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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`___________________________________________________
`MEDTRONIC, INC., and
`MEDTRONIC VASCULAR, INC.,
`
`Petitioners,
`
`vs.
`
`TELEFLEX INNOVATIONS
`S.A.R.L.,
`
`Case No. IPR2020-00126
`U.S. Patent No. 8,048,032
`
`Patent Owner.
`___________________________________________________
`
`IPR2020-00126 (Patent 8,048,032 B2)
`IPR2020-00127 (Patent 8,048,032 B2)
`IPR2020-00128 (Patent RE45,380 E)
`IPR2020-00129 (Patent RE45,380 E)
`IPR2020-00130 (Patent RE45,380 E)
`IPR2020-00132 (Patent RE45,760 E)
`IPR2020-00134 (Patent RE45,760 E)
`IPR2020-00135 (Patent RE45,776 E)
`IPR2020-00136 (Patent RE45,776 E)
`IPR2020-00137 (Patent RE47,379 E)
`IPR2020-00138 (Patent RE47,379 E)
`____________________________________________________
`VIDEOCONFERENCE VIDEOTAPED
`DEPOSITION OF
`JOHN J. GRAHAM, MB ChB, MRCP (UK)
`
`DATE: November 19, 2020
`TIME: 9:03 a.m.
`PLACE: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
`(via videoconference)
`JOB NO.: MW 4338269
`
`REPORTED BY: Dawn Workman Bounds, CSR
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`www.veritext.com
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`888-391-3376
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`IPR2020-01343
`
`Medtronic Ex-1801
`Medtronic v. Teleflex
`Page 1 of 65
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`Page 2
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`Page 4
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`1 A P P E A R A N C E S
`2 (ALL APPEARANCES VIA VIDEOCONFERENCE)
`3 ON BEHALF OF PETITIONERS:
`4 CHRISTOPHER PINAHS, ESQ.
` CYRUS A. MORTON, ESQ.
`5 ROBINS KAPLAN LLP
` 2800 LaSalle Plaza
`6 800 LaSalle Ave
` Minneapolis, MN 55401
`7 612.349.8500
` cpinahs@robinskaplan.com
`8 camorton@rkmc.com
`9
`10 ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
`11 PETER KOHLHEPP, ESQ.
` SHELLEAHA L. JONAS, ESQ.
`12 CARLSON CASPERS VANDENBURGH & LINDQUIST, PA.
` Capella Tower, Suite 4200
`13 225 South Sixth Street
` Minneapolis, MN 55402
`14 612.436.9623
` pkohlhepp@carlsoncaspers.com
`15 sjonas@carlsoncaspers.com
`16
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`
` Greg Smock, Telefex Counsel
`
` Matthew Kwan, Videographer
`
`17
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`18
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`19
`20
`21
`22
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`24
`25
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`1 P R O C E E D I N G S
`2 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning, everyone.
`3 We are now going on the record. The time is 9:03 a.m.
`4 Central Time. Today's date is November 19, 2020. Please
`5 note that microphones are sensitive and may pick up
`6 whispering, private conversations, and cellular
`7 interference. Please turn off all cell phones and place
`8 them away from the microphones as they can interfere with
`9 the deposition audio.
`10 Audio and video recordings will continue
`11 to take place unless all parties agree to go off the
`12 record. This is media unit number 1 of the
`13 video-recorded deposition of Dr. John Graham. This is
`14 taken by counsel for the Petitioner in the matter of
`15 Medtronic, Inc. and Medtronic Vascular, Inc. versus
`16 Teleflex Innovations, filed in the United States Patent
`17 Trademark Office. The Case Number is IPR2020-00126.
`18 This deposition is being held via Veritext Zoom remote
`19 conferencing.
`20 My name is Matthew Kwan from Veritext. I
`21 am the videographer. The court reporter today is Dawn
`22 Bounds also from Veritext. I am not authorized to
`23 administer an oath. I'm not related to any of the
`24 parties in this action nor am I financially interested in
`25 the outcome.
`
`Page 3
`
`Page 5
`
`1 I N D E X
`2 WITNESS: JOHN J. GRAAM PAGE
`3 EXAMINATION BY MR. PINAHS.......................... 6
`4 EXAMINATION BY MR. KOHLHEPP........................ 122
`5 EXHIBITS MARKED/REFERRED TO
`6 No. 1117: Diagram, circles........................ 29
`7
`
`PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS/REFERRED TO
`
`8
`
`9
`
`No. 1009: Patent No. 5,439,445.................... 40
`
`No. 1012: Joint Claim Construction Statement
`10 between QXMedical v. Vascular
` Solutions, Inc.......................... 9
`
`11
`
`12
`
`No. 1201: Citation, '380 patent................... 20
`
`No. 2145: Declaration of Dr. John Graham
`13 IPR2020-00126........................... 6
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`1 Counsel and all present in the room and
`2 everyone attending remotely will now please state their
`3 appearances and affiliations for the record. If there
`4 are any objections to the proceeding, please state them
`5 at the time of your appearance, beginning with the
`6 noticing attorney.
`7 MR. PINAHS: Chris Pinahs from the Robins
`8 Kaplan firm on behalf of Petitioner Medtronic. I'll also
`9 be joined later today by my colleague Cy Morton also of
`10 the Robins Kaplan law firm.
`11 MR. KOHLHEPP: Peter Kohlhepp on -- of the
`12 Carlson Caspers law firm on behalf of the Patent Owner.
`13 I'm also joined today by Shelly Jonahs also of the
`14 Carlson Caspers law firm, as well as Greg Smock, counsel
`15 for Teleflex.
`16 THE REPORTER: Due to the need for this
`17 deposition to take place remotely because of the
`18 government's order for physical distancing, the parties
`19 will stipulate that the court reporter may swear in the
`20 witness over the videoconference and that the witness has
`21 verified that he is in fact Dr. John Graham.
`22 Agreed, counsel?
`23 MR. PINAHS: So stipulated by Petitioner.
`24 MR. KOHLHEPP: Agreed by the Patent Owner.
`25 THE REPORTER: Proceed.
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`Page 6
`1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: You may now proceed.
`2 JOHN J. GRAHAM, MB ChB, MRCP (UK),
`3 duly sworn via videoconference as stipulated by counsel
`4 was examined and testified as follows:
`5 EXAMINATION
`6 BY MR. PINAHS:
`7 Q. Welcome back, Dr. Graham.
`8 A. Good morning.
`9 Q. One piece of housekeeping before we begin,
`10 Dr. Graham.
`11 MR. PINAHS: Counsel, the notice at the
`12 beginning was only for the 126 IPR. I'd like you to just
`13 agree -- or can we agree on the record that today's
`14 deposition transcript applies equally to all 11
`15 instituted IPRs?
`16 MR. KOHLHEPP: Counsel, we will agree
`17 subject to the parties' agreement in the deposition
`18 notice regarding the topics for day two.
`19 MR. PINAHS: All right. Thanks.
`20 BY MR. PINAHS:
`21 Q. Dr. Graham, I would like you to pull out
`22 Exhibit 2145 again, which is your declaration.
`23 A. I have it.
`24 Q. Excellent. Just to orient you, I'm going to do
`25 my best today to work from hard copies again like we did
`
`Page 7
`1 yesterday. We may have to pull up document share from
`2 time to time, but I will endeavor to keep it simple and
`3 on the hard copies.
`4 A. Understood.
`5 Q. All right. So the first thing that I neglected
`6 to ask you yesterday was what's the smallest size balloon
`7 or stent you've delivered through a catheter and catheter
`8 assembly?
`9 A. The smallest size...
`10 Do you mean the balloon diameter or the
`11 crossing profile of the catheter?
`12 Q. Balloon diameter.
`13 A. One millimeter.
`14 Q. And what about the crossing profile?
`15 A. That, I'm --
`16 MR. KOHLHEPP: I'm going to object to
`17 form. Go ahead.
`18 A. That, I am unclear because it's something
`19 that's not at the top of my head. I would have to go
`20 back and review the data.
`21 BY MR. PINAHS:
`22 Q. All right. So my colleague also reminded me,
`23 Doctor, that I neglected to walk through your legal
`24 standards section with you yesterday, so I'd like to
`25 start there.
`
`Page 8
`
`1 If you could turn to page 10 of your
`2 declaration, I'm going to work again off of the page
`3 numbers on the lower left of the page.
`4 Just let me know when you're there.
`5 A. I am there.
`6 Q. All right. And this is the legal standard that
`7 you set forth for claim construction, correct?
`8 A. So earlier on, I think I state that I'm not a
`9 lawyer. In fact, just at the bottom of page 9, bottom
`10 left, in paragraph 13, I state I'm not an attorney. And
`11 the legal standards that I'm including in this, I've been
`12 informed by counsel that they are appropriate.
`13 THE REPORTER: That they are what?
`14 BY MR. PINAHS:
`15 Q. You endeavored to --
`16 THE WITNESS: Appropriate.
`17 THE REPORTER: Appropriate. Thank you.
`18 BY MR. PINAHS:
`19 Q. And, Doctor, you endeavored to apply these
`20 standards when we were, for example, talking about the
`21 claims construction of an interventional cardiology
`22 device yesterday, correct?
`23 A. I did.
`24 Q. All right. I'd like to direct your attention
`25 to paragraph 17.
`
`Page 9
`
`1 And in paragraph 17, you say, unless
`2 otherwise noted, you apply the constructions from Exhibit
`3 1012.
`4 Do you see that?
`5 A. In the document filed by the Petitioner as
`6 Exhibit 1012?
`7 Q. Correct.
`8 A. Yes.
`9 Q. All right. So the -- in your declaration, you
`10 provide a construction for an interventional cardiology
`11 device and a means plus function claim term for the '380
`12 patent, correct?
`13 A. Could you direct me to that part of my
`14 declaration, please; or I can spend some time finding it?
`15 Q. I will -- I'll find it for you, Doctor.
`16 You know what, why don't you go to page 3.
`17 I think that's probably the easiest place to see it.
`18 A. The contents page.
`19 Q. So, Doctor, I'm just looking for you to confirm
`20 that you provide a claim construction for two different
`21 terms in your declaration, correct?
`22 A. I'm sorry, you directed me to page 3.
`23 And where are you talking on page 3?
`24 Q. Yeah, so there's a Roman numeral VII. It says,
`25 "The meaning of certain terms used in the claims of the
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`Page 10
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`Page 12
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`1 GuideLiner patents."
`2 Do you see that?
`3 A. I do, yes.
`4 Q. And you could feel free to jump forward in your
`5 declaration to page 43 or 48.
`6 But it's my understanding that you provide
`7 a construction for the claims to an interventional
`8 cardiology device and also that means for receiving and
`9 guiding the interventional device claim term, correct?
`10 A. Yes, agree to both.
`11 Q. All right. So let's go back to paragraph 17
`12 again, then.
`13 So other than the two claim terms that we
`14 just identified in your table of contents, any other
`15 claim terms would come from Exhibit 1012, correct?
`16 A. From the top of my head, yes; but I would have
`17 to -- there's 130-odd pages of this. I would have to
`18 read through it, but both two claim terms I agree are
`19 included. I don't think there any more. If you're
`20 saying they're all from 1012, then I will agree with
`21 that.
`22 Q. Yeah, that's all I wanted to understand,
`23 Doctor.
`24 Let's pull out claim -- or Exhibit 1012.
`25 I want to talk about a few of those claim terms.
`
`1 A. If the angled opening is at the proximal end,
`2 it would imply that the distance to it --
`3 MR. KOHLHEPP: Sorry, I don't know if that
`4 got on the record.
`5 THE REPORTER: I don't -- I didn't hear
`6 anything. What did you say?
`7 MR. KOHLHEPP: I'm sorry.
`8 I said, object to form.
`9 A. So the it says, "The angled opening at the
`10 proximal opening of the tubing of the guide extension
`11 catheter."
`12 So the proximal -- the opening is at the
`13 proximal end of the tubing, yes.
`14 BY MR. PINAHS:
`15 Q. And in your experience, is it common to have a
`16 tubular portion distal to the side opening of a catheter?
`17 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form.
`18 A. Could you repeat that question for me, please.
`19 Sorry.
`20 BY MR. PINAHS:
`21 Q. In your experience, is it common to have a
`22 proximal end -- excuse me. Let me rephrase that.
`23 In your experience, is it common to have a
`24 tubular portion distal to the side opening of a
`25 catheter?
`
`Page 11
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`Page 13
`
`1 A. I have 1012.
`2 Q. Excellent. All right. I want to direct your
`3 attention to page 17. Again, I'm working from the lower
`4 left-hand column page numbers.
`5 Let me know when you're there.
`6 A. I am there.
`7 Q. Okay. And there should be a discussion of the
`8 claim term "side opening." Do you see that?
`9 A. Claim number 5.
`10 Q. And in the right-hand column, is VSI, or
`11 Teleflex's proposed construction of side opening.
`12 Do you see that?
`13 A. I do, yes.
`14 Q. And is that the construction of side opening
`15 that you applied in your declaration?
`16 A. As I state, other than the claim terms that I
`17 put in it, the rest comes from 1012, so that would be it.
`18 Q. All right. And it states here that a side
`19 opening is an angled opening at the proximal end of the
`20 tubing of the guide extension catheter.
`21 That's the construction you applied,
`22 correct?
`23 A. That is correct.
`24 Q. And that language would indicate that a tubular
`25 region is found distal to the side opening, correct?
`
`1 A. It's not common.
`2 Q. So let's take, for example, the GuideLiner.
`3 The GuideLiner has a proximal side opening
`4 and a tubular portion distal to that, correct?
`5 A. Correct.
`6 Q. And do you remember the Itou reference we were
`7 talking about yesterday?
`8 A. I do, yes.
`9 Q. And that's another example of a proximal side
`10 opening with a tubular portion distal to the opening,
`11 correct?
`12 A. As described in Itou, yes.
`13 Q. All right. I want you to flip now to page 10
`14 of that document.
`15 I want to direct you to the claim term
`16 "flexible tip portion." Do you see that?
`17 A. I do, yes.
`18 Q. And it's says, "Plain and ordinary meaning for
`19 flexible tip portion." Do you see that?
`20 A. Under VSI's construction, do you mean?
`21 Q. Correct. Yeah.
`22 A. So "No construction necessary. Flexible tip
`23 portion and flexible cylindrical distal tip portion
`24 should be given their plain and ordinary meaning."
`25 I see that.
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`Page 14
`1 Q. So what is the plain and ordinary meaning of
`2 flexible tip portion?
`3 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form; scope.
`4 A. Its tip portion that is distal and is flexible.
`5 BY MR. PINAHS:
`6 Q. And would it have a lumen?
`7 A. It doesn't specify that.
`8 Q. As you read as one of skill in the art, would
`9 you know whether or not a flexible tip portion has a
`10 lumen?
`11 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form.
`12 A. It doesn't necessarily have to have one.
`13 BY MR. PINAHS:
`14 Q. All right. I want you to go down to the next
`15 claim term on this same page, which is defining a rail
`16 structure without a lumen. And I want you to go to VSI,
`17 Teleflex's proposed construction.
`18 A. Yes.
`19 Q. And it states that "The lumen means a
`20 passageway through which interventional cardiology
`21 devices are insertable."
`22 Do you see that language?
`23 A. I do, yes.
`24 Q. And when we were talking about a lumen
`25 yesterday, is that your understanding or is that the
`
`Page 15
`
`1 interpretation you applied?
`2 A. Well, it depends.
`3 Q. And what does it depend on, Doctor?
`4 A. Well, it depends if you're talking about an
`5 artery or a vascular structure, the term "lumen" would
`6 refer to that.
`7 But for this the term "lumen" is construed
`8 as the passageway or conduit through which interventional
`9 cardiology devices are insertable. I agree with that.
`10 Q. All right. Yes, that's a fair clarification,
`11 Doctor. Let me put -- let me rephrase that question.
`12 When we were talking about the lumen of
`13 catheters, do you interpret that to mean a passageway
`14 through which interventional cardiology devices are
`15 insertable?
`16 A. If the catheter is designed to have an
`17 interventional device inserted through it, then, yes, the
`18 lumen would be what I would state is a passageway through
`19 which interventional cardiology devices are insertable.
`20 But the caveat is if that device is
`21 designed and intended to have devices passed through it.
`22 Q. Understood. Doctor, you can set that document
`23 aside for now.
`24 All right. I'm going to ask some
`25 questions now about the means for receiving and guiding
`
`Page 16
`1 claimed construction. And I'll orient you, Doctor, to
`2 paragraph 93 of your declaration. I'm going to ask some
`3 really high-level questions. I don't think you're going
`4 to need your declaration, but feel free to take a look if
`5 you want to. I want you to know where I'm going.
`6 A. Okay. I am at paragraph 93.
`7 Q. So I think it's your opinion that no lumen
`8 structures are cited for the tip portion and reinforced
`9 portion of that claim term, right?
`10 A. For claim 25 of the '380 patent, I agree.
`11 Q. And I think you set this forth in paragraph 96
`12 of your declaration, but did you consult the
`13 specifications of the '380 patent in reaching that
`14 conclusion?
`15 A. So I've read all the patent --
`16 MR. KOHLHEPP: Objection, form.
`17 A. I've read all the patents; but yes, I read all
`18 of the claims of all the patents, so I have read claim 25
`19 of the '380 patent.
`20 BY MR. PINAHS:
`21 Q. All right. I want you to read the last
`22 sentence of paragraph 96, please.
`23 A. "In my opinion, there is not enough structure
`24 for performing these functions described in the claim
`25 alone because the claim lacks the necessary structure at
`
`Page 17
`1 least for guiding the interventional device deeper into
`2 the branch vessel."
`3 Q. All right. So in concluding that the tip
`4 portion and the reinforced portion do not recite a lumen,
`5 you considered the claim language alone, correct?
`6 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form.
`7 A. So I considered a lot of things, but -- and
`8 the -- the -- so the structure -- so yes. Yes.
`9 BY MR. PINAHS:
`10 Q. I didn't get a clean answer on that, Doctor.
`11 Just let me ask it again.
`12 So in concluding that the tip portion of
`13 the reinforced -- let me try that again. I'm reading it
`14 wrong myself.
`15 So in concluding that the tip portion and
`16 the reinforced portion do not recite a lumen, you
`17 considered the claim language alone, correct?
`18 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form.
`19 A. Well, the claim language and the knowledgeable
`20 of a POSITA.
`21 BY MR. PINAHS:
`22 Q. Okay. And you didn't consult the
`23 specification, correct?
`24 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form.
`25 A. Could you define or expand on that?
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`Page 18
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`Page 20
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`1 BY MR. PINAHS:
`2 Q. Absolutely.
`3 So the language at paragraph 96, as you
`4 read into the record, says that as described in the claim
`5 langua -- claim alone, you conclude that the tip portion,
`6 reinforced portion do not recite a lumen.
`7 With me so far?
`8 A. I am, yes.
`9 Q. And I just want to know whether or not you
`10 considered the portions of the specification in reaching
`11 that conclusion?
`12 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form.
`13 BY MR. PINAHS:
`14 Q. And, Doctor, I want to make sure we're not
`15 talking past each other.
`16 Do you know what the patent specification
`17 is?
`18 A. So yes, but I'm getting a bit -- a little bit
`19 confused, if I'm being honest with you.
`20 Q. Yeah, no, that's what I assessed, and so that's
`21 why I jumped in. Let's set some context for what I'm
`22 asking you.
`23 So in paragraph 96, it looks like you're
`24 saying, based off of the claim language alone, I can't
`25 tell whether there's a lumen for the reinforced and tip
`
`Page 19
`
`1 portion, correct?
`2 A. Correct.
`3 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form.
`4 BY MR. PINAHS:
`5 Q. And I want to know whether or not you used, for
`6 example, the abstract, the specification, which is all
`7 the language prior to the claims, or the figures of the
`8 patent to inform that conclusion?
`9 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form.
`10 A. So reading the whole patent with the knowledge
`11 of a POSITA, it wasn't one part of that was taken in its
`12 entirety.
`13 I think that claim 25, within that, it's
`14 one area that I did not feel that the structure defined
`15 was enough for performing that function.
`16 So I don't know if it was just the
`17 specifications, it was looking at the -- within the whole
`18 patent.
`19 Q. So, Doctor, I want just a yes or no answer to
`20 this question.
`21 Did counsel inform you of whether or not
`22 you're supposed to consider anything in the patent other
`23 than the claims to construe a means plus function claim
`24 limitation?
`25 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form.
`
`1 Dr. Graham, you can answer yes or no, to
`2 the extent you can.
`3 A. I'm not sure if I can recall.
`4 I -- it's a binary answer you're looking
`5 for, and I'm not sure if I can give it.
`6 I'm not sure.
`7 Q. All right. Let's try it this way, Doctor.
`8 Still in paragraph 96?
`9 A. Yes.
`10 Q. And your citation to the patent, which is
`11 Exhibit 1201, do you see that?
`12 A. I do, yes.
`13 Q. And you cite -- column 13, line 52 through
`14 column 14, line 5, do you see that?
`15 A. I do, yes.
`16 Q. And can you pull out the '380 patent and
`17 confirm that that is only the claim language from claim
`18 25 and nothing else in the '380 patent?
`19 A. Claim 25 has other -- there is some more to
`20 claim 25 proximal to that.
`21 But 1352 to 1405 considers that which is
`22 included in 96 -- in paragraph 96 of my declaration.
`23 Q. So in conjunction with what you just told me
`24 there, as well as the next sentence which says, "Describe
`25 in the claim language alone," does that refresh your
`
`Page 21
`1 recollection that you only relied upon the claim language
`2 to reach your construction of this means plus function
`3 claim?
`4 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form.
`5 A. I don't think you can say that from just that.
`6 You know, I've read all the patents,
`7 looked at all the diagrams and the prior art; so I don't
`8 think that paragraph 96 just -- is just related to claim
`9 25, that section that was highlighted. That part refers
`10 to that, but I'm not taking that in its -- in exclusion
`11 of all other aspects of the patent.
`12 Q. Okay. Why don't we go to Figure 1, then, of
`13 the '380 patent.
`14 A. I have it.
`15 Q. All right. And I -- you can check, if you'd
`16 like, but I will -- but I will confirm for you that the
`17 reinforced portion is 18, and the tip portion is 16.
`18 And both of those have a lumen, correct?
`19 A. From Figure 1 you can see a proximal opening
`20 adjacent to 20. And I would -- just to make sure I'm not
`21 speaking out of turn, I would just like to look at the
`22 description of Figure 1.
`23 So I can see a proximal lumen at -- or
`24 what is purported to be a lumen at 20, so it may well
`25 have a lumen.
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`Page 22
`1 Q. And that 46 portion above it, do you see that?
`2 A. I do, yes.
`3 Q. And that's the tapered portion of the tapered
`4 inner catheter 42.
`5 Would that confirm for you that the lumen
`6 traveled all the way through the figure, or the 18 and 16
`7 portions that we were just talking about?
`8 A. Yes.
`9 Q. Okay. I'd like to go to figure 3 now.
`10 Do you see that it shows the reinforced
`11 portion 18 and the tip portion 16 there?
`12 A. Yes.
`13 Q. And that dashed line is indicating a lumen
`14 throughout, correct?
`15 A. It appears to show that.
`16 Q. All right. Let's go to figure 4.
`17 That also shows a lumen and reinforced
`18 portion in 18 and tip portion 16, correct?
`19 A. I can't see a description of figure 4 within
`20 the detailed descriptions. It's not clear what the
`21 dashed line is on that.
`22 Q. Well, let me ask it this way.
`23 I think you told me yesterday, Doctor,
`24 that figure 4 shows a 2 inclined proximal opening.
`25 Do you remember that?
`
`Page 24
`
`1 Q. So in -- Doctor, in all the figures we looked
`2 at, there's a lumen for both the reinforced portion and
`3 the tip portion.
`4 Would you agree?
`5 A. The figures we have just looked at in the
`6 preceding 5, 10 minutes or so?
`7 Q. Feel free, Doctor, if you would like, you can
`8 look at any of the figures. I don't think the answer's
`9 going to be any different.
`10 A. There is a lumen.
`11 Q. All right. You can set that aside for now,
`12 Doctor.
`13 So I want to ask some questions specific
`14 to the function of receiving and guiding an
`15 interventional device.
`16 I want to know, can a child catheter have
`17 a tubular structure that's not perfectly coaxial with the
`18 guide catheter and perform the function of receiving and
`19 guiding an interventional device?
`20 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form.
`21 A. I'd have to think about that. I know that the
`22 GuideLiner receives interventional devices and it is
`23 coaxial.
`24 I'm not -- I've not considered whether
`25 something that was not coaxial could do that.
`
`Page 23
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`Page 25
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`1 A. If it's on the record, then, yes, that is what
`2 I said.
`3 Q. All right. So that -- if there is a 2 inclined
`4 proximal opening there in figure 4, would that indicate
`5 to you that there's a lumen in reinforced portion 18 and
`6 tip portion 16?
`7 A. It would imply that there's a 2 inclined angled
`8 proximal opening distally from this.
`9 It doesn't define it completely that it's
`10 hollow all the way through it.
`11 Q. You don't have any reason, though, to believe
`12 that there is not a lumen at least in the portion of
`13 figure 4's catheter that's shown, correct?
`14 A. If you look at it objectively, I wouldn't have
`15 a reason to believe it was hollow or solid.
`16 Q. So I'll direct your attention to column 5, line
`17 49.
`18 Let me know when you're there.
`19 A. I'm there.
`20 Q. So it says figure 4 is a sectional view of the
`21 coaxial guide catheter in accordance with present
`22 invention.
`23 The coaxial guide catheter has a lumen,
`24 right?
`25 A. Correct.
`
`1 BY MR. PINAHS:
`2 Q. So let's say you had a 7 French guide catheter
`3 and a 5 French extension catheter.
`4 Could that receive and guide deeper an
`5 interventional device?
`6 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form; scope.
`7 A. So you're stating to use a 5 French guide
`8 extension catheter inside a 7 French guide catheter,
`9 which is not really the way that it is intended; agreed?
`10 BY MR. PINAHS:
`11 Q. I agree that that might not be the way it's
`12 intended.
`13 I just want to know if you could receive
`14 and guide an interventional device when you use a 7
`15 French guide catheter with a 5 French extension inside?
`16 A. So I have personally --
`17 MR. KOHLHEPP: Sorry.
`18 Same objections; form and scope.
`19 A. So I have personally undertaken similar
`20 endeavors; not with 5 French, but with 6 French in 7 or 8
`21 French guides; and I have used that to deliver devices;
`22 not as intended in the IFU - that's the Instruction for
`23 Use - but I have performed that.
`24 I should add that it's not through
`25 choice.
`
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`Medtronic Ex-1801
`Medtronic v. Teleflex
`Page 7 of 65
`
`

`

`Page 26
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`Page 28
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`1 BY MR. PINAHS:
`2 Q. So in that scenario where you had a 6 French
`3 extension catheter and an 8 French guide, was the
`4 extension catheter coaxial within the guide as you
`5 interpret the term "coaxial"?
`6 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form; scope.
`7 A. So I've not considered whether that would be
`8 coaxial 6 French and 8 French as opposed to the way it's
`9 designed, which is 6 and 6, which is certainly coaxial.
`10 I've not considered 6 and 8 specifically,
`11 and I don't think I did that in my declaration. So I'm
`12 not -- I'd have to think about that some more
`13 Q. Well, let's unpack that, then, Doctor.
`14 You've given a construction of coaxial or
`15 an interpretation of coaxial in this case.
`16 How do you interpret the term "coaxial"?
`17 A. So again, there are different ways of defining
`18 coaxial whether you're talking about -- but for the
`19 purpose -- so there's a way of discussing -- or
`20 describing coaxial in terms of when you're injecting
`21 contrast in a coronary artery, you want your guide cath
`22 to be coaxial.
`23 And within the meanings of that, you mean
`24 that you are centered inside the -- the artery, and
`25 you're along the center. And the reason for that is you
`
`1 Q. Would that be a coaxial arrangement?
`2 MR. KOHLHEPP: Object to form; scope.
`3 A. So again, within the confines of this, I didn't
`4 specifically consider 6 and 8.
`5 I'd have to think about that some more.
`6 BY MR. PINAHS:
`7 Q. All right. I'm happy to do that, Doctor.
`8 What else would you need to know?
`9 A. Right now, on spec? On a sort of ad hoc basis?
`10 Q. Correct.
`11 MR. KOHLHEPP: So I'm going to -- I don't
`12 know exactly what the question is, but I'm going to
`13 object to form and scope.
`14 BY MR. PINAHS:
`15 Q. Doctor, let's do this. Give me one second. We
`16 can even stay on the record.
`17 Doctor, I'm going to have you go to
`18 document share. The document will show up shortly.
`19 You can start to pull it up on your screen
`20 if it's helpful.
`21 A. So yesterday you mentioned that I -- I didn't
`22 have the access -- even though I had logged in, I didn't
`23 have access.
`24 If you direct me towards it, I'll see if
`25 I've got access today.
`
`Page 27
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`Page 29
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`1 are less likely to cause dissection or destruction.
`2 I think that in terms of a guide catheter
`3 extension, it would be a -- not just in the direction of
`4 the access of the catheter, but centered -- axially
`5 centered within it.
`6 Q. Have you ever heard of the term "coaxial" to
`7 mean a tube within a tube?
`8 A. No. So coaxial is talking about the --
`9 the rela -- so it's the relationship of the inner -- of
`10 the inner tube to the outer tube. So it's not just a
`11 tube in a tube; I wouldn't say.
`12 Q. All right. Let me ask this, then, maybe it
`13 will help me understand.
`14 Let's go back to the example we were
`15 talking about before with an 8 French guide catheter and
`16 a 6 French child catheter. With me so far?
`17 A. Yes.
`18 Q. All right. Let's say the 6 French extension
`19 catheter was just sitting at the bottom of the 8 French
`20 guide catheter. With me still?
`21 A. What do you mean by "bottom"?
`22 Q. As in the bottom side of the extension catheter
`23 would be sitting on the bottom of the guide catheter like
`24 this.
`25 A. So it is -- okay, I understand.
`
`1 MR.