. Okay.
`23 Q. What's seen on page 9 is corresponding to a
`24 capture that occurred again on February 12th -- I'm
`
`Page 11
`
`1 sorry, actually -- did I read that right? Yes,
`2 February 12, 2005, correct?
`3 A. The screenshot on page 9 has a capture date
`4 in the Internet Archive's records of February 12,
`5 2005.
`6 Q. And similarly, if we look at pages 10 and 11
`7 of your declaration, that screenshot corresponds to a
`8 capture that occurred on February 25, 2005; is that
`9 right?
`10 A. The screenshot on page 11 corresponds to an
`11 archive date of February 25, 2005.
`12 Q. And then the last one is the document that
`13 appears in Exhibit E.
`14 Now Exhibit E doesn't have the same URL sort
`15 of -- in the same place of your declaration, but I
`16 believe you address that in paragraph 7 of your
`17 declaration.
`18 So I just want to confirm, so the document
`19 that we see in your Exhibit E is a capture of the
`20 designated web page as of June -- I'm sorry, July 18,
`21 2004; is that correct?
`22 A. The capture in my Exhibit E has a
`23 corresponding archive date of July 18, 2004.
`24 Q. Okay, thank you.
`
`1 I want to try to understand a little bit
`2 about what -- how the Internet Archive works and what
`3 these dates mean in this context.
`4 So we have certain dates as we've just
`5 walked through that represent the capture date
`6 corresponding to those web pages. And I guess let me
`7 start it this way, if I put it kind of in my own
`8 words, and let me know if I understand this
`9 correctly.
`10 If I had a time machine, and I could go back
`11 in time to that exact time that's listed in each one
`12 of these URLs, so for this last one to use it as an
`13 example, we said July 18, 2004, and I believe there's
`14 even the -- the last six digits represent an even
`15 more precise time capture, like the time of day that
`16 the web page was captured.
`17 If I had a time machine and I could go back
`18 in time to that exact day and time, then presumably
`19 -- and I clicked on that link, then presumably,
`20 that's the page that was present at that time; is
`21 that correct?
`22 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`23 BY THE WITNESS:
`24 A. What I can say is that I have a very high
`
`Page 13
`
`1 level of trust in the electronic processes that
`2 preserve these records to issue a standard request
`3 for a web file associated with a specific URL,
`4 receive a file in response to that standard request
`5 from a web server, save that file, and also note the
`6 time at which that transfer occurred, as well as the
`7 URL associated with that transfer and file, and then
`8 to incorporate that information into the Wayback
`9 Machine service that lets you access and view the
`10 records.
`11 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`12 Q. Okay, thank you for that.
`13 I guess I was just trying to -- trying to
`14 make sure I understand in maybe it would be my own
`15 layman's terms.
`16 But in general, the point here is to say
`17 that each one of these should correspond to the web
`18 page that existed and was captured at the day and
`19 time that we see in these URLs; that's all I was
`20 trying to understand. And I appreciate that you
`21 weren't there at the time, you're just relying on the
`22 processes of the Internet Archive.
`23 But in general, is that the takeaway that we
`24 should get from these URLs and the date stamps?
`4 (Pages 10 - 13)
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`Page 14
`
`1 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`2 BY THE WITNESS:
`3 A. The underlying files comprised of HTML code
`4 or other media types like images, I have a very high
`5 level of trust in the accuracy of the timestamps and
`6 the original URLs in association with those discrete
`7 files and the code within those files.
`8 And so apart from that, there is -- are
`9 processes of a browser's putting the files together
`10 for display, rendering them for display, and those
`11 aspects of the page, those aspects of the process can
`12 combine elements in different ways. And so I'm
`13 coming back to the integrity of the relationship of
`14 the timestamp and the URL with the discrete files,
`15 and that is what I have a very high level of trust
`16 in.
`17 Q. Okay, thank you.
`18 Let me ask a slightly different question,
`19 and again, I'll focus on the document that's your
`20 Exhibit E and your description of it in paragraph 7
`21 of your declaration.
`22 As we mentioned, the month, day, and year
`23 associated with that was July 18, 2004. My question
`24 would be, does the document -- does the information
`
`Page 15
`
`1 you've presented here tell us anything about what
`2 existed at that URL, say the day after this date, or
`3 the day before this date?
`4 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`5 BY THE WITNESS:
`6 A. I don't have any specific records of -- that
`7 I have accessed before the -- for the date before or
`8 the date after that specific date.
`9 One might decide to draw a conclusion about
`10 the likelihood that that file may have remained up
`11 for more than one day. That would be -- that would
`12 be up to the particular observer who is trying to
`13 make that assessment.
`14 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`15 Q. Maybe I could ask it this way: The way that
`16 the Internet Archive's archiving process works, does
`17 it go and try to capture the content from a given URL
`18 when it senses or otherwise detects a change in that
`19 content?
`20 A. There can be systems that, for specific
`21 URLs, do their best to attempt when changes are made
`22 and update, create new captures whenever a change is
`23 indicated. That is not performed across all URLs and
`24 all files which are archived in the Wayback Machine.
`
`Page 16
`1 Q. As you sit here today, do you know if that
`2 process or system for sensing and then capturing
`3 changes was in place for any of the particular pages
`4 that appear in your declaration?
`5 A. No, I do not.
`6 Q. So again, using this Exhibit E as an
`7 example, the fact that the capture date here was
`8 July 18, 2004, that doesn't automatically suggest
`9 that something at that URL changed that day or the
`10 day before or the week before; in other words, we
`11 can't really read anything into that capture date
`12 about there having been changes to that URL around
`13 that time?
`14 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection --
`15 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`16 Q. Is that correct?
`17 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`18 BY THE WITNESS:
`19 A. That's correct.
`20 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`21 Q. And similarly, it's at least possible that
`22 the content might have changed a day later or a week
`23 later or a month later, and the Internet Archive
`24 might not immediately capture such changes; is that
`Page 17
`
`1 also correct?
`2 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`3 BY THE WITNESS:
`4 A. That is possible.
`5 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`6 Q. Is it fair to say that your declaration
`7 addresses these five URLs, that those were provided
`8 to you by counsel? The URLs were provided to you by
`9 counsel, and so you were simply authenticating the
`10 web pages associated with those URLs, or did you do
`11 your own investigation to come up with these for some
`12 reason?
`13 A. I don't recall with complete certainty, but
`14 I believe at least some of the URLs were provided to
`15 me, and I may have -- I may have obtained some of the
`16 URLs in the course of accessing and making --
`17 accessing the archives and making the screenshots.
`18 Q. Do you have any recollection of which URLs
`19 were provided to you by counsel?
`20 A. I am about 90 percent confident that, at a
`21 minimum, the first URL was provided, the first URL --
`22 Q. That's the one --
`23 A. -- under Exhibit D, pages 4 and 5.
`24 Q. Thank you.
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`Page 18
`1 A. And the URL for Exhibit E were provided by
`2 counsel.
`3 Q. So do you have any recollection then for how
`4 the URL that appears on page 6 came to your attention
`5 or came to be, or came to be included in your
`6 declaration?
`7 A. If I recall correctly, I -- I obtained that
`8 URL by using my browser to obtain the URL for a file
`9 within a frame on the preceding page.
`10 Q. So if I compare the file or the screenshots
`11 that I see on pages 5 and 7, are you saying that the
`12 one that appears on page 7 is sort of a subset of
`13 what I see on page 5, and so that's the URL that's on
`14 page 6 is corresponding to that subset of what's
`15 found on page 5? Is that accurate?
`16 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`17 BY THE WITNESS:
`18 A. The page on page 7 is embedded in the page
`19 on page 5.
`20 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`21 Q. Okay. Let's look at pages 8 and 10. Was
`22 the URL on page 8 provided by counsel, or is that
`23 another one that you located via your browser?
`24 A. I don't specifically recall for that URL if
`
`Page 19
`
`1 this is one that I located, or if it was provided by
`2 counsel.
`3 Q. As I compare what I see on page 9 and
`4 page 11, it would appear to me I can kind of see some
`5 analogy that it looks like what I see on page 11 is
`6 perhaps a subset or was perhaps embedded within what
`7 I see on page 9. Would you agree with that?
`8 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`9 BY THE WITNESS:
`10 A. I agree that what is on page 11 is embedded
`11 on page 9.
`12 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`13 Q. But does that -- does that help refresh your
`14 recollection regarding the URL on page 8 and what we
`15 see on page 9 as to whether that's something you
`16 found on your browser versus that being something
`17 that was provided by counsel?
`18 A. I'm just not certain.
`19 Q. Okay. If I were to consider what I see on
`20 pages five and seven collectively -- well, strike
`21 that.
`22 If we look at what we see on page 7 of your
`23 declaration, do you recall or know whether that has
`24 any particular relationship to what we see on page 9?
`
`Page 20
`1 And if it would help, I could give you an example of
`2 what I'm getting at is are you representing that what
`3 I see on page 9 is somehow a link or connected to
`4 what I see on page 7?
`5 A. I was able to navigate to the page on page 9
`6 by clicking a link on page 7, specifically the link
`7 with the text "Support."
`8 Q. Okay. So presumably -- and that was done
`9 within the Internet Archive website?
`10 A. Yes.
`11 Q. So if I go to the URL that's shown on page 6
`12 of your declaration, I should see the screen that's
`13 shown on page 7, correct?
`14 A. Yes.
`15 Q. And then if I click on that button that I
`16 see on page 7 that says "Support" that should pull up
`17 what I see on page 9?
`18 A. Yes, that's what I observed when I used the
`19 Wayback Machine and when I made these screenshots.
`20 Q. And what about going from page 9 to page 11?
`21 Was that again something where you were able to click
`22 on something on page 9 to then see what you see on
`23 page 11?
`24 A. There's not a link on the page that one
`
`Page 21
`1 clicks; however, depending upon the functionality of
`2 the web browser that the record is being viewed in,
`3 there are various ways to obtain the URL for an
`4 embedded frame within a page that one is viewing.
`5 So I used my browser to -- when I was
`6 viewing page 9, I used my web browser to obtain the
`7 URL for the middle frame and load that into a new tab
`8 in my browser to generate, to display page 11.
`9 Q. In looking at the URLs, at this point in
`10 time I'm comparing the URL that I see on page 10
`11 that's associated with the screenshot shown on
`12 page 11 with the URL and screenshot that I see on
`13 pages 6 and 7.
`14 In the URLs, I see that the dates are
`15 different; so page 6's date is February 12, 2005,
`16 page 9's URL is February 25, 2005.
`17 Can you make any representation about what
`18 I'm seeing on page 11 actually existed in that form
`19 as of the date that's associated with the URL on
`20 page 6?
`21 A. Sure. I just want to correct one thing. I
`22 think you referenced a URL on page 9 in your
`23 question.
`24 Q. I apologize.
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`Page 22
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`Page 24
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`1 A. I think you were referring to the URL on
`2 page 10 when you did that.
`3 Q. I did mean to do that. I was comparing
`4 page 10 with page 6. Thank you for correcting me.
`5 A. Sure.
`6 Yes, so there are different dates for these
`7 URL captures in some instances.
`8 Q. And so -- and I believe you discussed this
`9 towards the bottom your paragraph 5 of your
`10 declaration, and you're certainly welcome to go and
`11 re-review that if you would like.
`12 My question would be is, when I see URLs
`13 with different dates in them, even if I can get from
`14 one to the other on the Wayback Machine by clicking
`15 links, that's actually -- it's not correct to assume
`16 that that means I could get to each one of these
`17 pages at any given single point in time, presuming
`18 that their dates don't match; is that a fair
`19 statement?
`20 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`21 BY THE WITNESS:
`22 A. I would say that all of these files were not
`23 archived on the same date, and hence, it is
`24 information combined from different dates and time
`
`1 was the link that was clicked to load the PDF file
`2 for Exhibit E.
`3 Q. And how do you know that?
`4 A. I recall clicking that, and I also accessed
`5 these pages and retraced my steps yesterday.
`6 Q. Let's look at what's on page 11 again.
`7 I see a lot of -- I don't know what to call
`8 them -- boxes that have the little image that -- I'm
`9 not sure, probably you could tell me better what
`10 those represent.
`11 I see, I don't know, roughly a dozen boxes
`12 there that have little sub-boxes within them with the
`13 little green coloring.
`14 A. Yes.
`15 Q. Do you have an understanding of what that's
`16 representing?
`17 A. Yes. That is the default image that is
`18 displayed where there is a link for an image file
`19 indicated in the page's code; however, that image
`20 file was not able to be served at the time that the
`21 page was loaded, and therefore, a placeholder broken
`22 image picture is displayed in its place.
`23 Q. So as we sit here today, we don't really
`24 know what those images showed at that time, as of the
`
`Page 23
`
`Page 25
`
`1 and I do not have -- I don't have any specific
`2 records of files for other dates and time, other than
`3 that which are before me in this exhibit right now.
`4 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`5 Q. I believe you said that the URL, the
`6 document in your Exhibit E, your recollection was
`7 that that was another one that was provided to you by
`8 counsel; is that right?
`9 A. Yes.
`10 Q. So are you -- does your declaration make any
`11 representation that Exhibit E is somehow tied to one
`12 of the other web pages or screenshots that we see in
`13 your Exhibit D?
`14 A. I don't believe it's stated in the
`15 declaration; however, I can state now that Exhibit E,
`16 the file, the PDF file for Exhibit E, is obtained by
`17 clicking a link on the web page displayed on page 11
`18 of Exhibit D.
`19 Q. Okay. Could you turn to that page 11?
`20 A. Yes.
`21 Q. Can you tell me what link you are referring
`22 to?
`23 A. Yes. The first image underneath the text
`24 "Instruction Guide OPTINEB-ir Artificial Respiration"
`
`1 date of capture in 2005 for the screenshot on
`2 page 11, correct?
`3 A. Correct.
`4 Q. Are each one of these boxes shown on page 11
`5 active links? If we click on each one of them, do we
`6 see something different?
`7 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`8 MR. HOUSTON: Let me -- let me clarify,
`9 Mr. Butler.
`10 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`11 Q. If I go to this URL that you have on
`12 page 10, so I'm within the Wayback Machine website,
`13 if I go to that URL and I pull up the screenshot I
`14 see on page 11, can I go click on each one of those
`15 boxes and pull up something?
`16 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`17 BY THE WITNESS:
`18 A. The only links that I recall specifically
`19 clicking on were the two links under the Artificial
`20 Respiration header. Those both returned -- those
`21 both pointed to different URLs.
`22 I did not click on or check the other broken
`23 image icons on the page to specifically check them.
`24 One could easily load this page and check it.
`7 (Pages 22 - 25)
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`Page 26
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`1 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`2 Q. And why did you only click those first two?
`3 Why did you only check those?
`4 A. I clicked the first link to load the page
`5 for Exhibit E. I clicked the second link, I believe,
`6 on accident as I was trying to click the first link.
`7 Q. So were you told by counsel that it was that
`8 first link that corresponded to the document in
`9 Exhibit E?
`10 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form, to the
`11 extent it calls for privilege.
`12 You can answer, Mr. Butler.
`13 BY THE WITNESS:
`14 A. I don't specifically recall if counsel
`15 provided that information or if I needed to determine
`16 that for myself when I was -- when I was making this
`17 exhibit.
`18 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`19 Q. Yeah, so that gets kind of to my question.
`20 How did you -- I'm trying to understand how
`21 you knew to click on the first box on the website at
`22 page 11 in order to get the document that's your
`23 Exhibit E. I mean, did you just do that by chance?
`24 A. I had the URL for Exhibit E provided by
`
`1 questions.
`2 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`3 Q. I want to revisit the date issue that we
`4 discussed previously.
`5 I believe we established that the page that
`6 we've been talking about that we see on page 11
`7 that's associated with the URL on page 10, which has
`8 a date of February 25, 2005, correct? That's when it
`9 was archived?
`10 A. The timestamp for that URL denotes
`11 February 25, 2005 as the archive date.
`12 Q. And the archive date for what's seen in
`13 Exhibit E is July 18, 2004, correct?
`14 A. That's right.
`15 Q. So as you sit here today, you cannot say
`16 that, if I were looking at the web page seen in
`17 page 11 of your declaration as of that date,
`18 February 25, 2005, and I clicked on that first box,
`19 that I would necessarily see or that I would
`20 necessarily reach the document that we see in
`21 Exhibit E from an earlier date, can you?
`22 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`23 BY THE WITNESS:
`24 A. What I can say is that one could consult the
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`Page 29
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`1 counsel, so it is possible that I -- that I hovered
`2 over the links until I saw the URL that corresponded
`3 to Exhibit E.
`4 It's also possible that I looked in the HTML
`5 source to determine where the link for Exhibit E was
`6 on page 11.
`7 Q. One second.
`8 I want to revisit something you said
`9 earlier. I believe, again, if we are looking at the
`10 screenshot from page 11, I believe you said you
`11 clicked on the first two boxes on the left-hand side?
`12 A. Correct.
`13 Q. And they both pulled up something?
`14 A. My recollection is that the first link
`15 pulled up the file for Exhibit E and the second link
`16 pulled up a page indicating that there was not an
`17 archive for the corresponding URL found in the
`18 Wayback Machine.
`19 MR. HOUSTON: Okay. Deepa, let's take a
`20 short break and I'll wrap up.
`21 MS. KANNAPPAN: Okay.
`22 MR. HOUSTON: Just five minutes.
`23 (A short break was taken.)
`24 MR. HOUSTON: Mr. Butler, just a couple more
`
`1 code of the file associated with the screenshot
`2 page 11, locate the link to the PDF, and see that
`3 there is a reference to the URL associated with that
`4 PDF, and then for a subsequent date and time, we have
`5 a record for the file associated with that PDF.
`6 But we do not have -- I am not aware of
`7 archives of the PDF file associated with the URL in
`8 between those two points in time that we could
`9 consult.
`10 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`11 Q. So then, again, if I could go back in time
`12 to February 25, 2005 and pull up the web page that we
`13 see on page 11, and I click on the box that's the top
`14 left box, we can't say that I would pull up and see
`15 the document that's shown in Exhibit E, correct?
`16 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`17 BY THE WITNESS:
`18 A. I do not know for certain that clicking the
`19 link you described would pull up the file in
`20 Exhibit E.
`21 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`22 Q. And sort of a corollary question: If I
`23 could go back to July 18, 2004 and see what I see in
`24 Exhibit E, I don't know that I could find that
`8 (Pages 26 - 29)
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`Page 30
`1 document by clicking a link such as the one that we
`2 have talked about on page 11 from that web page,
`3 correct?
`4 MS. KANNAPPAN: Objection to form.
`5 BY THE WITNESS:
`6 A. I'm sorry, would you repeat the question
`7 again, please?
`8 BY MR. HOUSTON:
`9 Q. Yeah, sure.
`10 So now I want to do the opposite scenario.
`11 Let's say I could go back in time to July -- excuse
`12 me -- the date that's associated with Exhibit E,
`13 July 18, 2004. If I could go back to July 18, 2004,
`14 can you say for certain that I would be able to reach
`15 that document by going to the page that we see on
`16 page 11 of your declaration and clicking that link
`17 that you said you clicked?
`18 A. I cannot say for certain. What one might
`19 consider doing if they wanted to have more
`20 information about that is to see if the Wayback
`21 Machine has an archive for the file, for the URL
`22 associated with page 10 and page 11 that is -- that
`23 is -- I'm forgetting if it's going forward or going
`24 backwards here.
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`Page 32
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`1 Exhibit E.
`2 MR. HOUSTON: Okay. Thank you so much for
`3 your time today, Mr. Butler. I don't have any
`4 further questions.
`5 I will pass you over to your counsel to see
`6 if they have any follow-up. Thank you.
`7 MS. KANNAPPAN: Just one clarification on
`8 the record.
`9 Mike, you don't plan to ask about
`10 Exhibit 1