UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
`----------------------------------------------------
` APPLE INC.,
` Petitioner,
` vs.
` KOSS CORPORATION,
` Patent Owner.
`----------------------------------------------------
` IPR2021-00255
` U.S. Patent No. 10,298,451
`----------------------------------------------------
`
` Virtual Deposition of JEREMY COOPERSTOCK, Ph.D.
` Tuesday, January 18, 2022
` 9:07 a.m. CST
`
`Job No.: 424006
`Pages: 1 - 45
`Reported by: Tiffany M. Pietrzyk, CSR RPR CRR
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
`----------------------------------------------------
` APPLE INC.,
` Petitioner,
` vs.
` KOSS CORPORATION,
` Patent Owner.
`----------------------------------------------------
` IPR2021-00255
` U.S. Patent No. 10,298,451
`----------------------------------------------------
`
` Virtual Deposition of JEREMY COOPERSTOCK, Ph.D.
` Tuesday, January 18, 2022
` 9:07 a.m. CST
`
`Job No.: 424006
`Pages: 1 - 45
`Reported by: Tiffany M. Pietrzyk, CSR RPR CRR
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D.
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`2
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`Virtual deposition of JEREMY COOPERSTOCK,
`Ph.D., pursuant to notice, before Tiffany M.
`Pietrzyk, a Certified Shorthand Reporter, Registered
`Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter,
`and a Notary Public in and for the State of
`Illinois.
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`3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
` SETH M. SPROUL, ESQUIRE
` RYAN CHOWDHURY, ESQUIRE (D.C.)
` PARVIN GHANE, ESQUIRE (Austin)
` FISH & RICHARDSON P.C.
` 12860 El Camino Real, Suite 400
` San Diego, California 92130
` 858.678.4343
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
` MARK G. KNEDEISEN, ESQUIRE
` LAUREN SHUTTLEWORTH MURRAY, ESQUIRE
` BRIAN P. BOZZO, ESQUIRE
` K&L GATES LLP
` 210 Sixth Avenue
` Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15222
` 412.355.6500
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Erik Halverson
` Jon Potler, Planet Depos Remote Technician
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`4
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` C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION OF JEREMY COOPERSTOCK, Ph.D. PAGE
` By Ms. Murray 6
` By Mr. Sproul 42
`
` E X H I B I T S
` (Retained by Counsel)
`DEPOSITION EXHIBITS PAGE
`Exhibit APPLE-1003 First Declaration of 9
` Dr. Jeremy Cooperstock
`Exhibit APPLE-1004 The Brown Reference, 11
` U.S. Patent Number
` 9,021,108 B2
`Exhibit APPLE-1005 U.S. Patent Number 24
` 7,627,289
`Exhibit APPLE-1023 Supplemental 19
` Declaration of
` Dr. Jeremy Cooperstock
`Exhibit APPLE-1025 Cooperstock 28
` Deposition Transcript
` in IPR 2021-00600
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`5
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` E X H I B I T S (Cont.)
`DEPOSITION EXHIBITS PAGE
` Exhibit APPLE-1026 Raleigh reference, 36
` U.S. Patent Number
` 8,868,639
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` (Witness sworn.)
`WHEREUPON:
` JEREMY COOPERSTOCK,
`called as a witness herein, having been first duly
`sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MS. MURRAY:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Cooperstock. I'm Lauren
`Murray. How are you today?
` A. Good morning, Lauren. I'm fine.
` How are you?
` Q. Very good. Thank you.
` Today we'll be discussing IPR2021-00255
`first. That's the IPR related to U.S. Patent
`Number 10,298,451.
` Where are you situated for this IPR --
` A. I'm currently --
` Q. Or for this deposition -- sorry.
` A. Yeah, I'm currently in San Juan del Sur,
`Nicaragua.
` Q. Okay. And is there anybody with you right
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`now?
` A. No, there is not.
` Q. Okay. What papers or documents do you have
`in front of you at the moment?
` A. I have the three declarations that I've
`given in this matter, as well as the other two that
`are the subject for deposition today. And I have
`the patents at issue, the Koss patents, available to
`open, as well as the prior art references and the
`declarations of Koss's experts and Koss's in-house
`engineer, as well as the PORs, I guess, that were
`provided.
` Q. And do you have any applications running on
`your computer right now besides the Zoom?
` A. I have the Zoom, my calendar, which gave me
`the link -- which I can close -- to the Zoom
`session. I have Adobe Acrobat Reader and the web
`browser that I was using for teaching. Let me close
`my web browser as well. And I have my camera
`controller up to verify that the camera is
`positioned or oriented correctly.
` Q. Thank you.
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`8
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` As an initial instruction, if you ever don't
`understand one of my questions or you can't hear one
`of my questions, please let me know. I'm happy to
`rephrase it or reask it. Is that okay?
` A. Yes, thank you.
` Q. Great.
` Looking at paragraph 17 of your supplemental
`declaration, that's Exhibit APPLE-1023. In
`paragraph 17, do you incorporate the overview of the
`Brown-Scherzer combination from your first
`declaration?
` A. That is correct.
` Q. Where does the overview of the
`Brown-Scherzer combination begin in your first
`declaration?
` A. Let me open that.
` PLANET DEPOS REMOTE TECHNICIAN: Ms. Murray,
`would you like me to share this on the screen, or
`does everyone have a copy?
` MS. MURRAY: Everyone should have a copy.
` MR. SPROUL: Is that APPLE-1003, when you
`refer to the "first declaration"?
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` MS. MURRAY: Yes, that would be APPLE-1003.
` MR. SPROUL: Thank you.
` MS. MURRAY: If you could pull it up on the
`screen, it might be helpful to make sure we're all
`looking at the same document.
` (Exhibit APPLE-1003 was marked for
`identification was retained by counsel.)
` A. Let me make sure I'm there.
` No, I opened the second one. Just a moment.
` 13602018. Okay, good. So I have the
`document. Let me go to the overview.
`BY MS. MURRAY:
` Q. Where does the overview of the
`Brown-Scherzer combination in your first
`declaration, this Exhibit 1003, begin?
` A. This begins on page 14 at the bottom where I
`have -- sorry. Page 14 of the numbered pages. So
`you have to scroll down, I believe, three more
`pages.
` There we go. Where it begins "Section VI,
`Overview of Prior Art, The Brown-Scherzer
`Combination, Overview of Brown."
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` Q. Thank you.
` And is there a figure in this section that
`depicts the Brown-Scherzer combination?
` A. On page 30 of my -- so numbered page 30 in
`the document, just above paragraph 47.
` Q. In this figure on page 30, what is
`element 182?
` A. As I describe in paragraph 49 of my original
`declaration, 182 is configuration data.
` Q. Where is the configuration data located in
`the Brown-Scherzer combination?
` A. As I've illustrated in the combined system
`in the figure above paragraph 47 of my original
`declaration, configuration data is within mobile
`electronic device 105, and it is transmitted to
`mobile electronic device 101.
` Q. This Brown-Scherzer combined system relies
`on the Brown reference and the Scherzer reference.
`Turning to the Brown reference first, that is
`Exhibit APPLE-1004.
` Does Brown impose any restrictions on what
`the user of mobile electronic device 105 can do with
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`11
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`the configuration data 182?
` (Exhibit APPLE-1004 was marked for
`identification was retained by counsel.)
` A. Perhaps you could help me by referring to
`some element either in my initial declaration or my
`supplemental one that you're -- you have in mind
`where I discuss any such possible limitations that
`Brown would teach.
` Q. I'm just referring to Brown in general.
` Does Brown impose any restrictions on what
`the user of device 105 can do with the configuration
`data 182?
` MR. SPROUL: Objection. Form.
` A. I'll take the time to check Brown since
`you're not referring me to anything in my
`declarations that discussed such constraints or
`restrictions.
` Q. Okay. Take your time.
` A. I've gone through -- skimmed through Brown
`in reference to element 182, the configuration data.
`And much like with Scherzer, I'm not seeing any
`teachings in Brown that restrict what the user can
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`12
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`do with the configuration data.
` Q. Does Brown restrict what types of devices --
`what types of other devices -- excuse me -- that
`mobile device 105 can transmit the credential data
`to?
` A. Once again, it would make my life easier if
`you would point me to a specific paragraph in either
`my original declaration or my supplemental
`declaration where I discuss any such specifications
`of what kinds of devices Brown describes as
`potential recipients of that information.
`Otherwise, I just have to look through Brown in
`entirety to look for the -- an answer to your
`question.
` Q. My question is really more general than
`that. Off the top of your head, do you recall Brown
`imposing any limits on the types of devices that
`credential data 182 can be transmitted to?
` A. Well, I'll take a look at Brown, then. Go
`through it.
` Q. Okay. Thank you.
` A. In my brief skim-through of Brown, I am not
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`13
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`able to find any restrictions that are described.
` Rather, Brown is talking about the
`transmission of this information between mobile
`electronic devices. And in column 5 of Brown
`beginning at line 57, Brown describes, for example,
`"As device 101 comprises any suitable mobile
`electronic device for processing application 136,
`including but not limited to any suitable
`combination of portable electronic devices, mobile
`computing device, portable devices, tablet computing
`devices, laptop computing devices, PDAs, bracket,
`personal digital assistants, closed bracket, cell
`phones, smartphones, and the like. Other suitable
`portable electronic devices are within the scope of
`present implementations."
` So it appears that Brown is -- quite the
`opposite. Brown is quite encompassing of many
`different types of mobile communications or mobile
`electronics devices that could receive the
`information from element 182 -- of element 182.
` Q. In Brown, can device 105 transmit the
`configuration data 182 to other devices that are
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`14
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`owned by a different person?
` PLANET DEPOS REMOTE TECHNICIAN: I think
`you're muted right now, Dr. Cooperstock.
` THE WITNESS: I noticed that just as I began
`speaking. I don't know what -- how I did that.
` A. Once again, I'm not finding anything
`explicit in Brown that places limitations on
`specifications of the owner. However, in column 5
`of Brown, on -- beginning on line 13, Brown notes,
`"It is yet further appreciated that device 101 and
`device 105 can each be associated with the same user
`(not depicted), and hence, it can be desired that
`each of devices 101, 105 be enabled to communicate
`with the same wireless access points."
` So Brown indicates that the devices can be
`associated with the same user but doesn't appear to
`restrict in that manner.
` Q. In the Brown-Scherzer combination on page 30
`that we were referencing earlier, page 30 of
`Exhibit 1003, can devices 101 and 105 be associated
`with different users?
` A. I'm not seeing anything indicating that my
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`examples or the discussion that I've considered the
`combination treats different users. The examples
`I've described are related to multiple devices but
`always in the context of a user or the user -- so a
`user with a smartphone and a tablet who wishes to
`share configuration data between those devices.
` Q. In the Brown-Scherzer combination, the
`Brown-Scherzer combination on page 30, is it limited
`to the device 105 and device 101 being associated
`with the same user?
` A. Once again, in the examples that I've
`provided in my initial declaration on this file, the
`combination is described with respect to multiple
`devices belonging to a user or the user. However,
`as I note in paragraph 22 of my supplemental
`declaration that we're referring to here, with
`respect to the Scherzer elements in the combination,
`Scherzer does not describe any restrictions imposed
`on a registered user with what they can do with
`downloaded network credential information. And in
`particular, there's no express teaching clearly
`disparaging the notion of providing the network
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`16
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`credential information to another device or
`providing the network credential information to
`other users. But in my examples, I've described
`them as being multiple devices belonging to the same
`user.
` Q. Outside of those two examples, in all
`instances, is the Brown-Scherzer combination limited
`to device 101 and device 105 being associated with
`the same user?
` A. Sorry. That's a long question, and there
`were a few little gaps coming through. So if you
`could repeat that in smaller chunks, I can deal with
`the question properly.
` Q. Apart from the two examples that you provide
`in your declaration, in general, in the
`Brown-Scherzer combination, can mobile device 101
`and mobile device 105 be associated with different
`users?
` A. Well, since Scherzer doesn't explicitly
`teach anything that would prohibit sharing of
`credential information from one user to another
`user, in general, the combination that I described
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`17
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`does not preclude that either. But that's not what
`I've put forth in the two examples that I used in my
`original declaration and to which I refer to in my
`supplemental declaration.
` Q. After the mobile device 101 receives the
`data 102 -- I'm sorry -- receives the data 182, the
`configuration data 182, does Brown limit what the
`user of device 101 can do with the configuration
`data 182?
` A. Sorry. I'm going to have to go back to the
`diagram and ask you to repeat that so I can refer to
`the elements. Can you repeat the question, please,
`so I can --
` Q. Sure. After the mobile electronic
`device 101 receives the configuration data 182, does
`Brown impose any restrictions or limits on what the
`user of the mobile electronic device 101 can do with
`the configuration data 182?
` A. As I described in paragraph 22 of my
`supplemental declaration, at the bottom of page 12,
`since the combination is the Brown-Scherzer
`combination, I'll refer to Scherzer's teachings.
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`And Scherzer does not describe any restrictions
`imposed on a registered user with what they can do
`with downloaded and network credential information.
`And I go on to elaborate. And this makes sense
`because a user who obtains credential information
`could share it with anybody they wish to regardless
`of what system they are using. I could write it
`down on a piece of paper, I could email it to
`somebody, I could transmit it through any other
`means. Scherzer does not, nor does Brown, address
`any -- imposing any constraints on a user's ability
`to do so. But, again, that's not what I've
`described as being the purpose of the combination of
`Brown and Scherzer in the examples that I use to
`illustrate the combination.
` Q. Would it defeat the purposes of Scherzer to
`limit what devices or how many devices a user can
`connect to Scherzer's access points?
` A. Both Brown and Scherzer fundamentally share
`an objective of improving network access, and in
`that respect, Scherzer's intent of allowing a user
`to share network credentials between that user's
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`devices is certainly something that Scherzer holds
`as an objective. And as such, there would not seem
`to be, in general, a reason why a POSITA
`implementing the Brown-Scherzer combination would
`wish to restrict a user's ability to share network
`credential information between any number of their
`devices. That would seem to be opposed to the
`spirit of Scherzer.
` Q. Looking at paragraph 41 of your supplemental
`declaration, that's APPLE-1023, you incorporate the
`two example scenarios that we've been discussing
`from your first declaration here at paragraph 41; is
`that correct?
` (Exhibit APPLE-1023 was marked for
`identification was retained by counsel.)
` A. I incorporate the discussion of the two
`examples of the Brown-Scherzer combination from a
`previous declaration. I incorporate them here by
`reference.
` Q. In both of those examples, does the user's
`smartphone transmit the credentials stored on
`Scherzer's server to the user's tablet?
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` A. In the two examples I used in my original
`declaration in the '451 patent, both examples
`involve the user's smartphone transmitting the
`credential information to the user's tablet.
` Q. In both of those examples, can the user of a
`smartphone also transmit those access credentials
`from the smartphone to other devices?
` A. In the examples that I've described in my
`original declaration, I only illustrated the
`scenario of one device, the user's smartphone,
`transmitting credential information to a second
`device, the user's tablet. But consistent with my
`previous answers, the Brown-Scherzer combination
`would not be appropriate to exclude or prohibit a
`user from doing the same with additional devices
`that the user has and wishes to gain access to the
`internet.
` Q. Your answer mentions other devices the user
`has. Can the smartphone transmit the access
`credentials to other devices that are not associated
`with the user?
` A. Once again, my examples did not consider or
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`21
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`discuss transmission of information to other users,
`but as I noted previously, there's no teaching in
`Brown and there's nothing in Scherzer that prohibits
`a user sharing network credential information with
`other users.
` Q. In both of the examples, after the tablet
`receives the access credentials, what can the tablet
`do with those access credentials?
` A. Well, the tablet can use those access
`credentials to access the internet. That's the
`purpose of the combination.
` Q. Can the user of the tablet transmit those
`access credentials to other devices?
` A. This is something that I haven't worked
`through in preparing my declaration in terms of at
`what point the Scherzer software is -- the
`Brown-Scherzer combination, I should say, is enabled
`on the device that receives the credentials in order
`to be able to or not be able to pass them along.
`But once the user of the tablet has network
`credentials, as I indicated earlier, neither Brown
`nor Scherzer teach restrictions that would prohibit
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`
`22
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`a user or an owner of the tablet from sharing those
`network credentials with others.
` Q. Is there a limit to the number of times the
`tablet can transfer Scherzer's access credentials to
`other devices?
` A. Your question is actually somewhat ill-posed
`because they're not -- you're not receiving, as a
`user of the Brown-Scherzer combination, Scherzer's
`access credentials. You're receiving network access
`credentials to access a particular network. And as
`I've indicated in my previous answer, a user who
`obtains network credentials is not prohibited from
`sharing them.
` For example, I was with my children a few
`days ago at a restaurant here, and my child obtained
`the network -- the access credentials to the
`restaurant wifi network. And he was able to share
`those with me by telling me what the wifi password
`was. And similarly, a waiter at the restaurant was
`able to provide or share the network credentials
`with my child by typing them into my child's device.
` So the ability to share network credentials
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`Conducted on January 18, 2022
`
`23
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`between users exists separately from the
`Brown-Scherzer combination. It's something inherent
`to mobile electronic devices.
` Q. Looking at paragraph 15, now, of your
`supplemental declaration, APPLE-1023, you said that
`Scherzer's overall motivation is to provide a system
`that provides the ability to wirelessly connect --
` A. Just a minute. I want to turn to
`paragraph 15.
` Q. Sure. Let me know when you're there.
` A. Okay. Go ahead.
` Q. If you could actually scroll up to
`paragraph 14, that's where the discussion begins
`about the overall motivation in Scherzer. And
`paragraph 14 states that Scherzer's disclosure is
`best understood through its overall motivation to
`provide a system that provides the ability to
`wirelessly connect to the internet from any
`location.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes, I see that.
` Q. In Scherzer, who benefits from the ability
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`Transcript of Jeremy Cooperstock, Ph.D.
`Conducted on January 18, 2022
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`24
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`to connect to the internet from any location?
` A. Well, as described in the rest of this
`paragraph, the community of users are the
`individuals who benefit from the ability to
`wirelessly connect to the internet from any
`location.
` Q. I'd like to look at Scherzer now, which is
`APPLE-1005.
` (Exhibit APPLE-1005 was marked for
`identification was retained by counsel.)
` Q. And turn to the claims at the end of
`Scherzer. Let me know when you're there.
` A. I am.
` Q. Okay. Looking at claim 1, what steps are
`claimed in the invention of claim 1?
` A. Claim 1 reads "A method of providing network
`access comprising: Receiving a request for access
`information; determining user contribution account
`acceptability; and providing access information."
` Q. Does the method in claim 1 require
`determining user contribution account acceptability?
` A. Claim 1 includes, as I read, determining
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`25
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`user contribution account acceptability, and through
`the descriptions in the specifications of Scherzer,
`that user contribution account acceptability is an
`optional element that is existing in certain
`embodiments, but it is not specified as being
`required for the invention in general.
` Q. Is the user contribution account
`acceptability required in claim 1?
` A. As I stated, it's listed in claim 1. And to
`provide for a general description of the invention,
`Scherzer includes that as one of the steps.
`However, as noted, the user contribution account --
`using the user contribution account is something
`that exists in certain embodiments of Scherzer.
`It's not there as a requirement for the invention as
`the whole.
` Q. Are there any independent claims in Scherzer
`that do not require the user contribution account
`acceptability?
` A. Let me make the analogy with programming
`language. You can have a function that checks
`certain variables to see whether or not the
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`26
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`variables have a certain value associated with them.
`And that function can be provided as a
`general-purpose function to perform operations that
`the developer, the programmer desires. But you can
`cull that function, specifying that one of the tests
`that function carries out is not relevant to the
`purposes for which you're using that general-purpose
`function. And as such, the function exists with the
`ability to test for something, but it can ignore
`that test and say, "For this particular invocation,
`I don't care." And that is how I read claim 1
`wherein the line of determining user contribution
`account acceptability can be simply true.
` In the embodiments where Scherzer is not
`concerned with user account -- user contribution
`account acceptability, it can simply say any test of
`that is automatically going to return a true value.
`And that's providing for the generality of claim 1
`that provides for encompassing all of the possible
`embodiments that are described in the patent.
` Q. Thank you for that analogy. Just to go back
`to the specific claims that we're looking at here,
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`27
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`the independent claims, do all of the independent
`claims in Scherzer require the user contribution
`account acceptability?
` A. Claims 23 -- sorry -- claims 24, I should
`say -- claim 24, claim 43, and claim 44 do not
`determine -- rather, they request -- user
`contribution account acceptability.
` Q. Yes. So the five independent claims all
`require user contribution account acceptability?
` A. No. As I noted there to your previous
`question, three of the claims request user
`contribution -- user contribution account
`acceptability, but they don't require user
`contribution account acceptability.
` Q. Do those -- do those three independent
`claims require a request of user contribution
`account acceptability?
` A. The three claims to which I referred include
`as a sub-element requesting user contribution
`account acceptability -- sorry. 43 also -- no,
`that's already transmitted. It's a request. That's
`correct. And the third one was -- sorry. I didn't
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`28
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`write down the three claim numbers. Oh, 24
`requesting. So all three of those have an element
`requesting user contribution account acceptability.
` Q. Okay. Thank you.
` MS. MURRAY: We have been going for about an
`hour now. Is now a good time to take a break?
` THE WITNESS: Sure.
` MS. MURRAY: Okay.
` (A short break was had.)
`BY MS. MURRAY:
` Q. Dr. Cooperstock, I'd like to look at Exhibit
`APPLE-1025.
` (Exhibit APPLE-1025 was marked for
`identification was retained by counsel.)
` A. Just a moment.
` Q. Just let me know when you're ready.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Looking at pages 68 through 69 of
`this deposition transcript, in response to the
`question, "What happens when too many wireless
`devices are relying on the work wireless access
`point?"
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`29
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` Do you see that question?
` A. On page 68?
` Q. Yes.
` A. I just want to make sure I'm in the right
`file. This is under '982 -- sorry -- under '451?
`I'm --
` Q. '451.
` A. Sorry. I had the wrong exhibit.
` Okay. No, hang on a sec. '451, I've got
`Raleigh for APPLE-1026.
` I'm afraid I'm confused as to which
`exhibit -- under '451?
` Q. It's APPLE-1025.
` A. Oh, 1025. My apologies. Okay.
` Okay. Or is it possibly numbered as well
`KOSS-2022?
` Q. It could be. Let me look into that.
` MS. MURRAY: John, could you put this
`exhibit that's on the screen into the chat.
` PLANET DEPOS REMOTE TECHNICIAN: Sure. I
`can do that. One moment.
` MS. MURRAY: Thank you.
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`30
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` PLANET DEPOS REMOTE TECHNICIAN: Okay. Just
`put in the chat.
` MS. MURRAY: Thank you.
`BY MS. MURRAY:
` Q. Dr. Cooperstock, let me know if you're able
`to access that.
` A. I think rather than me trying to figure out
`the naming or numbering in the different files here,
`I'll use the one that you have on screen right now.
` Q. So the --
` A. It's the deposition transcript of?
` Q. It's the deposition transcript in
`IPR2021-00600, which is also related to the
`'451 patent.
` A. Okay. I think I need to get to the right
`'451.
` Q. It is listed in paragraph 6 of your
`supplemental declaration.
` A. Just here with the numbering.
` Okay. Joseph. Deposition transcript. And
`I have KOSS-2022. But that is 126 pages. And it is
`in 2021-0255.
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