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`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
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`Brian Anthony, Ph.D.
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` _______________________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` _________________________________
` APPLE INC.
` Petitioner,
` v.
` MASIMO CORPORATION,
` Patent Owner
` ________________________________
` IRP2020-01722
` Patent 10,470,695
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. BRIAN W. ANTHONY
` July 16, 2021
` 12:00 p.m. Eastern Time
`
`Reported by: Eileen Mulvenna, CSR/RMR/CRR
`
`______________________________________________________
` DIGITAL EVIDENCE GROUP
` 1730 M Street, NW, Suite 812
` Washington, D.C. 20036
` (202) 232-0646
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2021
`
`202-232-0646
`
`Masimo Ex. 2003
`Apple v. Masimo, IPR2020-01722
`
`
`
`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
`
`Brian Anthony, Ph.D.
`
`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` _______________________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` _________________________________
` APPLE INC.
` Petitioner,
` v.
` MASIMO CORPORATION,
` Patent Owner
` ________________________________
` IRP2020-01722
` Patent 10,470,695
`
` DEPOSITION OF DR. BRIAN W. ANTHONY
` July 16, 2021
` 12:00 p.m. Eastern Time
`
`Reported by: Eileen Mulvenna, CSR/RMR/CRR
`
`______________________________________________________
` DIGITAL EVIDENCE GROUP
` 1730 M Street, NW, Suite 812
` Washington, D.C. 20036
` (202) 232-0646
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.comDigital Evidence Group C'rt 2021
`
`202-232-0646
`
`Masimo Ex. 2003
`Apple v. Masimo, IPR2020-01722
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`
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`7/16/2021
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`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
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`Brian Anthony, Ph.D.
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`Page 2
`
` REMOTE VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION of
`DR. BRIAN W. ANTHONY, Declarant for Petitioner, in
`the above-titled action, held on Friday, July 16,
`2021, commencing at approximately 12:00 p.m., before
`Eileen Mulvenna, CSR/RMR/CRR, Certified Shorthand
`Reporter, Registered Merit Reporter, Certified
`Realtime Reporter, and Notary Public of the State of
`New York.
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`Brian Anthony, Ph.D.
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`Page 3
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`On behalf of the Petitioner, Apple, Inc.:
`DANIEL D. SMITH, ESQ. (Dallas)
`Fish & Richardson
`1000 Maine Avenue, SW
`Washington, D.C. 20024
`PHONE: (214) 292-4071
`EMAIL: dsmith@fr.com
`
`On behalf of the Patent Owner, Masimo
`Corporation:
`SHANNON H. LAM, ESQ.
`JOHN GROVER, ESQ.
`BEN J. EVERTON, ESQ.
`Knobbe, Martens, Olson & Bear, LLP
`2040 Main Street, 14th Floor
`Irvine, California 92614
`PHONE: (949) 760-0404
`EMAIL: shannon.lam@knobbe.com
`john.grover@knobbe.com
`ben.everton@knobbe.com
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`Carrie Howard, Videographer
`James Beall, Document Technician
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` I N D E X
`WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE
`DR. BRIAN W. ANTHONY
` MS. LAM 6
`
` E X H I B I T S
` PAGE
`Exhibit 1003 No Bates numbers, Dr. Brian 8
` W. Anthony Declaration
`Exhibit 1014 No Bates numbers, Sarantos 69
` Patent
`Exhibit 1015 No Bates numbers, Mendelson 108
` Abstract
`Exhibit 1016 No Bates numbers, Ackermans 126
` Application
`Exhibit 1006 No Bates numbers, Chin 111
` Patent
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`Page 5
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins the
` videotape deposition of Brian W. Anthony in
` the matter of Apple versus Masimo in the
` patent trial and appeal board.
` This deposition is being held remotely
` by Zoom conference. The physical recording
` is my place in Lexington, Kentucky.
` Today's date is July 16, 2021, and the
` time on the video screen is 12:04 p.m.,
` Eastern Time.
` My name is Carrie Howard. I'm the
` legal videographer. And the court reporter
` is Eileen. And we are both in association
` with Digital Evidence Group.
` Now will counsel please introduce
` themselves for the record.
` MS. LAM: Shannon Lam for Masimo
` Corporation. And with me today are Ben
` Everton and John Grover.
` MR. SMITH: Dan Smith for Apple. And
` it is just me on today.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: All right. Now
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`Page 6
` will the court reporter please swear in the
` witness.
`DR. BRIAN WARREN ANTHONY,
` having been duly sworn by Eileen Mulvenna,
` a Notary Public of the State of New York,
` was examined and testified as follows:
`EXAMINATION
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Dr. Anthony, please state your full
`name for the record.
` A. Brian Warren Anthony.
` Q. And you understand that you are under
`oath today as if you were in a courtroom?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. Is there any reason why you would be
`unable to give truthful and accurate testimony
`today?
` A. No.
` Q. Are you taking any medications that
`might affect your testimony today?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you understand this is a deposition
`
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`Page 7
`
`for an IPR proceeding related to US Patent
`No. 10,470,695?
` A. That sounds right. I know it by '695,
`but yes.
` Q. So during today's deposition, I'll
`refer to this as the '695 patent.
` How did you prepare for your
`deposition?
` A. I reviewed my declaration, spoke with
`counsel, Dan Smith, and skimmed through the
`references that I cite in the declaration.
` Q. And how long did you meet with
`counsel?
` A. Maybe three hours, four hours.
` Q. Do you have any notes with you today?
` A. I do not.
` Q. And you submitted a declaration in
`this IPR proceeding; correct?
` A. Correct.
` MS. LAM: I'd like to introduce
` Exhibit 1003. And we have it up on the
` screen.
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`Page 8
` (Exhibit 1003, No Bates numbers, Dr.
` Brian W. Anthony Declaration, received and
` marked.)
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Do you recognize this exhibit,
`Dr. Anthony?
` A. Yes, I do. I would like to also ask I
`believe I have a package from you that contains the
`paper forms. It's far easier for me to review the
`paper. So if I can open that and get that out.
` Q. Sure. Please go ahead.
` A. Okay. Thank you.
` IPR 2020-01722; correct?
` Q. Yes.
` A. Okay. I have the paper form in front
`of me.
` Q. I think we lost your video.
` A. Let's see.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We have. It's back
` on.
` THE WITNESS: Am I back?
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes.
`
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`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Okay. And so Dr. Anthony, do you
`recognize Exhibit 1003?
` (Document review.)
` THE WITNESS: It is my declaration for
` the '695 patent.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. And you submitted this declaration on
`behalf of Apple; correct?
` A. (Inaudible.)
` Q. And you submitted this declaration on
`behalf of Apple; correct?
` A. Correct. Did my audio not come
`through? I answered that. I just wanted to confirm
`we're not having audio problems.
` Q. I can hear you now. I didn't hear
`your earlier response.
` Is this a true and accurate copy of
`your declaration?
` (Document review.)
` A. It appears to be, yes.
`
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`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Approximately how much time did you
`spend preparing this declaration?
` A. I would estimate 30, 40 hours.
` Q. Does your declaration set forth all of
`your opinions regarding the '695 patent?
` A. This contains my opinions on the '695
`patent.
` Q. Is there anything missing?
` A. No.
` Q. So have you formed any opinions
`regarding the '695 patent other than the opinions
`contained in your declaration?
` A. No.
` Q. Did you investigate any issues related
`to the '695 patent that do not appear in your
`declaration?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: No.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Your declaration includes an appendix
`with your CV; correct? I believe it starts on
`
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`Page 11
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`page 110.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is there any experience you have had
`that is relevant to this IPR but not included in
`your CV?
` A. It's -- this is not a laundry list.
`This is a summary of my experience. So there's my
`full career's worth of experience that is in the
`detail embodied to me that is not on the document.
`So...
` Q. So there's no experience that you
`believe is relevant to this IPR proceeding and
`missing from your CV?
` A. This is my CV. This my academic CV.
`It explains roughly from '92 to now.
` Q. And so this is your up-to-date CV
`then?
` A. Circa 2019.
` Q. If you turn to paragraph 11 of your
`declaration, you state that you reviewed the listed
`materials.
` You see that?
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`Page 12
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` (Document review.)
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Is this a complete list of the
`materials you reviewed?
` A. These are the documents that are used
`as reference in my declaration.
` Q. And is it a complete list of the
`references you rely on in your declaration?
` A. Yes.
` MR. SMITH: Objection to form.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. If it's okay with you, I'll refer to
`these references by the shorthand names in the
`parentheticals.
` THE WITNESS: So Venkataraman, Chin,
` Sarantos, Mendelson-1991, Ackermans, Adams,
` and Casciani?
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Yes.
` In paragraph 11, you state that you
`reviewed relevant excerpts of the prosecution
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`Page 13
`
`history of the '695 patents.
` Do you see that?
` A. I do.
` Q. Does your declaration discuss the
`prosecution history in connection with any of your
`opinions?
` MR. SMITH: Objection to form.
` (Document review.)
` THE WITNESS: So my declaration is
` formed on having reviewed the '695 patent,
` these documents, prosecution history, as I
` explain here.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Does your declaration specifically
`rely on the prosecution history in connection with
`any of your opinions?
` A. My declaration specifically relies on
`all the references that I listed here and reviewed,
`including the patent prosecution history and the
`references.
` Q. Where in your declaration do you refer
`back to the prosecution history?
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` (Document review.)
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Dr. Anthony, sitting here today, do
`you recall whether you relied on the prosecution
`history to support any of your opinions?
` A. The question you asked, where in the
`document I call that. I was reviewing the document
`to identify the "where." About page 66, I can
`identify the "where."
` Q. Okay.
` A. Would you like me to continue to
`review the declaration for identifying the "where"?
` Q. Sitting here today, do you recall
`citing to the prosecution history as support for any
`of your opinions?
` MR. SMITH: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: As I say in
` paragraph 11, I reviewed the '695 patent, the
` relevant prosecution histories, and the
` following documents.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Do you recall referring to the
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`Page 15
`prosecution anywhere in your declaration other than
`paragraph 11?
` A. I don't have my declaration memorized.
`I was looking through it to identify the places
`where it's specifically referenced.
` Q. Up until page 66, did you identify any
`locations?
` A. Up until page 66, it doesn't appear I
`needed to, in forming my opinions, call out a
`specific additional reference. But as I highlight
`in paragraph 11, you know, that was amongst the
`documents that I reviewed.
` Q. If you'd like to continue flipping
`through your declaration, please go ahead.
` A. Would you like -- okay.
` (Document review.)
` THE WITNESS: So in skimming through
` it here, in forming my opinions, I didn't
` find it necessary to highlight additional
` reference to that throughout. If there's a
` particular place in the declaration that
` you'd like me to refer to?
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`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. So you did not refer to the
`prosecution history in your declaration other than
`in paragraph 11; is that correct?
` A. I don't specifically highlight a
`reference, as I skim through here today, that I
`identified. If there's a particular reference
`location -- you have a digital version. Presumably
`you can scan it, but if there's -- in skimming
`through it, I did not identify another specific
`place where I highlighted. But I didn't find it
`necessary to specifically call it out in the --
`forming my opinions in the rest of the declaration.
` Q. And was it unnecessary because it was
`not relevant to the opinions that you formed in your
`declaration?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: All the documents that I
` highlighted here were necessary in forming my
` opinions.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. And by not referring to the
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`Page 17
`prosecution history with respect to any of your
`specific opinions, I conclude that you found it was
`not relevant or not necessary to evaluate the
`prosecution history?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form,
` argumentative.
` THE WITNESS: I think you
` misrepresented what I said. That's not the
` conclusion that I think you should draw.
` I've reviewed the '695 patent prosecution
` history and these documents in forming my
` opinion.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. But you did not specifically cite to
`the prosecution history to support any of your
`opinions; correct?
` MR. SMITH: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: As I skim through here,
` I did not see another specific reference to
` the prosecution history.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Because you thought it was unnecessary
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`Page 18
`to rely on the prosecution history to support your
`opinion?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form,
` argumentative.
` THE WITNESS: That's not what I said.
` I think I answered that question. It's -- I
` reviewed the '695 patent, the prosecution
` history, these documents in forming my
` opinions.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. But did not specifically rely on the
`prosecution history in the discussion of any of your
`opinions; correct?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I think as you've
` established, I don't -- in my skimming --
` skimming through it here, I did not see
` another specific call out of the prosecution
` history. That doesn't mean that I didn't use
` it in forming my opinions. I reviewed the
` '695 patent prosecution history and these
` documents.
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`Page 19
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`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. If you used it to form your opinions,
`why didn't you refer to it again in your
`declaration?
` MR. SMITH: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: My opinions are based on
` documents, you know, my understanding of what
` a person skilled in the art would know. As I
` highlight, you know, in paragraph 14, in
` writing this declaration, I've considered my
` own knowledge and experience, my work
` experience; and, additionally, I've analyzed
` various publications and materials in
` addition to materials I cite in the
` declaration.
` My opinions are -- as explained, are
` based on my education, my experience, my
` expertise in the fields relating to the '695
` patent. Unless otherwise stated, my
` testimony below refers to the knowledge of
` one of ordinary skill in the fields as of the
` critical date. And the critical date is, I
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`Page 20
`
` believe --
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. But you did not rely on the
`prosecution history to support any of your specific
`opinions; correct?
` MR. SMITH: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: I relied on my knowledge
` and experience, the documents that I
` reviewed --
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. I'm specifically asking about the
`prosecution history.
` A. Understood.
` Q. So you did not specifically rely on
`the prosecution history of the '695 patent to
`support any of your opinions?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form, asked and
` answered.
` THE WITNESS: As I highlight, I
` specifically relied on the '695 patent,
` relevant excerpts of the prosecution history.
` As I say, I've reviewed the following art
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` references and materials, in addition to
` other materials I cite in my declaration
` including the Venkatraman, the Chin,
` Sarantos, Mendelson-1991, Ackermans, Adams,
` Casciani -- Casciani.
` I've also considered my own knowledge
` and experience, analyzed various publications
` and materials based on --
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. We'll address all of that over the
`course of this deposition; but specifically with
`respect to the prosecution history, did you find it
`unnecessary to refer back to the prosecution history
`to support any of your opinions?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: Sorry. I get confused
` by the question. I've answered -- I think
` I've answered that question.
` MR. SMITH: Ms. Lam, could you let him
` finish his answer and don't cut him off with
` your next question, if you don't mind.
` MS. LAM: I would appreciate it,
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` though, if Dr. Anthony specifically answered
` the questions.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. So you've testified here in
`paragraph 11 that you've reviewed relevant excerpts
`of the prosecution history of the '695 patent, but
`you do not rely on the prosecution history anywhere
`else in your declaration; correct?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: As I think we've
` established, I didn't, in my skimming
` through, see another specific cite to the
` prosecution history later on in the document;
` but I indeed reviewed the '695 patent
` prosecution history and these documents in
` forming my opinions.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Turning to page 106, you see the
`second titled "Legal Principles"?
` A. I do.
` Q. Does this section set forth all of the
`legal standards that you relied upon in forming your
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`
`opinions?
` A. I am not an attorney, these are my
`understandings based on my -- as being informed by
`counsel. So I've been informed regarding
`anticipation and obviousness.
` Q. Dr. Anthony, are you familiar with
`transmissive pulse oximeter sensors?
` A. As I have it here, in general,
`physiological devices reflective in transmissive
`pulse oximeter sensors are amongst those types of
`devices.
` Q. So you are familiar with transmissive
`pulse oximeter sensors?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And what is a transmissive pulse
`oximeter sensor?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form,
` relevance.
` THE WITNESS: I didn't find it
` necessary in forming my opinions to
` specifically call out the transmissive --
` definition of a transmissive oximeter sensor.
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`Brian Anthony, Ph.D.
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`
` In general, the transmissive acts in a
` transmissive mode and reflective operates in
` a reflective mode, as I think it's called
` out.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Sitting here today, can you tell me
`what the difference is between a transmissive mode
`sensor and a reflective mode sensor?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form, scope,
` relevance.
` THE WITNESS: So as I highlight in
` paragraph 16, the '695 patent describes a
` reflective pulse oximeter sensor that emits
` light towards a tissue and detects light that
` is reflective by the tissue measurement site.
` In that paragraph, I don't highlight a
` separate definition. Didn't find it
` necessary to highlight a separate definition
` of transmissive mode. But, you know,
` contrast where the tissue reflects in a
` reflective mode, tissue transmits through in
` a transmissive mode.
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`Brian Anthony, Ph.D.
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`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Are you aware of any differences
`between the optical design of a transmissive mode
`sensor and a reflective mode sensor?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form, scope,
` relevance.
` THE WITNESS: Didn't find it necessary
` to highlight design differences between
` transmissive and reflective mode sensors.
` You know, in any physiological device or
` sensor like this, there are many design
` choices that -- where there's some
` commonalities and some similarities,
` depending on the design decisions for the
` particular embodiment.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. And can you provide me with an example
`of a difference?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form, scope,
` relevance.
` THE WITNESS: In forming my opinions
` here, it wasn't necessary to highlight those
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`202-232-0646
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`Brian Anthony, Ph.D.
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`
` specific differences for a particular
` embodiment. But generally speaking,
` transmissive is going to be transmitting
` through, and reflective is going to be
` reflecting on the same site.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. And how would that change the optical
`design of the sensors?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form, scope,
` relevance.
` THE WITNESS: The design of any
` optical elements depends not just on the
` optical elements but the overall -- where
` it's going to be located on the body, the
` design decisions, power considerations. So
` it's -- and the devil is in the detail, so to
` speak.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Would the arrangement of optical
`components in a transmissive sensor be different
`from the arrangement in a reflective mode sensor?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form, scope,
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`202-232-0646
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`7/16/2021
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`Brian Anthony, Ph.D.
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`
` relevance.
` THE WITNESS: As I said, the design
` arrangement -- the arrangement of components
` and details would depend on the -- all the
` design considerations, and I didn't need to
` create a specific design in forming my
` opinions here.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. So is your arrangement of optical
`components in a transmissive sensor the same as the
`arrangement of optical components in a reflective
`sensor?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form, scope,
` relevance.
` THE WITNESS: If you could highlight
` someplace in my declaration where you're
` asking in particular in forming my opinions,
` it wasn't necessary to highlight the specific
` design choices between a transmissive mode
` and a reflective mode.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. In forming your opinions in this
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`7/16/2021
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`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
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`Brian Anthony, Ph.D.
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`Page 28
`declaration, you did not consider the specific
`design choices that might be affected between a
`transmissive mode sensor and a reflective mode
`sensor?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form,
` argumentative.
` THE WITNESS: I said I didn't need to
` highlight in forming my opinions here the
` detailed design difference between a
` transmissive and a reflective mode sensor.
` If there are particular locations in my
` declaration that you're asking about, if you
` could point them to me, it would be helpful.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. And why didn't you need to highlight
`the differences in forming your opinions?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form,
` argumentative.
` THE WITNESS: I didn't find it
` necessary to do so.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. It wasn't necessary because it's not
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`Brian Anthony, Ph.D.
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`relevant?
` A. I didn't -- there are many things that
`are relevant in forming my opinions. It's not to
`list an exhaustive list of everything that's
`relevant, but to explain how I came to my
`conclusions based on documents, person skilled in
`the art, an exhaustive list of all relevant things
`is not necessary in my understanding. It's the
`things that are relevant that demonstrate what a
`person skilled in the art would know as it relates
`to the topic on hand.
` Q. So you did not find that relevant to
`your opinions in this declaration to highlight the
`differences between transmissive and reflective
`sensors?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form,
` argumentative.
` (Document review.)
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Dr. Anthony, sitting here today, do
`you know if it was relevant to your opinions in this
`declaration to highlight the differences between
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`202-232-0646
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`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
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`Brian Anthony, Ph.D.
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`Page 30
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`transmissive and reflective sensors?
` MR. SMITH: Objection; form,
` relevance.
` (Document review.)
` THE WITNESS: I'm trying to give you
` an informed answer here. I'm looking at --
` I'm highlighting -- going to the sections in
` my declaration which talk about Claim 1 and
` then Claim 5.
` Claim 5, specifically in the '695
` patent, calls out reflective or transmissive.
` So I'm going to review my declaration as it
` relates to those particular claims.
` (Document review.)
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Dr. Anthony, are you still reviewing
`Claims 1 and 5?
` A. I am. And I'm pulling in, looking at
`as well, my discussion on the Sarantos in the '695
`patent.
` (Document review.)
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`202-232-0646
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`7/16/2021
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`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
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`Brian Anthony, Ph.D.
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`Page 31
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`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. Dr. Anthony, sitting here today, do
`you recall whether you considered the differences
`between transmissive and reflective sensors in your
`declaration?
` A. As I was highlighting -- as I was
`highlighting in Claim No. 1 -- in my discussion
`around Claim No. 1 of '695, just to go back to '695
`for a second, '695 Claim 1 neither recites specific
`reflective or transmissive. So a person skilled in
`the art knows that the design elements that you use
`are common between both depending on the exact
`configuration how you would arrange them.
` And then Claim No. 5, reflective isn't
`specifically called out.
` So in discussing 1 and 5, there are
`many common design elements between transmissive and
`reflective mode, and Claim 5 specifically -- my
`discussion is around reflective mode.
` Q. In forming your opinions in your
`declaration, did you consider the differences
`between transmissive and reflective sensors?
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`202-232-0646
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`7/16/2021
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`Apple, Inc. v. Masimo Corp.
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`Brian Anthony, Ph.D.
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`Page 32
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` MR. SMITH: Objection; form,
` relevance.
` THE WITNESS: I didn't find it
` necessary to call out, in forming my
` opinions, specific highlighting in, for
` example, addressing Claim 1 transmissive
` versus reflective. In Claim 5, reflection is
` certainly specifically listed there. So part
` of my discussions related to that.
`BY MS. LAM:
` Q. So your declaration does not include
`any opinions on the differences between transmissive
`and reflective sensors?
` A. I didn't find it necessary in forming
`my opinio
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