`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
`----------------------------------------------------
`APPLE INC.,
`Petitioner,
`vs.
`KOSS CORPORATION,
`Patent Owner.
`----------------------------------------------------
`IPR2021-00305
`U.S. Patent No. 10,506,325
`IPR2021-00381
`U.S. Patent No. 10,491,982
`----------------------------------------------------
`
`Virtual Deposition of JEREMY COOPERSTOCK, Ph.D.
`Tuesday, January 18, 2022
`11:06 a.m. CST
`
`Job No.: 424006
`Pages: 1 - 56
`Reported by: Tiffany M. Pietrzyk, CSR RPR CRR
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` Virtual deposition of JEREMY COOPERSTOCK,
`Ph.D., pursuant to notice, before Tiffany M.
`Pietrzyk, a Certified Shorthand Reporter, Registered
`Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter,
`and a Notary Public in and for the State of
`Illinois.
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
` SETH M. SPROUL, ESQUIRE
` RYAN CHOWDHURY, ESQUIRE (D.C.)
` PARVIN GHANE, ESQUIRE (Austin)
` FISH & RICHARDSON P.C.
` 12860 El Camino Real, Suite 400
` San Diego, California 92130
` 858.678.4343
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
` MARK G. KNEDEISEN, ESQUIRE
` LAUREN SHUTTLEWORTH MURRAY, ESQUIRE
` BRIAN P. BOZZO, ESQUIRE
` K&L GATES LLP
` 210 Sixth Avenue
` Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15222
` 412.355.6500
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Erik Halverson
` Jon Potler, Planet Depos Remote Technician
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` C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION OF JEREMY COOPERSTOCK, Ph.D. PAGE
` By Mr. Knedeisen 6
`
` E X H I B I T S
` (Retained by Counsel)
`DEPOSITION EXHIBITS PAGE
`Exhibit APPLE-1001 U.S. Patent Number 36
` 10,506,325
`Exhibit APPLE-1003 First Declaration of 17
` Dr. Jeremy Cooperstock
`Exhibit APPLE-1004 The Brown Reference, 9
` U.S. Patent Number
` 9,021,108 B2
`Exhibit APPLE-1024 Supplemental 39
` Declaration of Dr.
` Jeremy Cooperstock
` for '982 patent
`Exhibit APPLE-1026 Kim patent application 21
`Exhibit APPLE-1027 Jabra Talk 5 Data 31
` sheet
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` E X H I B I T S (Cont.)
`DEPOSITION EXHIBITS PAGE
` Exhibit APPLE-1030 U.S. Patent Number 50
` 7,916,888
` Exhibit KOSS-2036 Declaration of 12
` Nicholas S. Blair
` Exhibit KOSS-2039 Declaration of 42
` Nicholas S. Blair for
` the '982 patent
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` (Witness sworn.)
`WHEREUPON:
` JEREMY COOPERSTOCK, Ph.D.,
`called as a witness herein, having been first duly
`sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. KNEDEISEN:
` Q. Hello, Dr. Cooperstock. My name is Mark
`Knedeisen, representing Koss Corporation.
` Just for the record, this is the deposition
`for IPR2021-00305 for the '325 patent and
`IPR2021-00381 for the '982 patent.
` And if at any time you can't hear my
`question, just let me know. I'll reask it. Or if
`you don't understand my question, just let me know,
`and I will rephrase it if possible. All right?
` A. Very good.
` Q. Have you ever designed a pair of earphones?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Could you describe the earphones that you
`designed?
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` A. They were fairly simple, using existing
`components of speakers, wires, power supply.
` Q. Were they ever sold commercially?
` A. No.
` Q. When did you design the earphones you're
`describing?
` A. Sometime in the early 1970s.
` Q. Is that the only pair of earphones that you
`designed?
` A. That I can recall at present, yes.
` Q. Were the earphones that you designed in the
`early 1970s wireless earphones?
` A. No, they were not.
` Q. And can I assume they were not wireless
`earbuds?
` A. You can assume that.
` Q. And do you have any patents on headphone
`design?
` A. I do not have any patents on headphones.
` Q. Have you ever written any academic papers on
`headphone design?
` A. I would have to go through my publications
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`to check for certain, but I believe that numerous of
`the papers involving audio communication and our
`Open Orchestra simulator related to some of the
`choices of headphone technology and deployment
`thereof.
` Q. Did you say orchestra simulator?
` A. Open Orchestra simulator.
` Q. What is Open Orchestra simulator?
` A. That was an immersive multimodal simulation
`environment for musical performers to practice
`without necessarily being colocated with other
`members of the orchestra.
` Q. And do you recall what your papers describe
`related to choice of headphone technology for the
`Open Orchestra simulator?
` A. I would have to go back to refresh my
`memory. It was quite a few years ago.
` Q. All right. I'm going to ask you questions
`about Rosener. I believe it's Exhibit 1004 in both
`of these IPRs.
` MR. KNEDEISEN: So, Jon, maybe you can bring
`up Exhibit 1004 in either the '355 or the -- '305 or
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`the '381.
` (Exhibit APPLE-1004 was marked for
`identification was retained by counsel.)
` Q. And you recognize Rosener, correct,
`Dr. Cooperstock?
` A. I recognize Rosener, yes.
` Q. And do you recall how paragraph 49 of
`Rosener talks about a signal conditioning circuit?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And one of the things paragraph 49 of
`Rosener says is that the signal conditioning circuit
`can provide is amplification; correct?
` A. "Signal conditioning circuit 916 can provide
`digital-to-analog conversion, filtering,
`amplification, and/or other signal processing
`functioning, to ensure that the processed data is in
`a form suitable to drive the data sink 918."
` Q. And you were reading from paragraph 49 of
`Rosener; correct?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Are there analog amplification circuits?
` Let me strike that. I'm not asking about
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`Rosener, per se.
` In general, are there analog amplification
`circuits?
` A. In general, yes, amplification can be
`performed in analog.
` Q. And are there analog filtering circuits?
` A. In general, yes, filtering can be performed
`by analog circuitry.
` Q. Now, for the '325 patent IPR, could you look
`at your supplemental declaration, which is
`Exhibit 1023 in the '325 patent IPR, which is the
`00305 IPR.
` MR. KNEDEISEN: Jon, could you bring that
`up?
` Q. Dr. Cooperstock, are you at the diagram on
`page 10 of that exhibit?
` A. No, I'm on the cover page right now.
` Q. Okay. Well, I direct your attention to
`paragraph 16. It starts on page 9 and has some
`diagrams on the next page.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Do you see the top diagram with the person's
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`head and the two earphones, 502, 504?
` A. I see that.
` Q. Let's look at earbud 502. Is there a
`vertical elongated portion?
` A. Element 502 in the diagram shows an
`elongated portion. As to whether it is vertical or
`oblique is unclear from the illustration.
` Q. In the figure in your supplemental
`declaration, is there something extending from the
`elongated portion?
` A. There is a -- what would possibly be
`described as a lightning bolt that indicates that is
`going to audio source.
` Q. What about at the top of the elongated
`portion? Is there something that extends normal to
`the elongated portion?
` A. The -- you're referring to the earbud
`component of element 502, yeah. I ...
` Q. And where is the earbud component of 502
`relative to the elongated portion?
` A. It is to the right of it, as shown in the
`illustration, and located near the -- as shown in
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`the illustration, the upper portion of the elongated
`portion.
` Q. Do you remember how Nick Blair's declaration
`talked about the parts of the human ear?
` A. I have approximate recollection of it. If
`you want me to refer to specific sections, I'll have
`to pull it up.
` Q. Well, are you familiar with the helix of the
`human ear?
` A. I will have to pull up the declaration to
`get into specifics.
` Q. All right.
` MR. KNEDEISEN: So can we bring up -- it's
`Exhibit KOSS-1036?
` (Exhibit KOSS-2036 was marked for
`identification was retained by counsel.)
` Q. And it's the -- page 4 of that declaration,
`paragraph 7.
` [!EZ SPEAKER 102]: You said KOSS-1036?
` MR. KNEDEISEN: I'm sorry. 2036.
` [!EZ SPEAKER 102]: Okay. Thank you.
` A. Okay. And since I was not given in advance
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`the download of files, I have only my own copies of
`them that were labeled with Apple numbers. So
`referring to the -- we're in the '325 case. I have
`the McAlexander deposition, APPLE-1024?
` Q. No, that's not it.
` Why don't we do this. Look at your
`supplemental declaration, the one we were just
`looking at.
` A. Yes.
` Q. From the '325 patent. Turn to paragraph 6.
`There's a table. And if you go to page 6, there's
`listed KOSS-2036, Declaration of Nicholas S. Blair.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Do you have that?
` A. Yeah. Here it's -- it has a much longer
`name in front of file. Let's see where it's --
`let's pull it up. Hopefully, this is the right one.
`And the '325, yes, I have that in front of me now.
` Q. And the diagram of the human ear is at
`page 4, paragraph 7.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Do you see the reference to a helix?
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` A. I see the helix pointed out on the figure,
`yes.
` Q. And is that an accurate depiction of where
`the helix is on the human ear?
` A. I'm not an expert in ear anatomy, so I would
`not want to venture a comment as to whether -- on to
`the -- well, I would not want to venture a comment
`as to the accuracy of the labeling of the structures
`of the human ear.
` Q. I want to go back to the diagram on page 10
`of your supplemental declaration.
` And my question is does the elongated
`portion of earphone 502 extend to the helix of the
`user's ear depicted in that figure according to the
`definition of a helix given by Mr. Blair in his
`declaration?
` A. Mr. Blair doesn't -- oh, I'm sorry. This
`isn't searchable.
` If you would be able to point me to where
`Mr. Blair defines the helix apart from the
`illustration in the figure that's provided, I'd be
`able to more --
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` Q. Referring to the figure.
` A. Sorry. Only in the figure.
` Q. Yeah.
` A. So, unfortunately, the figure is not
`entirely clear or not clear at all as to whether the
`helix is only the area immediately to the vicinity
`of where the line extends, whether it goes all the
`way down to the earlobe, whether it wraps around to
`the front of the ear. I'm unable to determine
`anything about the helix other than the fact that
`it's labeled on that figure. And as I'm not an
`expert in ear anatomy, I'm very hesitant to weigh in
`with any opinions related.
` Q. And so if you touch the top of your ear,
`what would call that part of your ear?
` A. I would call it the top of my ear. Again,
`I'm not an expert in ear anatomy.
` Q. And so if you look at the figure in
`paragraph 16 of your declaration, page 10, does the
`elongated portion of earphone 502 extend to the top
`of the ear?
` A. As shown in the figure on page 10 of my
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`supplemental declaration, the extended portion or
`the elongated portion of the earphone does not
`contact the upper portion, that is the topmost part
`of the external ear or the outer ear.
` Q. If you can look in Nick Blair's declaration,
`which is Exhibit 2036, page 9, it's the diagram
`above paragraph 14.
` Do you see that diagram?
` A. I have to pull up the Blair declaration.
` Sorry. Which -- we're still talking about
`the Exhibit 2036?
` Q. Yes.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Page 9, the diagram above paragraph 14. You
`got that? It's labeled figure 5.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And that is a diagram that appeared in your
`original declaration for the '325 patent; correct?
`I think it's at paragraph 84 of your original
`declaration.
` A. Paragraph -- sorry?
` Q. Of your original declaration, I believe it's
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`paragraph 84, which would be Exhibit APPLE-1003.
` (Exhibit APPLE-1003 was marked for
`identification was retained by counsel.)
` A. Yes, that is the same figure as from my
`original declaration.
` Q. So looking at this figure, which is at
`paragraph 84 of your original declaration, Exhibit
`APPLE-1003, do you see the part in yellow?
` A. I see the curved hanger bar identified in
`the, sort of, off-yellow color.
` Q. So what is the curved hanger bar, as
`depicted in this figure, connected?
` A. The curved hanger bar is connected to in --
`as described in some embodiments of Rosener in which
`the curved hanger bar is connected to the housing of
`each of the earphones. So in this case, the curved
`hanger bar to the left of the figure is connected to
`element 502.
` Q. And it's connected to the elongated portion
`of element 502; correct?
` A. I'm not finding in Rosener an explicit
`statement as to what part of the earphone the curved
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`hanger bar attaches, nor do I find such a statement
`in my original declaration.
` Q. Well, I thought we already covered this. I
`mean, earphone 502 in this figure 5, the black
`portion has what I call a "vertical portion." You
`said it wasn't vertical, but you called it an
`"elongated portion"; is that correct?
` A. Element 502 has an elongated portion of the
`earbud.
` Q. And is the curved hanger bar connected to
`the elongated portion?
` A. As I stated, neither Rosener nor my
`declaration makes an explicit statement as to what
`portion of the earbud the elongated -- the curved
`hanger bar is attached.
` Q. Did you ever construct earphones as depicted
`in this figure at paragraph 84 of your original
`declaration?
` A. I don't believe I've ever constructed
`earphones that have that configuration.
` Q. Did you ever construct a computer model of
`the earphones depicted in the diagram of
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`paragraph 84 of your original declaration?
` A. I don't believe I've constructed a computer
`model of the headphones as depicted in paragraph 84
`of my original declaration.
` Q. Did you ever compute the center of mass for
`the earphones as depicted in the diagram in
`paragraph 84 of your original declaration?
` A. I would not be able to do any computation of
`center of mass without having the relevant
`parameters of the earphone to carry out that
`calculation.
` Q. Did you perform any mathematical
`calculations of the forces that would be acting on
`earphones when worn by a user for the earphones
`depicted in paragraph 84 of your original
`declaration?
` A. Once again, without having specification of
`the parameters, the weights of the different
`elements, the components, the attachment, the
`coefficient of friction, I would not be able to
`perform such calculations.
` Q. Did you --
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` A. Sorry. Neither would Koss or Koss's experts
`be able to perform such calculations without having
`those parameters available.
` Q. Did you ever model the forces that would be
`exerted by the earphones depicted in diagram at
`paragraph 84 of your original declaration?
` A. I, once again, was unable or would have been
`unable to carry out those calculations without the
`parameters having been specified, as would Koss's
`experts have been unable to perform the same
`calculations.
` Q. I apologize. I have a couple similar
`questions here. I expect I'll get the same answer,
`but I'm going to ask them nevertheless.
` Did you ever model the force from the earbud
`for the earphones depicted in paragraph 84
`contacting the conscious surface of the ear?
` A. And I have not performed any such
`calculations, given that parameters -- the relevant
`parameters were not provided or specified. And the
`same would apply to Koss's experts, would not have
`been able to perform those calculations either.
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`21
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` Q. Did you model the force from the hanger bar
`contacting the top portion of the ear?
` A. I did not perform any modeling or
`calculation of forces related to the hanger bar.
` Q. Did you model the rigidity of the curved
`hanger bar?
` A. As before, without having parameters of the
`materials being provided and the coefficients of
`friction and rigidity factors, I would not be able
`to perform such calculations.
` Q. Could you look at Exhibit APPLE-1026? This
`is the Kim patent application.
` (Exhibit APPLE-1026 was marked for
`identification was retained by counsel.)
` A. Wrong one.
` Q. Do you have that?
` A. No, just a moment.
` Q. Okay.
` A. I'm afraid without the nice bundle, my files
`just have too many -- too many folders, and I don't
`have it named according to the same.
` Q. So if Jon put up exhibit --
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` A. Oh, yeah. I'll work with the one that's on
`screen.
` Q. Okay. Well, if you could turn to
`paragraph 23, I just want to confirm that Kim
`discloses a Bluetooth headset with a body 2 and an
`ear hook 3; correct?
` A. That is what's described in paragraph 23 of
`Kim. "The Bluetooth headset includes a body and an
`ear hook protruding from the body."
` Q. Why don't we look at figures 1 and 2 of Kim,
`which are on pages 2 and 3.
` MR. SPROUL: Dr. Cooperstock, if you're
`comfortable proceeding with the version online,
`that's fine. If, for some reason, you need to
`consult the document on your own, I think they will
`offer to allow you to download it.
` But proceed here as you will.
` A. Yeah, certainly. The figures I recall from
`my declaration, so that's not an issue.
` Q. My question -- first question is where is
`the ear hook connected to the body relative to the
`earbud?
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` A. Well, it's connected to the body at the
`bottom portion of the dashed oval that's illustrated
`with the arrow to letter A.
` Q. And is it -- is the ear hook connected to
`the body portion below the earbud?
` A. I'm not sure what "above" and "below" refers
`to. I mean, in the illustration here, as the earbud
`is portrayed on the page, the ear hook attaches on
`the -- well, which way is upper, in fact?
` So we have -- we have several different
`elements to describe here. There's the elongated
`portion, which I believe is -- I guess, item
`number 2. There's the earbud portion itself, which
`is element number 4. And the elongated portion 2
`can be thought of as having an upper label
`associated with the longitudinal portion that is
`extending from left to right or to the vertical
`portion extending from top to bottom or bottom to
`top of the page. But in terms of how those
`descriptions of "upper" and "lower" relate to the
`manner in which the earbud is worn and how the hook
`is worn, I think we get into confusion, given the
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`representation. So the attachment of the hanger is,
`as I indicated, at the bottom portion on the
`illustration of the dashed oval represented by the
`letter A.
` Q. So do you see the ear hook 3 in figure 1 of
`Kim?
` A. I do.
` Q. And do you see the reference number 31 in
`figure 1 of Kim?
` A. I see that as well.
` Q. So when the headset in figure 1 of Kim is
`worn, where would element 31 be positioned?
` A. Well, for that, I would like to make sure
`that I've got the descriptions in Kim in front of
`me. So this is Apple -- sorry. What is the --
` Q. 1026 for the 00305 IPR.
` A. Oh, okay. I do have it here. 1026.
`Looking for Kim was not very helpful.
` Q. There's too many numbers.
` A. Absolutely.
` So from my brief glancing through Kim, I'm
`not finding any description of where specifically
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`the hanger, or portion 31, is to be worn on the
`user's ear aside from, as per paragraph 26 of Kim,
`the reference simply stating that the ear hook
`includes a hook portion 31 having a specific radius
`of curvature to be worn on the user's ear. So it's
`not -- not more specific than that.
` Q. Would the portion indicated by reference
`number 31 in figure 1 of Kim be worn at the top of
`the user's ear when the headset 1 in figure 1 of Kim
`is worn by a user?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection. Form.
` A. Yeah, if you could point me to a section in
`my declaration where I weigh in on any
`considerations as to where or what portion of the
`ear the hook or element 31 of the hook would be worn
`on the user's ear, I'd happily weigh in on that, but
`I'm not finding anything on first glance described
`in Kim that indicates where on the ear or where
`relative to the ear the hook is worn.
` Q. Do you have an opinion on where the portion
`of the ear hook indicated by reference number 31
`would be positioned relative to the user's ear when
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`the headset depicted in figure 1 of Kim is worn by a
`user?
` A. Well, my opinion, which is not articulated
`from any specific elements in Kim or Kim's
`description, would be based on the intent of the
`hook to provide a securing function. And as such,
`to counteract gravity, I would expect that it would
`be what you would call, when a person is standing
`up, as going over the portion of their ear between
`the head and the upper portion of what was, I guess,
`labeled in the Blair declaration of the -- what was
`that -- the helix.
` Q. Do you want to look at the Blair
`declaration?
` A. Sorry. I'm just going to go back to the
`Blair declaration to get that figure.
` Yeah, so, similar, in fact, to figure 4 from
`Rosener, which I have provided following
`paragraph 38 in my original declaration, the hook
`would go over and contacting part of the upper
`portion of the ear. And if I -- so it could go
`partly on top of the upper ear and partly between
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`the upper portion of the external ear and the user's
`head, as is shown in that figure.
` Q. Okay. You mean, that figure, you're
`referring to the figure, figure 4 of Rosener which
`is duplicated at paragraph 38 of your original
`declaration?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. All right. I want to go back to figure 1 of
`Kim, which is Exhibit 1026. Are the earbud 4 and
`the ear hook 3 connected to the same surface of the
`body 2?
` A. Sorry. Figure 2.
` Q. Figure 1, I was looking at.
` A. Sorry. Figure 1.
` Q. Though I think the figures are related.
` A. Sorry. Go ahead with your question.
` Q. Are the earbud 4 and the ear hook 3
`connected to the same surface of the body portion 2?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection. Form.
` A. This is not something I've considered in
`my -- either my original declaration or my
`supplemental declaration. And I'm not finding
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`anything in the description in Kim that is explicit
`as to what portions of the body the ear hook and the
`earbud attach to, whether they're the same or not.
`And figure 1, as it's not definitively described, I
`would be unable to answer that question.
` Q. For the headset disclosed in Kim, is the
`earbud between the portion of the ear hook that
`connects to the body and the portion of the ear hook
`that goes on the top of the user's ear?
` A. I'm sorry. I'm completely confused by your
`question. Could you repeat that and break that
`down?
` Q. For the headset disclosed in Kim, is the
`earbud between the portion of the ear hook that
`connects to the body and the portion of the ear hook
`that goes on the top of the user's ear?
` A. As I see in figure 1, the earbud is offset
`along the long axis of the elongated portion of the
`body. And it's approximately centered in terms of
`where it attaches in the transverse direction to
`the -- to the long portion. The hook attaches near
`or possibly on the earbud portion, and the hook
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`extends -- that is, the hook going to item or
`element 31 -- extends away from both the earbud and
`the elongated body portion. But in terms of the
`relative positioning, I think, you know, you have to
`take figure 1 at its face value, and I really can't
`provide in words better description of what's shown
`there than the picture itself illustrates.
` Q. In figure 1 of Kim, is reference numeral 31
`to the right of the earbud 4?
` A. As appears on the page, on the printed page,
`yes, 31 is to the right of the other members of the
`earbud.
` Q. And is the place where the ear hook connects
`to the body to the left of the earbud 4 in figure 1
`of Kim?
` A. That's somewhat indeterminate from the
`figure, given that the earbud 4 extends and is
`larger in diameter than the hook where it overlaps
`with the body.
` Q. Is the place where the ear hook connects to
`the body to the left of where the earbud connects to
`the body in figure 1 of Kim?
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` A. Once again, the -- this is indeterminate
`given the illustration and the fact that earbud 4
`has a larger diameter than the hook. And I'll note,
`you know, in addition that the questions you're
`asking me are not elements or aspects of design that
`I've considered at all in preparing for the
`deposition today in that, without parameters being
`given for the details of the design, the weights,
`the friction coefficients, and so forth, and the
`details of positioning of these different elements
`within the references, I don't have information
`which allows me to give you answers as to exact
`positioning and where exactly on the ear these
`different elements would be placed.
` Q. Okay. Thank you. But still referring to
`figure 1, you referred to a long axis in figure 1;
`is that correct?
` A. The long axis would be going from the left
`of the page to the right of the page, along the
`elongated member element.
` Q. And does the right end of the elongated
`member extend past the earbud on the long axis?
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` A. As shown on the page, the elongated portion
`extends to the right of earbud 4 -- of the earbud 4.
` Q. All right. I want to ask you about Exhibit
`APPLE-1027 for this IPR, which is the 305 IPR.
`That's the Jabra Talk 5 exhibit.
` Do you remember that one?
` A. Yes.
` (Exhibit APPLE-1027 was marked for
`identification was retained by counsel.)
` MR. SPROUL: Mark, is this a good time for a
`break? I think we've been going for about an hour.
` MR. KNEDEISEN: It's a good time. Do you
`want to go off the record?
` MR. SPROUL: Sure.
` (A short break was had.)
`BY MR. KNEDEISEN:
` Q. Dr. Cooperstock, I wanted to ask you about
`Exhibit