· · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · - - - - -
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`· · ·RIMFROST as
`· · ·Petitioner
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`· · · · · vs.
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`· · ·AKER BIOMARINE ANTARTIC as
`· · ·Patent Owner
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`· · ·Case IPR No. IPR2020-01532 Patent No. 9,644,169 B2
`· · ·Case IPR No. IPR2020-01533 Patent No. 9,816,046 B2
`· · ·Case IPR No. IPR2020-01534 Patent No. 10,010,567 B2
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · - - - - -
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`· · · · · · · · ·Thursday, June 17, 2021
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · - - - - -
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`· · · · · · · ·Zoom Remote Deposition of DR. STEPHEN J.
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`· · ·TALLON, conducted at the location of the witness in
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`· · ·Lower Hutt, Wellington, New Zealand, commencing at
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`· · ·3:56 p.m. Eastern Time, by and before Robin L.
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`· · ·Clark, Registered Professional Reporter and Notary
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`· · ·Public.
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0001
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`· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · - - - - -
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`·
`· · ·RIMFROST as
`· · ·Petitioner
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`· · · · · vs.
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`· · ·AKER BIOMARINE ANTARTIC as
`· · ·Patent Owner
`·
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`·
`· · ·Case IPR No. IPR2020-01532 Patent No. 9,644,169 B2
`· · ·Case IPR No. IPR2020-01533 Patent No. 9,816,046 B2
`· · ·Case IPR No. IPR2020-01534 Patent No. 10,010,567 B2
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · - - - - -
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`·
`· · · · · · · · ·Thursday, June 17, 2021
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · - - - - -
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`· · · · · · · ·Zoom Remote Deposition of DR. STEPHEN J.
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`· · ·TALLON, conducted at the location of the witness in
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`· · ·Lower Hutt, Wellington, New Zealand, commencing at
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`· · ·3:56 p.m. Eastern Time, by and before Robin L.
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`· · ·Clark, Registered Professional Reporter and Notary
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`· · ·Public.
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · - - - - -
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0001
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`·1· ·REMOTE APPEARANCES:
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`·2
`· · · · · · · ·HOFFMAN & BARON, LLP
`·3· · · · · · ·BY:· MICHAEL I. CHAKANSKY, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · ·6 Campus Drive
`·4· · · · · · ·Parsippany, New Jersey· 07054
`· · · · · · · ·973-331-1700
`·5· · · · · · ·mchakansky@hbiplaw.com
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·For the Petitioner
`·6
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`·7
`· · · · · · · ·CASIMIR JONES
`·8· · · · · · ·BY:· J. MITCHELL JONES, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · ·2275 Deming Way, Suite 310
`·9· · · · · · ·Middletown, Wisconsin 53562
`· · · · · · · ·608-662-1277
`10· · · · · · ·jmjones@casimirjones.com
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·For the Patent Owner
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0002
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·2· ·WITNESS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·3· ·DR. STEPHEN TALLON
`· · · ·BY MR. JONES:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·5
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0003
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`·1· · · · · · · DEPOSITION SUPPORT INDEX
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`·4· ·Direction to Witness Not to Answer
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`·5· ·Page· Line
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`·6· ·NONE
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`·7· ·Request for Production of Documents
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`·9· ·NONE
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`10· ·Question Marked
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`12· ·NONE
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0004
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · - - - - -
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`·2· · · · · · · ·DR. STEPHEN TALLON, having been
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`·3· · · · · ·duly sworn, was examined and testified
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`·4· · · · · ·as follows:
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · - - - - -
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`·6· ·BY MR. JONES:
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`·7· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Great.· Good morning,
`
`·8· ·Dr. Tallon.
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`·9· · · · · A.· ·Good morning.
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`10· · · · · Q.· ·So today, we're here for a
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`11· ·deposition related to three IPR proceedings
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`12· ·that are pending before the Patent Trial and
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`13· ·Appeals Board.· The first is IPR2020-01532 for
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`14· ·U.S. Patent 9,644,169.· Do you remember
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`15· ·submitting a declaration for that case?
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`16· · · · · A.· ·I do.
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`17· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then the second is
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`18· ·IPR2020-1533 for U.S. Patent No. 9,816,046.
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`19· ·And do you remember submitting a declaration
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`20· ·for that case?
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`21· · · · · A.· ·I do.
`
`22· · · · · Q.· ·And then the third is 2020-01534
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`23· ·for U.S. Patent 10,010,967.· And do you
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`24· ·remember submitting a declaration for that
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`25· ·case?
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0005
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`·1· · · · · A.· ·I do.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · MR. CHAKANSKY:· Mitch, I
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`·3· · · · · ·don't mean to interrupt, but I'm sorry
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`·4· · · · · ·I am.· Because there are three IPRs, if
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`·5· · · · · ·you can direct him with your questions,
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`·6· · · · · ·you know, where the question is to
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`·7· · · · · ·which IPR, it would be helpful.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · MR. JONES:· Yeah, we will.
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`·9· · · · · ·we will.
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`10· · · · · · · · · · · MR. CHAKANSKY:· Thank you.
`
`11· ·BY MR. JONES:
`
`12· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· First, I'm going to start
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`13· ·off with some general questions, but yeah, when
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`14· ·we get down to specific declarations, I will
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`15· ·certainly direct him to those declarations.
`
`16· · · · · · · · ·So the first thing I want to
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`17· ·start off with going over your background a
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`18· ·bit.· And so for the first, if you want to or
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`19· ·if you need to, I think we can start off with
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`20· ·your declaration for the '169 patent, which is
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`21· ·Exhibit 1006, and I believe you have your CV
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`22· ·attached to that.
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`23· · · · · A.· ·Correct.
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`24· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you may not have to
`
`25· ·refer to your CV for these questions, but if
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0006
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`·1· ·you want to, you can.· So all right.· So
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`·2· ·Mr. Tallon, do you have your bachelor's in
`
`·3· ·chemical and process engineering, a master's in
`
`·4· ·chemical and materials engineering, and a Ph.D.
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`·5· ·in chemical and materials engineering; is that
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`·6· ·correct?
`
`·7· · · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`·8· · · · · Q.· ·And you're currently employed at
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`·9· ·Callaghan Innovation in New Zealand, correct?
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`10· · · · · A.· ·That's correct.
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`11· · · · · Q.· ·So could you explain just in
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`12· ·general what your role is at Callaghan
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`13· ·Innovation?
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`14· · · · · A.· ·So first, Callaghan Innovation is a
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`15· ·government -- a New Zealand government-owned
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`16· ·entity and the general purpose of Callaghan
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`17· ·Innovation is to support mainly New Zealand
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`18· ·industries to, you know, develop new
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`19· ·technologies, new products.· My particular role
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`20· ·at Callaghan Innovation, currently, I lead a
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`21· ·team of about eight or nine people and we work
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`22· ·in the -- we call ourselves the biotechnology
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`23· ·team.· We work primarily with helping companies
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`24· ·develop new food or health products.
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`25· · · · · Q.· ·And what's your role within the
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0007
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`·1· ·biotech team?
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`·2· · · · · A.· ·My role currently is, I'm the team
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`·3· ·leader of the group of nine people that I
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`·4· ·mentioned.
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`·5· · · · · Q.· ·And as part of that team, do each
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`·6· ·of the team members have different types of
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`·7· ·experience?
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`·8· · · · · A.· ·Yes, the team members all have
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`·9· ·their own particular experience, but the group
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`10· ·is largely in the sort of processing and
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`11· ·engineering skills area.· I also have two guys
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`12· ·in a workshop who report to me, so they do, you
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`13· ·know, their skills and specialties are in
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`14· ·machining of objects.· But other team members
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`15· ·have a similar sort of skill set and experience
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`16· ·to mine.
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`17· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So the members of the team,
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`18· ·is it fair to say that they're primarily
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`19· ·chemical engineers or engineers?
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`20· · · · · A.· ·Yes, chemical engineering, biotech
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`21· ·engineering.· That's within my team.· And I'm
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`22· ·also part of a wider group that has staff with
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`23· ·experience in, you know, lipid chemistry and
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`24· ·analysis.
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`25· · · · · Q.· ·And are they under a different team
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0008
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`·1· ·leader at Callaghan?
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`·2· · · · · A.· ·Yes.
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`·3· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So is it fair to say that
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`·4· ·your group is primarily involved on the
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`·5· ·engineering side of developing processes for
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`·6· ·extraction of natural materials?
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`·7· · · · · A.· ·In very broad terms, yes.
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`·8· ·Experience is mainly working with biological
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`·9· ·materials.
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`10· · · · · Q.· ·And what type of, from an
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`11· ·engineering standpoint, what type of work do
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`12· ·you do with those biological materials?
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`13· · · · · A.· ·We do a fairly broad range of work.
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`14· ·Some of the work we do is operating a pilot
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`15· ·facility, so we have a fairly good collection
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`16· ·of different unit operations that would
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`17· ·typically be used for preparing health food
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`18· ·products.· And we use those facilities to test
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`19· ·out new ideas, test out new products.· But we
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`20· ·also do some basic work around characterizing
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`21· ·the materials, looking at how different
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`22· ·formulations work together, looking at the
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`23· ·stability of materials.
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`24· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And do the people within
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`25· ·your group, and that's the process engineering
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0009
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`·1· ·group, is that what it's referred to?
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`·2· · · · · A.· ·My team is currently called the
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`·3· ·process engineering team.· The wider group that
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`·4· ·I'm part of we call the biotechnologies group.
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`·5· · · · · Q.· ·So within your process engineering
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`·6· ·team of which you're the team leader, do the
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`·7· ·members of that team do any biochemical
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`·8· ·analysis?
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`·9· · · · · A.· ·What do you mean by biochemical
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`10· ·analysis?
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`11· · · · · Q.· ·Do the members of the process
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`12· ·engineering team, do you do analysis of lipids
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`13· ·within the group?
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`14· · · · · A.· ·We, as part of our work, we
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`15· ·contract a lot of analysis.· The actual
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`16· ·preparing, so the actual technician that puts
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`17· ·the samples into a GC, those people report to
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`18· ·one of my colleagues, but we -- as part of
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`19· ·their work, we certainly do carry out a lot of
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`20· ·lipid analysis.
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`21· · · · · Q.· ·And so your group contracts, when
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`22· ·you need analysis of lipids done or biochemical
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`23· ·characterization of lipids done, you contract
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`24· ·that out to different groups at Callaghan?
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`25· · · · · · · · · · · MR. CHAKANSKY:· Objection,
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0010
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`·1· · · · · ·form.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Can you
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`·3· · · · · ·rephrase the question?· There are
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`·4· · · · · ·multiple parts to it.
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`·5· ·BY MR. JONES:
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`·6· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So your process engineering
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`·7· ·team, when you develop a process or when you're
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`·8· ·working on a process for extraction of lipids,
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`·9· ·as part of that process, some of the time you
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`10· ·need an analysis of the lipids performed,
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`11· ·correct?
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`12· · · · · A.· ·That would be fair to say, yep, a
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`13· ·major component of what we do is understanding
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`14· ·the composition of the materials that we're
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`15· ·working with.
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`16· · · · · Q.· ·And when you need to understand the
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`17· ·compositions of the materials that you're
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`18· ·working with for the biochemical analysis of
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`19· ·those materials, do you contract with another
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`20· ·group at Callaghan Innovation to do that
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`21· ·analysis?
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`22· · · · · A.· ·It depends entirely on the
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`23· ·analysis.
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`24· · · · · Q.· ·And so what type of analysis do you
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`25· ·do within your group?
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0011
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`·1· · · · · A.· ·Within the biotechnologies group,
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`·2· ·we do have quite a strong experience in
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`·3· ·certainly lipid analysis, but also analysis of
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`·4· ·some of the other components.· Some analysis,
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`·5· ·for example, if we are looking at sort of ash
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`·6· ·or, you know, some mineral content of materials
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`·7· ·in some protein analysis, we have some good
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`·8· ·university laboratories that we send samples
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`·9· ·to.
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`10· · · · · · · · ·Within my process engineering
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`11· ·team, we do a range of the analysis we -- the
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`12· ·people that report to me do it, includes some
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`13· ·analysis of, you know, for example, water
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`14· ·content.
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`15· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Does anybody in your process
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`16· ·engineering group do gas chromatography?
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`17· · · · · A.· ·The GCs that we have within the --
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`18· ·just to be clear too, when you talk about
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`19· ·group, the biotechnology group is the wider
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`20· ·group that I'm part of.· If you are referring
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`21· ·specifically to the members of that group who
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`22· ·report to me as a manager, then perhaps you
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`23· ·could refer to that as, you know, the process
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`24· ·engineering team, if that's specifically who
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`25· ·you are referring to.
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0012
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`·1· · · · · Q.· ·Yes.· So with the process
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`·2· ·engineering team, do any members of that team
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`·3· ·do gas chromatography analysis?
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`·4· · · · · A.· ·One of my team members has done
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`·5· ·some sample preparation in his use of GC, but
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`·6· ·primarily the GCs are done in an adjacent
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`·7· ·building and let's say the technicians who
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`·8· ·primarily run that GC report to one of my
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`·9· ·colleagues.
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`10· · · · · Q.· ·And what colleague is that?
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`11· · · · · A.· ·Currently, that is a gentleman by
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`12· ·the name of Andrew Lewis.
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`13· · · · · Q.· ·And do any members of the process
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`14· ·engineering team do NMR analysis?
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`15· · · · · A.· ·No.· The NMR and in fact, the
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`16· ·gentleman I just mentioned, Andrew Lewis, is
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`17· ·one of the key operators of our NMR facility.
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`18· ·Also some other members of his team.
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`19· · · · · Q.· ·Do any members of the process
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`20· ·engineering team do thin layer chromatography
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`21· ·analysis?
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`22· · · · · A.· ·Not my team members.· We get our
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`23· ·colleagues to do that.
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`24· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Have you ever done a GC, a
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`25· ·gas chromatography analysis yourself?
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0013
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`·1· · · · · A.· ·I haven't personally put a sample
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`·2· ·into a GC machine.
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`·3· · · · · Q.· ·Well, have you ever done a thin
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`·4· ·layer chromatography analysis yourself?
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`·5· · · · · A.· ·Not completely by myself.· I have
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`·6· ·as a demonstration or an exercise, so I have
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`·7· ·been party to a TLC sort of loading up from
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`·8· ·development.
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`·9· · · · · Q.· ·But that's not something you do on
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`10· ·a routine basis?
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`11· · · · · A.· ·No, no, it's not my job to put
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`12· ·stuff onto plates.
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`13· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.
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`14· · · · · A.· ·It's my job to interpret them and
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`15· ·make use of the information.
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`16· · · · · Q.· ·So as part of your work at
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`17· ·Callaghan Innovation, you develop processes for
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`18· ·extraction of natural materials, correct?
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`19· · · · · A.· ·Among other things, correct.
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`20· · · · · Q.· ·And as part of those duties, are
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`21· ·you involved in actually collecting the raw
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`22· ·materials?
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`23· · · · · A.· ·There have been times in the past,
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`24· ·yes, where I've personally collected materials.
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`25· · · · · Q.· ·And what materials would those be?
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0014
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`·1· · · · · A.· ·I guess the details, you know, the
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`·2· ·specifics of the details are confidential to
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`·3· ·the particular work that we were doing, but as
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`·4· ·a, I guess as an example, we've done some
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`·5· ·recent work looking at, if you like, the sort
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`·6· ·of waste streams coming out of a meat industry
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`·7· ·process and some places, I've been the person
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`·8· ·who actually drives down to pick up a sample of
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`·9· ·the material that we're working with to do some
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`10· ·further processing on.
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`11· · · · · Q.· ·You went and picked it up, but you
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`12· ·weren't involved in actually producing the
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`13· ·sample then?
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · MR. JONES:· Object to form.
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Not in that
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`16· · · · · ·particular case.· That was a material
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`17· · · · · ·generated by an existing industry
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`18· · · · · ·player and we were looking to work with
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`19· · · · · ·an established and representative
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`20· · · · · ·product, if that answers your question.
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`21· ·BY MR. JONES:
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`22· · · · · Q.· ·Have you ever been on a ship that
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`23· ·harvests marine materials?
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`24· · · · · A.· ·I have, yes.· It's an interest of
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`25· ·mine to go fishing.
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0015
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`·1· · · · · Q.· ·So you say you have been fishing,
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`·2· ·have you ever been on -- and did you perform
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`·3· ·any extraction processes on the fish that you
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`·4· ·caught?
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`·5· · · · · A.· ·Indeed, I generally do.
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`·6· · · · · Q.· ·And what would those be?
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`·7· · · · · A.· ·Mainly gut removal and descaling
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`·8· ·and finishing.
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`·9· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Have you ever developed a
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`10· ·process as the team leader of the process
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`11· ·engineering team at Callaghan Innovation for
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`12· ·extracting a natural material from a fish that
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`13· ·you've caught?
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`14· · · · · A.· ·From the fish that I've personally
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`15· ·caught, no.
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`16· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Have you ever been on a
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`17· ·commercial fishing vessel that harvests marine
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`18· ·materials for commercial use?
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`19· · · · · A.· ·Just trying to think.· I have been
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`20· ·on -- I have been on larger commercial fishing
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`21· ·boats, but they -- still just for
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`22· ·recreational -- well, commercial, but
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`23· ·recreational fishing.
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`24· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.
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`25· · · · · A.· ·Yeah, that's all I have to say.
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0016
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`·1· · · · · Q.· ·And have you ever been on a krill
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`·2· ·harvesting vessel?
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`·3· · · · · A.· ·I've seen, I've seen pictures and
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`·4· ·videos from on board the ships, but I've never
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`·5· ·personally been on one.
`
`·6· · · · · Q.· ·And as part of your work at
`
`·7· ·Callaghan Innovation, in the process
`
`·8· ·engineering team, do you develop what could be
`
`·9· ·termed extraction plants for clients?
`
`10· · · · · A.· ·We do some elements of that.· We
`
`11· ·provide, I guess, at the early stages, we do
`
`12· ·some work with specification of equipment and
`
`13· ·design recommendations and cost estimation.
`
`14· ·And then at later stages, we do also -- we do
`
`15· ·some work where we build equipment or processes
`
`16· ·in-house and then migrate those to the client's
`
`17· ·facilities to make use of.· In other cases, we
`
`18· ·just provide designs and specifications for,
`
`19· ·you know, for putting together off-the-shelf
`
`20· ·components to put a process together.
`
`21· · · · · Q.· ·And have you ever designed an
`
`22· ·extraction plant for use on a ship?
`
`23· · · · · A.· ·One that comes to mind was a piece
`
`24· ·of work we did for a shipping company just
`
`25· ·looking at some improvements to their
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0017
`
`
`
`·1· ·refrigeration and chilling system for storing
`
`·2· ·the fish when it came on board.· So we had some
`
`·3· ·input into the design of that process.· Other
`
`·4· ·things, I'm not sure exactly how they're used,
`
`·5· ·but in principle, probably quite a number of
`
`·6· ·the things we design conceptually could be used
`
`·7· ·on a ship.
`
`·8· · · · · Q.· ·And have you ever designed a plant
`
`·9· ·for making krill meal for a ship?
`
`10· · · · · A.· ·No.· The answer is no, I haven't
`
`11· ·designed a krill meal process to operate on a
`
`12· ·ship.· There are plenty of other people who can
`
`13· ·and have done that.· It's a fairly
`
`14· ·well-established process.
`
`15· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So I would like to direct
`
`16· ·your attention to your declaration,
`
`17· ·Exhibit 1006, for the IPR2020-01532 for the
`
`18· ·'169 patent.
`
`19· · · · · A.· ·Okay.
`
`20· · · · · Q.· ·And do you have that there on your
`
`21· ·screen there then?
`
`22· · · · · A.· ·Yup, I have that ready to go.
`
`23· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Great.· So at pages 0004 to
`
`24· ·006, those are part of the table of contents.
`
`25· ·Do you see that?
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0018
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · A.· ·I see that.
`
`·2· · · · · Q.· ·And there's a listed there it says
`
`·3· ·prior art and I think refers to page 91, do you
`
`·4· ·see that?
`
`·5· · · · · A.· ·I do.
`
`·6· · · · · Q.· ·And then over the next couple of
`
`·7· ·pages, there's a pretty long list of
`
`·8· ·references.· My first question is a general
`
`·9· ·question.· In preparing the opinion for --
`
`10· ·sorry, strike that.· In preparing your
`
`11· ·declaration for the '169 patent, did you rely
`
`12· ·on any references that aren't listed or
`
`13· ·discussed in Exhibit 1006?
`
`14· · · · · A.· ·No, the opinion that is my
`
`15· ·declaration relies only on the ones that are
`
`16· ·listed, but that is consistent with my general
`
`17· ·experience and understanding of, you know,
`
`18· ·other literature as well.
`
`19· · · · · Q.· ·And were the references cited in
`
`20· ·your report provided to you by Rimfrost's
`
`21· ·counsel?
`
`22· · · · · A.· ·Well, I guess as you're aware,
`
`23· ·there have been a number of similar IPRs that I
`
`24· ·have been involved with and the list of
`
`25· ·references used has grown over time.· But what
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0019
`
`
`
`·1· ·do you mean by provided to me?· What's your
`
`·2· ·actual question?
`
`·3· · · · · Q.· ·Any of the references listed in the
`
`·4· ·table of contents, did you do searches that
`
`·5· ·identified those references?· And I'm
`
`·6· ·specifically referring to the table of contents
`
`·7· ·of Exhibit 1006 in the 01532 IPR.
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · MR. CHAKANSKY:· Form
`
`·9· · · · · ·objection.
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· In terms of
`
`11· · · · · ·how the list of references developed,
`
`12· · · · · ·it will be a combination of things. I
`
`13· · · · · ·have done my item section and I have
`
`14· · · · · ·made use of references in search lists
`
`15· · · · · ·in documents provided by Rimfrost.· But
`
`16· · · · · ·at this stage, it would be hard for me
`
`17· · · · · ·say specifically which of any of those
`
`18· · · · · ·I've identified myself or which were
`
`19· · · · · ·provided to me.
`
`20· ·BY MR. JONES:
`
`21· · · · · Q.· ·And you mentioned that the
`
`22· ·references they are utilized in Exhibit 1006
`
`23· ·are consistent with other references in the
`
`24· ·literature; is that correct?
`
`25· · · · · · · · · · · MR. CHAKANSKY:· Objection.
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0020
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · ·Lack of foundation.
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· No, that's not
`
`·3· · · · · ·what I said.
`
`·4· ·BY MR. JONES:
`
`·5· · · · · Q.· ·So you mentioned that there are
`
`·6· ·other references that aren't included in your
`
`·7· ·report?
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · MR. CHAKANSKY:· Objection.
`
`·9· · · · · ·Misstates his testimony.
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· No, what I
`
`11· · · · · ·said before was that the opinion in my
`
`12· · · · · ·declaration doesn't rely on anything
`
`13· · · · · ·outside of the listed references, but
`
`14· · · · · ·just that my opinion is consistent with
`
`15· · · · · ·my general understanding in addition to
`
`16· · · · · ·the material that's in the declaration.
`
`17· ·BY MR. JONES:
`
`18· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Are there any other
`
`19· ·references that should have been included in
`
`20· ·your declaration?
`
`21· · · · · A.· ·No.
`
`22· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, other than references
`
`23· ·cited in Exhibit 1006 for the 1532 IPR, are you
`
`24· ·aware of any references on krill meal
`
`25· ·production?
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0021
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · A.· ·I would have to have a look back
`
`·2· ·through the ones that were actually included to
`
`·3· ·remind myself.· Would you like me to do that?
`
`·4· · · · · Q.· ·Yeah, you can certainly refer to
`
`·5· ·the references that are listed in the table of
`
`·6· ·contents or any other place you need to in the
`
`·7· ·declaration.
`
`·8· · · · · A.· ·Can you remind what your question
`
`·9· ·was?
`
`10· · · · · Q.· ·Yeah.· So all of the references
`
`11· ·cited in your declaration in Exhibit 1006 for
`
`12· ·the 1532 IPR, are you aware of any other
`
`13· ·references on krill meal production that were
`
`14· ·not listed in your declaration?
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · · MR. CHAKANSKY:· And you're
`
`16· · · · · ·referring to Appendix E, which is the
`
`17· · · · · ·list already referred to.
`
`18· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes, it's a
`
`19· · · · · ·difficult question to answer with any
`
`20· · · · · ·specifics, but in general, I'm aware
`
`21· · · · · ·of, gosh, you know, just about every
`
`22· · · · · ·article that you read about krill
`
`23· · · · · ·probably makes at least a reference to
`
`24· · · · · ·krill meal.· It's a fairly common, you
`
`25· · · · · ·know, component of a lot of processing
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0022
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · ·steps or certainly a common component
`
`·2· · · · · ·in the preparation of handling of
`
`·3· · · · · ·krill, so in general, I would say
`
`·4· · · · · ·there's a, you know, a substantial body
`
`·5· · · · · ·of other references out there,
`
`·6· · · · · ·including, I mean a number of the -- or
`
`·7· · · · · ·many of the publications listed in the
`
`·8· · · · · ·prior art, the said authors of those
`
`·9· · · · · ·publications have written in some
`
`10· · · · · ·cases, dozens of other publications.
`
`11· · · · · ·And so the list of prior art there is
`
`12· · · · · ·by no means an exhaustive list of
`
`13· · · · · ·everything that's written on krill and
`
`14· · · · · ·krill meal.
`
`15· ·BY MR. JONES:
`
`16· · · · · Q.· ·And can you recall any of those
`
`17· ·specific references on krill meal production
`
`18· ·that are not listed in your declaration?
`
`19· · · · · A.· ·No specific ones come mind.
`
`20· · · · · Q.· ·And what are those or you said no
`
`21· ·specific ones?
`
`22· · · · · A.· ·I'm sorry, I said no specific ones
`
`23· ·come to mind right at the moment.
`
`24· · · · · Q.· ·And other than the references cited
`
`25· ·in your declaration, are you aware of any other
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0023
`
`
`
`·1· ·references that address the storage of krill
`
`·2· ·meal?
`
`·3· · · · · A.· ·Again, I think the answer is
`
`·4· ·probably similar.· It's my impression that a
`
`·5· ·lot of publications probably will make
`
`·6· ·reference to storage at least, at least
`
`·7· ·implicitly, you know, any publication that
`
`·8· ·talks about catching krill and/or further
`
`·9· ·processing it, ultimately, it's going to take a
`
`10· ·period of time just to get the entire harvest
`
`11· ·done and it's going to take a certain amount of
`
`12· ·time to get the material back to shore, if
`
`13· ·further processing is being done onshore, so
`
`14· ·implicit in a lot of references is a storage or
`
`15· ·hold period of time.
`
`16· · · · · · · · ·But, again, the list of prior art
`
`17· ·we've used is -- well, it's what I've used to
`
`18· ·base my opinion on and nothing specific comes
`
`19· ·to mind to add to it at this stage.
`
`20· · · · · Q.· ·And other than the references cited
`
`21· ·in your declaration to Exhibit 1006 and in the
`
`22· ·1532 IPR, are you aware of any other references
`
`23· ·that address issues related to shipping of
`
`24· ·krill meal?
`
`25· · · · · A.· ·What do you mean by shipping?
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0024
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · Q.· ·Transporting krill meal.
`
`·2· · · · · A.· ·Do you mean after harvesting it or
`
`·3· ·just putting it on a boat and transporting it
`
`·4· ·from one place to another?
`
`·5· · · · · Q.· ·Transporting it after harvest and
`
`·6· ·production.
`
`·7· · · · · A.· ·Again, nothing specific comes to
`
`·8· ·mind, but it would be my impression that
`
`·9· ·there's a -- there is an additional wide body
`
`10· ·of material out there.
`
`11· · · · · Q.· ·And is it fair to say you can't
`
`12· ·recall if you consulted any of that wide body
`
`13· ·of material in relation to this, to your
`
`14· ·declaration, Exhibit 1006?
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · · MR. CHAKANSKY:· Objection to
`
`16· · · · · ·form.
`
`17· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The answer to
`
`18· · · · · ·that would be no, you know, these in
`
`19· · · · · ·similar proceedings have been running
`
`20· · · · · ·for a number of years and over that
`
`21· · · · · ·time, I have read a number of
`
`22· · · · · ·publications that are outside the prior
`
`23· · · · · ·art list.· But no specific ones come to
`
`24· · · · · ·mind that I feel are appropriate to
`
`25· · · · · ·mention.
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0025
`
`
`
`·1· ·BY MR. JONES:
`
`·2· · · · · Q.· ·And then other the references cited
`
`·3· ·in your report or in your declaration
`
`·4· ·Exhibit 1006, in the 1532 IPR, are you aware of
`
`·5· ·any other references that address issues
`
`·6· ·related to the stability of krill meal?
`
`·7· · · · · A.· ·Are you referring to anything
`
`·8· ·specific when you say stability or just in
`
`·9· ·general?
`
`10· · · · · Q.· ·Just stability in the general
`
`11· ·sense.
`
`12· · · · · A.· ·So a similar answer, again, there's
`
`13· ·a wide body of literature out there on krill.
`
`14· ·Certainly the, you know, around stability of
`
`15· ·the krill, the stability issues that needed to
`
`16· ·be addressed were certainly well known right
`
`17· ·back from the, you know, sort of 1960s and '70s
`
`18· ·when they did a lot of krill harvesting, and
`
`19· ·it's my impression that there's a lot of
`
`20· ·literature out there.· But again, the list of
`
`21· ·prior art that is in the declaration is --
`
`22· ·well, it's sufficient for me to state my
`
`23· ·opinion on.
`
`24· · · · · Q.· ·So if you're referring to a product
`
`25· ·as being stable, what's your understanding of
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0026
`
`
`
`·1· ·what stability means with respect to -- strike
`
`·2· ·that.
`
`·3· · · · · · · · ·So if the word "stable" is used
`
`·4· ·to describe a krill meal, what would that mean
`
`·5· ·to you?
`
`·6· · · · · A.· ·It would depend entirely on the
`
`·7· ·context and what the krill meal was being used
`
`·8· ·for, for example.
`
`·9· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So other than the references
`
`10· ·cited in Exhibit 1006 for the 1532 declaration,
`
`11· ·are you aware of any other references that
`
`12· ·discuss the stability of denatured krill
`
`13· ·products?
`
`14· · · · · A.· ·Again, I think the same as my
`
`15· ·previous answers, I have a general expectation
`
`16· ·that there is other literature out there, but
`
`17· ·nothing that particularly comes to mind right
`
`18· ·at the moment.
`
`19· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· I would like to direct your
`
`20· ·attention to Exhibit 1006 from IPR2020-01533
`
`21· ·for the '046 patent.
`
`22· · · · · A.· ·Okay.
`
`23· · · · · · · · · · · MR. CHAKANSKY:· His
`
`24· · · · · ·declaration for the '046 patent?
`
`25· · · · · · · · · · · MR. JONES:· Yes.
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0027
`
`
`
`·1· ·BY MR. JONES:
`
`·2· · · · · Q.· ·And I believe that has a pretty
`
`·3· ·similar list of references through the
`
`·4· ·declaration for the 1532 IPR and the '169
`
`·5· ·patent, but again, on -- so with respect to the
`
`·6· ·references cited in Exhibit 1006 for the 1533
`
`·7· ·IPR, are you aware of any other references on
`
`·8· ·krill meal production that you didn't cite in
`
`·9· ·the declaration?
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · · MR. CHAKANSKY:· Objection,
`
`11· · · · · ·foundation.
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· So you're
`
`13· · · · · ·asking if I'm aware of other
`
`14· · · · · ·publications that weren't listed in
`
`15· · · · · ·the -- in my declaration, yes, there
`
`16· · · · · ·are a lot of other publications that
`
`17· · · · · ·weren't listed.
`
`18· ·BY MR. JONES:
`
`19· · · · · Q.· ·And so can you tell me the specific
`
`20· ·publications that you're aware of that weren't
`
`21· ·listed in your declaration?
`
`22· · · · · A.· ·I don't know.· There are probably
`
`23· ·billions of publications that exist.· The
`
`24· ·declaration only has a few dozen.
`
`25· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So I would like to direct
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0028
`
`
`
`·1· ·your attention to Appendix E of Exhibit 1006
`
`·2· ·for the 1533 IPR.· I believe it is at page 315
`
`·3· ·of Exhibit 1006.
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · MR. CHAKANSKY:· Is this the
`
`·5· · · · · ·'046 patent, right?
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · MR. JONES:· We're on the
`
`·7· · · · · ·'046 patent, yes.
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Can you remind
`
`·9· · · · · ·me what page number?
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · · MR. CHAKANSKY:· 315.
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · · MR. JONES:· It's 0315.
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.
`
`13· ·BY MR. JONES:
`
`14· · · · · Q.· ·Is that a list of the materials you
`
`15· ·considered for your declaration?
`
`16· · · · · A.· ·Yes.· Well, it's a list of the ones
`
`17· ·that were included in the declaration.
`
`18· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Other than the references
`
`19· ·cited in Appendix E of Exhibit 1006, are you
`
`20· ·aware of any other references that address
`
`21· ·krill meal production?
`
`22· · · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · · · Q.· ·And any specific ones come to mind?
`
`24· · · · · A.· ·No.
`
`25· · · · · Q.· ·And other than the references cited
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0029
`
`
`
`·1· ·in Appendix E of Exhibit 1006 for the 1533 IPR,
`
`·2· ·are you aware of any other references that
`
`·3· ·address issues related to storage of krill
`
`·4· ·meal?
`
`·5· · · · · A.· ·I think that question is probably a
`
`·6· ·subset of the previous one, so the answer is
`
`·7· ·the same.
`
`·8· · · · · Q.· ·And do any specific references come
`
`·9· ·to mind?
`
`10· · · · · A.· ·No, nothing specific.
`
`11· · · · · Q.· ·And other than the references cited
`
`12· ·in Appendix E of Exhibit 1006 for the 1533 IPR,
`
`13· ·are you aware of any references that address
`
`14· ·issues related to transport of krill meal?
`
`15· · · · · A.· ·Yes, but nothing specific that I
`
`16· ·will mention.
`
`17· · · · · Q.· ·Other than the references cited in
`
`18· ·Appendix E of Exhibit 1006 for the 1533 IPR,
`
`19· ·are you aware of any other references that
`
`20· ·address issues related to krill meal stability?
`
`21· · · · · A.· ·Yes, but nothing specific to
`
`22· ·mention.
`
`23· · · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Let me know if you need to
`
`24· ·take a break at all as we go through this.
`
`25· · · · · · · · · · · MR. CHAKANSKY:· Well, Mitch,
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2019 PAGE 0030
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · ·are you going to be asking the same
`
`·2· · · · · ·questions about the other declaration?
`
`·3· · · · · ·You may as well just get through it.
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · MR. JONES:· No, not about
`
`·5· · · · · ·that one.
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · MR. CHAKANSKY:· Not about
`
`·7· · · · · ·that one.
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'll tell you,
`
`·9· · · · · ·if there's a break in what you're
`
`10· · · · · ·discussing, maybe you could take five
`
`11· · · · · ·minutes or just a couple --
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · MR. JONES:· Yes.· Is it okay
`
`13· · · · · ·if we break?· Is the court reporter,
`
`14· · · · · ·you okay if we break for five minutes
`
`15· · · · · ·here?
`
`16· · · · · · · · · · · THE STENOGRAPHER:· Yes.
`
`17· · · · · · · · · · · - - - - -
`
`18· ·
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