·1
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`·2· ·UNITED STATES INTERNATIONAL TRADE COMMISSION
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`·3· · · · · · · · ·Washington, D.C.
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`·4· · · · · Investigation NO. 337-TA-1199
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`Page 1
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`·5
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`·6
`· · ·In the Matter of:
`·7
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`·8· ·CERTAIN TOBACCO HEATING ARTICLES
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`·9· ·and COMPONENTS THEREOF
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`10· ·__________________________________/
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`11
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`12· · · · ·REMOTE VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION
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`13· · · · · · · · · · ·OF
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`14· · · · · · · ·STEWART M. FOX
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`15· · · · · ·Friday, November 6, 2020
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`24· ·Reported by:
`· · ·ANNETTE ARLEQUIN, CCR, RPR, CRR, CLR
`25· ·JOB NO. 186003
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`TSG Reporting - Worldwide· · 877-702-9580TSG Reporting - Worldwide· · 877-702-9580
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`Ex. 2007-0001
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`Page 118
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`Page 119
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·S. Fox
`·2· ·says that "the aerosol-forming material can
`·3· ·be wicked into contact with the electrical
`·4· ·resistance heater."
`·5· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·And if you go to paragraph 418,
`·8· ·you reproduce the language of some of the
`·9· ·dependent claims.
`10· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`11· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`12· · · · Q.· ·If I understand what you're
`13· ·saying here in 418, I believe your opinion
`14· ·is that as long as the absorbent material
`15· ·is in proximity with the heater, the claim
`16· ·limitation "wick into contact" is
`17· ·necessarily met; is that right?
`18· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`19· · · · Q.· ·And then you go on to explain
`20· ·your opinion why you believe that the RJR
`21· ·Ruyan product has the heater -- withdraw
`22· ·that.
`23· · · · · · ·You go on to explain your opinion
`24· ·why the RJR Ruyan device has a -- an
`25· ·absorbent material in proximity to the
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·S. Fox
`·2· ·heater, right?
`·3· · · · A.· ·In proximity to at least one
`·4· ·resistance heater, yes.
`·5· · · · Q.· ·So your opinion, Mr. Fox, is that
`·6· ·because the metal mesh of the Reynolds
`·7· ·Ruyan device is in proximity to the heater,
`·8· ·it therefore must wick liquid into contact
`·9· ·with the heater, right?
`10· · · · A.· ·In the context of the claims of
`11· ·the patent '123.
`12· · · · Q.· ·Yes?
`13· · · · A.· ·Yes.· In context of the claims of
`14· ·the patent '123.
`15· · · · Q.· ·In paragraph 422 of your report,
`16· ·you describe your belief as to how the
`17· ·liquid in the RJR Ruyan device would flow,
`18· ·correct?
`19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`20· · · · Q.· ·And you note underneath the
`21· ·picture in paragraph 422 that "this is not
`22· ·described in detail in the RJR Ruyan
`23· ·report," right?
`24· · · · A.· ·Yes, correct.
`25· · · · Q.· ·You're providing your
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`Page 120
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`Page 121
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·S. Fox
`·2· ·interpretation of how a POSA would
`·3· ·understand how the liquid enters the heater
`·4· ·chamber, right?
`·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.· A POSA studying these
`·6· ·documents, the RJR report, they would
`·7· ·understand liquid entered the heater
`·8· ·chamber through several holes in the
`·9· ·cavity.
`10· · · · Q.· ·So if you turn to the next page
`11· ·185 of your report, there is two more
`12· ·pictures at the top of the page?
`13· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`14· · · · Q.· ·And you have -- on the right-hand
`15· ·picture, there is a white, I think what you
`16· ·described as a shell with a hole in with a
`17· ·red arrow pointing to it.
`18· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`19· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`20· · · · Q.· ·And that is your belief as to
`21· ·where the liquid would enter the heater
`22· ·chamber in this RJR Ruyan device?
`23· · · · A.· ·It would enter through holes in
`24· ·that white compartment and in the mesh.
`25· ·That's one of the holes shown on the
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·S. Fox
`·2· ·right-hand view on page 105.
`·3· · · · Q.· ·And then right under the picture,
`·4· ·you note that when the user draws on the
`·5· ·device, the liquid that's in the mesh is
`·6· ·carried by the airflow through the holes
`·7· ·and to the heater, right?
`·8· · · · A.· ·Carried partly by the airflow,
`·9· ·party by other means such as gravity, but
`10· ·yes, carried to the heater.
`11· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Fox, what is the temperature
`12· ·inside that heater chamber during operation
`13· ·of the Reynolds Ruyan device?
`14· · · · A.· ·I do not know that information.
`15· · · · Q.· ·Do you know what the area is --
`16· ·I'm sorry.· Withdraw that.
`17· · · · · · ·What is the volume of that heater
`18· ·chamber in the RJR Ruyan device?
`19· · · · A.· ·I do not have an exact figure. I
`20· ·can make an approximation.· Would that be
`21· ·useful?
`22· · · · Q.· ·Sure.
`23· · · · A.· ·Approximately one centimeter
`24· ·cubed.
`25· · · · Q.· ·When the user draws on the
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`Ex. 2007-0002
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`Page 122
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`Page 123
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·S. Fox
`·2· ·device, in your opinion, the liquid
`·3· ·contained in the metal mesh is carried by
`·4· ·airflow and you said by gravity into the
`·5· ·heating chamber, right?
`·6· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`·7· · · · Q.· ·So do you know what the
`·8· ·vaporization temperature is in the liquid
`·9· ·in the Reynolds Ruyan device?
`10· · · · A.· ·Not exactly, no.
`11· · · · Q.· ·Have you seen a phase diagram for
`12· ·the liquid that is contained in the
`13· ·Reynolds Ruyan device?
`14· · · · A.· ·I've seen a phase diagram of
`15· ·similar liquids, propylene glycol, for
`16· ·example.
`17· · · · Q.· ·But you haven't seen a phase
`18· ·diagram of the exact mixture that you
`19· ·believe was contained in the Reynolds Ruyan
`20· ·device, right?
`21· · · · A.· ·I have not.
`22· · · · Q.· ·You don't have any evidence,
`23· ·Mr. Fox, that any material in liquid phase
`24· ·makes it in contact with the heater in the
`25· ·Reynolds Ruyan device, correct?
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·S. Fox
`·2· · · · A.· ·Liquid must come into contact
`·3· ·with the heater in the Reynolds device to
`·4· ·produce an aerosol, which we have observed
`·5· ·being formed on the device we examined.
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Depending on the temperature of
`·7· ·the heater coil, the temperature of the
`·8· ·heating chamber, the volume of the heating
`·9· ·chamber and the vaporization temperature of
`10· ·the liquid, it's entirely possible that no
`11· ·liquid ever makes it to the heating coil,
`12· ·it gets instantly vaporized within the
`13· ·heating chamber, right?
`14· · · · · · ·MR. O'DONOHUE:· Objection.
`15· · · · Mischaracterizes prior testimony.
`16· · · · A.· ·Given the power in the battery,
`17· ·in the RJR report of the number of puffs
`18· ·that the battery lasts -- given the power
`19· ·stored in the battery, the size of the
`20· ·battery used in the Ruyan device, the
`21· ·number of puffs that a battery lasts
`22· ·written in the RJR report, it is extremely
`23· ·unlikely that the heater, the atomized
`24· ·element in the Ruyan device would be able
`25· ·to vaporize a significant amount of aerosol
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`Page 124
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`Page 125
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·S. Fox
`·2· ·without physical contact between the liquid
`·3· ·and the heater.
`·4· · · · Q.· ·That statement you just made is
`·5· ·speculation, right, Mr. Fox?
`·6· · · · A.· ·It's based on engineering
`·7· ·judgment and many years of engineering
`·8· ·knowledge.
`·9· · · · Q.· ·You don't even know the
`10· ·temperature that the heater runs at.
`11· · · · · · ·How can you possibly say that
`12· ·there would be liquid going into contact
`13· ·with the heater?
`14· · · · · · ·You just speculating, right?
`15· · · · A.· ·No, it's not speculation.· That's
`16· ·judgment based on the facts that I have
`17· ·around the size and the power of the heater
`18· ·and understanding of the energy needed to
`19· ·vaporize chemicals such as glycol.
`20· · · · Q.· ·You don't provide any
`21· ·calculations in your report to justify your
`22· ·speculation that liquid actually makes it
`23· ·into contact with the heater coil, correct?
`24· · · · A.· ·I cite the report by Dr. Griffith
`25· ·that the most efficiency way to transfer
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·S. Fox
`·2· ·energy to a liquid is to vaporize it
`·3· ·through conduction.· And based on the
`·4· ·construction that I mentioned of the heat
`·5· ·chamber, a person skilled in the art would
`·6· ·understand that as shown in the RJR
`·7· ·documents, the Ruyan e-cigar uses
`·8· ·conductive heat to vaporize the liquid.
`·9· · · · Q.· ·You didn't do any testing of the
`10· ·operation of the Reynolds Ruyan e-cigar to
`11· ·support your speculation that liquid
`12· ·actually makes it into contact with the
`13· ·heater coil, correct?
`14· · · · A.· ·We did testing which showed that
`15· ·the Ruyan device, similar to the RJR
`16· ·report, showed that the Ruyan device
`17· ·created significant amounts of aerosol, the
`18· ·amount of aerosol which could only be
`19· ·produced by conductive heat, and therefore
`20· ·the liquid will have contacted the heater.
`21· · · · Q.· ·And the two ways that you contend
`22· ·liquid would contact the heater is either
`23· ·through being carried by the airflow when
`24· ·the user takes a draw or by gravity, right?
`25· · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`Ex. 2007-0003
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