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`
`P R O C E E D I N G S
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are on video.
`THE REPORTER: We are on the record.
`Before I swear the witness I would like to state for
`the record it is my understanding there is no
`objection to swearing the witness remotely. Please
`speak up only if you have an objection.
`Hearing none; Mr. Erb, would you raise your
`right hand to be sworn?
` (Witness sworn.)
`STEVEN J. ERB,
`Called as a witness, being first
`duly sworn, was examined and
`testified as follows:
`EXAMINATION
`
`BY MS. TREMBLAY:
`Q.
`Good morning, Mr. Erb. My name is Emily
`Tremblay. I'm an attorney with Robins Kaplan, and I'm
`here on behalf of Medtronic, Inc., and Medtronic
`Vascular, Inc.
`You've given a deposition before; is that
`correct, Mr. Erb?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`And actually the deposition that you've
`given before, it was for a related proceeding
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
`1-800-553-1953 info@stirewalt.com
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`involving Medtronic and Teleflex; is that correct?
`A.
`That's correct.
`Q.
`And involving, in particular, the GuideLiner
`invention which we're going to discuss today; correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`So given that we've been here before, I'm
`going to skip some of the introductory deposition
`rules, but please speak up if you have any questions
`as we go. If you don't understand my question, please
`ask me to rephrase. We will be taking breaks, but if
`you'd like one before I call for one, please speak up
`and we'll accommodate.
`Now is there any reason that you will not be
`able to understand my questions and answer truthfully
`and completely today?
`A.
`No.
`Q.
`Great.
`Any questions before we begin?
`A.
`No.
`Q.
`Okay. So what did you do to prepare for
`your deposition today? And before you answer, I'm not
`interested in any advice that you may have received
`from your attorneys, I'm just interested in what you
`did to prepare for today.
`A.
`Well I studied and read my declaration, and
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
`1-800-553-1953 info@stirewalt.com
`07/25/2021 02:39:44 PM
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`________________
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`________________
`MEDTRONIC, INC., AND, MEDTRONIC VASCULAR, INC.,
`Petitioner,
`v.
`TELEFLEX LIFE SCIENCES LIMITED,
`Patent Owner.
`________________
`Case No. IPR2020-01341
`Case No. IPR2020-01342
`Case No. IPR2020-01343
`Case No. IPR2020-01344
`U.S. Patent No. 8,142,413
`________________
`DEPOSITION OF STEVEN J. ERB
`VOLUME I, PAGES 1 - 43
`JULY 22, 2021
`
` (The following is the deposition of STEVEN
`J. ERB, taken pursuant to Notice of Taking
`Deposition, conducted remotely and via videotape,
`commencing at approximately 8:55 o'clock a.m., July
`22, 2021.)
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`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
`1-800-553-1953 info@stirewalt.com
`
`APPEARANCES:
` On Behalf of the Petitioner:
` Emily Tremblay
` ROBINS KAPLAN, LLP
` 2800 LaSalle Plaza
` 800 LaSalle Avenue
` Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
`
` On Behalf of the Patent Owner:
`
` Alex S. Rinn
` Tara C. Norgard
` CARLSON CASPERS VANDENBURGH
` & LINDQUIST, P.A.
` 4200 Capella Tower
` 225 South Sixth Street
` Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`
` Jacob A. Arvold, Videographer
` Greg Smock, Teleflex
`
`EXAMINATION INDEX
`WITNESS EXAMINED BY PAGE
`Mr. Erb
`Ms. Tremblay
` 3,39
`Mr. Rinn
` 35,40
`
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
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`IPR2020-01343
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`Medtronic Ex-1799
`Medtronic v. Teleflex
`Page 1 of 16
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`

`

`5
`I did read over the -- the last deposition, too. I
`read that over.
`Q.
`The "last deposition" that one of my
`colleagues took in the related proceedings, that's
`what you're referring to?
`A.
`Correct, yeah. I think it was back in May.
`Q.
`Did you review any documents other than your
`declaration to prepare for today, and other than the
`deposition transcript that you referenced?
`A.
`Yes, there were a few prints and a -- a few
`
`POs.
`
`Q.
`Just for the record, by "prints" are you
`referring to engineering drawings, or something else?
`A.
`Yeah, maybe engineering drawings,
`blueprints.
`Q.
`And by "POs," are you referring to purchase
`orders?
`A.
`
`Okay. Excuse me. I got a --
`Can you hear that? I don't know what that
`is. I'm sorry.
`Q.
`Debby or Jacob, are you getting background
`interference? Or Mr. Erb, are you getting background
`interference?
`A.
`Yeah, I was, okay. So I -- I -- I shut it
`off so it's -- It's fine, I guess.
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
`1-800-553-1953 info@stirewalt.com
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`
`Q.
`A.
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`Sorry about that.
`And so --
`No problem. I'm just going to clarify one
`more time. So when you reference "POs," are you
`referring to purchase orders?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`Okay. So you reviewed some prints and some
`purchase orders; any other documents that you reviewed
`to prepare for today?
`A.
`No.
`Q.
`Okay. So Mr. Erb, did you receive a packet
`of documents for this deposition?
`A.
`Yes, I did. I have it here.
`Q.
`Okay. Great.
`Could you please take out what's already
`been marked as Exhibit 2122?
`A.
`Yeah. Can you please -- please repeat that?
`Twenty --
`Q.
`Sure. It should be marked in the lower
`right-hand corner, Exhibit 2122.
`A.
`Twenty-one -- Okay. Okay. I have that,
`
`yep.
`
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`7
`
`It's the Declaration of Steven Erb.
`So this is your declaration; is that
`
`A.
`Q.
`correct?
`A.
`That is correct.
`Q.
`Did you speak with anyone, other than your
`attorneys, to prepare Exhibit 2122?
`A.
`No, I did not.
`Q.
`And Mr. Erb, you submitted a previous
`declaration in the related proceedings involving
`Medtronic and Teleflex and GuideLiner; is that
`correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`And you gave a deposition related to that
`first declaration; true?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`So is Exhibit 2122 that you have in front of
`you now, is that the same as your first declaration?
`A.
`It's very similar. I think we did change a
`few -- or clarify a few sentences.
`Q.
`Okay. Do you remember which portions of
`this declaration were clarified or changed compared to
`your first declaration?
`A.
`No, I did -- I do not. I did -- did not
`compare.
`Q.
`Okay. That's fine. As we walk through it,
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
`1-800-553-1953 info@stirewalt.com
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`I -- I'm -- I'll be in a position to represent to you
`what's been changed from your first declaration.
`A.
`Okay.
`Q.
`Do you know --
`So the changes that you made, do you know
`why you changed material between your first
`declaration and this declaration?
`A.
`I think it was just to -- to make everything
`more complete, more understandable.
`Q.
`To make it more complete. So did you speak
`with anyone to refresh your recolle -- your
`recollection, excuse me, as to any material that you
`added for completeness?
`A.
`Well I think we just went over with -- with
`my attorneys and just, you know, as we went -- went
`through it, my memory was -- you know, had been
`jogged, so maybe I remembered a few more details.
`Q.
`Okay. So in these conversations where your
`memory was jogged, were you reviewing any additional
`documents that helped to jog your memory, do you
`remember?
`A.
`No, I do not remember.
`Q.
`Okay. So Mr. Erb, you know, you've given a
`deposition before, I don't want to spend too much time
`on your background, we've already covered that, but
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`Q.
`
`Okay. Great.
`So what is Exhibit 2122?
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
`1-800-553-1953 info@stirewalt.com
`07/25/2021 02:39:44 PM
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`IPR2020-01343
`
`Medtronic Ex-1799
`Medtronic v. Teleflex
`Page 2 of 16
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`9
`
`just briefly, you began working for Vascular
`Solutions, Inc. or VSI in 2005; is that correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`And you began working for VSI as a
`technician in the Research and Development Group;
`correct?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`I believe your declaration set forth that
`some of your responsibilities included machining
`parts; is that correct?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`And I believe it also included designing
`tools; true?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`And I believe that in your declaration you
`referenced assisting engineers; is that correct?
`A.
`Repeat that.
`Q.
`I believe you also referenced that your job
`in 2005 at VSI involved assisting engineers; is that
`correct?
`A.
`That's correct.
`Q.
`Anything else that would have been part of
`your job as a technician in 2005/2006 that you'd like
`to add for completeness?
`A.
`Yeah, I also procured materials or bought
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
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`10
`materials for prototype projects or, yeah, whatever we
`were working on.
`Q.
`Anything else?
`A.
`That would probably be about it.
`Q.
`So Mr. Erb, what is GuideLiner?
`A.
`It's a catheter, or it -- it's used as a
`launching pad to launch a catheter further into the
`body to, you know, get purchase so I can move a
`catheter further -- further out to deliver another
`product.
`Q.
`And you worked on the GuideLiner project; is
`that correct?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`When did you begin working on GuideLiner?
`A.
`It would have been early 2005.
`Q.
`Do you remember who else was working on the
`project in 2005?
`A.
`Yeah, there was Jim Kauphusman, Jeff Welch,
`and from above it would have been Gregg Sutton and
`Howard Root was -- was directing the project. I --
`And I suppose various technicians, too, for doing
`testing.
`Q.
`Were you one of the technicians involved in
`testing, or did you have a separate role?
`A.
`My main role was making prototypes, but I --
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`I also did some testing.
`Q.
`And I believe when you mentioned Mr. Sutton
`and Mr. Root, I believe you said "from above." Are
`you referring to their involvement as in a supervisory
`capacity, or could you -- could you clarify what you
`mean by Sutton and Root were involved from above?
`A.
`Well they -- yeah, they were involved in
`testing or, you know, of the prototypes but, you know,
`they would be the ones that, I guess, and I don't know
`what the correct term is, but would be directing, you
`know, they were always, you know, asking where --
`where we are with that project. So I would call that
`directing, or -- or you could call it supervising.
`Q.
`Do you know what I mean if I refer to an
`"over-the-wire" version of GuideLiner?
`A.
`I'm familiar with the term, but I never
`really worked on that.
`Q.
`So the individuals that you just identified,
`Mr. Kauphusman, Mr. Welch, Mr. Sutton and Mr. Root,
`they were -- you weren't speaking about work on an
`over-the-wire version; is that correct? You were
`speaking --
`A.
`No.
`Q.
`-- about an --
`Okay.
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
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`12
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`A.
`Q.
`
`Yes. Yeah, rapid exchange.
`So -- So what --
`Okay. Thank you.
`So we're talking -- when we're talking about
`the GuideLiner project, from your perspective you're
`only talking about rapid exchange; is that -- is that
`correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`Sorry, I'm not sure that I heard an answer
`to that. Is that correct, Mr. --
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`-- Erb, --
`A.
`Yes, it is.
`Q.
`-- when we're talking about the GuideLiner
`project?
`A.
`Yes, that is correct, rapid exchange.
`Q.
`Okay. I'd like to refer to paragraph 7 of
`your declaration, still Exhibit 2122 that you should
`have in front of you.
`A.
`All right.
`Q.
`So here you're referring to ordering
`stainless steel and nitinol hypotubes for GuideLiner;
`correct?
`A.
`Q.
`
`Correct.
`And when you mention "hypotube" here, are
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
`1-800-553-1953 info@stirewalt.com
`07/25/2021 02:39:44 PM
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`IPR2020-01343
`
`Medtronic Ex-1799
`Medtronic v. Teleflex
`Page 3 of 16
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`

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`13
`you talking about stock hypotube, or hypotube that has
`not been machined; is that correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`What did VSI do with those hypotube orders
`after they received them?
`A.
`What timeframe we talking? We talking
`about, okay, that -- the purchase order...
`Q.
`Let's say we're talking about 2005.
`A.
`Okay.
`Q.
`Early 2005.
`A.
`Yeah. I believe I would have machined some
`of those to whatever -- wherever the print was at that
`time or at whatever stage we were at. Other ones
`might have been sent to Spectralytics or LSA to be --
`to be laser cut.
`Q.
`Okay. So we're talking about ordering stock
`hypotube, not machined hypotube --
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`-- that you would then machine in-house; is
`that correct?
`A.
`Correct. Correct.
`Q.
`So in paragraph 8 of your declaration,
`Exhibit 2122, you -- you're talking about what you
`call "early GuideLiner prototypes"; is that correct?
`A.
`Yes.
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
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`Q.
`So what are these early GuideLiner
`prototypes?
`A.
`Yeah, the proximal end would have been a
`hypotube that I cut down using the -- like using a
`milling machine, cut down a portion of it to make it
`more flexible and then leaving a -- a distal end that
`we could attach -- attach the polymer -- polymer end
`to it.
`Q.
`So the early GuideLiner prototype that you
`discuss in your declaration, these are prototypes for
`which you are machining hypotubes that we were just
`discussing; is that correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`Were you also responsible for making the
`distal end, or was your focus primarily machining
`hypotube for the proximal end?
`A.
`Yeah, the distal end would have been sent
`out, so, yeah, I was -- I was more responsible for the
`-- the metal part of the -- the proximal end of the
`GuideLiner.
`Q.
`I'd like to move to paragraph 11, where
`again in the first sentence of paragraph 11 you're
`referring to machining down hypotube. We've been
`discussing machining hypotube, so in paragraph 11
`you're still talking about these early GuideLiner
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`15
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`prototypes; is that correct?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`And also in paragraph 11 you're talking
`about attaching proximal and distal components; is
`that correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`Who performed that attachment work?
`A.
`I would have done --
`I would have done some of it, and then
`probably Jeff Welch.
`Q.
`Do you remember what Mr. Welch's position in
`the company was at the time?
`A.
`Yes, he was R&D director.
`Q.
`Was that different from Mr. Sutton's role at
`the time?
`A.
`Yes, he was the vice president.
`Q.
`Okay. So in paragraph 11, I just want to
`make sure I'm clear, we're talking about early
`GuideLiner prototypes for which you machined hypotube;
`correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`And you and Mr. Welch were responsible for
`the attachment work that you describe here.
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`Anyone else involved?
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
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`16
`A.
`Yes, there could have been other technicians
`involved, too, but I just -- I don't remember who they
`would be at this time.
`Q.
`Moving to paragraph 12, so are -- we're
`still talking about these same "early GuideLiner
`prototypes" in paragraph 12; is that correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`At this time we're discussing testing those
`same prototypes; is that correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`Who performed the testing that you describe
`in paragraph 12?
`A.
`I would have done some of it. We did, like,
`basic pull testing to test the integrity of the bond,
`of the polymer end to the -- the metal end, the
`proximal end. And then --
`Q.
`What's involved --
`Oh, I'm sorry.
`A.
`Okay.
`Q.
`Please complete your answer, I'm sorry, I
`didn't mean to talk over you.
`A.
`Yeah, I was going to say, and -- and the
`testing in the benchtop models.
`Q.
`Could you describe what a pull test is for
`me, what do you mean by "pull test"?
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`17
`A.
`Well since we -- since we bonded the -- the
`two dissimilar materials, we would just test the
`integrity of the bond, so we would do a pull test to
`make sure that -- that they were tightly bonded
`together so that that wouldn't come apart.
`Q.
`So I'm not an engineer, so you'll have to
`excuse me, as --
`A.
`Okay.
`Q.
`-- if I --
`A.
`Sure.
`Q.
`-- if I'm misunderstanding what a pull test
`is. So is it just -- is it really just pulling on the
`two components --
`A.
`Yes, pretty much.
`Q.
`-- to make sure that they're not coming
`apart? Okay.
`A.
`Yes, pretty much.
`And then we would have a basic -- maybe a
`basic test instrument that would give us a -- a
`number, a pound pull --
`(Interruption by the reporter.)
`A.
`I guess, yeah, like, I guess a, you know, I
`would call it, yeah, a -- a pound -- you know, a
`number the -- whatever the -- whatever the number
`would be to, you know. So, like, a comparative
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`
`18
`
`number.
`Q.
`Comparative number. What would it be
`compared to?
`A.
`To the -- To --
`To the other parts. Okay, let's say I
`tested 20 parts; so I would test 20 parts and compare
`the -- the number that I received on each -- on each
`pull test, to make sure that they were in a consistent
`range.
`Q.
`Okay. So we're talking about a number that
`maybe represents the force involved in pulling on the
`two components, is that what we're talking about?
`A.
`Yes. Correct.
`Q.
`Okay. Thank you for that clarification.
`So you -- you said that you were involved in
`some of the testing that you describe in paragraph 12,
`and you were describing the pull test. Anyone else
`involved in the testing that you describe in paragraph
`12?
`
`A.
`Yeah, I don't remember at this time.
`Q.
`So just you.
`A.
`It would have been Jeff Welch too, I do
`remember Jeff Welch.
`Q.
`And I believe you mentioned, just a moment
`ago, testing involving a model; is that correct?
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
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`19
`A.
`Yes. A heart model, benchtop model.
`Q.
`Benchtop model. So who would have been
`involved in benchtop model testing?
`A.
`I would have been a small bit, just to see,
`more for my own use, but more -- more of -- it would
`have been more of Jeff Welch and -- and Gregg Sutton,
`and Howard.
`Q.
`And by "Howard" you mean "Howard Root;" --
`A.
`Howard Root, yes, --
`Q.
`-- is that correct?
`A.
`-- correct.
`Q.
`Thanks.
`I'm sorry. Could you clarify once more,
`what was your involvement in the benchtop testing?
`A.
`I would have done that too, but more as a --
`like I said I guess just more for my own use, my own
`feeling about the parts, to see how it worked, since,
`you know, --
`Q.
`Okay.
`A.
`-- just to be involved.
`Q.
`But the primary testers were Welch, Sutton
`and Root; is that correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`And again we're still talking about those
`early prototypes for which you had machined hypotube
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`20
`
`parts; is that correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`Okay. Moving to paragraph 13, there's
`now -- in paragraph 13 you're no longer talking about
`these early GuideLiner prototypes; is that correct?
`A.
`No, I would say it'd still be some of the
`earlier ones because we kind of did concurrent
`engineering too, even though we sent parts out to
`laser cutting, I -- I would have still been machining
`parts in-house, too.
`Q.
`Okay. So now in paragraph 13 we've
`identified kind of two sets of prototypes; is that
`fair?
`
`A.
`That's fair. Sure.
`Q.
`On one end you're machining hypotube
`in-house; is that correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`And then there's also a set of prototypes
`for which VSI is -- is sending out parts to be laser
`cut; is that correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`Okay. So Mr. Erb, earlier we discussed how
`this declaration that we're talking about had
`additional information for completeness. I'm going to
`represent to you that paragraphs 14 through 18 are new
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`
`Medtronic Ex-1799
`Medtronic v. Teleflex
`Page 5 of 16
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`material compared to your first declaration. Does
`that sound right to you?
`A.
`Yes, it does.
`Q.
`Do you know why you added paragraphs 14
`through 18 to this declaration?
`A.
`I would say that we -- we added some -- some
`prints, it looks like to me, Exhibit 2113, new
`exhibits.
`Q.
`Okay. So you're discussing new exhibits in
`paragraphs 14 to 18. Do you know why you added this
`material now, and didn't include it in your first
`declaration?
`A.
`I'm sure just for completeness, for -- for,
`you know, to add more detail, to clarify.
`Q.
`Did you not remember this information when
`you drafted your first declaration for the related
`matter?
`A.
`Q.
`
`Repeat that question.
`Sure.
`Did you not remember this new material in
`paragraphs 14 to 18 when you drafted your first
`declaration?
`A.
`Well, no, unless I was shown the -- the
`engineering drawings. I'm sure it jogged my memory.
`Q.
`Okay. So you reviewed the engineering
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
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`22
`drawings that you cite here in paragraphs 14 to 18 and
`that jogged your memory? I just want to make sure I'm
`un -- I'm understanding you correctly.
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`When did you first review the engineering
`drawings that you discuss in paragraphs 14 to 18?
`A.
`It would have been when I did my declaration
`there, so. As far as I remember, okay, so that was...
`Q.
`Okay. Let's -- Let's start with paragraph
`14 here. In your packet you should have a paper copy
`of Exhibit 2113, if you could take that out, please.
`A.
`All right, I -- I have it.
`Q.
`Great.
`So do you recognize Exhibit 2113?
`A.
`I do.
`Q.
`What is Exhibit 2113?
`A.
`It's a stainless steel hypotubing that has
`been machined to certain specifications.
`Q.
`Did you create Exhibit 2113?
`A.
`I do not believe so.
`Q.
`Do you know who did?
`A.
`I would guess it was laser cut, maybe
`Spectralytics. I could only -- I could only guess, so
`my answer would be I do not -- I do not know.
`Q.
`Okay. So when you reference
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`"Spectralytics," are you talking about the part that
`is shown in 2113?
`A.
`That would have been the vendor that -- that
`would have cut it, yeah, so.
`Q.
`But do you remember who made the drawing
`that is Exhibit 2113?
`A.
`Well a -- Yeah, after looking at it, it says
`"Jim Kauphusman," so it would have been --
`Q.
`And you mentioned Mr. --
`A.
`-- Jim Ka --
`[Simultaneous speaking.]
`Q.
`Okay. And you mentioned Mr. Kauphusman
`earlier when we were discussing people who were
`working on the rapid exchange GuideLiner; is that
`correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`So earlier did you testify that you first
`reviewed a copy of this drawing when you were putting
`this declaration together; is that correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`Had you seen these engineering drawings
`before you created your declaration for these
`proceedings?
`MR. RINN: Objection, form.
`Yeah, I don't -- I don't remember if I did
`STIREWALT & ASSOCIATES
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`A.
`
`24
`
`or not.
`Q.
`Okay. Did you place any orders for the part
`that is depicted in these engineering drawings?
`MR. RINN: Objection, form.
`A.
`No, I did not.
`Q.
`Do you remember whether you worked with this
`part after VSI ordered it?
`A.
`No, I do not.
`Q.
`Sorry, I want to make sure I understand --
`understand your answer. Is it no, you do not remember
`whether you worked with the part, or no, you did not
`work with the part? Sorry, my question might have
`been inartful there.
`A.
`Okay. Yeah, I remember the part, but I do
`not remember myself personally working on it.
`Q.
`Got it. Thank you for clarifying.
`Let's move to paragraph 16, please, and in
`paragraph 16 you are discussing Exhibit 2114. You
`should have a copy in your kit, if you'd like to take
`it out, please, Mr. Erb.
`A.
`I have it.
`Q.
`So do you recognize Exhibit 2114?
`A.
`I do.
`Q.
`What is Exhibit 2114?
`A.
`It's another version of the -- the proximal
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`Medtronic Ex-1799
`Medtronic v. Teleflex
`Page 6 of 16
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`

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`25
`end of the GuideLiner, a piece of stainless steel
`hypotubing machined down.
`Q.
`Did you create the drawing in Exhibit 2114?
`A.
`I did not.
`Q.
`Do you remember who did?
`A.
`There again, it says "Jim Kauphusman."
`Q.
`Okay. So Mr. Kauphusman again.
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`And do you remember when you first saw a
`copy of these drawings in Exhibit 2114?
`A.
`Not directly. I'm -- I -- I believe I saw
`it in my first deposition -- my first declaration.
`Q.
`And then did you review these drawings again
`in preparing your second declaration for --
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`-- these proceedings?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`Do you remember seeing these drawings in
`Exhibit 2114 earlier than your first deposition?
`A.
`I do not remember.
`Q.
`Did you place any orders for the part
`depicted in Exhibit 2114?
`A.
`I did not.
`Q.
`Do you remember working with this part after
`VSI ordered it?
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`26
`A.
`Yes. I also remember actually making a part
`like this, too.
`Q.
`Okay. So I want to -- I'd like to drill
`down on that a little bit.
`A.
`Okay.
`Q.
`So in your declaration in paragraph 16, I
`believe you reference that these drawings were
`obtained from Spectralytics; is that correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`So these drawings were sent to
`Spectralytics, presumably to be -- to -- for laser
`cutting hypotube; is that correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`But just a moment ago you also mentioned
`that you were possibly creating some of these parts as
`well; is that correct?
`A.
`That's correct.
`Q.
`So do you remember working with your own
`machined hypotube, or the parts received from
`Spectralytics?
`A.
`Well, yeah, it would have been with both.
`Q.
`And when you're referring to working with
`both of these parts, what type of work are you --
`A.
`We --
`Q.
`-- talking about?
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