UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
`APPLE INC.,
`:
`Petitioner,
`:
`: Case No. IPR2021-00381
`v.
`:
`KOSS CORPORATION,
`: U.S. Patent No. 10,491,982
`Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
`
`REMOTE DEPOSITION of JEREMY COOPERSTOCK, Ph.D.
`Monday, September 13, 2021
`9:28 a.m. CST
`
`Job No.: 394208
`Pages: 1 - 109
`Reported By: Michelle M. Yohler, CSR, RMR, CRR
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`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
`APPLE INC.,
`:
`Petitioner,
`:
`: Case No. IPR2021-00381
`v.
`:
`KOSS CORPORATION,
`: U.S. Patent No. 10,491,982
`Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
`
`REMOTE DEPOSITION of JEREMY COOPERSTOCK, Ph.D.
`Monday, September 13, 2021
`9:28 a.m. CST
`
`Job No.: 394208
`Pages: 1 - 109
`Reported By: Michelle M. Yohler, CSR, RMR, CRR
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D.
`Conducted on September 13, 2021
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`2
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`The deposition of JEREMY COOPERSTOCK, Ph.D.,
`held remotely pursuant to notice before
`Michelle M. Yohler, CSR, RMR, CRR, a certified
`shorthand reporter, CSR No. 84-4531.
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`Conducted on September 13, 2021
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`3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
` ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
` MS. JENNIE HARTJES
` GOLDMAN ISMAIL TOMASELLI BRENNAN & BAUM LLP
` 200 South Wacker Drive, 22nd Floor
` Chicago, Illinois 60606
` 312.681.6000
` jhartjes@goldmanismail.com
`-AND-
` MS. PARVIN GHANE
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` 111 Congress Avenue, Suite 810
` Austin, Texas 78701
` 512.472.5070
` ghane@fr.com
`
` (Continued)
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`4
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`A P P E A R A N C E S C O N T I N U E D
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
`MR. MARK G. KNEDEISEN
`MS. LAUREN MURRAY
`K & L GATES LLP
`210 Sixth Avenue
`Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15222-2613
`412.355.6500
`mark.knedeisen@klgates.com
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`Mr. Adam Schuman, Technician
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`5
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` E X A M I N A T I O N S
`
`WITNESS PAGE
`JEREMY COOPERSTOCK, PH.D.
` By Mr. Knedeisen......................... 6
`
` E X H I B I T S
` (Retained by counsel.)
`EXHIBITS PAGE
`No. 1001 '982 Patent....................... 12
`No. 1003 Declaration of Jeremy
` Cooperstock....................... 8
`No. 1004 Rosener Patent.................... 34
`No. 1005 Hankey Patent..................... 65
`No. 1006 Dyer Patent....................... 74
`No. 1010 Paulson Patent.................... 78
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`6
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`P R O C E E D I N G S
`
`(Technician read-on.)
`*** *** ***
`(WHEREUPON, the witness was duly sworn.)
`JEREMY COOPERSTOCK, Ph.D.,
`called as a witness herein, having been first duly
`sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
`EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. KNEDEISEN:
`Q Good morning, Dr. Cooperstock. My name is
`Mark Knedeisen. How are you?
`A Very well. Good morning, Mr. Knedeisen.
`Q We met via Zoom depositions before,
`correct -- or at least one, correct?
`A One I believe.
`Q So I know you've been deposed before. If
`there's ever a time you don't understand my
`question or cannot hear my question, can you let
`me know. I'll reask it or rephrase it.
`Is that okay?
`A Sure.
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`7
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` Q Is there anything that prevents you from
`testifying truthfully today?
` A No.
` Q Did you prepare for today's deposition?
` A I did.
` Q And how did you prepare for today's
`deposition?
` A I reviewed my declaration. I skimmed over
`several of the prior art references. And I had a
`discussion with several attorneys -- two
`discussions with several of the attorneys last
`week.
` Q And who were the attorneys you spoke with
`last week?
` A So one was Parvin Ghane of Fish &
`Richardson. The second was Jennie Hartjes of
`Goldman Ismail and a long list of other partners,
`and a third was Michael Pieja who joined briefly,
`also of Goldman Ismail.
` Q I believe you said there were two calls.
`Do you know when the first call was held?
` A Wednesday of last week.
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` Q And who was on that call; do you recall?
` A The first two that I mentioned, Parvin and
`Jennie.
` Q And when was the second call?
` A Friday.
` Q And who was on that call?
` A The three lawyers that I mentioned.
` Q Why don't -- do you have the exhibit Apple
`1003? I believe the court reporter can bring that
`up so we can see it -- not the court reporter, the
`technician.
` THE TECHNICIAN: Stand by.
` (WHEREUPON, Apple Exhibit No. 1003 was
`presented to the witness.)
`BY MR. KNEDEISEN:
` Q Dr. Cooperstock, do you recognize
`Exhibit 1003?
` A I do.
` Q And what is Exhibit 1003?
` A That is my declaration.
` Q In this matter, correct?
` A Yes, in this matter.
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`9
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` Q For the Patent 10,491,982, correct?
` A That is correct.
` Q And if you turn, I believe, to Page 115.
` A 115 page number or of the PDF?
` Q I believe it's Page -- well, I guess it's
`118 of the PDF.
` That's your signature on Page 115 of the
`document and Page 118 of the PDF, correct?
` A That is.
` Q And you signed this on December 31, 2020,
`correct?
` A Correct.
` Q Do you know how long it took you to
`prepare Exhibit 1003?
` A I don't recall.
` Q If you turn to Paragraph 5 of your
`declaration, which is Page 1 of -- well, it's
`numbered Page 1. It's probably Page 3 or 4 of the
`PDF.
` Do you see the second sentence says you're
`being compensated for your work on an hourly
`basis?
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` A Yes.
` Q Are you being compensated for your work on
`an hourly basis?
` A I am.
` Q And is there a rate per hour you're being
`paid?
` A Yes.
` Q What is that rate?
` A $450.
` Q Turn to Paragraph 8, which I believe is on
`the next page. It says you're -- you're at McGill
`University, correct, presently?
` A I am -- well, presently I'm at my home.
` Q That's a -- why don't I ask you this
`question now: Is there anybody in the room with
`you?
` A Nope.
` Q How long have you been at McGill
`University?
` A Since the late of 1997.
` Q And when did you get your Ph.D.?
` A 1996.
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` Q So did you work anywhere between getting
`your Ph.D. and McGill University?
` A Yes, I did.
` Q Where did you work between getting your
`Ph.D. and McGill?
` A I was at the Sony Computer Science Lab in
`Tokyo, Japan.
` Q For how long?
` A Approximately one year.
` Q And then you transitioned to McGill
`University, correct?
` A Correct.
` Q Why did you transition to McGill
`University?
` A I was interested in an academic position
`as a professor and was hoping to return to Canada.
` Q And you've been at McGill pretty much
`consistently or continuously since 1997?
` A With the exception of my sabbatical years,
`yes.
` Q Right. Okay. If you turn to Paragraph 3
`of your declaration, which is on Page 1, do you
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`12
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`see the first sentence says, "I have been asked by
`petitioner's counsel to consider whether certain
`references teach or suggest the features recited
`in Claims 1 to 5 and 14 to 20 of the '982 patent"?
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q And just for the record, Exhibit 1001 --
` MR. KNEDEISEN: Could the technician bring
`that up.
` THE TECHNICIAN: Stand by.
` (WHEREUPON, Apple Exhibit No. 1001 was
`presented to the witness.)
`BY MR. KNEDEISEN:
` Q That's the '982 patent, correct?
` A Yes, it is.
` Q So sorry to go back to Paragraph 3 of your
`declaration. Who asked you to consider whether
`certain references teach or suggest features
`recited in Claims 1 to 5 and 14 to 20 of the '982
`patent?
` A I don't recall which attorney it was at
`Fish & Richardson, but it was somebody from the
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`13
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`firm.
` Q Do you recall when they asked you?
` A I believe it would have been late last
`year.
` Q If you could turn to Paragraph 11 of your
`declaration. I'm looking at the third line --
`well, I guess it's the end of the second line and
`third line. First IEEE 802.15 Wi-Fi and IEEE
`802.15 Bluetooth.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Are you familiar with those protocols?
` A I am.
` Q Can you describe what they are.
` A They're --
` MS. HARTJES: Vague.
`BY THE WITNESS:
` A They're wireless communication protocols.
`BY MR. KNEDEISEN:
` Q So can you describe the IEEE 802.11
`communication protocol.
` A The 80211 -- or 802.11 protocol is the
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`14
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`wireless communication that's often referred to as
`Wi-Fi, otherwise more generally as WLAN.
` Q And are there differences between the
`802.11 and the 802.15 protocols?
` MS. HARTJES: Objection, vague.
`BY THE WITNESS:
` A Well, of course they're different. That's
`why they have different numbers associated with
`them.
`BY MR. KNEDEISEN:
` Q What are some of the differences?
` A There are differences in terms of the
`transmission range, the data rates supported, the
`formatting of the packets that are involved, the
`payload structure, the security mechanisms.
` Q So you mentioned transmission range. Is
`it correct that the Wi-Fi standard generally has a
`greater transmission range than Bluetooth?
` A I don't believe I've discussed details of
`transmission range in my report, so this is
`something that actually gets into gray area
`because there are, you know, all sorts of
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`15
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`different factors that can determine how far
`either protocol can transmit.
` Q By "transmission range," you're referring
`to how far they can transmit distance-wise?
` A Usefully, yes.
` Q You also mentioned data rates supported.
`Does one of the standards support a higher data
`rate than the other?
` A Again, this is not something that I've
`dealt with in my report, and I -- the protocols
`keep evolving, so I'm not even sure at this point
`or certainly as of the critical date what the
`respective data rate limits were.
` Q Could you turn to Paragraph 13 of your
`declaration -- I'm sorry, Paragraph 14.
` Paragraph 14 says you reviewed several
`references, correct?
` A Yes. And perhaps this would be an
`appropriate point for me to interrupt and note
`that there are several errata that I noted as I
`was going through the declaration. One of them
`specific to this paragraph.
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` Q Okay. What's the errata here?
` A So with respect to this paragraph,
`reference Apple 1020 was not listed. That's the
`Haupt reference or the certified translation of
`Haupt.
` Q All right. Why don't you go through the
`other -- I believe you mentioned other errata; is
`that correct?
` A Yes. So --
` Q Another errata in your report.
` A Yes. So Paragraph 25 of my report. This
`was something that we identified in the previous
`deposition as well. There's an error in the
`original patent from Koss that swaps the labeling
`of the earphone and the data source in terms of
`the access point numbers that are identified.
` And my declaration simply repeats the
`error that's in the original. So if you refer to
`the figure above Paragraph 25, the earphone
`communicates with access point 32B in the figure,
`not 32A.
` Q So are you -- is there another errata in
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`the report you want to identify?
` A Sure. So Paragraph 52, the title above
`that begins "Introducing Dyer," but the master
`level or, I guess, the letter level section B
`refers to the Rosener-Hankey-Huddart combination.
`It should actually be with Dyer, not with Huddart
`at that point.
` Q Okay.
` A Paragraph 60.
` Q All right.
` A Four lines from the bottom, the citation
`Apple 1006, 3 should actually be Apple 1020, 3.
`That's the reference to Haupt.
` Q Okay.
` A Paragraph 68, second line, should be
`referring to server 23, not 22.
` Q All right.
` A Above Paragraph -- sorry, below
`Paragraph -- well, sorry, above Paragraph 99,
`there's an annotated Figure 5 from Apple 1004.
`The red rectangles shown in that figure should be
`confined to the earbud portion, but they've been
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`drawn as extending into the elbow. So the
`rectangles are about twice as wide as they should
`be.
` Q Oh, this is above Paragraph 99?
` A Above 99.
` Q All right. I understand.
` Anything else?
` A Just to -- for reference, it should be
`consistent with the figure that's shown above
`Paragraph 116 in terms of the size of the
`rectangle -- the red rectangle.
` Q Okay.
` A And then in Paragraph 134, the first line,
`"RF transmitter portion," that should be 902, not
`904.
` And element 912 is actually the D/A
`converter, not the A/D. So if we're referring to
`the transmitter portion, then we should be dealing
`with 902 and the associated D/A converter 912 and
`A/D converter 910.
` So those are reversed.
` Q Okay.
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` A So similar to the question I had for you
`when we were talking about page numbers in the
`PDF, Paragraph 144 makes a reference to Haupt's
`Apple 1020, 10, but that's actually the page of
`the PDF, not the page number in the document. So
`that should be Page 9 for consistency with later
`references.
` Q All right.
` A And in that same paragraph, there's a typo
`where it says -- this is in the penultimate line,
`"Both stream in real-time" -- where is it? Sorry.
`Is that up a line? Let me just reread the
`paragraph.
` Yes, so that should read "Receive a stream
`in real-time and transmit."
` Q So you would put in the words "receive a"
`between "both" and "stream"?
` A Correct.
` Q Got it.
` A And then Paragraph 160.
` Q Okay.
` A The third line where it says at the end,
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`"Incorporated a 'wireless' battery" should be, "A
`wirelessly rechargeable battery."
` Q Okay.
` A And the last erratum is Paragraph 166.
`The first line refers to Section VII.D.2. That
`should be VII.E.2 and that same reference is
`repeated -- where is that?
` That's funny. I thought they were two
`occurrences; I'm only seeing one.
` Q Where are you looking?
` A At the top of Paragraph 166 -- oh, I see.
`It appears at the bottom of 167 as well. That's
`why I missed it. There was a change of paragraph
`number. So those two references should be changed
`to VII.E.2.
` Q Okay. And when did you detect these
`errors?
` A As I was going through the declaration in
`my review. So this would have been two weekends
`ago and probably into Monday and Tuesday of last
`week.
` Q Okay. So I want to go back then to
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`Paragraph 14 of your report, which is numbered
`Page 5. It looks like it's Page 8 of the PDF.
` This lists references you reviewed.
`Doesn't include the Haupt references you
`mentioned. My question is, why did you review
`these references?
` A Those were the references that I was
`provided to consider.
` Q Who provided them to you?
` A Attorneys at Fish & Richardson.
` Q Did you have any input into selecting
`these references for review?
` A I certainly had the opportunity to comment
`as I went through them to determine whether they
`appeared to be relevant, whether I understood
`them, whether I was comfortable with the technical
`material within them.
` Q If you look at Paragraph 15, the first
`line says, "Counsel has informed me that I should
`consider these materials through the lens of a
`person of ordinary skill in the art."
` What does the term "these materials" refer
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`to?
` A I would view that as referring to the
`paragraph above, so the material that I reviewed
`in the references listed in Paragraph 14.
` Q Plus Haupt, right?
` A Yes.
` Q All right. Turning to Exhibit -- I'm
`sorry -- Paragraph 16, next page. This paragraph
`starts, "This declaration explains the conclusions
`that I have formed based on my knowledge and
`experience and my review of the prior art
`references listed above."
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q And by, "The prior art references listed
`above," do you mean the references listed in
`Paragraph 14?
` A Correct. Plus Haupt, as we've noted.
` Q And then the bullet points, you conclude
`that certain claims are obvious over certain
`references.
` Do you see that?
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` A Yes.
` Q How did you conclude that the claims are
`obvious?
` A I made that conclusion on reviewing the
`claims of the '982 patent and looking at the
`specifications of these prior art references.
` Q So what is the process you went through to
`determine that the claims are obvious?
` A Involves reading the claims of the '982
`patent to understand what the features being
`described and reading the prior art references in
`terms of their entire contents from the abstract
`to the figures to the specifications that they
`teach and considering whether the prior art
`references individually or in combination would
`lead a POSITA to understand the same elements that
`are provided in the '982 claims.
` Q Anything else?
` A No.
` Q And you used the term "POSITA" there. Is
`that an acronym for person of ordinary skill in
`the art?
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` A As I understand it, yes.
` Q Is that how you used the term "POSITA"?
` A It is.
` Q At the end of Paragraph 15, the last
`sentence says, "Unless otherwise stated, my
`testimony below refers to the knowledge of a
`POSITA as of the critical date."
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q The first line -- the first sentence of
`Paragraph 16 says that this declaration explains
`the conclusions you have formed based on my
`knowledge and experience and my review of the
`prior art list -- prior art references listed
`above.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q So is this -- is Paragraph 16 an instance
`where you were not using the knowledge of a POSITA
`as of the critical date?
` A Not at all. I'm using my knowledge and
`experience in understanding what would have been
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`clear to a person of ordinary skill as of that
`time frame based on what I knew and what I would
`have expected a person who is practicing in the
`relevant areas to know.
` Q And if you turn back to
`Paragraph (inaudible) of your report.
` A Paragraph...
` Q 3.
` A 3.
` Q Page 1 -- numbered Page 1.
` Do you see that -- do you recall
`testifying that you were asked whether certain
`references teach or suggest recited -- the
`features recited in the challenged claims of the
`'982 patent?
` A Yes.
` Q How does that relate to your conclusion in
`Paragraph 16 that the claims are obvious?
` A The relationship is that Paragraph 3 is
`indicating what my task was, and Paragraph 16
`summarizes the conclusions that I formed.
` Q And are the conclusions that you formed in
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`Paragraph 16 the result of performing the task
`stated in Paragraph 3?
` A Paragraph 3 and the following paragraphs
`to which it refers, yes.
` Q The following paragraph that Figure 3
`refers to?
` A Paragraph 3. Paragraph 3 states that
`based on -- sorry. My opinions and the bases for
`my opinions are set forth below. And then the
`opinions and bases for the opinions are described
`in the following paragraphs that lead up to
`Paragraph 16.
` Q If you turn to Paragraph 29, which is
`numbered Page 14. 14 and 15.
` Do you see Paragraph 29?
` A Yes.
` Q Does Paragraph 29 explain how you
`construed claim terms of the challenged claims of
`the '982 patent?
` A Yes, it does.
` Q Did you construe any claim terms of the
`'982 patent in order -- in preparing your report?
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` A Yes, some of the terminology would require
`having to interpret, you know, based on what a
`POSITA would have understood at the time how they
`would interpret it. Things such as docking
`station that are not defined in the claim and
`would necessitate thinking about their plain and
`ordinary meaning or how a POSITA would interpret
`them.
` Q How would a POSITA interpret the claim
`term "docking station"?
` A Yeah, so I haven't provided an
`interpretation for that language in my
`declaration, and, as such, I think we'd have to
`refer to the concept of a docking station as being
`an element that a device can dock to, can make a
`connection with.
` Q Are there any terms of the challenged
`claims of the '982 patent that you construed in
`preparation of your report?
` A I'd have to go through claim by claim
`reading carefully to ask myself whether any of
`these -- any of the language therein was not just
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`a straight English term or whether there was some
`technical interpretation needed.
` Q If you look at the last sentence of
`Paragraph 29 on Page 15, it says, "My opinion does
`not change if the invention date is earlier."
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q What opinion of yours does not change if
`the invention date was earlier?
` A I expect that this was referring to
`Paragraph 16 and the conclusions formed there.
`That is the first expression where I provide an
`opinion.
` Q So your -- is it your opinion that the
`claims would have been obvious even if they had an
`earlier invention date?
` A Provided that it wasn't before the dates
`of the prior art references, yes.
` Q And if it was before the prior art
`reference dates, then your opinion would be
`different?
` A Well, certainly if you said that the
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`'982 patent was issued in 1900, I would have
`thought that was probably, you know, some fairly
`farsighted thinking on the part of the inventor.
` Q So in Paragraph 29, I mean, would you
`change the last sentence of your -- of
`Paragraph 29?
` A No.
` Q All right. Could you turn to the next
`paragraph, Paragraph 30.
` And Paragraph 30 states the skill level in
`your opinion for a POSITA for the '982 patent,
`correct?
` A Sorry. Can you repeat the question?
` Q Does Paragraph 30 state your opinion as to
`the skill level of a POSITA for the '982 patent?
` A Yes.
` Q So is it correct that a person of ordinary
`skill in the art at the time of the '982 patent's
`critical date would have had a bachelor's degree
`in an academic area emphasizing electrical
`engineering, computer science, or similar
`discipline and at least two years of experience in
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`wireless communications across short distances or
`local area networks?
` A That's correct. With the caveat of the
`last sentence of the paragraph.
` Q The last sentence says, "Superior
`education could compensate for a deficiency in
`work experience and vice-versa"?
` A Correct.
` Q Is this opinion important to the -- is
`this opinion about the skill level of a POSITA
`important to your opinions in Exhibit 1003?
` MS. HARTJES: Objection. Vague.
`BY THE WITNESS:
` A Well, yes. I mean, I have to have a
`reference for what a POSITA would be expected to
`know at the time.
`BY MR. KNEDEISEN:
` Q Would a person with a bachelor's
`degree -- strike that.
` Would a bachelor's degree in computer
`science qualify as having a bachelor's degree in
`an academic area emphasizing electrical
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`engineering, computer science, or similar
`discipline?
` A Certainly.
` Q Do you see where Paragraph 30 refers to at
`least two years of experience in wireless
`communications across short distances or local
`area networks? Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q When you refer to wireless communications
`across short distance, how short is short?
` A I haven't weighed in on the declaration in
`trying to define, sort of, minimum and maximum
`ranges for, you know, either what is short, what
`is long.
` I think we have to go with, sort of, you
`know, general understandings at the time of what
`was considered a short distance wireless
`communication. So, you know, we're talking about,
`you know, ranges that are within short walking
`distance. You know, something you could -- you
`could get to in, you know, a little bit of
`movement in your house, for example, but not the
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`sort of distance you would need a vehicle to
`cover.
` Q Okay. Thank you.
` What skills would a person who had two
`years of experience in wireless communications
`across short distance acquire -- well, strike
`that. Let me ask a better question.
` What skills would a person acquire with
`two years of experience in wireless communications
`across short distance?
` A Well, much like the academic training,
`their work training could expose them to a variety
`of different areas of know-how.
` I mean, you asked before about a computer
`science degree, for example. And, you know, the
`issue there is you have the possibility that gets
`a computer science degree in algorithmics theory
`without any, sort of, relevant knowledge of the
`fields that are relevant to practicing in wireless
`technologies.
` So industry experience, you could have
`somebody who works in the wireless sector who
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`gains practical experience that is not related to
`the topics covered here. I mean, they might be
`dealing with signal isolation from noise factors,
`for example.
` So the POSITA definition is a general one,
`but I'm assuming that they would gain the
`knowledge in -- just as from their academic
`background preparing them to work in the wireless
`sector and wireless communication. And through
`their industry experience, they would gain
`relevant know-how that touches on some of the
`circuitry design, some of the transmission and
`receiving elements that are relevant, some of the
`cyclo acoustic factors in terms of playback,
`delays that are tolerable between the two channels
`of audio.
` So there would be a variety of different
`skill sets that would be acquired in that time
`that would be important for a POSITA in that area.
` Q What skills would a person acquire from
`two years of experience in local area networks?
` A Much the same. The local area network
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`would possibly not involve some of the wireless
`elements, but it would equally involve questions
`of signal strength, microelectronic circuitry.
` And if they're working on local area
`networks with an emphasis on audio data delivery,
`they would also deal with some of the latency
`requirements.
` Q While we're on it, what is a local area
`network?
` A So a local area network is a connection or
`a topology that allows for communicati
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