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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`__________________________________________________
`
`MEDTRONIC, INC., AND MEDTRONIC
`VASCULAR, INC.,
` Petitioners,
`vs.
`TELEFLEX INNOVATIONS S.A.R.L.,
` Patent Owner.
`___________________________________________________
`
`IPR2020-00126 (Patent 8,048,032 B2)
`IPR2020-00127 (Patent 8,048,032 B2)
`IPR2020-00128 (Patent RE45,380 E)
`IPR2020-00129 (Patent RE45,380 E)
`IPR2020-00130 (Patent RE45,380 E)
`IPR2020-00132 (Patent RE45,760 E)
`IPR2020-00134 (Patent RE45,760 E)
`IPR2020-00135 (Patent RE45,776 E)
`IPR2020-00136 (Patent RE45,776 E)
`IPR2020-00137 (Patent RE47,379 E)
`IPR2020-00138 (Patent RE47,379 E)
`___________________________________________________
`
` REMOTE DEPOSITION OF
`
` MICHAEL JONES
`
`DATE: September 9, 2021
`TIME: 10:05 a.m. Central Time
`PLACE: Veritext Virtual Videoconference
`
`REPORTED BY: PAULA K. RICHTER, RMR, CRR, CRC
`
`www.veritext.com
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`888-391-3376
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`Page 2
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` APPEARANCES
` (All appearances were made via videoconference.)
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONERS:
` Ms. Sharon Roberg-Perez, Esq.
` ROBINS KAPLAN, LLP
` 800 LaSalle Avenue, Suite 2800
` Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
` (612) 349-8500
` sroberg-perez@robinskaplan.com
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
` Ms. Megan E. Christner, Esq.
` Mr. Peter M. Kohlhepp, Esq.
` CARLSON, CASPERS, VANDENBURGH & LINDQUIST
` 225 South Sixth Street, Suite 4200
` Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
` (612) 436-9600
` mchristner@carlsoncaspers.com
` pkohlhepp@carlsoncaspers.com
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`
`Shelley Gilliss, Robins Kaplan, LLP
`
`Greg Smock
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`Page 3
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` INDEX
`WITNESS: MICHAEL JONES PAGE:
` EXAMINATION BY MS. CHRISTNER............... 4
` EXAMINATION BY MS. ROBERG-PEREZ............ 104
`
`EXHIBITS REFERRED TO: PAGE:
`EXHIBIT
`1001-1341 U.S. Patent 8,142,413........... 8
`
`EXHIBIT
`1001-1343 U.S. Patent RE46,116............ 8
`EXHIBIT 1007 U.S. Patent 7,736,355........... 26
`EXHIBIT 1008 U.S. Patent 7,604,612........... 59
`EXHIBIT 1042 Declaration of Richard A.
` Hillstead....................... 55
`
`EXHIBIT 1807 Declaration of Michael Jones.... 14
`
`EXHIBIT 2239 1/18/21 Deposition Transcript
` of Michael Jones, Vol. 1........ 19
`EXHIBIT 2241 1/20/21 Deposition Transcript
` of Michael Jones, Vol. 2........ 19
`
`EXHIBIT 2259 Ellipse with Radius A and B..... 62
`
`EXHIBIT 2263 Itou Device with Angled Side
` Opening and Right Triangle...... 71
`(Original exhibits attached to original transcript;
`copies provided to counsel.)
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
`
` (Counsel stipulate that the court
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`reporter can remotely swear in the witness.)
`
` MICHAEL JONES,
`
`duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MS. CHRISTNER:
`
`Q. Well, good morning, Mr. Jones. I am here
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`from Carlson Caspers on behalf of the Patent
`
`Owner. And with me I have my colleague Peter
`
`Kohlhepp and a representative from Teleflex,
`
`Greg Smock, so they're all on the line, even
`
`though you can't see them.
`
`A. Okay.
`
`Q. So before we get started --
`
` MS. ROBERG-PEREZ: Sharon
`
`Roberg-Perez on behalf of petitioner, Medtronic.
`
`With me is my colleague, Dr. Shelley Gilliss.
`
`BY MS. CHRISTNER
`
`Q. So before we get started, I know you've been
`
`deposed before, so we can kind of keep the intro
`
`part brief. But I want to go through a couple of
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`guidelines with you to make sure we're on the same
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`page for the rules to follow and to make sure we
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`make things a little easier for Paula while we're
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`talking this morning.
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`A. Okay.
`
`Q. First, and this can be harder over video, so
`
`we can do our best here, but we'll try our best to
`
`speak one at a time. So even if you think that
`
`you understand the question, I'm going to ask you,
`
`please make sure you wait until I finish the
`
`question and then I'll try to do the same while
`
`you're giving your answers.
`
` Does that sound okay?
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. And also for the court reporter's benefit, I
`
`just ask that you make sure that you give your
`
`answers verbally instead of nodding or shaking
`
`your head, and we'll both try to speak slowly and
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`clearly for the record.
`
` Is that fair?
`
`A. That sounds fair to me.
`
`Q. And as we go through questions today, if you
`
`don't understand a question that I'm asking you,
`
`please just ask me to rephrase it. I'm happy to
`
`do that. I will assume that if you do answer my
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`question, that you heard it and that you
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`understand it.
`
` Sound okay?
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`A. Yes, it does.
`
`Q. All right. And then lastly, and this is
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`probably the most important one from your
`
`perspective, but we'll be taking breaks about
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`every hour today, but if you need one or want one
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`earlier than that, just let me know. My only
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`request is that you don't ask for a break when a
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`question is pending, so just answer the question
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`and then we can take a break.
`
`A. Okay.
`
`Q. Any other questions before we get started?
`
`A. I don't believe so.
`
`Q. And is there anybody in the room with you
`
`today, Mr. Jones?
`
`A. I'm at home. My wife is running around doing
`
`her thing. There's a dog that may bark when the
`
`mailman shows up, but other than that, just me on
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`the line.
`
`Q. All right. We're fine with dogs here. That
`
`sounds good.
`
` All right. So before we kind of
`
`dive right into your declaration, I want to ask
`
`you just a few background questions just to get an
`
`understanding of how you went about preparing your
`
`declaration and preparing for the deposition.
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` So we can start with the deposition.
`
`Can you just walk me through, and I don't want to
`
`get into any conversations with your counsel, but
`
`can you just walk me through what you did to
`
`prepare for your deposition today.
`
`A. Sure. To prepare for my deposition today, I
`
`was on a conference call with Sherry and
`
`Shelley -- want to make sure I've got the days.
`
`It's a weird week -- on Tuesday to just refresh
`
`what was in the declaration since I haven't picked
`
`it up since I think early August. And same thing
`
`yesterday, going back through the declaration and
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`some of the references cited.
`
`Q. Okay. And did you speak to anyone besides
`
`your Medtronic attorneys as you were preparing?
`
`A. No.
`
`Q. Okay. So you didn't talk to any --
`
`Medtronic's other experts, so Dr. Hillstead,
`
`Dr. Brecker, Mr. Zalesky?
`
`A. No, I did not.
`
`Q. One of the things I'd like to do is get a
`
`little background on the things you considered as
`
`you actually wrote your declaration. I'll walk
`
`through some sort of specific things rather than
`
`have you list them all from your head, and then at
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`the end, you can tell me if we left anything off.
`
` Does that sound good?
`
`A. Sure.
`
`Q. So the first thing I'm going to do is
`
`introduce Exhibit 1001, one that we've labeled
`
`1001-1341, it is from the 1341 IPR, and one is
`
`1001-1343, which is from the 1343 IPR. Give me
`
`one minute to introduce them from Exhibit Share
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`even though I know you're working off paper.
`
`A. And I see on my email that I have received a
`
`password reset request now.
`
`Q. Do you want to go ahead and just take care of
`
`that now and we can take a quick break so you're
`
`already logged in so we can keep going?
`
`A. Yeah, why don't I do that.
`
` (Off the record.)
`
` THE WITNESS: Okay. I have the --
`
`it says "Marked Exhibits" folder up on there.
`
`BY MS. CHRISTNER:
`
`Q. And I don't know how recently. You may have
`
`to refresh once to see the two Exhibit 1001s. Can
`
`you see those on there?
`
`A. I'm refreshing right now. You said 100 --
`
`Q. -- 1-1341.
`
`A. No, it's not on there right now.
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` MS. CHRISTNER: Sharon, are you able
`
`to see them in your folder?
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` MS. ROBERG-PEREZ: Yes, I can.
`
` (Off the record.)
`
` THE WITNESS: Okay. I see 1001-1341
`
`and 1001-1343.
`
`BY MS. CHRISTNER:
`
`Q. And you can refer to either the ones in
`
`Exhibit Share or your paper copies. Doesn't make
`
`any difference to me. We're just introducing them
`
`for the record.
`
`A. Okay.
`
`Q. So do you recognize these exhibits?
`
`A. Yes. One is a patent by Howard Root.
`
`Another is re-exam done on August 23rd, 2016.
`
`Q. And these are the two patents that are at
`
`issue in these IPR proceedings, correct?
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. And do you understand if I refer to them just
`
`for the last three patent numbers, is that okay
`
`with you?
`
`A. That's just fine.
`
`Q. So did you review the '413 Patent in
`
`connection with preparing your declaration?
`
`A. I reviewed it, just cursorily looked through
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`the -- you know, the drawings, the abstract,
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`briefly read the first claim, and that's the same
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`for both of the patents.
`
`Q. Okay. So you also reviewed the drawings, the
`
`specification, and one claim of the '116 Patent,
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`as well?
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. Okay. Did you review the file histories of
`
`either of those two patents?
`
`A. No, I did not. I was not asked to do that.
`
`Q. And did you review any of the declarations
`
`other experts have submitted in these proceedings?
`
`A. Yes. Let me go through that.
`
`Q. If it would be helpful for you, I can kind of
`
`step through the ones I'm thinking of and you can
`
`tell me --
`
`A. You're welcome to go through those.
`
`Q. So I think Dr. Brecker submitted two
`
`declarations in connection with the petition, one
`
`for the '413 and one for the '116?
`
`A. I don't recall seeing his. I don't believe
`
`they're referenced in the -- in my declaration.
`
`Q. Okay. And then Dr. Brecker also submitted a
`
`reply declaration for the same reply that you had.
`
` Did you review that one?
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`A. Again, I don't believe I've seen that one or
`
`reviewed it.
`
`Q. And then Dr. Hillstead also submitted two
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`declarations in support of the petition, one for
`
`the '413 and one for the '116.
`
` Did you review those?
`
`A. I reviewed Dr. Hillstead's declaration, yes.
`
`Q. Okay. And then Mr. Zalesky has also
`
`submitted a couple of declarations.
`
` Did you review --
`
`A. I don't recall seeing any of Mr. Zalesky's
`
`declarations.
`
`Q. Okay. And then moving on to the Teleflex
`
`experts, Mr. Keith submitted two declarations in
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`support of the petition.
`
` Did you review those -- or I'm
`
`sorry, not in support of the petition. In support
`
`of our opposition. Did you review those?
`
`A. Yes. I reviewed Mr. Keith's declarations.
`
`Q. And then there was also a declaration from
`
`Dr. Graham.
`
` Did you review that one?
`
`A. I don't recall seeing anything from
`
`Dr. Graham.
`
`Q. And how about a Dr. Thompson?
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`A. I don't recall seeing anything from
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`Dr. Thompson either.
`
`Q. And how about Dr. Azzalini?
`
`A. I don't recall seeing anything from
`
`Dr. Azzalini.
`
`Q. And, Mr. Jones, when did you first start
`
`doing work on this set of IPR proceedings?
`
`A. This set of IPR proceedings, I think the
`
`first was in June of this year.
`
`Q. Okay. Do you recall when you started working
`
`on the previous round of IPR proceedings?
`
`A. I think it was September or October of 2020.
`
`Q. Okay. So sometime in the fall of 2020?
`
`A. Yeah. It was -- yeah, sometime in the fall.
`
`Q. Close enough for our purposes. That's
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`totally fine.
`
` So when you were retained for the
`
`very first set of IPR proceedings, did you
`
`understand that you would also be submitting a
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`declaration in these proceedings?
`
`A. No, I did not.
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`Q. And when you were retained for these
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`proceedings, did you understand that your
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`declaration would be limited to a declaration in
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`support of Medtronic's reply brief?
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`A. I don't know if I understood that very
`
`specific thing, but I -- when I was retained for
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`this, I understood it was for this IPR, so . . .
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`Q. So you were never contacted about submitting
`
`a declaration in support of Medtronic's initial
`
`petition?
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`A. I don't believe so. I don't think I was
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`involved. I came in somewhere in the middle of
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`the case, in my understanding.
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`Q. Okay. And are you aware that Dr. Hillstead
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`submitted an expert report in support of
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`Medtronic's petition?
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`A. I don't know -- I honestly don't know how to
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`answer that. I looked at his declaration. I
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`believe it's in some ways, if I -- I haven't read
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`anything other than -- that I'm aware of, other
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`than his declaration in this case and in the
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`previous IPR.
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`Q. And you did -- you said you did review that
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`declaration, so that is the declaration we're
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`talking about.
`
`A. Okay.
`
`Q. And do you have any understanding of why
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`Dr. Hillstead isn't submitting a declaration in
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`support of Medtronic's replies?
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`A. I do not.
`
`Q. Have you reviewed any deposition transcripts
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`in connection with preparing your report?
`
`A. I reviewed my deposition from January, both
`
`days.
`
`Q. And you do cite certain deposition
`
`transcripts in your report, though, correct?
`
`A. You'd have to point me to those, so I --
`
`Q. I can do that. Let me -- I'm going to
`
`introduce Exhibit 1807 into the record. That will
`
`be your report.
`
` Okay. So if you refresh your page,
`
`you should be able to see Exhibit 1807 in Exhibit
`
`Share, and it is also in your binder if you prefer
`
`to look at it that way.
`
`A. Yes, I have it. I have it open in the
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`binder.
`
`Q. And you recognize Exhibit 1807, correct?
`
`A. Yes, I do.
`
`Q. And it's your declaration in support of
`
`Medtronic's replies; is that correct?
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. And then just to confirm, you did submit just
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`one declaration in support of all four of the
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`current IPR proceedings, right?
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`A. To my knowledge, yes. The same declaration
`
`was going to be used in all four.
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`Q. Okay. If you could just turn to paragraph 84
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`for me -- I'm sorry. That's not the right
`
`paragraph. Give me one moment here.
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` Sorry about that delay here. I'm
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`going to sort of backtrack on that question for a
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`minute, and we're going to move on to something
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`else, if that's all right.
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` So we talked about deposition
`
`transcripts. It also looks like you reviewed some
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`of -- some prior art and articles as you prepared
`
`your declaration; is that right?
`
`A. That's correct.
`
`Q. Have you reviewed any that aren't identified
`
`in your declaration?
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`A. I'm sorry? You broke up there.
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`Q. That's fine.
`
` Have you reviewed any that aren't
`
`identified in your declaration?
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`A. Yeah. As part of the -- I think as part of
`
`the interaction with the attorneys, I did some of
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`my own searching, looking for references and, you
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`know, whether those -- if they weren't used, they
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`weren't referenced here, but I've looked at other
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`prior art relative to this case.
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`Q. Okay. But to the extent you're relying on
`
`that prior art, it's in your declaration?
`
`A. If it's not in my declaration, I'm not
`
`relying on it.
`
`Q. Sounds good.
`
` So if a prior patent or an article
`
`is cited in your declaration, does that mean you
`
`reviewed the full reference?
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. And would you say you studied all those
`
`references in detail or there's some references
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`that you reviewed in more detail than others?
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` MS. ROBERG-PEREZ: Objection; form,
`
`compound.
`
` THE WITNESS: Can you re-ask that
`
`question so I can make sure I answer it correctly?
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`BY MS. CHRISTNER:
`
`Q. Yep. So did you study each reference that
`
`you cited in detail?
`
`A. Yes, I did.
`
`Q. Or are there -- so there aren't some
`
`references that you reviewed in more detail than
`
`others?
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` MS. ROBERG-PEREZ: Objection; form,
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`Page 17
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`vague.
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` THE WITNESS: Would you like to --
`
`can I get you to ask that question again? Sorry.
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`BY MS. CHRISTNER:
`
`Q. So I'm just trying to confirm, are there some
`
`references that you reviewed in more detail than
`
`others?
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`A. I don't know how to answer that.
`
` Yes. The references -- this prior
`
`art references I reviewed extensively, I think is
`
`the best way to put it. The articles, the same
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`way.
`
` I'm trying to think -- I think the
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`only thing that got, I would say, not -- not
`
`extensive was the Root patents. I read those
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`briefly for content. I wasn't asked to form any
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`opinion on them.
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`Q. Is there anything else you can think of that
`
`we haven't discussed that you would have reviewed?
`
`A. No, not that I can think of.
`
`Q. So I think that pretty much covers the
`
`materials that you reviewed.
`
` Did you rely on the declaration you
`
`submitted in the previous round of IPRs when you
`
`wrote the declaration for this round of IPRs?
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`A. Yeah. It's substantially -- it's, I think,
`
`substantially the same. There are -- there are
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`minor additions. There were some, I believe,
`
`things deleted. But I would say if you look at
`
`this, some very large portion of the content is
`
`identical.
`
`Q. And so fair to say you didn't change any of
`
`the opinions you held in your last round of IPRs
`
`while you were writing the declaration for this
`
`round?
`
`A. That is a fair statement.
`
`Q. And then is it fair to say that your
`
`declaration represents your independent opinion on
`
`the issues it addresses?
`
`A. Yes, it does.
`
`Q. And is it fair to say that in some instances
`
`you would have agreed with Dr. Hillstead on the
`
`opinions that he had in his declaration?
`
`A. I would say -- I'd characterize that as I
`
`agreed with Dr. Hillstead on virtually everything.
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`We have, I think, some differences in what's
`
`important, but I didn't see -- I did not have any
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`disagreement with his -- anything in his
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`declaration.
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`Q. Okay. So did you occasionally arrive at a
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`Page 19
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`different conclusion than Dr. Hillstead had in his
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`declaration?
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`A. I'm not sure how to answer that. You have to
`
`be more specific, I think.
`
`Q. We can get into that more specifically later.
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` And then, Mr. Jones, let's just do
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`one more quick housekeeping thing here before we
`
`dive into your declaration.
`
` I think you said you looked at your
`
`prior deposition transcripts.
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`A. Uh-huh.
`
`Q. I'm going to introduce Exhibit 2239 and 2241
`
`into the record, and they're also in your binder,
`
`so you should be able to see them there, too.
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`A. Yes, they're in the binder.
`
`Q. Give me one minute to put them in Exhibit
`
`Share here. These are big ones. 2239 and there
`
`is 2241.
`
` So do you recognize what's shown in
`
`these two exhibits from your deposition
`
`transcripts from January 18?
`
`A. Yes.
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`Q. -- and January 20, 2021?
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`A. Yes. I recognize 2239 and 2241 as those
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`transcripts.
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`Q. And did you testify truthfully at your
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`depositions on those two dates?
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`A. Yes, I did.
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`Q. And you did review those deposition
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`transcripts, correct?
`
`A. Yes, I did.
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`Q. And I looked, and as far as I know, you did
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`not submit an errata with any corrections to that
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`transcript; is that correct?
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`A. That's correct.
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`Q. And so fair to say that these two deposition
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`transcripts accurately reflect your testimony in
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`the prior IPR proceedings?
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`A. That's correct.
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`Q. And that testimony accurately represents your
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`opinions, correct?
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`A. Yes, it does.
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`Q. And your opinions have not changed since
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`then, correct?
`
`A. That is correct.
`
`Q. So I think earlier when we were talking about
`
`your opinions in your declaration, you mentioned
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`that you and Dr. Hillstead had some differences in
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`terms of what was important when you came to your
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`opinions.
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` Can you tell me what some of those
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`differences were, please?
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` MS. ROBERG-PEREZ: Object to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I'd have to go -- I
`
`think the best way to go through is, do you want
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`to go through the whole Hillstead declaration?
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`Because, in general, I didn't disagree with
`
`anything that he had put in his declaration.
`
`BY MS. CHRISTNER:
`
`Q. So one example that comes to mind would be, I
`
`think, when we talk about the shape of the
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`Ressemann collar, Dr. Hillstead's declaration
`
`stated that there were two inclines, and I believe
`
`your conclusion is that there were more than two;
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`is that correct?
`
`A. Yeah. I identified -- what I identified, I
`
`interpreted it as three. With a different
`
`drawing, there might be more, but I think it was
`
`pretty easy to identify three on.
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`Q. Any other differences that you can think of
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`off the top of your head?
`
`A. No, not off the top of my head.
`
`Q. Okay. What about the design of the Kontos
`
`device modified with the collars from the various
`
`references? Is it accurate to say that you
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`Page 22
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`modified the Kontos device a little differently
`
`than Dr. Kontos did?
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` MS. ROBERG-PEREZ: Objection.
`
`Object to form.
`
` Go ahead, Mike.
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` THE WITNESS: Like I said, probably
`
`best thing to do there is -- is there a paragraph
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`in my declaration we can refer to?
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`BY MS. CHRISTNER:
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`Q. Sure, we can go through that when we get to
`
`your declaration.
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` Do you recall, generally speaking,
`
`are there differences?
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` MS. ROBERG-PEREZ: Object to form,
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`vague.
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` THE WITNESS: I don't recall. I'd
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`have to go look at -- have a specific question
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`relative to the declaration.
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`BY MS. CHRISTNER:
`
`Q. Okay. So let's go ahead and move to your
`
`declaration, so we've introduced that as
`
`Exhibit 1807.
`
`A. Okay.
`
`Q. And as we go through here, I may kind of flip
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`you back and forth between to your declaration and
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`Page 23
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`some of the references you're talking about. But
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`if you want to always keep your book handy, I'll
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`try to be clear which one I'm referring to, but
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`we'll be jumping --
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`A. The easiest for me is to keep the declaration
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`open and the paper copy, and if we need to look at
`
`an exhibit, look at it up on Exhibit Share, I
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`think.
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`Q. Okay.
`
`A. That will work best for me.
`
`Q. That sounds good.
`
` So let's go ahead and start at
`
`paragraph 28 of your declaration.
`
`A. Okay.
`
`Q. Let me know when you're there.
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`A. I'm there. Let me just review it here for a
`
`second. (Reviews document.) Okay.
`
`Q. So is it fair to say that the opinion you are
`
`discussing in this paragraph is limited to the
`
`structure of Itou's device?
`
` MS. ROBERG-PEREZ: Object to form.
`
` Mike, go ahead.
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` THE WITNESS: Okay. So can you ask
`
`that question again? I just want to make sure --
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`I'm looking back through this section of the
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`Page 24
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`declaration.
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`BY MS. CHRISTNER:
`
`Q. Yep. So paragraph 28 says, "I have been
`
`asked to opine on whether suction catheter (2) of
`
`Itou is sufficiently sized to receive a balloon or
`
`stent catheter."
`
` Is that right?
`
`A. Okay. You're saying paragraph 28?
`
`Q. Yeah. That very first sentence there.
`
`A. That is not what I have in this -- I'm sorry.
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`I've got the wrong -- excuse me.
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`Q. No problem.
`
`A. I was in the other declaration. That might
`
`help clarify things.
`
`Q. You had me worried for a minute.
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`A. I was getting really worried, so . . .
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` Okay. So let me just make sure --
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`I'm in my declaration now, not the other -- not
`
`Hillstead's.
`
` Okay. So now we're both on the same
`
`paragraph 28.
`
`Q. All right. So that very first sentence there
`
`says, "I have been asked to opine on whether
`
`suction catheter (2) of Itou is sufficiently sized
`
`to receive a stent or balloon catheter."
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` Is that right?
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`A. That is correct.
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`Q. So my question for you is: Is it fair to say
`
`that that opinion is limited to the structure of
`
`Itou's device?
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` MS. ROBERG-PEREZ: Object to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I
`
`understand -- understand your question fully,
`
`so . . .
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`BY MS. CHRISTNER:
`
`Q. So I'm just wondering, when you're giving
`
`your opinion about whether suction catheter (2) of
`
`Itou is sufficiently sized to receive the devices
`
`you have listed here, is your opinion looking at
`
`the structure of Itou's device or is it looking at
`
`how the device is --
`
`A. I'm sorry. You broke up on the very end of
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`that last sentence.
`
`Q. No problem. I can re-ask you the question.
`
` So when you're giving the opinion
`
`that you have in paragraph 28 about whether the
`
`suction catheter (2) of Itou is sufficiently sized
`
`to receive the devices you have listed here, is
`
`your opinion looking at the structure of Itou's
`
`device or is it looking at how the device is used
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`Page 26
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`in Itou?
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`A. It's looking at the structure outlined in the
`
`Itou patent.
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`Q. And did you consider how the device disclosed
`
`in Itou was used when you arrived at your opinion,
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`or did you strictly limit your opinion to the
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`structure?
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`A. I considered -- I did consider how it's used.
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`I'm not a doctor, so I don't make the decisions on
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`how something is specifically going to be used.
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` But as an engineer, I considered the
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`required functions to assemble it and then to
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`disassemble it in Itou.
`
`Q. And let's go ahead and introduce Itou's, so
`
`we're actually looking at something. So I'm going
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`to introduce Exhibit 1007. That one is also in
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`your binder. So if you refresh your Exhibit
`
`Share, Exhibit 1007 should be there if that's the
`
`way you prefer to look at it.
`
`A. Okay.
`
`Q. And I'm just going to ask you -- you don't
`
`need to look at any particular part of 1007 right
`
`now, but if you'd like to refer to it, you're free
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`to.
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` So Itou teaches that protective
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`Page 27
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`catheter 5 is inserted into suction catheter (2)
`
`outside the body; is that correct?
`
`A. Yes, it is.
`
`Q. And then those two, the protective catheter 5
`
`and the suction catheter (2) are advanced through
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`the guide catheter, correct?
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`A. I believe that's what it says in getting down
`
`to the body. But my recollection is that's a fair
`
`reconstruction of what they specified.
`
`Q. And then once the suction catheter is inside
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`the body, does Itou teach inserting anything
`
`through the suction catheter in a proximal to
`
`distal direction?
`
`A. No, it does not.
`
`Q. And so Itou does not teach inserting a
`
`balloon catheter or stent into the suction
`
`catheter (2), correct?
`
`A. No, it does not.
`
`Q. So in your declaration, going back to
`
`Exhibit 1807, did you have an opinion about
`
`whether a person of ordinary skill in the art
`
`would be motivated to put a balloon or stent
`
`catheter through Itou's suction catheter?
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`A. Can you say that again?
`
`Q. Yep. Do you have an opinion about whether a
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`Page 28
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`person of ordinary skill in the art would be
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`motivated to put a balloon or a stent catheter
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`through Itou's suction catheter?
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`A. I wasn't asked to make an opinion on that,
`
`so . . .
`
`Q. Okay. And then if we could turn to
`
`paragraph 35, I just have one question on that
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`paragraph for you.
`
`A. Okay. Let me just review it, please.
`
`Q. No problem.
`
`A. (Reviews document.)
`
` Okay. I've reviewed it. Your
`
`question, please?
`
`Q. So in the second-to-last sentence, it says,
`
`"A change in diameter of pushrod 25 is not
`
`unsurprising."
`
` Is that right?
`
`A. That's what it says, yes.
`
`Q. And if we rephrase that sentence to get rid
`
`of the double negative, is it your opinion that a
`
`change in diameter of the pushrod 25 is
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`surprising?
`
`A. Can you restate -- can you restate that?
`
`Q. Yeah.
`
`A. I'm a visual person, so audio definitely
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`Page 29
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`throws me for a loop. But go ahead.
`
`Q. I 100 percent understand. I like writing
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`too.
`
` So your sentence says, "A change in
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`diameter of pushrod 25 is not unsurprising."
`
`A. That is correct. That is what the
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`declaration says.
`
`Q. Okay. And so I'm just -- this "not
`
`unsurprising," are you saying it is surprising?
`
`A. No. It is not -- changes in diameter of that
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`pushrod is not a surprising result, or a
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`surprising design intent.
`
`Q. Okay. Let's go to paragraph 52, please.
`
`A. Okay. Let me just review it, please.
`
`Q. No problem.
`
`A. (Reviews document.)
`
` Okay. All righty.
`
`Q. So I'm looking at the second sentence in that
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`paragraph which says, "Itou discloses that its
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`guiding catheter 1 includes an inner layer 110
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`made of a resin material having a sliding property
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`such as fluorocarbon resin represented by PTFE."
`
` Is that right?
`
`A. Yes, it is.
`
`Q. And you cite the Itou reference, which is
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`Ex

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