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`1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ____________________________________________________
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`4 ____________________________________________________
`5 SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO. LTD.,
` SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC. AND
`6 APPLE, INC.
`7 Petitioners
`8 V.
`9 NEONODE SMARTPHONE LLC,
`10 Patent Owner
`11 Case IPR2021-00145
` U.S. Patent No. 8,812,993
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` ORAL DEPOSITION OF
`14 MARCUS BÄCKLUND
` NOVEMBER 30, 2021
`15 (Reported Remotely)
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`17 ORAL DEPOSITION OF MARCUS BÄCKLUND, produced as a
`18 witness at the instance of the Petitioners and duly
`19 sworn, was taken in the above styled and numbered cause
`20 on Tuesday, November 30, 2021, from 9:15 a.m. to
`21 10:36 a.m., before DONNA QUALLS, Notary Public in and
`22 for the State of Texas, reported remotely by
`23 computerized stenotype machine pursuant to the Federal
`24 Rules of Civil Procedure and any provisions stated on
`25 the record or attached hereto.
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`Marcus Bäcklund
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`EXHIBIT 1056
`Samsung et al. v. Neonode
`IPR2021-00145
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`1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ____________________________________________________
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`4 ____________________________________________________
`5 SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO. LTD.,
` SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC. AND
`6 APPLE, INC.
`7 Petitioners
`8 V.
`9 NEONODE SMARTPHONE LLC,
`10 Patent Owner
`11 Case IPR2021-00145
` U.S. Patent No. 8,812,993
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` ORAL DEPOSITION OF
`14 MARCUS BÄCKLUND
` NOVEMBER 30, 2021
`15 (Reported Remotely)
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`17 ORAL DEPOSITION OF MARCUS BÄCKLUND, produced as a
`18 witness at the instance of the Petitioners and duly
`19 sworn, was taken in the above styled and numbered cause
`20 on Tuesday, November 30, 2021, from 9:15 a.m. to
`21 10:36 a.m., before DONNA QUALLS, Notary Public in and
`22 for the State of Texas, reported remotely by
`23 computerized stenotype machine pursuant to the Federal
`24 Rules of Civil Procedure and any provisions stated on
`25 the record or attached hereto.
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`Marcus Bäcklund
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`1 A P P E A R A N C E S
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`FOR THE PETITIONERS:
`3 ZACHARY LONEY
` DLA PIPER LLP (US)
`4 303 Colorado Street, Suite 3000
` Austin, Texas 78701-4653
`5 (512) 457-7203
` Zachary.loney@dlapiper.com
`FOR THE RESPONDENTS:
` MARK S. CARLSON
`8 HAGENS BERMAN
` 1301 Second Avenue, Suite 2000
`9 Seattle, Washington 98101
` (206) 623-7292
`10 Markc@hbsslaw.com
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`1 INDEX
`2 PAGE
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` Appearances................................... 2
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`MARCUS BÄCKLUND
`6 Examination by Mr. Loney....................... 4
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` Signature Waived
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` Reporter's Certificate......................... 43
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` EXHIBIT INDEX
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`12 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
` Exhibit 1 Notice of Deposition 7
`13 Exhibit 2 Declaration of Marcus Bäcklund 8
` Exhibit 3 18 USC 1001 9
`14 Exhibit 4 New York Times Article 31
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`1 THE REPORTER: We are on the record.
`2 Today's date is Tuesday, November 30, 2021. The time is
`3 9:15 a.m. This is the oral deposition of Marcus
`4 Bäcklund.
`5 My name is Donna Qualls with Discovery
`6 Resource. I am the court reporter. I'll be
`7 administering the oath and reporting the deposition
`8 remotely by stenographic means.
`9 Would counsels please state their name and
`10 appearance for the record.
`11 MR. LONEY: This is Zachary Loney
`12 representing Petitioners.
`13 MR. CARLSON: And this is Mark Carlson from
`14 Hagens Berman, and I'm representing the Respondents.
`15 MARCUS BÄCKLUND,
`16 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
`17 EXAMINATION
`18 BY MR. LONEY:
`19 Q. Could you please state your full name for the
`20 record, Mr. Bäcklund?
`21 A. Marcus Bäcklund.
`22 Q. And where are you currently located?
`23 A. In Gothenburg, Sweden.
`24 Q. Okay. And are you comfortable with proceeding
`25 with today's deposition in English?
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`1 A. Yes, I am.
`2 Q. And if that changes at any point where you
`3 don't feel comfortable anymore, you'll just let me know
`4 during the deposition, right?
`5 A. Okay.
`6 Q. Okay. Now, you understand you're under oath
`7 during this deposition, right, Mr. Bäcklund?
`8 A. Yes, I do.
`9 Q. Okay. And you understand that the testimony
`10 you're giving today would be as if you were giving it in
`11 a court?
`12 A. Yes, I do.
`13 Q. And you understand that part of that testimony
`14 means that you need to -- you're required to tell the
`15 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
`16 Do you understand that?
`17 A. Yes, I understand.
`18 Q. All right. Have you ever been deposed before?
`19 A. No.
`20 Q. I'll ask you a series of questions and I'll
`21 just ask that you do your best to answer my questions.
`22 You'll do that?
`23 A. Yes. Yes.
`24 Q. All right. If you ever don't understand the
`25 question for any reason, you'll let me know that you
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`1 don't understand or what you don't understand, right?
`2 A. Yes.
`3 Q. Okay. And another thing to understand while
`4 we're doing this is the court reporter will be
`5 transcribing, recording everything that we say, so when
`6 we answer the questions and when I ask the questions, we
`7 need to communicate verbally so that she can pick up and
`8 record what we're saying.
`9 Do you understand that?
`10 A. Yes.
`11 Q. Okay. And another thing for your benefit, just
`12 since this is your first time, you'll have an
`13 opportunity to review the transcript that the court
`14 reporter makes, to review it and correct anything that
`15 may have been recorded incorrectly.
`16 Do you understand that?
`17 A. Okay. Yes.
`18 Q. And then the last question, is there any reason
`19 that you cannot provide truthful, accurate, and complete
`20 testimony today?
`21 A. No.
`22 Q. Okay. If that changes at any point during this
`23 deposition, you'll let me know, right?
`24 A. Okay.
`25 Q. All right. Now, do you understand -- well, do
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`1 you understand what your role is in this current
`2 proceeding?
`3 A. Yeah. I'm -- yes, I think so. I -- I have
`4 made the declaration so, yes, that -- that is my role
`5 here on today's meeting, to confirm this.
`6 Q. Okay. And I've put two documents in the chat
`7 window. I've marked as Exhibit 1 your notice of
`8 deposition.
`9 (Exhibit No. 1 was marked.)
`10 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) When you have that available,
`11 if you could open it up and just let me know when you
`12 are there.
`13 A. The first document or the second?
`14 Q. The first one for now. We'll get to the second
`15 one shortly.
`16 A. Yes, I have it.
`17 Q. Okay. Have you seen this document before?
`18 A. Absolutely. I have even signed it.
`19 Q. Just to make sure that we're on -- we're
`20 talking about the same one, I'm looking at -- the first
`21 page reads "Petitioner's Notice of Deposition of Marcus
`22 Bäcklund."
`23 A. "Declaration of Marcus Bäcklund."
`24 Q. If you look in the chat, the chat window, I
`25 think above, there's two. One is EX 1 and there's
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`1 another document, EX 2. And I'm referring to the one
`2 that was marked as EX 1, Notice of Deposition.
`3 If you don't see that, I can put it back in
`4 there, in the chat again.
`5 A. Oh, okay. Yeah. I thought that was Document 2
`6 but it's Document 1. Yes, that's correct.
`7 Q. Okay. And so going back, Exhibit 1, the Notice
`8 of Deposition, have you seen this document before?
`9 A. No. Not this particular document.
`10 Q. Okay. But you are prepared to provide
`11 testimony today regarding the declaration that you put
`12 in for this --
`13 A. Yes.
`14 Q. Okay. And so now we can move over, and if you
`15 look at what's been marked as Exhibit 2.
`16 (Exhibit No. 2 was marked.)
`17 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) And once you have that open,
`18 let me know.
`19 A. Yes, I have it.
`20 Q. And do you recognize this document?
`21 A. Yes.
`22 Q. Is this the declaration that you submitted for
`23 this IPR proceeding?
`24 A. Yes.
`25 Q. And is that your signature on the last page of
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`1 this document?
`2 A. Yes, it is.
`3 Q. Okay. And just to be thorough, is that your
`4 initials on each of -- the lower right hand corner of
`5 each page of this document?
`6 A. Yes.
`7 Q. Now, staying with the last page, paragraph 17,
`8 you made this declaration under the penalty of perjury.
`9 You understand that, right?
`10 A. Yes.
`11 Q. Do you understand what perjury is?
`12 A. Yes, in kind of basic terms but...
`13 Q. Okay. Yeah. Did you have a chance to --
`14 (Simultaneously speaking.)
`15 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Did you have a chance to read
`16 Section 1001 of Title 18 that's listed in that last
`17 sentence?
`18 A. No, I haven't.
`19 Q. I'll do you a favor. I'll put Exhibit 3 -- is
`20 in the chat right now.
`21 (Exhibit No. 3 was marked.)
`22 A. Okay. I have it.
`23 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) And just because you're new to
`24 this and it's definitely your first time, if you want to
`25 take a second to just read through that and just let me
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`1 know when you're done.
`2 A. Okay. I have read it.
`3 Q. Not trying to trip you up here, just making
`4 sure you have all the information in front of you.
`5 You see what -- the line that has the
`6 parenthetical 2 in front of it that refers to perjury,
`7 including making materially false, fictitious, or
`8 fraudulent statements, right?
`9 You see that?
`10 A. Yes.
`11 Q. You also see the line above that with the
`12 parenthetical 1 where it also includes falsifying,
`13 concealing, or covering up a material fact.
`14 You see that, right?
`15 A. Yes.
`16 Q. Okay. And going back to your declaration in
`17 paragraph 17, you said that all statements made herein
`18 of your knowledge are true.
`19 Do you see that?
`20 A. Yes.
`21 Q. And you stand by that statement, right?
`22 A. Yes, I do.
`23 Q. And then there's a second statement after that
`24 that says, "All statements made on information and
`25 belief are believed to be true to the best of your
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`1 recollection," right?
`2 A. Uh-huh.
`3 Q. And then you stand by that statement as well,
`4 right?
`5 A. Yes.
`6 Q. All right. So there's a distinction where a
`7 statement in your declaration may either be your
`8 personal knowledge or it may be a statement of your
`9 personal belief.
`10 Is that a fair way to explain those two
`11 categories?
`12 MR. CARLSON: Objection; mischaracterizes
`13 the document.
`14 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) This would be a good point
`15 to -- since it's your first time, Marcus. There'll be
`16 some objections that may be lodged by your attorney.
`17 Unless he instructs you not to answer, you are required
`18 to answer the question.
`19 So I will repeat the question again.
`20 Is it fair to -- well, is it fair to say
`21 that your declaration includes statements based on your
`22 personal knowledge as well as statements based on your
`23 belief -- beliefs?
`24 MR. CARLSON: Objection; mischaracterizes
`25 the document. The document speaks for itself.
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`1 A. So should I answer or should --
`2 MR. CARLSON: Oh, I'm sorry, Marcus, you
`3 can go ahead and answer if you --
`4 THE WITNESS: Okay. I was just waiting for
`5 some instructions.
`6 A. Maybe -- obviously English is not my native
`7 language, so I'm not 100 percent sure I understand the
`8 difference here between belief and knowledge.
`9 Could you make that question a little bit
`10 more clear so I understand what you're asking for?
`11 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Well, let's actually -- maybe a
`12 better way to do this is, as we go through your
`13 declaration, maybe we can return to this and figure out
`14 whether the statements you're making are statements that
`15 you actually have personal knowledge of or statements
`16 that you believe to be true.
`17 Does that sound all right?
`18 MR. CARLSON: Objection; mischaracterizes
`19 the document.
`20 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) All right. Mr. Bäcklund, can
`21 you look at paragraph 16 in your declaration?
`22 Let me know when you're there.
`23 A. Uh-huh, yes.
`24 Q. All right. In paragraph 16, you state that
`25 you're no longer an officer or a major investor in
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`1 Neonode.
`2 What do you -- well, are you an investor at
`3 all in Neonode?
`4 A. No.
`5 Q. Are you -- do you have investments in any
`6 Neonode entity?
`7 A. No.
`8 Q. Are you an employee in any Neonode entity?
`9 A. No.
`10 Q. Okay. Do you have any financial interest or
`11 obligation to any Neonode entity?
`12 A. No.
`13 Q. Okay. And just so we're clear, do you
`14 currently own any Neonode stock?
`15 A. No.
`16 Q. You were an officer of Neonode at one point
`17 though, correct?
`18 A. Yes.
`19 Q. Okay. And I believe, in paragraph 7 of your
`20 declaration, you state that you were the CEO from
`21 May 2004 until October of 2005, is that right?
`22 A. Yes, that's correct.
`23 Q. Okay. Did you hold any other position while
`24 you were at Neonode?
`25 A. At Neonode?
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`1 Q. At Neonode.
`2 A. Yeah. No. I think I was also board member
`3 during that time.
`4 Q. During that same time period from 2004 --
`5 A. Yeah. But I'm not 100 percent sure. I think I
`6 could have been a board member.
`7 Q. Okay. So this might be a good time to ask you
`8 this.
`9 Do you know whether you were a board member
`10 between 2004 and 2005 or do you believe that you were a
`11 board member?
`12 A. To the best of my recollection, I think I was a
`13 board member. But I have been attending so many
`14 different boards, so I don't remember 100 percent, no.
`15 Q. And so, kind of making sure I understand, other
`16 than the time period between May 2004 and October 2005,
`17 did you hold any position with Neonode?
`18 MR. CARLSON: Objection; asked and
`19 answered.
`20 And, Marcus, you may answer it again.
`21 A. Could you repeat the question?
`22 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Other than the period of time
`23 from May 2004 until October 2005, did you hold any
`24 position with Neonode?
`25 MR. CARLSON: Objection; asked and
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`1 answered.
`2 A. No position, no.
`3 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Let me see.
`4 Mr. Bäcklund, are you aware of which patent
`5 is at issue in the current proceeding?
`6 A. I'm not aware of exactly which patent. I know
`7 that there are several different patents so I'm not
`8 aware of exactly which one.
`9 Q. Did you review any patents in preparation for
`10 your deposition today?
`11 A. No.
`12 Q. Okay. Do you know of an individual named Craig
`13 Rosenburg who is involved with the current proceeding?
`14 A. No.
`15 Q. Okay. This may -- feel free to ask for
`16 clarification on this. But, Mr. Bäcklund, your
`17 declaration offers your personal -- well, I'm going to
`18 start over, okay?
`19 Mr. Bäcklund, are you offering expert
`20 testimony in your declaration?
`21 MR. CARLSON: Objection; calls for legal
`22 conclusion.
`23 You may answer, Marcus, if you're able.
`24 A. Could you clarify that? What do you mean by
`25 "expert"?
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`1 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Absolutely, absolutely. Your
`2 declaration provides your personal knowledge and
`3 beliefs, correct?
`4 A. My declaration is a summary of, to the best of
`5 my recollection, the different things in the declaration
`6 that I remember.
`7 Q. But you're not offering an opinion regarding
`8 the patent at issue in this proceeding?
`9 A. Again, I -- I stick to my declaration. This
`10 is, to the best of my recollection, what I remember from
`11 this time period regarding this company.
`12 Q. Yes. And I guess the difference being, what
`13 I'm trying to understand is whether you are merely
`14 providing your own personal knowledge or are you trying
`15 to summarize or explain other knowledge that you've
`16 obtained outside of your experience with Neonode?
`17 MR. CARLSON: Objection; it's
`18 incomprehensible, vague, and ambiguous.
`19 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) So let me ask you this,
`20 Mr. Bäcklund.
`21 Are you -- do you consider yourself an
`22 expert regarding the financial or economic aspects of
`23 the mobile phone industry?
`24 A. Again, I think you need to define what you mean
`25 by "expert."
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`1 Q. Well -- and what I'm trying to understand is
`2 whether in putting together your declaration you were
`3 trying to offer -- it's complicated. It's complicated
`4 to explain.
`5 In your declaration, did you ever compare
`6 the Neonode products to the patent at issue in this
`7 proceeding?
`8 MR. CARLSON: Objection; the document
`9 speaks for itself.
`10 A. In my declaration, I have tried to summarize
`11 the -- my -- to the best of my recollection, the
`12 different events that happened during this time period
`13 in this company.
`14 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) And again, your declaration
`15 merely contains your -- your knowledge and your best
`16 recollection of the events described therein, right?
`17 MR. CARLSON: Objection; asked and
`18 answered.
`19 And, Marcus, you may answer that one again
`20 if you're able.
`21 A. Yes. As I just said, I have -- in my
`22 declaration, I have summarized the events that, to the
`23 best of my recollection, I remember from this time
`24 period.
`25 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Okay. Let's go to paragraph 4.
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`1 Paragraph 4 of your declaration, you state
`2 that, "They told us how they developed the user
`3 interface."
`4 Do you see that?
`5 A. Yes.
`6 Q. And so your understanding -- your understanding
`7 of the truth of this sentence is based on what was told
`8 to you by another person, right?
`9 MR. CARLSON: Objection. Again, I think
`10 the question is incomprehensible. It's vague and
`11 ambiguous.
`12 A. I also think that the question is difficult to
`13 understand. But it's -- I mean, they had the prototype
`14 that they -- that was working, that they showed me. So
`15 this is not hearsay or any another information. And I
`16 could then myself swipe and not navigate on this device.
`17 So it's fully working, functional.
`18 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) But when you state that "they
`19 told us that they had developed the user interface," the
`20 fact that they developed it, you understand that to be
`21 true based on what you were told, correct?
`22 MR. CARLSON: Objection. It
`23 mischaracterizes the document.
`24 A. I think I -- it was -- I wrote this because it
`25 was very clear for me, and obviously I wanted to be sure
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`1 that they had developed this. And it was very clear to
`2 me that they had done that, showing me this prototype.
`3 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) And was it clear to you because
`4 they presented evidence? They told you that they
`5 developed it, that's what you're saying here?
`6 A. Yeah, I mean, it was...
`7 Q. Let me ask it a different way.
`8 Did you see -- did you have any knowledge
`9 or insight into the development of the product that you
`10 eventually saw?
`11 A. Absolutely. I mean, not at that point, but
`12 when I invested and stepped in as the CEO, obviously I
`13 had a deep knowledge on the development and everything
`14 so...
`15 Q. All right. Sticking with paragraph 4, talking
`16 about these meetings, you didn't see them develop what
`17 was presented to you at these meetings, right?
`18 A. In Section 4, I described the initial meetings
`19 I had with them. And obviously I haven't stand over
`20 their shoulder looking at them developing this. So at
`21 that point, I had to trust their words, that they had
`22 developed this, that they hadn't steal another one's
`23 product.
`24 Q. So in the initial meeting, they did show you
`25 some product or prototype, right?
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`1 A. Absolutely.
`2 Q. But in those initial meetings, you didn't see
`3 the development that went into those products?
`4 A. Difficult to understand what you are -- what
`5 you want me to answer on.
`6 I mean, what kind of development should I
`7 see at that meeting?
`8 Q. Well, let me ask it this way.
`9 Prior to seeing whatever was displayed to
`10 you at the initial meetings, had you ever seen any
`11 portion of that before?
`12 A. No.
`13 Q. Okay. And the second sentence, you say they
`14 told you that Magnus invented a new optical screen
`15 technology.
`16 Do you see that?
`17 A. Yes, I see.
`18 Q. At the time of these initial meetings, had you
`19 seen any of the development that went into this optical
`20 touch screen technology that they mentioned?
`21 A. And again, what do you mean by "development"?
`22 Q. So --
`23 A. What other development should I have seen, or
`24 not?
`25 Q. And I'm not trying to trip you up. There's a
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`1 distinction which we tried to talk about earlier between
`2 knowing something because you've had personal experience
`3 with it and thinking something to be true based on
`4 information outside of your personal experience.
`5 And so all I'm trying to figure out here is
`6 when you first learned about the user interface and
`7 first learned about the zForce technology, did you
`8 understand the things that you're saying in paragraph 4
`9 because you had personal experience with that or because
`10 somebody gave you that information that formed the basis
`11 of your belief?
`12 Does that make sense, that explanation?
`13 A. Yeah. But in paragraph 4, I described that in
`14 these meetings they showed this prototype, they told me
`15 about the zForce technology, et cetera. If I wouldn't
`16 have invested and stepped in as CEO and very clearly
`17 could verify that all of the development they showed me
`18 in this meeting actually is true, then I could
`19 understand your questions. So if I just met them, they
`20 showed the product and then I never meet them again, I
`21 would probably not be very -- it couldn't be 100 percent
`22 true that they really developed this.
`23 But in this case, there is no doubt at all
`24 that they developed 100 percent of everything they
`25 showed me.
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`1 Q. Why do you say -- well -- okay. So let's look
`2 at the second sentence.
`3 The second sentence says that Magnus
`4 invented a new optical touch screen technology, right?
`5 MR. CARLSON: Objection; mischaracterizes
`6 the document.
`7 And, Marcus, you may answer.
`8 A. Yes.
`9 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) And so the understanding that
`10 Marcus invented the technology --
`11 MR. CARLSON: Magnus.
`12 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Sorry, Magnus. I'm sorry. Let
`13 me do that again.
`14 The understanding that Magnus invented a
`15 new optical touch screen technology, as opposed to
`16 someone else developing it or developing it in tandem
`17 with someone else, your understanding of that is based
`18 on what they told you at these meetings, right?
`19 MR. CARLSON: Objection; document speaks
`20 for itself.
`21 A. Yeah, I refer to what is written in the
`22 document. At this point, Magnus told me that he has
`23 invented this zForce technology.
`24 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Okay.
`25 A. Which they also showed me.
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`1 Q. I think we've done that one enough. Let's
`2 go -- let's move on to paragraph 5.
`3 In 2003, were there other mobile handset
`4 manufacturers besides Nokia, Motorola, Samsung, LG
`5 Electronics, and Siemens?
`6 A. Yes, of course, there were other manufacturers.
`7 But these were probably the major ones at the time.
`8 Q. Do you recall any of the other manufacturers?
`9 A. Other than these listed here?
`10 Q. Uh-huh.
`11 A. No.
`12 Q. And in two-thousand- -- and then the next
`13 sentence.
`14 In 2003, were there any other handsets by
`15 any handset manufacturer that included touch screens?
`16 A. Not to the best of my recollection. There
`17 could have been some handset manufacturers that had some
`18 touch screen capability. But I -- I don't think there
`19 was anyone that didn't have a keyboard.
`20 Q. Just to be clear, I'm not talking about only
`21 touch screen; I'm asking if there were any handsets in
`22 2003 that had touch screens?
`23 A. Yeah, touch ability on the screen. Could have
`24 been.
`25 Q. Were there any handsets in 2003 that you could
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`1 use a stylus to navigate the screen?
`2 A. Probably, yes.
`3 Q. Sorry. Just catching up real quick.
`4 And then, let's look at paragraph 8. Let
`5 me know when you're there.
`6 A. Yes.
`7 Q. Okay. You stated that, to the best of your
`8 recollection, the Neonode handset was offered at a price
`9 roughly equivalent to or approximately equivalent to
`10 1,000 US dollars, right?
`11 A. Yes.
`12 Q. Sitting here today, do you still believe this
`13 statement to be true?
`14 A. Yes, I do.
`15 Q. Did you do anything --
`16 (Simultaneously speaking.)
`17 A. -- very high price.
`18 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Did you do anything in
`19 preparation for your deposition today to refresh your
`20 recollection regarding the price of the Neonode handset?
`21 A. No, I didn't.
`22 Q. Would it surprise you if the actual price
`23 listed for the Neonode handset was less than half of
`24 that amount?
`25 MR. CARLSON: Objection; assumes facts not
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`1 in evidence. Calls for speculation.
`2 A. I mean, as I said, it's -- to the best of my
`3 recollection, the price was obviously in effect. At
`4 that time, I don't know the exchange rate, was
`5 approximately this number. I'm sure that it was very
`6 much -- it was a very high price.
`7 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) And my question was a little
`8 more nuanced.
`9 But specifically, would you be surprised to
`10 learn that the actual price listed for the Neonode
`11 handsets was less than half --
`12 MR. CARLSON: Objection --
`13 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) -- of what you stated here?
`14 MR. CARLSON: Objection; assumes facts not
`15 in evidence.
`16 A. So why are you mentioning the number 500?
`17 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) I'm just curious if you'd be
`18 surprised if today you learned that the actual number
`19 back then was much lower?
`20 MR. CARLSON: Objection; vague and
`21 ambiguous and assumes facts not in evidence.
`22 A. I mean, if you would tell me that the actual
`23 price was $2,000, I would be surprised. So --
`24 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Would you be surprised --
`25 A. This is what I remember, to the best of my
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`1 recollection, that it was approximately around there.
`2 Q. Very sorry for interrupting you.
`3 Would you be surprised if there was
`4 evidence that showed that the actual price was $500?
`5 MR. CARLSON: Objection; asked and
`6 answered.
`7 A. I don't know what we are talking about here if
`8 I get surprised or not. This is exactly what I -- to
`9 the best of my recollection, I clearly stated so...
`10 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Yes. Would you be surprised if
`11 the evidence showed that the price listed was $100?
`12 MR. CARLSON: Objection; assumes facts not
`13 in evidence.
`14 A. I still don't understand what -- why is it
`15 relevant if I get surprised or not. I -- I stick to my
`16 statement here in my declaration.
`17 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) To the best of your
`18 recollection, the handset was offered for $1,000.
`19 A. Approximately, yes.
`20 MR. CARLSON: Objection. The document
`21 speaks for itself. Asked and answered.
`22 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Would you be surprised if the
`23 actual price of the handset was $900?
`24 MR. CARLSON: Objection; assumes facts not
`25 in evidence. This has been asked and answered.
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`1 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) And, Marcus, this isn't a trick
`2 question. It's a yes or no question of whether you
`3 would be surprised to learn that the actual listed price
`4 was much lower than what you recall?
`5 MR. CARLSON: Zac, I get that. Why don't
`6 you just ask him that, that question you just asked me,
`7 and I will allow him to answer one more time. And then
`8 after that it's badgering the witness and I'm going to
`9 instruct him not answer. Okay?
`10 MR. LONEY: My apologies. I actually
`11 directed that to Marcus, not Mark, but --
`12 MR. CARLSON: You did say Mark.
`13 MR. LONEY: I think my voice trailed off at
`14 the end.
`15 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Marcus, understanding that you
`16 recall the price to be approximately 1,000 US dollars,
`17 would you be surprised to learn that the actual listed
`18 price for the handset was much less than that?
`19 MR. CARLSON: Objection; asked and
`20 answered. We're badgering the witness here. I'm going
`21 to allow Mr. Bäcklund to answer this one more time and
`22 then I'm going to ask you to move on.
`23 Mr. Bäcklund, could you answer the
`24 question, please, again.
`25 A. So my answer is again that, to the best of my
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`1 recollection, which clearly states in the declaration, I
`2 remembered the price to be approximately $1,000.
`3 MR. LONEY: Objection; move to strike as
`4 nonresponsive.
`5 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Mr. Bäcklund, I understand that
`6 you recall that the price to be -- was approximately
`7 $1,000 US dollars.
`8 Sitting here today, if you were to learn
`9 that the listed price for the Neonode handset was much
`10 less than what you recall, would you be surprised?
`11 MR. CARLSON: Objection; asked and
`12 answered. You're badgering the witness.
`13 Mr. Bäcklund, I'm going to instruct you not
`14 to answer the question again.
`15 Q. (BY MR. LONEY) Mr. Bäcklund, are you going to
`16 take your attorney's advice and not answer the question?
`17 A. Yes.
`18 Q. Okay. Now, in par
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