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`· · · · · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·3· · ·- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`· · · · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · RIMFRONT AS
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·V.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · AKER BIOMARINE ANTARCTIC AS
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Case No. IPR2020-01534
`11· · · · · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent 10,010,567
`· · · · · · ·Title:· BIOEFFECTIVE KRILL OIL COMPOSITIONS
`12· · ·- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`13· · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF DR. STEPHEN J. TALLON
`· · · · · · · · · · · · APPEARING REMOTELY FROM
`14· · · · · · · · · · · · · · NEW ZEALAND
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · · ·December 01, 2021
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·3:54 p.m.
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`23· · ·REPORTED BY:
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`24· · ·Angela Hojnacki
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`25· · ·APPEARING REMOTELY FROM SUFFOLK COUNTY, NEW YORK
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0001
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`· · · · · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·3· · ·- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`· · · · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · RIMFRONT AS
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·V.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · AKER BIOMARINE ANTARCTIC AS
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
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`10
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Case No. IPR2020-01534
`11· · · · · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent 10,010,567
`· · · · · · ·Title:· BIOEFFECTIVE KRILL OIL COMPOSITIONS
`12· · ·- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
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`13· · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF DR. STEPHEN J. TALLON
`· · · · · · · · · · · · APPEARING REMOTELY FROM
`14· · · · · · · · · · · · · · NEW ZEALAND
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · · ·December 01, 2021
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·3:54 p.m.
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`23· · ·REPORTED BY:
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`24· · ·Angela Hojnacki
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`25· · ·APPEARING REMOTELY FROM SUFFOLK COUNTY, NEW YORK
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0001
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`·2· · ·REMOTE APPEARANCES:
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`·3
`· · · · · · CASIMIR JONES, S.C.
`·4· · · · · · · ·Attorneys for Patent Owner
`· · · · · · · · ·2275 Deming Way, 310
`·5· · · · · · · ·Middleton, Wisconsin 53562
`· · · · · · · · ·608.662.1276
`·6
`· · · · · · BY:· J. MITCHELL JONES, ESQ.
`·7· · · · · · · ·Jmjones@casimirjones.com
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · HOFFMAN & BARON, LLP.
`· · · · · · · · ·Attorneys for Petitioner
`10· · · · · · · ·6900 Jericho Turnpike
`· · · · · · · · ·Syosset, New York 11791
`11· · · · · · · ·516.822.3550
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`12· · · · · BY:· MICHAEL I. CHAKANSKY, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · · ·micdocket@hbiplaw.com
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · INDEX TO EXAMINATION
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`·3· · · · · · · · · WITNESS:· DR. STEPHEN J. TALLON
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`·4
`· · · ·EXAMINATION BY· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
`·5· · ·J. Mitchell Jones, Esq.· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·08
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · DR. STEPHEN J. TALLON
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`·3· · · · · · Rimfront AS V. Aker Biomarine Antarctic AS
`· · · · · · · · · · ·Wednesday, December 01, 2021
`·4
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Angela Hojnacki
`·5
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · INDEX TO EXHIBITS
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`·7· · ·EXHIBITS· · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0005
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`·2· · · · · · · · · ·QUESTIONS MARKED FOR A RULING
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`·3· · ·QUESTIONING ATTORNEY· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE/LINE
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0006
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
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`·2· · · · · REPORTED REMOTELY FROM SUFFOLK COUNTY, NEW YORK
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`·3· · · · · · · ·Wednesday, December 1, 2021, 3:54 P.M.
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`·4
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`·5· · · · · · · · · ·THE COURT REPORTER:· The
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`·6· · · · · · · attorneys participating in this
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`·7· · · · · · · deposition acknowledge that I am not
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`·8· · · · · · · physically present in the deposition
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`·9· · · · · · · room and that I will be reporting the
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`10· · · · · · · deposition remotely.
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`11· · · · · · · · · ·They further acknowledge that, in
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`12· · · · · · · lieu of an oath administered in
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`13· · · · · · · person, the witness will verbally
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`14· · · · · · · declare his testimony in this matter
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`15· · · · · · · is under penalty of perjury.
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`16· · · · · · · · · ·The parties and their counsel
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`17· · · · · · · consent to this arrangement and waive
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`18· · · · · · · any objections to this manner of
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`19· · · · · · · reporting.
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`20· · · · · · · · · ·Please indicate your agreement by
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`21· · · · · · · stating your name and your agreement
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`22· · · · · · · on the record.
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`23· · · · · · · · · ·MR. JONES:· John Mitchell Jones
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`24· · · · · · · and I agree.
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`25· · · · · · · · · ·MR. CHAKANSKY:· Michael Chakansky
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0007
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
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`·2· · · · · · · representing Rimfrost from Hoffman &
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`·3· · · · · · · Baron and I agree.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · ·THE COURT REPORTER:· Will the
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`·5· · · · · · · witness kindly present his
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`·6· · · · · · · government-issued identification by
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`·7· · · · · · · holding it up to the camera for
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`·8· · · · · · · verification?
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`·9· · · · · · · · · ·(Witness presented
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`10· · · · · · · government-issued identification and
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`11· · · · · · · identity was verified.)
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`12· · ·S T E P H E N· ·T A L L O N,
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`13· · · · · the Nonparty Witness herein,
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`14· · · · · having been duly sworn by the Notary Public,
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`15· · · · · was examined and testified as follows:
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`16· · ·EXAMINATION BY
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`17· · ·MR. JONES:
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`18· · · · · ·Q· Please state your name for the record.
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`19· · · · · ·A· Stephen John Tallon.
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`20· · · · · ·Q· Please state your address for the
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`21· · ·record.
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`22· · · · · ·A· 3 Rodney Street, Lower Hat, New
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`23· · ·Zealand.
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`24· · · · · · · · · ·MR. JONES:· Good morning,
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`25· · · · · · · Dr. Tallon.· I'm not going to go over
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0008
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
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`·2· · · · · · · the rules as we've been through these
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`·3· · · · · · · depositions a number of times before.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · ·But please, if you need a break
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`·5· · · · · · · at any time, let us know, and if it's
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`·6· · · · · · · appropriate timing we can get a break.
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`·7· · · · · · · Otherwise, we can get started.
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`·8· · · · · ·Q· So first off, I'd like to know what
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`·9· · ·you did to prepare for today's deposition.
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`10· · · · · ·A· To prepare for it I've just read
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`11· · ·through some of the associated documents, you
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`12· · ·know, my own sort of declarations related to
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`13· · ·this patent, and to the, you know, the
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`14· · ·documents filed by yourselves.
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`15· · · · · ·Q· And did you meet with anyone else
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`16· · ·other besides counsel or speak with anybody
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`17· · ·else besides counsel regarding the deposition?
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`18· · · · · ·A· Not specifically related to the
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`19· · ·deposition, but just general conversations with
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`20· · ·maybe some of my colleagues here where I work.
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`21· · · · · ·Q· And what did you discuss with those
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`22· · ·colleagues?
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`23· · · · · ·A· Just -- well, for context, I mean, we
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`24· · ·do a lot of work with lipid analysis and that
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`25· · ·includes work with some troubled samples.
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0009
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
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`·2· · · · · · · So just general conversations about
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`·3· · ·lipid analysis of krill.
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`·4· · · · · ·Q· What types of lipid analysis did you
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`·5· · ·discuss?
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`·6· · · · · ·A· GLC and TLC, for example.
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`·7· · · · · ·Q· And what did you discuss with respect
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`·8· · ·to TLC, which is thin-layer chromatography?
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`·9· · · · · ·A· Just general conversation on the
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`10· · ·things that effect the development of a TLC
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`11· · ·plate.
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`12· · · · · ·Q· And do you remember any specifics on
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`13· · ·those conversations?
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`14· · · · · ·A· No, no specifics.
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`15· · · · · ·Q· And have you, yourself, ever performed
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`16· · ·thin-layered chromatography?
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`17· · · · · ·A· I have as an exercise on how TLC
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`18· · ·analysis is done.· I don't carry out actual
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`19· · ·analysis myself.
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`20· · · · · ·Q· Are there any lipid analyses that you
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`21· · ·carry out yourself?
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`22· · · · · ·A· I don't physically prepare the samples
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`23· · ·or the analysis myself, but I commissioned a
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`24· · ·lot of analyses through our analysis groups and
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`25· · ·other analysis labs.
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0010
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
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`·2· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· So I'd like you to get out
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`·3· · ·first the Patino 2 reference.· Do you have that
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`·4· · ·handy?
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`·5· · · · · ·A· Yes, I can access that.
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`·6· · · · · ·Q· Okay.
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`·7· · · · · · · · · ·MR. CHAKANSKY:· Do you want to
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`·8· · · · · · · identify it by exhibit number?
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`·9· · · · · · · · · ·MR. JONES:· Yes.
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`10· · · · · · · · · ·MR. CHAKANSKY:· 1038.
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`11· · · · · · · · · ·MR. JONES:· Thank you.
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`12· · · · · ·Q· Exhibit 1038.
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`13· · · · · ·A· Okay.· I've got that available.
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`14· · · · · ·Q· And could you also -- do you also have
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`15· · ·Exhibit 2002 available, which is Friedman &
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`16· · ·West?
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`17· · · · · ·A· Okay, I've got that open.
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`18· · · · · ·Q· Okay, great.· So first referring to
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`19· · ·Exhibit 2002, page 0001, the solvent system one
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`20· · ·of Exhibit 2002 is diethyl ether, benzene,
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`21· · ·ethenol, and acidic acid in a ratio of
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`22· · ·40:50:2:.2; is that correct?
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`23· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
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`24· · · · · ·Q· Just for clarity, when the solvent
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`25· · ·solution is listed that way, that's in parts
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0011
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
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`·2· · ·that are in the solvent solution, correct?
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`·3· · · · · ·A· That would be correct.
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`·4· · · · · ·Q· So it would be say 40 parts of diethyl
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`·5· · ·ether, 50 parts of benzene, two parts of
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`·6· · ·ethenol, and 0.2 parts of acidic acid, correct?
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`·7· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
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`·8· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· Exhibit 2002 also utilized a
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`·9· · ·second solvent of diethyl ether and hexane in a
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`10· · ·ratio of 6 parts to 94 parts, correct?
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`11· · · · · ·A· That's what's reported in the
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`12· · ·publication, yes.
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`13· · · · · ·Q· In order to conduct their TLC, they
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`14· · ·first developed it in solvent system number
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`15· · ·one, and then in solvent system number two,
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`16· · ·correct, so it was a two-part solvent system?
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`17· · · · · · · · · ·MR. CHAKANSKY:· Objection to
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`18· · · · · · · form.
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`19· · · · · ·A· Refresh my memory on the whole
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`20· · ·document to say that it doesn't describe a
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`21· · ·range of a selection of different things, but
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`22· · ·in general the publication does describe a
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`23· · ·two-solvent system using those two solvents.
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`24· · · · · ·Q· What is your understanding of what a
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`25· · ·two-layer solvent system is in thin-layer
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0012
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
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`·2· · ·chromatography?
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`·3· · · · · ·A· In basic terms, it involves putting
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`·4· · ·the plate into the first solvent, letting it
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`·5· · ·progress for some period of time, and then
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`·6· · ·transferring it into the second solvent system,
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`·7· · ·and then letting the same plate develop
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`·8· · ·further.
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`·9· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· Then next I would like to
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`10· · ·direct your attention to Exhibit 1038, which is
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`11· · ·Patino 2.
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`12· · · · · ·A· Okay.
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`13· · · · · ·Q· Specifically page 0002.
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`14· · · · · ·A· Okay.
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`15· · · · · ·Q· Do you see that in the first column
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`16· · ·they say that the lipids were separated by the
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`17· · ·method of Friedman & West 1966, correct, or do
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`18· · ·you see that?
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`19· · · · · ·A· I can see this relates to that.
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`20· · · · · ·Q· Friedman & West 1966 is Exhibit 2002,
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`21· · ·correct?
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`22· · · · · ·A· That's my understanding.
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`23· · · · · ·Q· There it says that acidic acid was
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`24· · ·eliminated from solvent mixture number one to
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`25· · ·simplify the drying between developments; is
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0013
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
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`·2· · ·that correct?
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`·3· · · · · ·A· You're referring here to Patino 2?
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`·4· · · · · ·Q· Correct, yes.
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`·5· · · · · ·A· Among other things it describes -- it
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`·6· · ·says acidic acid was eliminated from the
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`·7· · ·solvent mixture number one to simplify the
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`·8· · ·drying between developments.
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`·9· · · · · ·Q· And it also says that it's
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`10· · ·adsorbosil-5, A-D-S-O-R-B-O-S-I-L-5, it says
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`11· · ·adsorbosil-5 was used instead of silica gel-G.
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`12· · ·Do you see that?
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`13· · · · · ·A· I can see that, yes.
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`14· · · · · ·Q· So going back to the solvent mixture
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`15· · ·number one --
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`16· · · · · · · · · ·MR. CHAKANSKY:· Are you going to
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`17· · · · · · · a different exhibit now?
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`18· · · · · · · · · ·MR. JONES:· No, this is
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`19· · · · · · · Exhibit 1038, Patina 2.
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`20· · · · · ·Q· So solvent system one, acidic acid was
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`21· · ·eliminated from solvent mixture number one.
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`22· · · · · · · So do you take that to mean that the
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`23· · ·solvent mixture they used would contain 40
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`24· · ·parts diethyl ether, 50 parts benzene, and 2
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`25· · ·parts ethenol?
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0014
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
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`·2· · · · · ·A· Yes, that would be my expectation.
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`·3· · · · · ·Q· Okay, great.· So next I would like to
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`·4· · ·direct your attention to your declaration,
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`·5· · ·which is Exhibit 1086.
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`·6· · · · · ·A· Okay.
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`·7· · · · · ·Q· Specifically to paragraph 35 on page
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`·8· · ·0021.
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`·9· · · · · ·A· Okay.
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`10· · · · · ·Q· So there do you see the reference
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`11· · ·to -- well, let me set up the question first
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`12· · ·and then I want to clarify something.
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`13· · · · · · · In paragraph 35 it says secondly, as
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`14· · ·discussed above it in paragraphs 24 to 26, and
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`15· · ·further discussed below, the presence of free
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`16· · ·fatty acids with a RF factor between those of
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`17· · ·triglycerides and diglycerides were the
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`18· · ·"unknown" close spot, as located in Patino 2,
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`19· · ·is common in other prior art using TLC analysis
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`20· · ·with similar low-polarity allusion solvents
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`21· · ·designed for neutral lipid separation.
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`22· · · · · · · Do you see that?
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`23· · · · · ·A· I do.
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`24· · · · · ·Q· What do you mean by similar
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`25· · ·low-polarity allusion solvents?
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0015
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
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`·2· · · · · ·A· Well, I'd refer you to the other
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`·3· · ·reference parts of my declaration for that, for
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`·4· · ·example paragraphs 24 to 26, and there's other
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`·5· · ·discussion later on.
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`·6· · · · · ·Q· So in this paragraph are you
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`·7· · ·indicating that Patino 2 used a low-polarity
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`·8· · ·solution solvent?
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`·9· · · · · ·A· A low-polarity allusion solvent
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`10· · ·designed for separation of lipid acids, yes.
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`11· · ·That's quite apparent.
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`12· · · · · ·Q· Is the allusion solvent system
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`13· · ·described in Exhibit 2002 Friedman & West a
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`14· · ·low-polarity allusion solvent?
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`15· · · · · ·A· Well, a low-polarity allusion solvent
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`16· · ·designed for separation of lipid classes,
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`17· · ·that's implicit in the results of Patino 2
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`18· · ·because that's the analysis that's been carried
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`19· · ·out --
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`20· · · · · ·Q· I know but --
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`21· · · · · ·A· -- solvent.
`
`22· · · · · ·Q· Sorry, go ahead.
`
`23· · · · · ·A· I was going to say if the solvent
`
`24· · ·system wasn't a suitable one for doing their
`
`25· · ·separation, then they wouldn't have an
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0016
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`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · ·analysis.
`
`·3· · · · · ·Q· But what I'm asking you is would you
`
`·4· · ·also classify the solvent system used in
`
`·5· · ·Exhibit 2002 Friedman & West as a low-polarity
`
`·6· · ·solution solvent designed for neutral lipid
`
`·7· · ·separation?
`
`·8· · · · · ·A· Yes.· That's how -- well, that's how I
`
`·9· · ·have described it.
`
`10· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· Let's go to paragraph 36. I
`
`11· · ·think for this, if you could look at
`
`12· · ·Exhibit 1162 for questions in relation to this
`
`13· · ·paragraph.
`
`14· · · · · · · · · ·MR. CHAKANSKY:· You want him to
`
`15· · · · · · · go bring Yamaguchi 1162 up and him to
`
`16· · · · · · · read paragraph 36, too?
`
`17· · · · · · · · · ·MR. JONES:· I think you will need
`
`18· · · · · · · Exhibit 1086 and Exhibit 1162.
`
`19· · · · · ·A· Okay.
`
`20· · · · · ·Q· And then referring to page 0022 of
`
`21· · ·your -- of Exhibit 1086, in paragraph 36, do
`
`22· · ·you see there that you exerted a table from
`
`23· · ·Exhibit 1162 or -- sorry.· Let's strike that.
`
`24· · · · · · · Do you see that you excerpted figure
`
`25· · ·two from Exhibit 1162 of Yamaguchi?
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0017
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
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`·2· · · · · ·A· Sorry, what was the question?
`
`·3· · · · · ·Q· Sorry, it's late in the afternoon.
`
`·4· · ·Referring to page 0022 of your declaration,
`
`·5· · ·Exhibit 1086, do you see that?
`
`·6· · · · · · · (Whereupon, M. Romero joined the Zoom
`
`·7· · ·conference.)
`
`·8· · · · · ·Q· You reproduced figure two from
`
`·9· · ·Exhibit 1162 there?
`
`10· · · · · ·A· Yes, I do.
`
`11· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· You labeled three different
`
`12· · ·spots in that exhibit, correct?
`
`13· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`14· · · · · ·Q· Spot three is triglycerides, spot four
`
`15· · ·is free fatty acid, and spot five is
`
`16· · ·diglycerides, correct?
`
`17· · · · · ·A· You can refer back to Exhibit 1162 for
`
`18· · ·that, but yes, triglycerides are described in
`
`19· · ·spot three, free fatty acids is spot four, and
`
`20· · ·diglycerides is spot five.
`
`21· · · · · ·Q· There are a number of other spots
`
`22· · ·identified in the first panel in figure 2 of
`
`23· · ·1162; is that correct?
`
`24· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`25· · · · · ·Q· Those are spots 1, 2, 6, 7, 8, 9,
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0018
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
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`·2· · ·correct?
`
`·3· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`·4· · · · · ·Q· Spot 1 is identified in Exhibit 1162
`
`·5· · ·as a hydrocarbon, correct?
`
`·6· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`·7· · · · · ·Q· And do you know in this context what a
`
`·8· · ·hydrocarbon would be?
`
`·9· · · · · ·A· I do.
`
`10· · · · · ·Q· And what is that?
`
`11· · · · · ·A· A hydrocarbon is just a straight
`
`12· · ·carbon chain.
`
`13· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· Spot 2 is identified as a
`
`14· · ·cholesterol; is that correct?
`
`15· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`16· · · · · ·Q· Spot 6 is indicated to be a
`
`17· · ·carotenoid, correct?
`
`18· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`19· · · · · ·Q· Spot 7 is a cholesterol; is that
`
`20· · ·correct?
`
`21· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`22· · · · · ·Q· Spot 8 is a monoglyceride; is that
`
`23· · ·correct?
`
`24· · · · · ·A· Yes.
`
`25· · · · · ·Q· And spot 9 is also identified as being
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0019
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · ·a carotenoid; is that correct?
`
`·3· · · · · ·A· Yes.
`
`·4· · · · · ·Q· And here I'm going to refer to the
`
`·5· · ·different panels in figure 2 of Exhibit 1162.
`
`·6· · · · · · · Is panel A, B, and C going from right
`
`·7· · ·to left, is that a reasonable way to do it?
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · ·MR. CHAKANSKY:· Objection to
`
`·9· · · · · · · form.
`
`10· · · · · ·A· If you want to refer to the panels.
`
`11· · ·They have numbers underneath them, if that's
`
`12· · ·more useful.
`
`13· · · · · ·Q· I'm sorry.· Okay.
`
`14· · · · · ·A· So two and three.
`
`15· · · · · ·Q· Here we're referring to the panel
`
`16· · ·labeled as Roman Numeral I.
`
`17· · · · · ·A· That's the one we have been referring
`
`18· · ·to on the left.
`
`19· · · · · ·Q· Correct, yeah, thank you.· Okay, and
`
`20· · ·that TLC experiment that's represented by panel
`
`21· · ·Roman Numeral I, the free fatty acids migrated
`
`22· · ·between triglycerides and diglycerides,
`
`23· · ·correct?
`
`24· · · · · ·A· You're referring to panel one?
`
`25· · · · · ·Q· Yes.
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0020
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`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · · · · ·A· Yes, that's correct.
`
`·3· · · · · ·Q· And the other spots representing
`
`·4· · ·hydrocarbons, cholesterol ester, spot 6 being
`
`·5· · ·carotenoids, spot 7 cholesterol, spot 8
`
`·6· · ·monoglycerides, and spot 9 carotenoids, did not
`
`·7· · ·migrate between triglycerides and diglycerides,
`
`·8· · ·correct?
`
`·9· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`10· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· So moving onto paragraph 37 of
`
`11· · ·your declaration Exhibit 1086, you referred to
`
`12· · ·Exhibit 1172, which is Tsuyuki.
`
`13· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`14· · · · · ·A· Yep.
`
`15· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· Can you -- well, you can either
`
`16· · ·get out -- if you need to get out Exhibit 1172,
`
`17· · ·please feel free to do so.
`
`18· · · · · · · Otherwise, we're going to be referring
`
`19· · ·to figure one of Tsuyuki Exhibit 1172, which is
`
`20· · ·reproduced in paragraph 37 of Exhibit 1086.
`
`21· · · · · ·A· Okay.
`
`22· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· In figure 1 of Exhibit 1172,
`
`23· · ·that's also the result of a TLC experiment,
`
`24· · ·correct?
`
`25· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0021
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · · · · ·Q· Referring to panel 8, there's a number
`
`·3· · ·of different lipid species identified, correct?
`
`·4· · · · · ·A· That's correct, yes.
`
`·5· · · · · ·Q· And here they're using abbreviations,
`
`·6· · ·so SE stands for sterile ester, correct?
`
`·7· · · · · ·A· Yes.
`
`·8· · · · · ·Q· And would you understand that to be a
`
`·9· · ·cholesterol ester?
`
`10· · · · · ·A· In the case of krill predominantly,
`
`11· · ·yes.
`
`12· · · · · ·Q· This is krill, correct?
`
`13· · · · · ·A· Referring to Tsuyuki Exhibit 1172 --
`
`14· · ·let me just refresh my memory, but it is
`
`15· · ·specifically about krill this appears, yep.
`
`16· · · · · ·Q· Are you ready or do you need to
`
`17· · ·refresh your memory some more?
`
`18· · · · · ·A· Give me a moment.
`
`19· · · · · ·Q· Okay.
`
`20· · · · · ·A· Okay.
`
`21· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· So panel A of figure one is
`
`22· · ·lipids extracted from a raw frozen sample of
`
`23· · ·krill, correct?
`
`24· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`25· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· And so again, going back, so SE
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0022
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · ·stands for sterile ester, correct?
`
`·3· · · · · ·A· Yes.
`
`·4· · · · · ·Q· Would you assume that to be a
`
`·5· · ·cholesterol ester?
`
`·6· · · · · ·A· Yes.
`
`·7· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· And TG is triglycerides,
`
`·8· · ·correct?
`
`·9· · · · · ·A· Yes.
`
`10· · · · · ·Q· FFA is free fatty acids?
`
`11· · · · · ·A· Yes.
`
`12· · · · · ·Q· P is pigments, correct?
`
`13· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`14· · · · · ·Q· And would the pigments be carotenoids?
`
`15· · · · · ·A· For the most part.
`
`16· · · · · ·Q· DG stands for diglycerides, correct?
`
`17· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`18· · · · · ·Q· S is sterile, correct?
`
`19· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`20· · · · · ·Q· That would be most likely cholesterol;
`
`21· · ·is that correct?
`
`22· · · · · ·A· Predominantly cholesterol, yes.
`
`23· · · · · ·Q· And then you have MG, which is
`
`24· · ·monoglycerides, correct?
`
`25· · · · · ·A· Correct.
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0023
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · · · · ·Q· And PL, which is phospho lipids,
`
`·3· · ·correct?
`
`·4· · · · · ·A· Correct.
`
`·5· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· So in panel A of Exhibit 1172,
`
`·6· · ·the free fatty acids migrate between the
`
`·7· · ·diglycerides and triglycerides; is that
`
`·8· · ·correct?
`
`·9· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`10· · · · · ·Q· The sterile esters, steriles and
`
`11· · ·monoglycerides, do not migrate between
`
`12· · ·triglycerides and diglycerides; is that
`
`13· · ·correct?
`
`14· · · · · · · · · ·MR. CHAKANSKY:· Objection, form.
`
`15· · · · · ·A· I'm trying to remind myself what
`
`16· · ·you're asking.· You're asking if the --
`
`17· · · · · ·Q· I'll break it down for you.· The
`
`18· · ·sterile esters do not migrate between the
`
`19· · ·triglycerides and diglycerides, correct?
`
`20· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`21· · · · · ·Q· The steriles do not migrate between
`
`22· · ·the diglycerides and triglycerides, correct?
`
`23· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`24· · · · · ·Q· The monoglycerides do not migrate
`
`25· · ·between the diglycerides and triglycerides,
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0024
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · ·correct?
`
`·3· · · · · ·A· That's correct.
`
`·4· · · · · ·Q· One of the pigment bands does not
`
`·5· · ·migrate between diglycerides and triglycerides;
`
`·6· · ·is that correct?
`
`·7· · · · · ·A· Yes, that's correct.
`
`·8· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· You can put away Exhibit 1172.
`
`·9· · · · · · · Next I would like to go to your
`
`10· · ·declaration, Exhibit 1086, to paragraph 19,
`
`11· · ·page 0012.
`
`12· · · · · ·A· Okay.
`
`13· · · · · ·Q· I suppose let's look at paragraph 20
`
`14· · ·as well, if you take some time to review that.
`
`15· · · · · ·A· Okay.
`
`16· · · · · ·Q· So with regard to the method used --
`
`17· · ·with regard to the thin-layer chromatography
`
`18· · ·method used in Exhibit 1038, there were
`
`19· · ·modifications to the method of the TLC method
`
`20· · ·used in Exhibit 2002, Friedman & West, correct?
`
`21· · · · · ·A· You can get that direct from Patino.
`
`22· · · · · ·Q· Yeah, and so --
`
`23· · · · · ·A· It's described as being separated by
`
`24· · ·the method of Friedman & West with a number of
`
`25· · ·modifications.
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0025
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · · · · ·Q· And what are those modifications?
`
`·3· · · · · ·A· My declaration, in fact, gives a
`
`·4· · ·reasonable description of those.· I mean, I can
`
`·5· · ·direct to part of it.
`
`·6· · · · · · · So from my declaration, paragraphs 20,
`
`·7· · ·21, 22, 23 describe the differences.· There are
`
`·8· · ·a number that are listed by Patino itself and
`
`·9· · ·there are a number of other variations that
`
`10· · ·would have occurred as well.
`
`11· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· So one of the modifications
`
`12· · ·listed by Patino?
`
`13· · · · · ·A· Well, you can read that from Patino
`
`14· · ·itself and you pointed them out earlier, I
`
`15· · ·believe.· Do you want me to read it?
`
`16· · · · · ·Q· Yes.
`
`17· · · · · ·A· So in Exhibit 1038, Patino 2, there's
`
`18· · ·the sentence describing a method which reads
`
`19· · ·for quantitative fractionation of lipid
`
`20· · ·classes, 20 to 40 milligrams of lipids were
`
`21· · ·separated by the method of Friedman & West 1966
`
`22· · ·modified as follows.
`
`23· · · · · · · It's got A, silica gel without binder
`
`24· · ·was used in a state of silica gel T.· B, acidic
`
`25· · ·acid was eliminated from the solvent mixture
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0026
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · ·number 1 to simplify the drying between
`
`·3· · ·developments.
`
`·4· · · · · · · Then C, quantitation of the spots was
`
`·5· · ·done by gravimetry and not by telemetry of
`
`·6· · ·dichromatic reduction.
`
`·7· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· So the first two of those, the
`
`·8· · ·use of adsorbosil-5 and the elimination of
`
`·9· · ·acidic acid, refer to the actual thin-layer of
`
`10· · ·chromatography itself, correct?
`
`11· · · · · ·A· Well, as stated, they refer to the gel
`
`12· · ·in the binder used on the plate, so that's the
`
`13· · ·plate itself.
`
`14· · · · · · · The elimination of acidic acid relates
`
`15· · ·to the solvent mixture that's used for the
`
`16· · ·development.
`
`17· · · · · ·Q· Okay.· And those are the two
`
`18· · ·modifications that you referred to in paragraph
`
`19· · ·20 of your declaration, correct?
`
`20· · · · · ·A· Yep.· That's what I refer to in
`
`21· · ·paragraph 20.
`
`22· · · · · ·Q· And then you say both of these
`
`23· · ·modifications are key determinants in the order
`
`24· · ·of the presentation of the components and TLC
`
`25· · ·analysis.
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0027
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`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · · · · · · Do you see that statement?
`
`·3· · · · · ·A· I do.
`
`·4· · · · · ·Q· What do you mean by key determinates
`
`·5· · ·in the order of presentation of the components
`
`·6· · ·in TLC analysis?
`
`·7· · · · · ·A· What I mean is that they are things
`
`·8· · ·that can have a significant influence on the
`
`·9· · ·way the components are separated in TLC
`
`10· · ·analysis.
`
`11· · · · · ·Q· What do you mean by significant
`
`12· · ·influence?
`
`13· · · · · ·A· It means that the selection of those,
`
`14· · ·you know, if you change your selection of
`
`15· · ·those, then you can change what you see in the
`
`16· · ·analysis.
`
`17· · · · · ·Q· Did you do any experimental repeats or
`
`18· · ·methods comparing the modified method of Patino
`
`19· · ·2 versus the method of Friedman & West?
`
`20· · · · · ·A· No.· There was no need for that.
`
`21· · · · · ·Q· Do any of the papers cited in your
`
`22· · ·declaration, Exhibit 1086, provide a comparison
`
`23· · ·of the method used in Patino 2 versus the
`
`24· · ·method described in Friedman & West?
`
`25· · · · · ·A· No, and there's no need for that.· The
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0028
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`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · ·results of Patino stand by themselves.
`
`·3· · · · · ·Q· Do any of the references cited in your
`
`·4· · ·declaration, Exhibit 1086, provide a comparison
`
`·5· · ·of a solvent system containing 0.2 parts of
`
`·6· · ·acidic acid versus a solvent system not
`
`·7· · ·containing acidic acid?
`
`·8· · · · · ·A· I'll have to read them all again to
`
`·9· · ·answer that question.
`
`10· · · · · ·Q· You're not aware as you sit here now
`
`11· · ·if any of the references cited in your
`
`12· · ·declaration, Exhibit 1086, provide comparison
`
`13· · ·of a solvent system containing 0.2 parts of
`
`14· · ·acidic acid versus a solvent system not
`
`15· · ·containing 0.2 parts of acidic acid?
`
`16· · · · · ·A· As I said before, I wasn't -- in my
`
`17· · ·declaration, I wasn't looking specifically for
`
`18· · ·that because the interpretation of Patino in
`
`19· · ·itself was clear.
`
`20· · · · · ·Q· So is it fair to say that none of the
`
`21· · ·references you cite in your declaration provide
`
`22· · ·a comparison of a solvent system containing
`
`23· · ·acidic acid and a solvent system not containing
`
`24· · ·acidic acid?
`
`25· · · · · ·A· I believe I answered that.
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0029
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`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · · · · ·Q· Then what was the answer?
`
`·3· · · · · ·A· The answer was that I would need to
`
`·4· · ·read them again to say whether or not something
`
`·5· · ·was or wasn't in there.
`
`·6· · · · · ·Q· Do any of the references cited in your
`
`·7· · ·declaration, Exhibit 1086, show a difference on
`
`·8· · ·the migration of diglycerides, triglycerides,
`
`·9· · ·and free fatty acids in the presence or absence
`
`10· · ·of acidic acid in the solvent system?
`
`11· · · · · · · · · ·MR. CHAKANSKY:· Objection, form.
`
`12· · · · · ·A· I think I answered that question also
`
`13· · ·before.
`
`14· · · · · ·Q· So the answer is you would have to
`
`15· · ·look at those references?
`
`16· · · · · ·A· That, and that that was not something
`
`17· · ·I was looking to present in my declaration
`
`18· · ·because it doesn't affect the opinions that I
`
`19· · ·put forward in it.
`
`20· · · · · ·Q· Would you like to look through those
`
`21· · ·papers to see if any of those -- any of the
`
`22· · ·exhibits cited in your declaration demonstrate
`
`23· · ·that diglycerides, triglycerides, and free
`
`24· · ·fatty acids migrate differently in a solvent
`
`25· · ·system, including acidic acid, compared to the
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0030
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`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · ·same solvent system not including acidic acid?
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · ·MR. CHAKANSKY:· Objection, form.
`
`·4· · · · · ·A· What is your actual question?
`
`·5· · · · · · · You're asking if I want to read
`
`·6· · ·through them or you're asking me to read
`
`·7· · ·through them?
`
`·8· · · · · ·Q· I'm asking you -- let's do this again.
`
`·9· · ·Let me ask the second question.
`
`10· · · · · · · This is related to the other
`
`11· · ·modification of the method of Friedman & West
`
`12· · ·concerning the change from adsorbosil-5 from
`
`13· · ·silica gel-G.
`
`14· · · · · · · Do you cite any evidence from any
`
`15· · ·publication that shows a difference in the
`
`16· · ·migration of diglycerides, triglycerides, and
`
`17· · ·free fatty acids in a TLC system using
`
`18· · ·adsorbosil-5 as opposed to silica gel-G?
`
`19· · · · · · · · · ·MR. CHAKANSKY:· Objection to
`
`20· · · · · · · form.
`
`21· · · · · ·A· Sorry, can I have that question again?
`
`22· · · · · ·Q· Do any of the references cited in your
`
`23· · ·declaration contain an experiment that shows a
`
`24· · ·difference in the migration of diglycerides,
`
`25· · ·triglycerides, and free fatty acids when using
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0031
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · ·adsorbosil-5 as opposed to silica gel-G?
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · ·MR. CHAKANSKY:· Objection to
`
`·4· · · · · · · form.
`
`·5· · · · · ·A· The answer to that is probably not,
`
`·6· · ·because, you know, as I've described in my
`
`·7· · ·declaration, different TLC analyses using
`
`·8· · ·different plates can result in some
`
`·9· · ·differences, and each individual plate can be
`
`10· · ·quite unique.
`
`11· · · · · · · So it would be unusual to find a
`
`12· · ·direct comparison between two very specific
`
`13· · ·studies.
`
`14· · · · · ·Q· So there's no comparison of the effect
`
`15· · ·on the use of adsorbosil-5 instead of silica
`
`16· · ·gel-G on the migration of diglycerides,
`
`17· · ·triglycerides, and free fatty acids in any
`
`18· · ·solvent system; is that correct?
`
`19· · · · · · · · · ·MR. CHAKANSKY:· Objection to
`
`20· · · · · · · form.
`
`21· · · · · ·A· No, that's not what I said, but I
`
`22· · ·would be surprised if there was any specific
`
`23· · ·study on that very specific set of
`
`24· · ·circumstances.
`
`25· · · · · · · And again, as I said before, you
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2020 PAGE 0032
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·S. TALLON
`
`·2· · ·should read an analysis on its own merits.
`
`·3· · · · ·
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