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`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
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`Vijay K. Madisetti, Ph.D.
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`--------------------
`APPLE, INC.
`Petitioner,
`v.
`MASIMO CORPORATION,
`Patent Owner.
`--------------------
`IPR2020-01722
`Patent 10,470,695
`---------------------
` Deposition of VIJAY K. MADISETTI, Ph.D.
`Conducted Virtually
`Friday, September 10, 2021
`12:07 p.m.
`
`Pages: 1-67
`Reported by: Matthew Goldstein, RPR, RMR
`______________________________________________________
`DIGITAL EVIDENCE GROUP
`1730 M Street, NW, Suite 812
`Washington, D.C. 20036
`(202) 232-0646
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2021
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`202-232-0646
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`APPLE 1022
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2020-01722
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`1
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`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
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`Vijay K. Madisetti, Ph.D.
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`--------------------
`APPLE, INC.
`Petitioner,
`v.
`MASIMO CORPORATION,
`Patent Owner.
`--------------------
`IPR2020-01722
`Patent 10,470,695
`---------------------
` Deposition of VIJAY K. MADISETTI, Ph.D.
`Conducted Virtually
`Friday, September 10, 2021
`12:07 p.m.
`
`Pages: 1-67
`Reported by: Matthew Goldstein, RPR, RMR
`______________________________________________________
`DIGITAL EVIDENCE GROUP
`1730 M Street, NW, Suite 812
`Washington, D.C. 20036
`(202) 232-0646
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2021
`
`202-232-0646
`
`APPLE 1022
`Apple v. Masimo
`IPR2020-01722
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`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
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`Vijay K. Madisetti, Ph.D.
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`Page 2
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` Deposition of VIJAY K. MADISETTI, Ph.D.,
`conducted virtually:
` Pursuant to Notice, before Matthew Goldstein,
`RPR, RMR, Notary Public in and for the State of
`Maryland.
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER, APPLE, INC.:
`DANIEL D. SMITH, ESQUIRE
`FISH & RICHARDSON, P.C.
`1717 Main Street
`Suite 5000
`Dallas, Texas 75201
`214.292.4071
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER, MASIMO
`CORPORATION:
`BEN KATZENELLENBOGEN, ESQUIRE
`SHANNON LAM, ESQUIRE
`JOHN GROVER, ESQUIRE
`KNOBBE MARTENS
`2040 Main Street
`Irvine, California 92614
`949.760.0404
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`BILLY FAHNERT - VIDEOGRAPHER/EXHIBIT
` TECHNICIAN
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` C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION OF VIJAY K. MADISETTI, PH.D. PAGE
`By MR. SMITH 6
`
` E X H I B I T S
` (Attached)
`DEPOSITION EXHIBIT PAGE
` Exhibit 1001 Previously Marked, U.S. Patent 12
` No. 10,470,695 B2
` Exhibit 1003 Previously Marked, Declaration 14
` of Dr. Brian W. Anthony
` Exhibit 1006 Previously Marked, U.S. Patent 13
` No. 6,343,223 B1
` Exhibit 1014 Previously Marked, U.S Patent 13
` No. 9,392,946 B1
` Exhibit 1015 Previously Marked, Skin 13
` Reflectance Pulse Oximetry: In
` Vivo Measurements From The
` Forearm And Calf, Y. Mendelson,
` Ph.D. and M.J. McGinn, MSc
` Exhibit 1016 Previously Marked, Pub. No. WO 14
` 2011051888, Ackermans, et al.
` Exhibit 2001 Previously Marked, Declaration 12
` of Vijay K. Madisetti, Ph.D. in
` IPR2020-01722
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on the record.
`This is the remote video deposition of Dr. Vijay
`K. Madisetti regarding IPR 2020-01722. In the
`matter of Apple, Inc., versus Masimo Corporation
`in the United States Patent and Trademark Office
`before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board.
` My name is Billy Fahnert. I am the
`video technician today. The court reporter is
`Matthew Goldstein. We are here on behalf of
`Digital Evidence Group.
` Today's date is September 10th, 2021.
`The time is 12:07 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time.
` All parties have stipulated to the
`witness being sworn in remotely.
` Will counsel please identify yourselves
`for the record, and then the witness will be sworn
`in.
` MR. SMITH: Dan Smith for petitioner,
`Apple.
` MR. KATZENELLENBOGEN: Benjamin
`Katzenellenbogen from Knobbe Martens for patent
`owner Masimo.
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
`Whereupon,
` VIJAY K. MADISETTI, PH.D.,
`being first duly sworn or affirmed to testify to
`the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
`truth, was examined and testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PETITIONER
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Madisetti. How are
`you?
` A. Good afternoon, sir. How are you?
` Q. I'm doing well.
` Could you please state your full name
`for the record?
` A. It's Vijay K. Madisetti.
` Q. And you are aware that you're being
`deposed in the inter partes review proceeding
`numbered IPR 2020-01722; correct?
` A. Yes, I am.
` Q. Have you been deposed before?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I won't ask how many times because I
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`know it's a lot.
` So during this deposition, you
`understand that I'm going to be asking you
`questions and you're going to be answering them
`under oath; correct?
` A. I do.
` Q. And you understand that willful false
`statements made during this deposition are
`punishable by fine or imprisonment or both;
`correct?
` A. I do.
` Q. And the court reporter will be
`attempting to transcribe everything we say. So
`it's important that we wait for each other to
`finish asking or answering a question before the
`other begins talking.
` Do you understand this?
` A. I do.
` Q. And you understand that every answer
`needs to be verbal; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is there any reason, such as being under
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`unusual stress, physical or mental condition, or
`being under the influence of any substances that
`would prevent you or limit you today from giving
`truthful answers to my questions?
` A. There are none.
` Q. Okay. During today's remote deposition,
`we'll be discussing various exhibits from the case
`record. When we begin discussing a particular
`exhibit, I'll have the exhibit placed in the share
`directory for you to download. If you would like
`to refer to any exhibit that I have not yet
`provided, please ask, and we will provide it in
`the same manner.
` Does that work?
` A. That sounds good.
` Q. Okay. And please refer only to the
`exhibits provided and not to any personal copies.
`Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. And you're using a computer to access
`this video deposition today; correct?
` A. Yes, I am.
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` Q. Do you have any messaging programs
`running that would enable you to connect -- excuse
`me --
` A. No.
` Q. -- communicate with others during the
`course of the deposition, such as e-mail or an
`instant messaging client?
` A. None.
` Q. Okay. What did you do to prepare for
`this deposition?
` A. I reviewed my declaration.
` Q. Did you review any documents?
` A. I reviewed --
` Q. Other than your declaration, sorry.
` A. I reviewed some of the exhibits.
` Q. Do you recall which ones?
` A. Just the ones I referenced; for example,
`Chin, for example, Sarantos.
` Q. Okay. And about how long did you spend
`preparing for today's deposition?
` A. I don't recall the exact hours, but I
`would say a few hours.
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` Q. And other than counsel, did you speak to
`anyone else to prepare for this deposition?
` A. No, but I had -- I had a couple of -- a
`very short call with one other person who was not
`counsel.
` Q. And who was that person?
` A. He was Dr. Vikrant Sharma,
`V-I-K-R-A-N-T; Sharma, S-H-A-R-M-A.
` Q. And what's Dr. Sharma's relation to this
`case, to your knowledge?
` A. Only peripherally. I had asked him to
`conduct some tests for me at my direction, and I
`had a brief question for him.
` Q. And were those tests the ones that are
`described in your declaration?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. All right. Let's -- I'm going to
`go ahead and introduce -- as we did in the
`previous deposition, I'm going to introduce, you
`know, kind of all the exhibits upfront, and then
`we can refer to them in short names.
` Does that make sense?
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` A. That sounds good.
` Q. Okay.
` MR. SMITH: So I'd like to refer to
`Exhibit 2001. Actually --
` THE WITNESS: So I see -- I see three
`exhibits.
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. What do you see on the share?
` A. I see Exhibit 2001, Exhibit 1006, and
`Exhibit 1014.
` Q. Okay.
` MR. SMITH: Let's -- can we go off the
`record for just a second?
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Sure. We are going
`off the record. The time is 12:13.
` (Recess from the record.)
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the
`record. The time is 12:14.
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. And, Dr. Madisetti, I just wanted to
`confirm you're downloading the exhibits; correct?
` A. Yes, I am. One second. Almost there.
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` Okay. I have them downloaded, Counsel.
` (Deposition Exhibit 2001, Previously
`Marked.)
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. Okay. If you could open Exhibit 2001.
` A. Yes, I've opened Exhibit 2001.
` Q. And do you recognize this exhibit?
` A. Yes, it is my declaration of Vijay K.
`Madisetti. And it's dated August 9th, 2021.
` Q. Okay. And during this deposition, can
`we refer to that as the declaration?
` A. Yes.
` (Deposition Exhibit 1001, Previously
`Marked.)
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. Could you open Exhibit 1001, please?
` A. Yes, I've opened Exhibit 1001.
` Q. And do you recognize this exhibit?
` A. Yes. It's the U.S. Patent 10,470,695.
` Q. And during this deposition, can we refer
`to this exhibit as the '695 patent?
` A. Yes.
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` (Deposition Exhibit 1006, Previously
`Marked.)
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. Could you open Exhibit 1006?
` A. Yes, I've opened Exhibit 1006.
` Q. And do you recognize this exhibit?
` A. Yes. It's the U.S. Patent 6,343,223.
` Q. And for the purposes of this deposition,
`can we refer to that exhibit as Chin?
` A. Yes, we can.
` (Deposition Exhibit 1014, Previously
`Marked.)
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. Okay. Could you open Exhibit 1014,
`please?
` A. Okay. I have opened that.
` Q. Okay. Do you recognize this exhibit?
` A. Yes. It's U.S. Patent 9,392,946.
` Q. And for the purposes of this deposition,
`can we refer to this exhibit as Sarantos?
` A. Yes, we can.
` (Deposition Exhibit 1015, Previously
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`Marked.)
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. Could you open Exhibit 1015, please?
` A. Yes, I've opened Exhibit 1015.
` Q. And do you recognize this exhibit?
` A. Yes. This is the paper by Mendelson and
`McGinn.
` Q. For the purposes of this deposition, can
`we refer to that exhibit as Mendelson?
` A. Yes.
` (Deposition Exhibit 1016, Previously
`Marked.)
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. Could you open Exhibit 1016, please?
` A. Yes. This is the PCT application by
`Ackermans.
` Q. Okay. And for the purposes of this
`deposition, can we refer to this exhibit as
`Ackermans?
` A. Yes, we can.
` (Deposition Exhibit 1003, Previously
`Marked.)
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`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. Okay. And, last, could you open
`Exhibit 1003, please?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And do you recognize this exhibit?
` A. Yes. It's the declaration of Dr. Brian
`W. Anthony.
` Q. And for the purposes of this deposition,
`can we refer to this exhibit as Dr. Anthony's
`declaration?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And I forgot to mention off the
`top, I will try to take a break every hour. If
`you need a break at any time, please let me know.
`And if I go over, please let me know, as well.
`But I will try not to.
` A. Sounds good.
` Q. Okay. So let's start with your
`declaration. Let's go to paragraph 36 of your
`declaration. And let me know when you're there.
` A. Yes, I am on paragraph 36 of my
`declaration, Exhibit 2001.
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` Q. So in paragraph 36, you state that, "I
`note that the asserted level of skill, one,
`requires no coursework, training or experience
`with optics or optical physiological monitors."
` Do you see that?
` A. I see that. I'm referring to the
`previous paragraphs.
` Q. And do you also see at the end of the
`paragraph, it says, "I apply Dr. Anthony's and
`Petitioner's asserted level of skill."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes, in paragraph 36 I state that.
` Q. So the asserted level of skill that you
`applied requires no coursework, training, or
`experience with optics or optical physiological
`monitors; correct?
` A. That's not my testimony. My testimony
`is that I make a note that paragraphs 34 and 35 do
`not use the language that I used in paragraph 36.
` Q. In your opinion, would the level of
`ordinary skill in the art require training or
`experience with optics or optical physiological
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`monitors?
` A. I've applied -- in response to your
`question as to what I have done and what I have
`applied, I've applied Dr. Anthony's and the
`petitioner, Apple's, asserted level of skill. I
`do not offer a specific level of skill for a POSA
`or POSITA of my own.
` Q. In your opinion, is Dr. Anthony's and
`Petitioner's asserted level of skill, which you
`identify, is that level of skill correct?
` A. I don't offer a specific opinion about
`that -- on that issue. I have applied the level
`of skill as disclosed by Dr. Anthony and the
`petitioner, Apple.
` Q. So you don't have an opinion as to
`whether the asserted level of skill that you
`reference in paragraph 36 is correct?
` A. My testimony is that I do not offer a
`specific opinion as to its correctness. I
`adopted, and I applied it. By "it" I mean
`Dr. Anthony's and the petitioner's asserted level
`of skill for this IPR.
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` Q. Okay. Let's move to paragraph 50.
` A. I couldn't hear you, sir.
` Q. Oh, I'm sorry. Paragraph 50.
` A. 50. Okay.
` Q. Yes, five-zero.
` A. Yes, I am on paragraph 50 of
`Exhibit 2001, which is my declaration.
` Q. And this paragraph is discussing the
`Chin reference; correct?
` A. It's one of the places where I discuss
`the Chin reference, which is Exhibit 1006.
` Q. And at the end of this paragraph,
`there's a section in quotation marks, is that a
`quote from Chin?
` A. Yes, it provides a reference to Chin.
` Q. Okay. And do you see that quote that
`reads, "Also shown is an optical" -- excuse me.
`Strike that.
` Do you see the quote that says, "Also
`shown is an optional optical diffuser 180 for
`diffusing the light from emitter 176, which causes
`a further spreading or mixing of light and may
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`enhance the amount of tissue penetrated in some
`instances"?
` Do you see that?
` A. You read a portion of Chin,
`Exhibit 1006, which I reference in Column 8.
` Q. So based on this quote, you'd agree that
`Chin teaches that spreading or mixing of light may
`enhance the amount of tissue penetrated by the
`light; correct?
` A. I would disagree. I would say my
`correct testimony is that Chin -- these statements
`attributed to Chin, in my opinion, are true or
`apply only to thin tissue devices as disclosed in
`Chin.
` Q. How thin does tissue need to be in order
`to be considered thin?
` A. We are talking about Chin, and Chin is
`quite clear as to that particular issue. Chin
`specifically references nostril and earlobe
`sensors and limits, in my opinion, to those
`examples. And specifically in Figure 5B, Chin
`explicitly describes the thin tissue as between 3
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`and 5 millimeters. So that's the example of how a
`POSA would understand the thin tissue device of
`Chin.
` Q. Chin doesn't use the word "thin" to
`describe the tissue, though; correct?
` A. To a POSA it does. To a POSITA it does.
`P-O-S-I-T-A, it does. I'd refer to Figure 5B.
`I'd refer to its use of -- its exclusive and only
`use in referencing ear, as well as nostril, which
`a POSITA would understand are thin tissues. And
`Figure 5B also confirms that by saying that the
`tissue is between 3 and 5 millimeter.
` Q. But it doesn't ever characterize that as
`"thin"; correct?
` A. I would disagree because of my previous
`answer.
` Q. But it doesn't use the word "thin" to
`describe tissue; correct?
` MR. KATZENELLENBOGEN: Again, I hate to
`interrupt, particularly in the middle of a
`question, but it looks like the videographer has
`indicated that there may be some technical issue,
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`and I don't want you to lose out on anything.
` MR. SMITH: Let's go off the record for
`a second. I wasn't -- I was looking at other
`documents.
` MR. KATZENELLENBOGEN: That's totally
`fine. I'm very reluctant to interrupt in the
`middle of a question.
` MR. SMITH: Oh, no, I appreciate it. I
`honestly was not -- I was looking at other
`documents.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Yeah, that's -- well,
`let me go off the record. Going off the record.
`The time is 12:29.
` (Recess from the record.)
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the
`record. The time is 12:30.
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. I believe my last question was -- we
`were talking about Chin and specifically Chin's
`use of the word "thin."
` Does Chin ever use the word "thin" to
`describe the tissue in its disclosure?
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` A. As I referred in my previous answer,
`while the English word "thin" may not appear in
`Chin, it is my opinion that a POSA viewing the
`disclosures of Chin would --
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: I'm sorry. It looks
`like we lost the court reporter.
` (Discussion off the record.)
` THE WITNESS: As I was saying, Counsel,
`in my previous answer, while the English word
`"thin" may or may not appear in Chin, it is my
`opinion that a POSA, viewing the disclosures of
`Chin, would understand specifically the
`disclosures of the ear, the nostril, and also
`specific disclosures of a thickness of tissue of 3
`to 5 millimeters in Figure 5B, for example, that
`Chin is a thin tissue device.
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. In your opinion, would the diffuser from
`Chin operate differently in the proposed
`combinations with Sarantos and Ackermans than it
`does in the context of Chin's disclosure?
` MR. KATZENELLENBOGEN: Objection;
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`compound. Objection; incomplete hypothetical.
` THE WITNESS: As I describe in my
`declaration, a POSA would not -- a POSITA would
`not combine a combination of any of the thick
`tissue devices -- Sarantos, Mendelson, or
`Ackermans -- with a thin tissue device such as
`Chin.
` Further, as I describe in my
`declaration, there's no expectation of success.
`There's no evidence on record as to an expectation
`of success. So in my opinion, it will perform
`worse to the extent that an imaged combination was
`considered.
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. Just to be clear, you don't mean that
`the diffuser will perform worse; correct?
` A. To be clear, in my opinion, a POSITA
`would not seek to combine -- seek to -- would not
`seek to combine a thin tissue device such as
`Chin's diffuser with any of the thick device --
`thick tissue devices such as Sarantos or Ackermans
`or -- or I'm forgetting the third name. One
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`second. It is Mendelson. So a POSITA would not
`seek to make such a combination.
` Further, there's no evidence that this
`combination would work, and in my view, as I
`describe in the declaration, a POSA would not make
`such a combination because it would make the
`proposed combination worse, and there would be
`no -- and there's no evidence of an expectation of
`success.
` Q. Does Chin describe its optical diffuser
`180 as specific to use with thin tissue?
` A. In my opinion, Exhibit 1006, Chin, is --
`as per its disclosures and specification in the
`eyes of a POSA, it would -- it would -- it would
`be concerned with thin tissue devices as for the
`reasons I mentioned earlier and in my declaration.
`It only deals with ear, nostril, and for tissues
`that are between 3 and 5 millimeters as in
`Figure 5B.
` Q. Would a POSITA use a different diffuser
`with a reflectance pulse oximeter?
` MR. KATZENELLENBOGEN: Objection; lack
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`of foundation -- sorry, incomplete hypothetical.
` THE WITNESS: As I said, I'm unsure as
`to your question. I've not seen any discussion by
`the petitioner or by Dr. Anthony as to any other
`diffuser other than Chin.
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. Are you aware of any diffusers that are
`specific to thick tissue?
` A. I don't -- are you referring to a
`portion of my declaration? I do not -- I don't
`believe I have offered such an opinion in my
`declaration one way or the other.
` Q. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, you seem
`to be saying that Chin's diffuser is for -- is a
`thin tissue diffuser, and so I'm trying to figure
`out if there are -- if you're aware of any thick
`tissue diffusers?
` MR. KATZENELLENBOGEN: Objection;
`compound, lack of foundation.
` THE WITNESS: I think your question
`misstates my testimony. My testimony is that a
`POSITA would not seek to combine the teachings of
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`a thin tissue device such as Chin with those of
`thick tissue devices, such as Sarantos, Mendelson,
`or Ackermans for the reasons that are discussed
`and provide basis for in my declaration.
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. Chin does not describe its diffuser as
`specific to thin tissue; correct?
` MR. KATZENELLENBOGEN: Objection; asked
`and answered.
` THE WITNESS: Counsel, my testimony is
`that Exhibit 1006, Chin, is concerned with thin
`tissue devices. Its teachings apply to thin
`tissue devices. In the eyes of a POSITA, thin
`tissue devices are embodied in ear and nostril and
`also its explicit disclosures as to tissue
`thicknesses between 3 and 5 millimeters that is
`consistent with ear and nostril in the eyes of a
`POSITA.
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. Let's go to paragraph 57. And let me
`know when you're there.
` A. Yeah, I'm there.
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` Q. So this section of your declaration,
`including paragraphs 57 through 60, describes
`experiments you performed; correct?
` A. This is one of the sections. I rely on
`my entire declaration for my opinions, but some
`specific tests and experiments that I conducted
`are in the section that starts on page 26 of
`Exhibit 2001.
` Q. Let's go to appendix -- let's go to the
`appendix, which I believe starts on -- well,
`appendix page 1.
` A. One second. Yes.
` Q. So there are four images on this page.
`What do those images show?
` A. They show the sensor, and they show the
`configuration of the sensor without diffusers and
`with diffusers, the front and the back view.
` Q. And the top set of images shows the
`sensor without a diffuser?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And the -- sorry, and the bottom set
`shows the same device with a diffuser added;
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`correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And in the top set of images, you've
`annotated the emitter and the detector in the
`sensor; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And in the bottom figure you have
`annotated the diffuser with a blue arrow; correct?
` A. That's right. The diffuser is on the
`top of the emitter.
` Q. And which diffuser is shown in this
`picture?
` MR. KATZENELLENBOGEN: Objection; vague.
` THE WITNESS: The diffuser is one of the
`two that I listed, the Luminit and the Berry
`Plastics.
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. Can you tell me which one of the two
`diffusers is shown in the picture on appendix
`page 1?
` A. I would have to verify, but it's one of
`those two.
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` Q. And how is the diffuser attached to the
`sensor in the bottom set of figures on appendix
`page 1?
` A. It is a -- it's a film that is put on
`the emitter, and then there's a weight put on the
`top of the sensor so that it can be used in
`controlled experiment to isolate its effect.
` Q. Is the diffuser the film itself in
`that -- in the bottom set of figures on appendix
`page 1?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is the diffuser -- does it have adhesive
`that allows it to adhere to the sensor?
` A. I don't know the specific nature of
`that, but it does closely attach to the emitter.
` Q. Jumping real quick to page 5 of the
`appendix.
` A. Yes.
` Q. At the top you say, "For each diffuser,
`apply a diffuser over emitter with sensor
`adhesive."
` What is sensor adhesives?
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` A. It is -- it is just applying the
`diffuser over the emitter so that it adheres to
`the sensor.
` Q. So sensor adhesive isn't a separate
`component?
` A. It's a way of attaching -- I don't know
`specifically what the adhesive is. It's a way of
`attaching the diffuser over the emitter.
` Q. Does the sensor adhesive also cover the
`emitter in addition to the diffuser?
` A. I don't believe so.
` Q. Okay. Let's go back to appendix page 1.
`Actually, let's -- sorry. Let's go to appendix
`page 2.
` A. Okay.
` Q. So the first table that's labeled
`"Diffusers," it includes -- that table includes
`two rows. The first one, first column is labeled
`"Luminit." The second row, first column is
`labeled "Berry Plastics."
` Do those two rows represent the two
`diffusers that you tested?
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` A. Yes.
` Q. On the "Thickness" column, which is the
`fourth column, the -- so the first number in both
`rows is the thickness of the -- of the diffuser in
`millimeters; correct?
` A. Yes, it's repeated in mil.
` Q. But what is mil in the next column?
` A. Mil is the nonmetric form. It's the
`same as the one on the left.
` Q. Got you.
` On the far right column, would be the
`fifth column, labeled "Description," the first row
`states "80 degrees omnidirectional."
` What does that description -- what
`aspects of the diffuser in Row 1 does that
`description specify?
` A. In Row 1, it specifies that it's an
`omnidirectional, means all directions, and it
`has -- it has an angle of deviation from the
`normal of 40 degrees in all directions.
` Q. So half -- 40 degrees being half of 80?
` A. Yeah.
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` Q. And why is it -- why is it half of 80?
` MR. KATZENELLENBOGEN: Objection; vague.
` MR. SMITH: Well, I'm asking.
` MR. KATZENELLENBOGEN: Sorry. I wasn't
`sure if you were literally asking why is 40 half
`of 80, but I --
`BY MR. SMITH:
` Q. That's not it. Why -- why -- let me
`rephrase. I got you.
` So you stated that the angle of -- hold
`on. My realtime closed.
` So you said that the angle associated
`with the Luminit diffuser would be 40 degrees when
`the "Description" column states 80 degrees. Why
`is the angle 40 degrees instead of 80 degrees?
` A. If you take the normal, and I don't know
`if you can see this, but if it's 40 this way and
`40 that way, so it's like 80. So it's like this.
`You take the finger as the normal and put two
`40 degrees on each side. So it's like 40 on each
`side. The total is 80.
` Q. So the 80 degrees is the total
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