1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` ____________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ____________
`SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO. LTD., SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS
` AMERICA, INC., AND APPLE, INC.,
` Petitioners,
` v.
` NEONODE SMARTPHONE LLC,
` Patent Owner,
` ____________
` Case IPR2021-00144
` Patent 8,095,879
` ____________
`
` REMOTE DEPOSITION OF DR. BENJAMIN B. BEDERSON
`
` FRIDAY, JULY 22, 2022, 2022
` 7:58 A.M. P.D.T.
`
` WITNESS SITUATED IN NORTHAMPTON, MASSACHUSETTS
`
` Reported by Megan M. Grossman-Sinclair
` CSR No. 12586
`
`Neonode Smartphone LLC, Exhibit 2044
`Page 2044 - 1
`IPR2021-00144, Samsung Elecs. Co. Ltd. et al. v. Neonode Smartphone LLC
`
`

`

`3
`
` INDEX OF EXAMINATION
`WITNESS: DR. BENJAMIN B. BEDERSON
`
`EXAMINATION PAGE
`By Mr. Hendifar 5
`
` INSTRUCTIONS NOT TO ANSWER
` PAGE LINE
` (None)
`
` INFORMATION REQUESTED
` PAGE LINE
` (None)
`
` * * *
`
`5
`
` NORTHAMPTON, CALIFORNIA;
` FRIDAY, JULY 22, 2022, 2022; 7:58 A.M.
`
` DR. BENJAMIN B. BEDERSON,
` having been first duly sworn,
` testifies as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Bederson.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Thank you very much for your time.
`Just for the record, we are here in connection
`with your supplemental declaration in IPR
`2021-00144 filed as Exhibit 1051.
` (Exhibit No. 1051 was previously
` marked for identification by.)
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Is that your understanding as well?
` A. Yes, it is.
` Q. You had an earlier deposition in
`this matter in connection with your first
`declaration. Do you recall that?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. And in connection with that
`
`
`
`2 (Pages 2 to 5)2 (Pages 2 to 5)
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` APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL
` (All appearances via Zoom Videoconference)
`
` For Petitioner:
` DLA PIPER
` TIFFANY MILLER, ESQ.
` 401 B Street
` Suite 1700
` San Diego, California 92101
` T: (619) 699-3445
` tiffany.miller@dlapiper.com
` THE HOLT LAW FIRM
` DAVID HOLT, ESQ.
` 1432 Edinger Ave
` Suite 130
` Tustin, California 92780
` T: (714) 730-3999
` Holt@fr.com
` For Patent Owner:
` LOWENSTEIN AND WEATHERWAX
` PARHAM HENDIFAR, ESQ.
` 1016 Pico Boulevard
` T: (310) 307-4500
` Santa Monica, California 90405
` Hendifar@lowensteinweatherwax.com
`
`2
`
`4
`
` INDEX TO EXHIBITS
`MARKED PAGE
`Exhibit 2043 Mac OS 9: The Missing 7
` Manual, The book that
` should have been in the
` box.
`
` PRIOR EXHIBITS REFERENCED
` Exhibit Page
` 1051 5
`
` * * *
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`Neonode Smartphone LLC, Exhibit 2044
`Page 2044 - 2
`IPR2021-00144, Samsung Elecs. Co. Ltd. et al. v. Neonode Smartphone LLC
`
`

`

`6
`deposition we went through some of the basic rules
`of depositions in IPRs. I don't want to waste
`your time repeating those. Do you have any
`questions, comments, or concerns about the
`procedure of this deposition?
` A. No, I do not.
` Q. Okay. Great. What did you do to
`prepare for your deposition today?
` A. I reviewed documents and talked
`with counsel.
` Q. What documents did you review?
` A. I'm not sure that I can recall
`every document that I reviewed, but I recall at
`least some of them, so if you would like I can
`tell you the ones I remember.
` Q. I will rephrase my question. Did
`you review any documents that are not cited in
`your declaration Exhibit 1051 in connection with
`preparing for today's deposition?
` A. I believe there were some documents
`that were created after my first report, so I
`reviewed those. I think they may have included a
`patent owner response, an expert's response, and
`that expert deposition transcript.
` Q. So my question was about documents
`
`8
`
`it.
` A. Okay. I see it.
` Q. So we will mark this document as
`Exhibit 2043. Have you seen this document before?
` A. Sorry. Just give me one second. I
`need to change the way I am accessing the
`document. I don't have a specific recollection of
`it.
` Q. Can you identify what this document
`appears to be?
` A. It appears to be an excerpt from a
`book called Mac OS 9: The Missing Manual, The
`book that should have been in the box.
` Q. May I please refer you to Page 9,
`pdf Page 9, of this document.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Do you see on the top portion, it
`talks about the author of the book?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. And have you heard of David Pogue,
`the author of Exhibit 2043, prior to today's
`deposition?
` MS. MILLER: Objection.
` THE WITNESS: Yes, I have.
`
`7
`
`that are not cited in your second declaration.
`So --
` A. I'm sorry, I misunderstood.
` Q. No worries. Did you review any
`documents that are not cited in your second
`declaration in connection with preparing for your
`deposition today?
` A. I can't think of any.
` Q. Who drafted your second
`declaration?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I would say it was a
`collaborative effort between me and counsel and
`they represent my considered opinion. And I think
`that's enough.
` MR. HENDIFAR: Sure. I am going to
`put a document in the chat box which we will mark
`as Exhibit 2043. And for the court reporter's
`benefit this one has to be marked because it's not
`on record as of yet.
` (Exhibit No. 2043 was marked for
` identification and is attached
` hereto.)
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Please let me know when you have
`
`9
`
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Who is David Pogue?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; scope.
` THE WITNESS: I don't think that I
`referenced David Pogue in my reports, but I
`recognize him as being a writer.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Okay. "About the Author" section
`says David Pogue is an award-winning Macworld
`magazine columnist. What does that mean?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: It appears to be
`describing David Pogue as a magazine columnist for
`Macworld and appears to describe him as someone
`that has won awards.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Is it fair to describe David Pogue
`as a reputable author of various user guides and
`manuals for computers such as Macs?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form,
`scope.
` THE WITNESS: So that's not
`something I analyzed for my reports, but based on
`my general knowledge of David Pogue, I would say
`yes.
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`
`3 (Pages 6 to 9)3 (Pages 6 to 9)
`
`Neonode Smartphone LLC, Exhibit 2044
`Page 2044 - 3
`IPR2021-00144, Samsung Elecs. Co. Ltd. et al. v. Neonode Smartphone LLC
`
`

`

`10
`
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. And may I please refer you to
`Page 4 of the pdf in the Exhibit 2043.
` A. Okay.
` Q. This document has a copyright date
`of 2000; correct?
` A. I see on this page that it says
`"Copyright 2000," and then it says "March 2000:
`First edition."
` Q. Does the year 2000 comport with
`your recollection for approximate release date of
`Mac Operating System 9?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form,
`scope.
` THE WITNESS: I don't believe
`that's something I considered in my reports, but
`based on my general recollection, that seems to be
`generally consistent with what I remember Mac OS9
`being available.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Thank you. Now, may I please refer
`you to pdf Page 18 which is native page number, in
`the document, 105.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And on top of the page there is a
`
`12
`
`grayed-out version of the same icon version;
`correct?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: This is not a
`document that I have analyzed for my reports. I
`don't think I have seen it before today. So I am
`really not completely sure what it is
`representing. I do see in Figure 6-3 there is an
`icon labeled "Read Me" and there is another icon
`labeled "Read Me" that is a -- looks similar to
`the first icon, but it appears to be partially
`transparent.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Okay. And is it fair to state that
`on Page 1 of 5 of Exhibit 2043, at least what is
`described or shown in Figure 6-3, is that the
`visual representation of the icon being moved is a
`partially transparent version of the same icon?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form,
`scope.
` THE WITNESS: So, as I said, I
`haven't seen this document before today and I have
`not analyzed it and I haven't seen any other
`sections of this document except for this half of
`a page. So I have told you what I see in this
`
`11
`section titled "Using the Application Palette For
`Drag and Drop." Do you see that?
` A. I do.
` Q. And in this section the book
`explains that you can open the file by dragging
`and dropping it on the application palette;
`correct?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Would you mind
`repeating your question?
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Sure. In this section of the book,
`the book explains that -- and I am going to quote
`from the description of figure 6-3. The book
`explains that:
` "To open a document using a
` program that didn't create it,
` drag the document icon from the
` desktop onto the corresponding
` tile of the Application palette."
` Correct?
` A. You read that sentence correctly.
` Q. Now, during the dragging operation
`described on Page 105 of Exhibit 2043, the visual
`representation of the icon being moved is a
`
`13
`
`figure and I hear your question and it may be, but
`I just don't have an opinion about that.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. What other information do you need
`to opine on what Figure 6-3 of Page 105 in
`Exhibit 2043 is showing?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form,
`scope.
` THE WITNESS: Well, to form an
`opinion about what is being described here, I
`would want to look at the rest of the document to
`see what else it might say about this kind of
`interaction and I would want more time to reflect
`on it.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. I have included the entirety of
`Chapter 6 so please feel free to take a look if
`you need to. Because my question is pretty
`simple. I am going to wait a few minutes for you
`to review and then let me know what else you might
`need to review.
` A. Okay. I will review the rest of
`Chapter 6.
` (Document reviewed by witness.)
` THE WITNESS: Okay. I have
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`4 (Pages 10 to 13)4 (Pages 10 to 13)
`
`Neonode Smartphone LLC, Exhibit 2044
`Page 2044 - 4
`IPR2021-00144, Samsung Elecs. Co. Ltd. et al. v. Neonode Smartphone LLC
`
`

`

`14
`reviewed other sections of this document. Can you
`repeat the question one more time for me, please?
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Of course. Is it correct that in
`Figure 6-3 of Exhibit 2043 it shows opening a file
`by dragging its icon and dropping it to the
`corresponding tile of the application palettes;
`the visual representation shown during the
`dragging is a partially transparent copy of the
`icon for the file?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form,
`scope.
` THE WITNESS: So, as I said, this
`is a document that I have not considered before
`sitting here today. So while I have not formed
`any considered opinions about it, I do hear your
`question, what you are asking, and as I said
`before, Figure 6-3 shows how a document can be
`opened using a program that didn't create it, and
`it's described as occurring by dragging the
`document icon from the desktop onto the
`corresponding tile of the application palette.
` But I really just don't have any
`further opinions about this document. I do see
`that throughout this document it discloses
`
`16
`
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Thank you. Now, may I please refer
`you to Page 26 of the pdf in Exhibit 2043, which
`is Page 245, native page number, of this document.
` A. Okay.
` Q. I would like to specifically direct
`your attention to Figure 14-2. As before, I have
`included the entirety of Chapter 14, so if you
`need to review anything, please feel free.
` My question is, does Figure 14-2 of
`Exhibit 2043 show a drag-and-drop operation where
`a partially transparent version of the icon is
`shown as being dragged during the drag-and-drop
`operation?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form,
`scope.
` (Document reviewed by witness.)
` THE WITNESS: Okay. I have
`reviewed sections of this chapter. Would you mind
`repeating the question, please?
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Of course. Looking at Figure 14-2,
`does this figure show, as far as you can see on
`the figure, a drag-and-drop operation where the
`icon being dragged -- strike that. I will
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`multiple ways of dragging visual elements
`including dragging the outline of an element that
`I saw on Page 25 of the pdf.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Thank you. But I don't believe you
`answered my question. Is it correct that in
`Figure 6-3 what is shown is that a partially
`transparent copy of an icon is being dragged to
`the corresponding tile?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form,
`scope.
` THE WITNESS: So, as I said, this
`is not a document that I have considered before so
`I don't have an informed opinion about it, but
`sitting here today, as I said, Figure 6-3 does
`appear to show the opening of a document using a
`program that didn't create it. And that occurs by
`dragging the document icon from the desktop onto
`the corresponding tile.
` Furthermore, I see in Figure 6-3
`there is one icon labeled "Read Me" and another
`icon that looks like it may be a transparent
`version of that "Read Me" icon that is over the
`Microsoft Word button, but beyond that I just
`don't have an opinion about how this works.
`
`17
`
`rephrase the question.
` Looking at Figure 14-2 of
`Exhibit 2043, does this figure appear to show a
`drag-and-drop operation where a partially
`transparent copy of the icon being dragged is
`visually shown during the drag operation?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form,
`scope.
` THE WITNESS: So, again, this is
`not a document that I have seen before today, as
`far as I know, and I have not considered this for
`my report, so I really don't have any opinions
`about what it discloses.
` Sitting here today I can see in
`Figure 14-2 it describes that you can drag
`Internet location files from the desktop directly
`into your bookmarks list. So this figure may be
`representing that dragging operation and the
`figure seems to show an icon on the right labeled
`www.Macworld.com, and then another icon in the
`middle that looks like it may be a transparent
`version of the first icon, and that middle icon is
`under the mouse cursor.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Thank you very much. Would a
`
`
`
`5 (Pages 14 to 17)5 (Pages 14 to 17)
`
`Neonode Smartphone LLC, Exhibit 2044
`Page 2044 - 5
`IPR2021-00144, Samsung Elecs. Co. Ltd. et al. v. Neonode Smartphone LLC
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`

`

`18
`POSITA understand that it is possible to perform a
`drag-and-drop operation such that you would drag
`an icon from a first open window and drop it into
`a second open window?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: So I don't think
`that's something I specifically analyzed. I do
`understand that there are a number of different
`ways that drag-and-drop can operate. I think you
`generally can define source objects and locations
`that can be dragged and targets and destinations
`that can be -- an icon can be dropped onto.
` I don't think I specifically
`analyzed whether that can go from an icon from one
`window to a target and -- sorry -- a source in one
`window to a target in another window, but it may
`well be possible.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Have you ever performed a
`drag-and-drop to move a file from one window to
`another on a computer?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Sorry, you broke up a
`little bit. I didn't quite get the full question.
`
`20
`icon that is being dragged or something else. So
`the answer is -- I have to change my answer. The
`answer is I'm not sure.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. So sitting here now you are not
`sure if it is possible to drag an icon of one
`window into another window?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, that's a broad
`question. You are talking about a possible piece
`of software on any possible computer in any time
`frame, so it may well be possible, but I think the
`first version of the question was do I recall
`doing that, and the answer is I don't have a
`specific recollection of dragging an icon, because
`I just don't recall exactly how dragging of things
`work exactly on any particular operating system in
`a particular environment. It's just not something
`I looked at so I don't have a specific opinion
`about how that works.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Is it possible to drag an icon from
`a window into the desktop of a computer?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: So, again, I just
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`
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Of course. Have you ever performed
`a moving of a file task by dragging the file from
`one window and dropping it into another window in
`a computer?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Are you asking about
`a specific time frame or ever in my life?
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Ever in your life.
` A. Yes. I believe I have at some
`point in my life dragged an icon from one window
`to another window.
` Q. So it is possible to drag and drop
`an icon from one open window into another open
`window; correct?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: As I say that, I am
`thinking about current operating systems and I
`believe it's possible to do -- to drag an icon
`from one window to another window -- actually, as
`I sit here now, the more I think about it the less
`clear I am. I would have to do some analysis for
`it because I am really not sure exactly how it
`works because I don't know if it is the actual
`
`21
`
`don't know what it is you are asking about. I
`don't know when you are asking about, what
`computer, what operating system, what context, if
`it's an application, if it's custom software. I
`just don't know what the scenario is that you are
`asking about.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Okay. In today's Mac operating
`systems, is it possible to drag an icon from an
`open window into the desktop?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form,
`scope.
` THE WITNESS: That's not something
`I analyzed and I just don't recall precisely how
`the dragging of icons works on even today's
`Macintosh operating systems, so I don't have an
`opinion about that.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. So sitting here now you do not have
`an opinion as to whether it's possible to perform
`a drag-and-drop operation of an icon by dragging
`it from an open window and dropping it into a
`desktop?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Again, as I said, I
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`6 (Pages 18 to 21)6 (Pages 18 to 21)
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`Neonode Smartphone LLC, Exhibit 2044
`Page 2044 - 6
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`22
`have not analyzed how today's Macintosh operating
`system movement of elements on the desktop works
`specifically. I know it supports a drag-and-drop
`feature. I just don't remember precisely what the
`interaction is with an icon and if it's an icon
`that is moved or something else. So the answer
`is, no, I don't have an opinion.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Okay. In your opinion what is the
`plain meaning of the term "gliding" in the context
`of Claim 1 of the 879 patent?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I brought a copy of
`the 879 patent with me on paper. Do you mind if I
`refer to that?
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. You can refer to any clean copy of
`the file documents in this matter. Is it a clean
`copy?
` A. Yes, it is.
` Q. Please do.
` A. Thank you.
` (Document reviewed by witness.)
` THE WITNESS: I don't think I
`offered any specific definition or construction of
`
`24
`
`of the word "gliding" in Claim 1?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. And can you tell me what your
`understanding of the customary and ordinary
`meaning of "gliding" is?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, as I just said,
`I did not offer a construction or particular
`definition of that term, so I don't have a
`definition of that term to give you. What I did
`do is analyze that term according to its ordinary
`and customary meaning in the context of the claim.
`So I would be happy to talk to you about my
`analysis of that term in the context of the claim,
`but, as I just said, I don't have a particular
`definition to give you.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Fine. And I am not asking you for
`a definition. I am asking you to explain to me
`what that ordinary and customary understanding of
`"gliding" is. Are you saying that you are not
`able to tell me what your understanding of the
`ordinary and customary meaning of "gliding" is?
`
`23
`
`the word "gliding," so I don't have a specific
`answer for you about what it means. I see in
`Claim 1, for example, it is used as part of a
`description of a multi-step operation where it
`explains about the object gliding along the
`touch-sensitive area away from the touch location.
`That's part of what it says about gliding. And I
`analyzed the term "gliding" in that context.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Well, in Paragraph 14 of your
`second declaration, you explained that you applied
`the ordinary and customary meaning of the claim as
`understood by a POSITA; correct?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: In Paragraph 14 of my
`supplementary report I said that I understand from
`counsel that this includes construing the claim in
`accordance with the ordinary and customary meaning
`and scope of such claim as understood by one of
`ordinary skill in the art, a POSA, at the time of
`the invention. So I think that's consistent with
`your question.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. In analyzing the 879 patent, did
`you understand the customary and ordinary meaning
`
`25
`
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, to tell you
`what my understanding of that term means is
`tantamount to a definition, which is not something
`that I have offered. What I can do is explain to
`you my analysis of the claim including that term.
`And in doing so I can help you to understand my
`understanding of that term.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. What is the difference between the
`plain meaning of gliding a pen as opposed to
`dragging a pen?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I don't recall
`performing an analysis distinguishing between any
`possible difference in the meanings of the terms
`"gliding" and "dragging" in my reports. What I
`did was generally apply or analyze the prior art
`and other related documents to the claim term. So
`as before, I can be happy to share with you my
`opinions that I actually performed, but I don't
`think that is an opinion that I considered
`specifically.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. What is the difference between the
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`7 (Pages 22 to 25)7 (Pages 22 to 25)
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`Neonode Smartphone LLC, Exhibit 2044
`Page 2044 - 7
`IPR2021-00144, Samsung Elecs. Co. Ltd. et al. v. Neonode Smartphone LLC
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`

`26
`plain meaning of the term gliding a pen and moving
`a pen?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: So, similarly, I
`don't think I performed an analysis of any
`potential distinction between the term gliding a
`pen and moving a pen in any of my reports, so
`that's not an opinion I have. I would be happy to
`talk about the analysis that I did do regarding
`any of the terms that I analyzed.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. May I please refer you to
`Paragraph 103 of your declaration, second
`declaration. I apologize if I was not clear.
` A. Okay. I am at Paragraph 103 of my
`second declaration.
` Q. Okay. And at Paragraph 103 of your
`second declaration you refer to a video that is
`filed as Exhibit 1065 as showing a Sony PalmTop
`PTC-500 from 1990; correct?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I think Exhibit 1065
`explains or describes something about the
`interface in a brochure from the Sony PalmTop
`PTC-500 from 1990.
`
`28
`
`very similar user interface to Hirayama 307. I
`did not describe anything about intent.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. But I am asking you about what you
`believe, so if you would answer my question. Do
`you believe that the Sony PalmTop PTC-500 from
`1990 was intended to implement the Hirayama 307
`reference as written?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: It may. That's not
`something I formed an opinion about. I don't have
`an opinion now.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. May I please refer you to Claim 1
`of the 879 patent?
` A. Okay.
` Q. The last clause says:
` "...wherein the
` representation of the function is
` not relocated or duplicated
` during the gliding."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. Is a partially transparent copy of
`an icon a, quote, "duplication," end quote, of the
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`
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Good. Thank you. Now, do you have
`any independent basis for believing, if you do,
`that the Sony PalmTop PTC-500 from 1990 was
`intended to implement the Hirayama 307 reference
`as written?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you
`mean by independent -- was it opinion? But my
`description in Paragraph 103 is based on
`Exhibit 1065.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Do you believe that the Sony
`PalmTop PTC-500 from 1990 was intended to
`implement the Hirayama 307 reference as written?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. The question is, do you believe
`that the Sony PalmTop PTC-500 from 1990 was
`intended to implement the Hirayama 307 reference
`as written?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, my opinion is
`what I said in Paragraph 103, which is that the
`Sony PalmTop PTC-500 from 1990 appears to have a
`
`29
`icon as the term "duplication" is used in Claim 1?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form,
`scope.
` THE WITNESS: I don't believe
`that's something I formed an opinion about. I
`didn't need to because the art that I relied on
`does not have any relocating or duplicating.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. So sitting here now you do not have
`an opinion as to whether a partially transparent
`copy of an icon is a duplication of that icon as
`that term is used in Claim 1?
` A. Well, my opinion is in my report,
`but I don't recall forming a specific opinion
`about that issue. I don't have any additional
`opinions about it sitting here today.
` Q. In your opinion, looking at the
`same "wherein" clause of Claim 1, if the
`representation of a function is -- strike that.
`Strike the question.
` Looking at Claim 1, if I may please
`refer you to the clause that states "wherein the
`representation" -- I'm sorry.
` May I please refer to Claim 1, the
`clause that's stated:
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`8 (Pages 26 to 29)8 (Pages 26 to 29)
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`Neonode Smartphone LLC, Exhibit 2044
`Page 2044 - 8
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`30
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` "...wherein the function is
` activated by a multi-stip
` operation comprising"...steps
` roman numeral 1 and 2.
` A. Okay.
` Q. May I also refer your attention to
`Page 29 of your second declaration, please, and
`specifically the last sentence on Page 29.
` A. Are you referring to the sentence
`that starts, "Thus, in order to access the window
`for the purchase function..."?
` Q. Correct. And specifically on the
`last line you state, and continue to the next
`page:
` "...the dragging operation is
` insufficient on its own to
` activate the corresponding
` function."
` A. Okay.
` Q. Is it your opinion that Claim 1 of
`the 879 patent required by the activation of the
`representation of the function be complete at the
`end of the gliding-away step of the multi-step
`operation without any further action by the user?
` MS. MILLER: Objection; form.
`
`32
`
`function with those two steps.
` In the sentence that we were
`looking at on Page 29 of my report, that is one
`portion of one sentence of many pages analyzing my
`opinion about Hoshino, which I think stands on its
`own.
`BY MR. HENDIFAR:
` Q. Let me rephrase the question
`differently. Maybe I can get a more clear
`response.
` So are you stating that you do not
`have an opinion as to whether Claim 1 would
`encompass activating a function by a multi-step
`operation that includes Steps 1 and 2 but also
`includes additional steps?
` MS. MILLER: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, my opinion
`analyzes the claim as it's written including this
`"wherein" clause as well as the rest of the claim.
`It has other requirements as well. So it's
`certainly not only those two -- the multi-step
`operation has just those two steps, but the claim
`as a whole has other requirements.
` I don't think I formed an
`opinion -- I don't recall forming an opinion about
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