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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` IPR 2020-01449
`
` Patent No. 7,149,867
`
` - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`
` INTEL CORPORATION,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
` FG SRC LLC,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`
` VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`
` RAJESH K. GUPTA, PH.D.
`
` Tuesday, June 22, 2021
`
`Reported by:
`
`SUSAN ASHE, CSR, RMR, CRR
`
`Job No.: 4669254
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`Intel Exhibit 1039 - 1
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` IPR 2020-01449
`
` Patent No. 7,149,867
`
` - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`
` INTEL CORPORATION,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
` FG SRC LLC,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`
` VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`
` RAJESH K. GUPTA, PH.D.
`
` Tuesday, June 22, 2021
`
`Reported by:
`
`SUSAN ASHE, CSR, RMR, CRR
`
`Job No.: 4669254
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`Intel Exhibit 1039 - 1
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`
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`Page 2
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` Videoconference deposition of RAJESH K.
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`GUPTA, PH.D., taken remotely on behalf of the
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`Patent Owner, beginning at 11:06 a.m., on Tuesday,
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`June 22, 2021, via Zoom, before Susan Ashe, CSR,
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`RMR, CRR.
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`APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:
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` On behalf of the Petitioner and the Witness:
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` PILLSBURY WINTHROP SHAW PITTMAN LLP
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`Page 3
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` BY: MATTHEW HINDMAN, ESQ.
`
` 2550 Hanover Street
`
` Palo Alto, California 94304
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` (650) 233-4500
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` matthew.hindman@pillsburylaw.com
`
` - and -
`
` BY: BRIAN NASH, ESQ.
`
` FROST BANK TOWER
`
` 401 Congress Avenue, Suite 1700
`
` Austin, Texas 78701
`
` (512) 580-9600
`
` brian.nash@pillsburylaw.com
`
` (Via Videoconference)
`
` On behalf of the Patent Owner:
`
` DiMURO GINSBERG P.C.
`
` BY: HENNING SCHMIDT, ESQ.
`
` 1101 King Street, Suite 610
`
` Alexandria, Virginia 22314
`
` (703) 684-4333
`
` hschmidt@dimuro.com
`
` (Via Videoconference)
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`Intel Exhibit 1039 - 3
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`
`
` CONTENTS
`
`THE WITNESS
`
`Rajesh K. Gupta, Ph.D.
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`Page 4
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` BY MR. SCHMIDT 6
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` EXHIBITS
`
`INTEL
`
`Exhibit No. Marked
`
`Exhibit 1003 Zhang Architectural
`
` Document 41
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`Exhibit 1004 Gupta Architectural
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` Document 41
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`Exhibit 1005 Chien MORPH Document 41
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`Exhibit 1010 Declaration of
`
` Rajesh K. Gupta, Ph.D. 8
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`Exhibit 1030 Supplemental Declaration of
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` Rajesh K. Gupta, Ph.D. 35
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`Page 5
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` TUESDAY, JUNE 22, 2021;
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` 11:06 A.M.
`
` --o0o--
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` COURT REPORTER: The attorneys
`
` participating in this deposition acknowledge
`
` that I am not physically present in the
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` deposition room, and that I will be
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` reporting this deposition remotely.
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` They further acknowledge that, in lieu
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` of an oath administered in person, I will
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` administer the oath remotely.
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` The parties further agree that if the
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` witness is testifying from a state where I
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` am not a Notary, that the witness may be
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` sworn in by an out-of-state notary.
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` If any party has an objection to this
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` manner of reporting, please state it now.
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` (No response.)
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` COURT REPORTER: Hearing no objection,
`
` we may proceed.
`
`Whereupon,
`
` RAJESH K. GUPTA, PH.D.
`
` having been first duly sworn, was examined
`
` and testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`BY MR. SCHMIDT:
`
` Q Good morning, Dr. Gupta. Thanks a lot
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`Page 6
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`for your time today.
`
` A Thank you.
`
` Q I guess first let me ask, what is your
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`proper title, "Dr." or "Professor" Gupta? Or...?
`
` A Both.
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` Q How would you prefer to be addressed?
`
` A Either is fine.
`
` Q Okay. I'll stick with "Dr." That
`
`comes more natural to me.
`
` A Sure.
`
` Q Yeah, thanks for getting started so
`
`early. I realize you're on the West Coast. So I
`
`know it's quite early for you.
`
` Have you been deposed before?
`
` A No.
`
` Q This is your first deposition, then?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. Let me go over the process a
`
`little bit, just so you know what to expect.
`
` You're sworn under oath to tell the
`
`truth to best of your recollection.
`
` Do you understand that?
`
` A Yes.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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` Q Okay. The transcript for this
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`deposition is being recorded and may be available
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`to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office and may be
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`publicly available, as well, after the deposition.
`
` Do you understand?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Is there any reason why you may not be
`
`able to testify accurately today?
`
` A No.
`
` Q So the court reporter is recording our
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`conversation and making a transcript.
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` In order for that transcript to be
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`meaningful and, well, accurate, it is important
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`that we speak one at a time; and I'm sure the
`
`court reporter will let us know if she has trouble
`
`understanding us.
`
` Do you understand?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. And finally, it's important to
`
`give verbal answers, because it is not easy to
`
`record nonverbal responses. Okay?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q All right. Do you have the
`
`exhibits -- specifically, your two declarations in
`
`this case -- accessible to you right now?
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`Intel Exhibit 1039 - 7
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` A Yes.
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` MR. HINDMAN: Great.
`
` Brian, do you know if this is the --
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` do you want to verify if this is the actual
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` stamped copy, or do you already know?
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` (No response.)
`
` (Whereupon, Intel Exhibit 1010,
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` previously marked, was presented to the
`
` witness.)
`
`BY MR. HINDMAN:
`
` Q I guess, let's ask: So Dr. Gupta, do
`
`you have access to Exhibit 1010?
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` A Yes, I do.
`
` Q Now, on the front page at the bottom
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`right, do you see a stamp that says "Intel
`
`Exhibit 1010-1"?
`
` A That's correct.
`
` Q Great. And this is your declaration
`
`submitted in this matter. Right?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Do you also have Exhibit -- Intel
`
`Exhibit 1003?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. Finally, do you have Exhibits
`
`1003, 1004, and 1005, which are the three articles
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`that are the subject of your declaration?
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` A Yes; -3, -4, -5.
`
` Q Great. Okay. So I understand -- so
`
`let's take a look at Exhibit 1010 first.
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q I understand you -- from 1994 until
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`'96, you were assistant professor of computer
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`science at the University of Illinois,
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`Urbana-Champaign?
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` A That's correct.
`
` Q Okay. And you're working closely with
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`Dr. Chien. Right?
`
` A That's correct.
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` Q Am I pronouncing that name correctly?
`
` A No; "Chien."
`
` Q "Chien," okay.
`
` Okay. So you and Dr. Chien coauthored
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`an article entitled "MORPH: A System Architecture
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`for Robust Higher Performance Using
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`Customization."
`
` Is that right?
`
` A There were several articles. Exact
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`title is in the -- 1005. So, 1005....
`
` Q Page 7.
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` A I think the title -- maybe I misheard
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`it -- "MORPH: A System Architecture for Robust
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`Higher Performance Using Customization."
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` Q Okay. And that is the article you are
`
`describing in paragraph 18 of Exhibit 1010.
`
` Is that right?
`
` A I don't know the paragraph number. If
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`you could give me the item number, I can verify.
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` Q The page number is Intel
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`Exhibit 1010-5. At the very top of the page is
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`paragraph 18.
`
` A That's correct.
`
` Q I'm sorry, I could not hear that.
`
` A That is correct.
`
` Q Okay. So this article was submitted
`
`by you and Dr. Chien to the Frontiers '96 IEEE
`
`Conference.
`
` Is that correct?
`
` A That's correct.
`
` Q Okay. In the very bottom of this
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`paragraph, do you see the sentence that ends in:
`
` ...I believe this paper was
`
` distributed to the conference
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` attendees prior or during the
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` conference.
`
` A Um-hum, yes.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
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` Q Okay. So is this just a belief, or
`
`are you sure at this point that it was distributed
`
`to conference attendees?
`
` MR. HINDMAN: Objection; form.
`
` Q You can answer the question.
`
` A At this point, uncertain.
`
` Q Okay. Why did you write "I believe"
`
`originally in this declaration?
`
` A Because it was a recollection at that
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`time.
`
` Q Okay. And since then, you have become
`
`certain?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q How did that change happen?
`
` MR. HINDMAN: Objection; form.
`
` A I found the proceedings in my office
`
`and that brought forth a recollection, and that I
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`picked it up at the --
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` (Court reporter request for clarity.)
`
` A The proceedings at the conference.
`
` (Court reporter request for clarity.)
`
` A The conference proceedings were
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`distributed at the conference.
`
` Now....
`
` Q So are you referring to the book that
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`you took pictures of and submitted in your second
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`declaration?
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` A That's correct.
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` Q Okay. So you found the publication of
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`that conference, the Frontiers '96 Conference, in
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`your own personal files.
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` Is that correct?
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` A Yes. Some in my remaining proceedings
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`in my office.
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` Q Okay. And based on finding that,
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`you -- that's the reason why you were able -- you
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`are now certain that this paper was distributed at
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`the --
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` A No.
`
` Q I'm sorry?
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` A No; that's not the only reason.
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` Q Oh. What other reasons?
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` A This is a refereed conference.
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` Refereed publications have very
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`well-defined rules as to how the papers are
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`submitted, when they are submitted, how they're
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`evaluated, and how they're selected -- and when
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`they're selected, how the authors are notified --
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`and how those publications are put into
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`proceedings; and those proceedings are then
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`distributed to the attendees.
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` This is a standard "matter" by which
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`IEEE operates.
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` Q Okay. How many IEEE conferences have
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`you attended?
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` A I've been in academia as a professor
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`27 years and, before that, as a student.
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` In 30 years, I would say maybe a few
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`hundred.
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` Q Okay. Do you have an idea of how many
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`submissions you have made to these IEEE
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`conferences?
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` A Probably in few hundreds.
`
` Q Wow, that's impressive. It sounds
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`like you've submitted even more than one per
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`conference sometimes.
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` Is that right?
`
` A Absolutely.
`
` Q Very neat, very prolific.
`
` Okay. So let's take a look at
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`paragraph 19 on that same page.
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` Do you see that?
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` A Yes.
`
` Q In paragraph 19, you state in the last
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`part of the last sentence that you understand it
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`Intel Exhibit 1039 - 13
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`has been available from the IEEE Xplore website
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`since at least as early as August 6, 2002.
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` Do you see that?
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` A Yes.
`
` Q Are you familiar with IEEE Xplore
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`itself?
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` A Yes.
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` Q What is it?
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` A It's an electronic library that IEEE
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`provides to subscribers and nonmember subscribers.
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` Q Are you familiar with the search
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`capabilities of that website?
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` A Yes.
`
` Q Are you familiar with how -- were
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`those search capabilities the same in....
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` When is the first time you've used
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`IEEE Xplore, around about?
`
` A I can't tell you for certain when I
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`first used it.
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` Q Do you have an idea of when IEEE
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`Xplore first became available?
`
` A That I could tell you.
`
` Q I'm sorry. Is that a yes or a no?
`
` A Yes.
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` Q Okay. Okay -- when?
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` A In 2000 I served as a member of the
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`board of governors of IEEE Circuit & Systems
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`Society. I was also the associated (inaudible)
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`test that year.
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` (Court reporter request for clarity.)
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` Q Dr. Gupta, maybe you could slow down a
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`little bit. I think maybe my accent and your
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`accent can make it more difficult for the court
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`reporter to record both of us.
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` A Would you please repeat the question.
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` Q Sure, absolutely. My question is:
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`When do you recall first using IEEE Xplore?
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` A I cannot answer that question with
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`certainty.
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` Q Do you --
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` MR. NASH: Henning, if it helps, since
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` I have the realtime, your question, I think,
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` was: Do you have an idea of when IEEE
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` Xplore first became available?
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` THE WITNESS: That I can answer.
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` Q Okay. Let's answer that question,
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`then.
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` MR. HINDMAN: Thanks, Brian.
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` A IEEE Xplore as a product was discussed
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`in IEEE board of governor meetings at the time
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`when --
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` (Court reporter request for clarity.)
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` A Board of governors, IEEE board of --
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`IEEE Circuit & Systems Society board of governors.
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` MR. NASH: "Board of governors."
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` MR. HINDMAN: "IEEE Circuit Society."
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` THE WITNESS: "Circuits & Systems
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` Society."
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` MR. NASH: "Circuits & Systems
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` Society."
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` A In 2000.
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` So --
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` Q Go ahead.
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` A So I was aware of the product being
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`made and made available. Exactly when it was
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`available to the public, I cannot tell you for
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`certain today.
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` Q Okay. Are you familiar with -- I
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`mean, okay, let me restart that.
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` Has the IEEE Xplore database been
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`updated since that first release?
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` A I don't understand the question.
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` Q Okay. I expect that first version
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`that was released that you referred to just now
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`might have been Version 1.0 or something like
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`that.
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` MR. HINDMAN: Objection; form.
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` Q Do you believe that that is still the
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`version that is in circulation now -- or that is
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`being used now?
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` A I think you have to be more specific.
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` Are you talking about the software?
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`Are you talking about the database? Are you
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`talking about the software that accesses the
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`database? Are you talking about the user
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`interface that accesses the software of the
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`database?
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` Q I'm specifically talking about the
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`search capability of the user interface that
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`accesses the database.
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` A I have no business of knowing when it
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`was updated.
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` Q Are you familiar with the search
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`capability of the user interface for accessing the
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`database right now?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Do you have any personal knowledge
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`whether that interface was the same in 2002, for
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`example?
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` MR. HINDMAN: Objection; form.
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` A Can you repeat the question again?
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` Q Yes. Do you have any personal
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`knowledge as to whether that interface for
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`searching the database had the same capabilities
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`in 2002 that it does now?
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` A The interface today is the same
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`capabilities as the one before.
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` Q You are certain? How do you know
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`that?
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` A No. I'm just repeating the question.
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` Q Oh.
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` A Is that the question?
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` Q Yes. My question is whether -- you
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`said today you're familiar with the search
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`capabilities of the interface for the IEEE Xplore
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`database. Yes?
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` A I'm having a hard time understanding
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`what you mean by "capability."
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` Q Okay. You're capable today of
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`searching the IEEE Xplore database. Right?
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` A That's my capability.
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` Q Yes. So you are familiar with the
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`user interface used to search that database?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Do you know if that interface was the
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`same in 2002?
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` A I have no -- I can't answer that
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`question.
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` Q Does that mean you don't know? Or....
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` A I don't know.
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` Q Okay. So in paragraph 19 again, your
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`statement says:
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` I understand that it has been
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` available from the IEEE Xplore
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` website...since at least as early as
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` August 6, 2002.
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` Do you see that?
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` A Paragraph 19, last sentence, yes.
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` Q Okay. This publication you submitted
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`with Dr. Chien in 1996, right, to the IEEE
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`conference?
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` A That's correct.
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` Q Can you explain the six-year delay
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`here?
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` A The publication receives IEEE Xplore
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`launch.
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` Q Do you know why there would have been
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`a six-year delay for a publication by the IEEE?
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` A IEEE Xplore, an online library, did
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`not exist at that time -- IEEE.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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` Q Do you know --
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` (Court reporter request for clarity.)
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` A IEEE Xplore did not exist at the time
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`the conference held, was held.
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` Q So do you know when -- so what is your
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`understanding in that last sentence of
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`paragraph 19 based, where you say: I understand
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`it has been available since August 6, 2002?
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` MR. HINDMAN: Objection; form.
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` A I'm going to repeat the question,
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`because I'm not sure I understood it.
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` What is my understanding, what
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`August 6, 2002?
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` Q Yeah.
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` A That is -- yeah.
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` Q Let me start -- restart the question.
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` You say here that you understand that
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`article has been available from the IEEE Xplore
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`website since at least as early as August 6, 2002.
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` What is that understanding based on?
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` A It's based on the IEEE Xplore
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`information.
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` Q Okay. So the date listed in the
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`article itself; is that the basis for your
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`understanding?
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` A The date listed in IEEE Xplore itself.
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` Q Okay. Did you look personally, in
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`2002, for your article in the IEEE Xplore
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`Page 21
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`database?
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` A No.
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` Q Okay. Have you ever personally looked
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`for your article in the IEEE Xplore database?
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` A Yes.
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` Q When?
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` A Several times.
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` Q When?
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` A I can't list a specific date because
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`it is a common practice to look for articles in
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`IEEE databases, especially when my file has been
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`prepared for a promotion.
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` Q Is there any time that you can point
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`out with certainty that you searched IEEE Xplore
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`database and found your article?
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` MR. HINDMAN: Objection --
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` A No.
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` MR. HINDMAN: -- asked and answered.
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` Q Okay. So paragraph 20 at the top of
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`the next page says that the article was published
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`by IEEE in 1996.
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` What do you mean by that statement?
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` A Published by IEEE in 1996.
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` Q Published to whom?
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` A There are two main audiences. One is
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`the conference attendees. The second are
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`subscribers.
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` Subscribers are usually libraries,
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`(inaudible) members, but can also be individual
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`members.
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` Q I think you said you were certain that
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`it was distributed to attendees because you have
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`your own copy which you received at the
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`conference.
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` Is that correct?
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` A That's correct.
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` Q Okay. Do you have any personal
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`knowledge as to whether or not it was also
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`published to subscribers?
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` A In this particular case, I do not.
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` Q Okay. In paragraph 19 -- sorry,
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`paragraph 21, you're referring to a paper that you
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`coauthored with Mr. Zhang.
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` Do you see that?
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` A Yeah; 21.
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` Q In the end of that paragraph, you say:
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` ...I believe this was
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`Page 23
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` conference.
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` Do you see that?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Does this belief mean that you do not
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`know for certain that it was distributed to
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`conference attendees?
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` A I know for certain it was, and the
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`basis for that is twofold.
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` One, I recollect seeing the
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`proceedings after the conference and making copy
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`of the paper.
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` Second, we are required to produce
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`copies, physical copies, of proceeding papers --
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`not electronic copies -- for our own promotion
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`cases; and therefore, this paper was copied from
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`proceedings.
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` Q You say for your promotion case.
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` Does that refer to promotion at the
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`university you're working on?
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` A That's correct.
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` Q Okay. Does that refer to promotion
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`within the IEEE, or no?
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` A I don't know what that means,
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`"promotion in IEEE."
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` Q Okay. When you say "promotion case,"
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`that solely refers to the university.
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` Is that correct?
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` A That's correct.
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` Q Okay. So do you still have a copy --
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`the copy that you say you made of this paper, on
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`which your personal -- your belief here or your
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`certainty that this was distributed is based?
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` A I made the copy. The copy was
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`submitted.
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` Q Submitted to the IEEE?
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` A To the university.
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` Q Oh, university. Okay.
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` Is there a record of this copy or of
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`this submission?
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` A There is likely a record. It's over
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`20 years old, almost 20. So whether I have it
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`handy, I don't know.
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` Q Okay. But you have not found it yet.
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`Right?
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` A I have not looked for it.
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` Q Okay. So you testified earlier, I
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`think, that the IEEE Xplore website was available
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`in 2000.
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` Is that right?
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` MR. HINDMAN: Objection;
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` mischaracterizes testimony.
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` A I don't know. Did I?
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` Q Okay. Let me just reask the question
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`then, if we're both unsure.
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` Do you recall when the IEEE Xplore
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`database became -- came online?
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` A I don't know that.
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` Q Okay. But you do know that by
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`August 6, 2002 it was online.
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` Is that correct?
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` A According to IEEE data.
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` Q Okay. So is it your understanding
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`that your paper, along with all the others, were
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`submitted to the IEEE but became available on IEEE
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`Xplore website only years later, because the
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`website was not online at the time of the
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`conference?
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` A That's correct.
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` Q Okay. And you're not certain, now, as
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`to the exact search capabilities of the website in
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`2002.
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` Is that correct?
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` MR. HINDMAN: Objection;
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` mischaracterizes testimony.
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` (Pause.)
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` Q Did you hear my question?
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` A Can you repeat it?
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` Q Sure. You are not certain today as to
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`the exact search capabilities of that IEEE Xplore
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`website in 2002.
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` Is that correct?
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` A Let me clarify what you mean by
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`"capability" here.
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` Q The search capability of the user
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`interface to search the database for a given
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`article or set of articles.
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` A If you're saying that the user
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`interface is the same as it was before, I don't
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`know the answer.
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` Q Okay. Do you know the search
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`capabilities of the user interface of the IEEE
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`Xplore website in 2002 at all?
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` MR. HINDMAN: Objection; vague.
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` A Let me....
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` "Capability" means many things.
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` Capability does not make interface,
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`which is why I have to clarify that you're talking
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`about interface.
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` Capability refers to ability,
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`functionality, which is usually behind the
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`interface, not --
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` (Discussion off the record.)
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` THE WITNESS: Please reask the
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` question.
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`BY MR. HINDMAN:
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` Q Yeah, sure. Let me restart the
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`question.
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` I'll start it a little bit
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`differently. It might make it easier.
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` Do you know whether it was possible to
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`search the IEEE database in 2002 based on author
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`name?
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` A I believe with reasonable certainty
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`that is the basic user interface.
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` So I am....
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` I am reasonably certain that that was
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`there.
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` Q What is your answer based on?
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` You've already testified that you did
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`not use the IEEE Xplore database at that time.
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`Right?
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` MR. HINDMAN: Objection;
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` mischaracterizes testimony, vague and
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` ambiguous question.
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` A Let's hear the question again.
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` Q Sure. What is your answer based on,
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`given that you've already said that you did not
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`search the IEEE Xplore database in 2002?
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` MR. HINDMAN: Same objection.
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` A It's based on reason. That's why I
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`used the word "reasonable certain."
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` Q Okay. So you don't have personal
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`knowledge of whether that is true or not. Right?
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` MR. HINDMAN: Objection;
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` mischaracterizes testimony.
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` A That certainty is not on actually
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`using for this particular case.
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` Q Okay. So basically, I think what
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`you're saying is that you think it's probably true
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`but you don't know for sure that it is, in fact,
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`true.
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` Is that correct?
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` MR. HINDMAN: Objection; form.
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` A In fact what? What is true and false?
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` Q Let me rephrase that.
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` So I think what you're trying to
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`say -- and please correct me if I'm wrong -- is
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`that you believe it was possible to search by
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`author name, for example, but you are not sure
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`that it is -- that was the case.
`
` Is that right?
`
` A I think that was the word, "reasonably
`
`certain."
`
` Q Okay. Which is something less than
`
`100 percent certain. Right?
`
` A I don't know what "100 percent" is.
`
`There is experiential, experiential certainty.
`
`There's reasonable certainty.
`
` Q Okay. I'm sorry. Did you say you
`
`don't understand what 100 percent certain is?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. Do you know any other metrics
`
`that could be used to search a database in 2002?
`
` A Sorry. I didn't get it. Do I know
`
`what?
`
` Q Any other metrics, in addition to the
`
`example of the author name that I used a minute
`
`ago, that could be used to search the IEEE
`
`database in 2002?
`
` A By "metrics," you mean means by which
`
`you search an article?
`
` Q Yes.
`
` A Would be title, would be year
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Intel Exhibit 1039 - 29
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`published.
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` Q And are you reasonably certain that it
`
`was possible to search by title?
`
` A Same answer: Yes.
`
` Q And what is that reasonable certainty
`
`based on?
`
` A The citation measures up papers,
`
`consist of very basic components -- a title, the
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`author, the place of publication, proceedings or
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`conferences, and the year, and sometimes the
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`month.
`
` Q Okay. Do you know whether a keyword
`
`search was possible at the time?
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