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`·1· · · · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· · ----------------------------------------x
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`·4· · INTEL CORPORATION,
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
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`·6· · · · · ·-against-
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`·7· · PARKERVISION, INC.,
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
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`·9· · ----------------------------------------x
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`10· · · · · · · ·Inter Partes Review No. IPR2020-01265
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent No. 7,110,444
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`13· · · · · · · ·VIDEOTAPED STENOGRAPHIC DEPOSITION OF:
`· · · · · · · · · · · · VIVEK SUBRAMANIAN, Ph.D.
`14· · · · · · · · · · ·Friday, September 10, 2021
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·2:04 p.m. - 10:55 p.m.
`15· · · · · · ·Reported Remotely through Videoconference
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`22· · · · · · · · · ·Reported stenographically by:
`· · · · · · · · · ·Richard Germosen, CA CSR No. 14391
`23· · · · · · ·RDR, CRR, CCR, CRCR, CSR-CA, NYACR, NYRCR
`· · · · · · · ·NCRA/NJ/NY/CA Certified Realtime Reporter
`24· · · · · · · · NCRA Realtime Systems Administrator
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · Job No. 10088077
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`·1· · · · · · · ·VIDEOTAPED TELECONFERENCED STENOGRAPHIC
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`·2· · · · DEPOSITION of VIVEK SUBRAMANIAN, Ph.D., taken in the
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`·3· · · · above-entitled matter before RICHARD GERMOSEN, Certified
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`·4· · · · Court Reporter, (License No. 30XI00184700), Certified
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`·5· · · · Realtime Court Reporter-NJ, (License No. 30XR00016800),
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`·6· · · · California Certified Shorthand Reporter, (License No.
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`·7· · · · 14391), NCRA/NY/CA Certified Realtime Reporter, NCRA
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`·8· · · · Registered Diplomate Reporter, New York Association
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`·9· · · · Certified Reporter, NCRA Realtime Systems Administrator,
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`10· · · · taken via remote video teleconference on Friday,
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`11· · · · September 10, 2021, commencing at 2:04 p.m.
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`·1· · · · A P P E A R A N C E S:
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`·2
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`·3
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`·4· · · · WILMER HALE LLP
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`·5· · · · BY:· TODD C. ZUBLER, ESQ.
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`·6· · · · · · ·-and-
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`·7· · · · BY:· GRANT K. ROWAN, ESQ.
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`·8· · · · · · ·-and-
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`·9· · · · BY:· BRIAN J. LAMBSON, Ph.D., ESQ.
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`10· · · · · · ·-and-
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`11· · · · BY:· HAIXIA LIN, ESQ.
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`12· · · · 1875 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.
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`13· · · · Washington, D.C. 20006
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`14· · · · (202) 663.6000
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`15· · · · todd.zubler@wilmerhale.com
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`16· · · · grant.rowan@wilmerhale.com
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`17· · · · brian.lambson@wilmerhale.com
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`18· · · · haixia.lin@wilmerhale.com
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`19· · · · Attorneys for the Petitioner
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`·1· · · · A P P E A R A N C E S:· (CONT'D.)
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`·2
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`·4· · · · DAIGNAULT IYER LLP
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`·5· · · · BY:· KEVIN SPRENGER, ESQ.
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`·6· · · · · · ·-and-
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`·7· · · · BY:· RICHARD JUANG, ESQ.
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`·8· · · · 8618 Westwood Center Drive
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`·9· · · · Suite 150
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`10· · · · Vienna, Virginia 22182
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`11· · · · (614) 208.5321
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`12· · · · ksprenger@daignaultiyer.com
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`13· · · · rjuang@daignaultiyer.com
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`14· · · · Attorneys for the Patent Owner
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`15
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`16· · · · ALSO PRESENT:
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`17· · · · ONAJE FERGUSON, Legal Video Specialist
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`18· · · · MICHAEL STEER, Cyan Blue Group
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X
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`·2· · · · WITNESS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
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`·3· · · · VIVEK SUBRAMANIAN, Ph.D.
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`·4· · · · · BY MR. SPRENGER· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 9
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`·5· · · · · BY MR. ZUBLER· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 213
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`·6· · · · · BY MR. SPRENGER· · · · · · · · · · · · · · 219
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`·7
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · E X H I B I T S
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`10· · · · EXHIBIT NO.· · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`11· · · · Exhibit 24· · ·Patent Owner's Notice of· · · · 12
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`12· · · · · · · · · · · ·Deposition of Vivek
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · ·Subramanian, Ph.D.
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`14
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`15· · · · Exhibit 2022· ·Energy Calculations for· · · · ·25
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`16· · · · · · · · · · · ·Subramanian Deposition
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`17
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`18· · · · Exhibit 1002· ·Vivek Subramanian, Ph.D.· · · · 93
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`19· · · · · · · · · · · ·Expert Report
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`20
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`21· · · · Exhibit 1001· ·'444 patent· · · · · · · · · · 114
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`22
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`23· · · · Exhibit 1004· ·Tayloe '000 patent· · · · · · ·130
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · E X H I B I T S· (CONT'D.)
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`·2· · · · EXHIBIT NO.· · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·3· · · · Exhibit 1030· ·document entitled Reply· · · · 152
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · · ·Declaration of Vivek
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · ·Subramanian, Ph.D.
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`·6
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`·7· · · · Exhibit 2023· ·Dr. Subramanian lecture· · · · 167
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·slides
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`·9
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`10· · · · Exhibit 2027· ·741 data sheet 1997· · · · · · 177
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`11
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`12· · · · Exhibit 2026· ·set of calculations· · · · · · 186
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`15· · · · DIRECTION TO WITNESS NOT TO ANSWER
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`16· · · · · · · · · · · · 15· · 6
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`·1· · · · --------------------------------------------------
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·P R O C E E D I N G S
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·2:04 p.m.
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`·4· · · · --------------------------------------------------
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Stand by, please.
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · ·We are now on the record.· Today's
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`·7· · · · date is September 10, 2021, and the time is 2:04
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`·8· · · · p.m.
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · ·This is the remote video-recorded
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`10· · · · deposition of Vivek Subramanian via Zoom video
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`11· · · · conference being taken in the matter of Intel
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`12· · · · Corporation versus ParkerVision, Incorporated.
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · ·My name is Onaje Ferguson appearing
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`14· · · · for Aptus Court Reporting.· I'm the official
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`15· · · · videographer for this deposition, and this recording
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`16· · · · is the only authorized video recording of this
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`17· · · · deposition.· Any other video recording of this
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`18· · · · deposition is unauthorized.· The audio and video
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`19· · · · recording will take place at all times unless all
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`20· · · · counsel agree to go off the record.
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`21· · · · · · · · · · · ·Will counsel please identify
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`22· · · · yourselves and state whom you represent.
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`23· · · · · · · · · · · ·MR. SPRENGER:· Yes.· Kevin Sprenger
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`24· · · · of Daignault & Iyer LLP representing ParkerVision.
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`25· · · · I'm joined by my co-counsel, Richard Juang, who will
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`·1· · · · be observing, and I believe Michael Steer is also
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`·2· · · · observing.
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · · ·MR. ZUBLER:· This is Todd Zubler from
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`·4· · · · the law firm of Wilmer Hale representing Intel
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`·5· · · · Corporation and the witness, Dr. Subramanian.· I'm
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`·6· · · · joined today by my colleagues, Grant Rowan, Haixia
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`·7· · · · Lin, and Brian Lambson.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· The court reporter
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`·9· · · · may now swear in or affirm the deponent.
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`10· · · · · · · · · · · ·CERTIFIED STENOGRAPHER:· Good
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`11· · · · morning.· My name is Rich Germosen.· I am a
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`12· · · · certified stenographic reporter.· My license is
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`13· · · · available for inspection.
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · ·Do all parties stipulate to the
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`15· · · · validity of this remote swearing and that it will be
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`16· · · · admissible in the courtroom as if it had been taken
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`17· · · · following Rule 30 of the Federal Rules of Civil
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`18· · · · Procedure and the state's rules where this case is
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`19· · · · pending?
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`20· · · · · · · · · · · ·MR. SPRENGER:· Yes.
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`21· · · · · · · · · · · ·MR. ZUBLER:· This is Todd Zubler,
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`22· · · · yes.
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`23· · · · · · · · · · · ·MR. SPRENGER:· Okay?
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`24· · · · · · · · · · · ·CERTIFIED STENOGRAPHER:· Yes.
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`25· · · · · · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, the Certified Realtime
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`·1· · · · Stenographer administered the oath to the witness.)
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`·2
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`·3· · · · V I V E K· ·S U B R A M A N I A N,· ·Ph.D.,
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`·4· · · · having been first duly sworn or affirmed, was
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`·5· · · · examined and testified as follows:
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`·6· · · · EXAMINATION BY MR. SPRENGER:
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`·7· · · · BY MR. SPRENGER:
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`·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · So good morning, Dr. Subramanian.
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`·9· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Good morning to you.· It's afternoon
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`10· · · · here.
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`11· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Oh.· Good afternoon.· That's right.
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`12· · · · Thank you for joining us today for this deposition.
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · ·Have you given a remote deposition
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`14· · · · before?
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`15· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Yes.
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`16· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· So just to refresh you on
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`17· · · · logistics, if I present an exhibit, you'll receive
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`18· · · · an exhibit link or I will share my screen with you
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`19· · · · so that you can view the exhibit, and that's how it
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`20· · · · will work.· Does that sound okay?
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`21· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Yes, that's fine.· For some of the
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`22· · · · exhibits, it's likely that I have a clean PDF.· If
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`23· · · · it is okay with you, would it be okay if I opened
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`24· · · · the clean PDF simultaneously to you sending me the
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`25· · · · link just so it's easier for me to flip back and
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`·1· · · · forth between pages?
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`·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · That would be okay if it's -- you
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`·3· · · · know, if it's the exact exhibit that I'm referring
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`·4· · · · to and at the time that I'm referring to it.· So
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`·5· · · · until then, I would request that you, you know,
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`·6· · · · clear away any documents that are in front of you or
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`·7· · · · on your computer or anything like that until --
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`·8· · · · · · · ·A.· · · I understand.· I understand and I've
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`·9· · · · done that.
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`10· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· All right.
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · ·So throughout this deposition, I'll
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`12· · · · ask you a series of questions.· Your attorney might
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`13· · · · object, but unless the attorney specifically
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`14· · · · instructs you not to answer, you must answer my
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`15· · · · questions.· Is that -- do you understand that?
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`16· · · · · · · ·A.· · · I understand that.
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`17· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· At this time do you have any
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`18· · · · documents open in front of you either digitally or
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`19· · · · physically?
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`20· · · · · · · ·A.· · · No, I do not.
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`21· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Do you have any laptops, phones, or
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`22· · · · tablets in front of you or other devices being -- or
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`23· · · · devices other than the device being used for this
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`24· · · · deposition?
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`25· · · · · · · ·A.· · · I have the computer that is being
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`·1· · · · used for this deposition.· There are two monitors
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`·2· · · · associated with it.· One is a monitor I'm looking at
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`·3· · · · right now, which has a camera above it, and it will
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`·4· · · · show me only what's on the Zoom window.· I have a
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`·5· · · · second monitor to my right, which right now is
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`·6· · · · blank.· It's a desktop.· If and when you allow me to
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`·7· · · · open particular documents, I will open them up as a
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`·8· · · · PDF.· I have a directory with certain documents
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`·9· · · · associated with this matter in a single directory,
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`10· · · · but nothing else in that directory, and I can open
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`11· · · · them up and they will be visible here, and you'll
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`12· · · · know that I'm looking at them because I will be
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`13· · · · looking this way.
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`14· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· I appreciate that.
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · ·So just to recap, on your computer
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`16· · · · device at this time, do you have any windows open in
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`17· · · · front of you other than this Zoom conference?
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`18· · · · · · · ·A.· · · No, I do not.
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`19· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· You understand that unless I
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`20· · · · put a document into evidence, you're not to consult
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`21· · · · it or review it before I reference it during your
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`22· · · · deposition?
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`23· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Yes, I understand that.
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`24· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· Great.· Okay.
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`25· · · · · · · · · · · ·So I'm sending you a document marked
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`·1· · · · Paper, Paper 24.· Paper 24.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Patent Owner's Notice of
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`·3· · · · Deposition of Vivek Subramanian, Ph.D., is received
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`·4· · · · and marked as Exhibit 24 for Identification.)
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · ·MR. SPRENGER:· Could we send him
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`·6· · · · that?· Hang on one second.
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`·7· · · · BY MR. SPRENGER:
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`·8· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · So you can go ahead and open that up.
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`·9· · · · So Paper 24 is patent owner's notice of deposition
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`10· · · · of Dr. Vivek Subramanian that we've submitted in
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`11· · · · this case.
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`12· · · · · · · · · · · ·Have you seen this document before?
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`13· · · · · · · ·A.· · · A second.· I'm still opening it up.
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`14· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Sure.
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`15· · · · · · · ·A.· · · I apologize.· My Adobe acrobat is not
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`16· · · · working.· Could you give me a minute to get this
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`17· · · · fixed?· I don't know if you want to go off the
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`18· · · · record for a minute to do it or you can open it up
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`19· · · · on the screen.
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`20· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.
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`21· · · · · · · · · · · ·MR. SPRENGER:· We can go off the
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`22· · · · record for a second.
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`23· · · · · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.· I apologize.
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`24· · · · · · · · · · · ·MR. SPRENGER:· There might be other
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`25· · · · exhibits that --
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's fine.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· The time is
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`·3· · · · 2:12 p.m., and we are off the record.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, a recess is taken.)
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Stand by, please.
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · ·The time is 2:13 p.m., and we're back
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`·7· · · · on the record.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · ·MR. SPRENGER:· Okay.
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · ·And, Mr. Germosen, it might be useful
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`10· · · · for the court reporter to show it at the same time,
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`11· · · · the exhibit, if that's okay.
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`12· · · · · · · · · · · ·CERTIFIED STENOGRAPHER:· You meant
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`13· · · · Mr. Ferguson?· The videographer?
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · ·MR. SPRENGER:· Yes, I apologize, yep.
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`15· · · · BY MR. SPRENGER:
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`16· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · So, Dr. Subramanian, have you seen
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`17· · · · this document before?
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`18· · · · · · · ·A.· · · I don't think so.
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`19· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· So again, once again this is
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`20· · · · the patent owner's notice of deposition of Dr. Vivek
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`21· · · · Subramanian that we submitted in this case.· Do you
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`22· · · · understand that you're here today to testify on
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`23· · · · behalf of Intel Corporation as an expert in IPR
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`24· · · · number 2020-01265?
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`25· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Yes.
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`·1· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Are you aware that -- that the IPR by
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`·2· · · · this number relates to U.S. Patent number 7110444?
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`·3· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Yes.
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`·4· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · You also understand that you're here
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`·5· · · · to testify with regard to declarations you submitted
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`·6· · · · with regard to the '444 patent?
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`·7· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Yes, depending on the scope, but
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`·8· · · · really I'll be answering your questions.
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`·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· So to recap, you understand
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`10· · · · that you're here to testify today on behalf of Intel
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`11· · · · Corporation with regards to your expert opinion with
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`12· · · · regard to this IPR and the '444 patent?
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`13· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Yes.
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`14· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · In preparation for this deposition,
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`15· · · · did you consult or work with anyone?
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`16· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Yes.
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`17· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Who were those people?
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`18· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Counsel for Intel, and I think all
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`19· · · · the people that I worked with are what are named by
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`20· · · · Mr. Zubler at the start of this proceeding.
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`21· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· Did you consult any documents
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`22· · · · in preparation for your testimony today?
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`23· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Yes.
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`24· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Which documents did you consult?
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`25· · · · · · · · · · · ·MR. ZUBLER:· I would instruct the
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`·1· · · · witness not to answer.· The selection of documents
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`·2· · · · is protected by work product in deposition
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`·3· · · · preparation.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · · ·(Direction not to answer the
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`·5· · · · question.)
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`·6· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · So moving to your background,
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`·7· · · · Dr. Subramanian, could you tell us a little bit
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`·8· · · · about your background?
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`·9· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Sure.
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`10· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Your academic -- to be clear your
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`11· · · · professional background.
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`12· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Sure.· I am an electrical engineer by
`
`13· · · · training.· I received my bachelor's degree in
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`14· · · · electrical engineering from Louisiana State
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`15· · · · University in Baton Rouge, Louisiana in 1994. I
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`16· · · · received my master's degree in electrical
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`17· · · · engineering from Stanford University in Stanford,
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`18· · · · California in 1996, and I received my Ph.D. degree
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`19· · · · in electrical engineering also from Stanford
`
`20· · · · University in 1998.
`
`21· · · · · · · · · · · ·Around that time, actually in late
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`22· · · · 1997 through early 1998, I co-founded a company
`
`23· · · · named Matrix Semiconductor.· Matrix Semiconductor
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`24· · · · went on to be acquired by Rambus -- sorry, went on
`
`25· · · · to be acquired by SanDisk, which then went on to be
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`·1· · · · acquired by Western Digital.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · ·In 1998, upon completing my Ph.D., I
`
`·3· · · · had multiple jobs simultaneously.· Firstly, as I
`
`·4· · · · said, I was a founder and member of technical staff
`
`·5· · · · at Matrix.· In addition, I was a visiting research
`
`·6· · · · engineer at the University of California, Berkeley,
`
`·7· · · · where I worked on high performance logic systems
`
`·8· · · · and --
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Excuse me, Dr. Subramanian, what work
`
`10· · · · did you do at Matrix?
`
`11· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Oh, at Matrix, I -- well, I led
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`12· · · · various aspects of the technology development, but
`
`13· · · · fundamentally, my main focus areas were on the
`
`14· · · · development of the underlying memory technology and
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`15· · · · to a lesser degree on the development of the memory
`
`16· · · · controller associated therewith.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.
`
`18· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Okay.· So then continuing in -- as I
`
`19· · · · said, in 1998, upon completion of my Ph.D., I held
`
`20· · · · multiple jobs simultaneously.· One job was, of
`
`21· · · · course, at Matrix.· The second job was, I was a
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`22· · · · visiting research engineer at the University of
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`23· · · · California in Berkeley where I worked on high
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`24· · · · performance logic and transistor technology.
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`25· · · · · · · · · · · ·A visiting research engineer is
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`·1· · · · essentially -- it's a glorified postdoctoral
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`·2· · · · position.· It pays better than a postdoc position,
`
`·3· · · · but the job is pretty similar to a postdoc.· And
`
`·4· · · · then I was a consulting assistant professor at
`
`·5· · · · Stanford University where I guided students and did
`
`·6· · · · some of my own research related to highly-integrated
`
`·7· · · · electronic systems, particularly focusing on
`
`·8· · · · three-dimensional integration of the same.· So I
`
`·9· · · · held all three jobs between 1998 and 2000.
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · · ·In 2000, I was offered a tenure track
`
`11· · · · professor position at the University of California,
`
`12· · · · Berkeley.· So I moved to Berkeley at that time. I
`
`13· · · · continued to serve as a consultant to Matrix, but I
`
`14· · · · terminated my consulting assistant professor
`
`15· · · · position at Stanford at that time.· So from 2000,
`
`16· · · · until about -- I guess it was about 2005, I was a
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`17· · · · consultant to Matrix, and my primary employment was
`
`18· · · · as a professor of electrical engineering.· I started
`
`19· · · · out as an assistant professor.· Was then promoted to
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`20· · · · be an associate professor.· That happened in 2005.
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`21· · · · Was then promoted to being a full professor, which
`
`22· · · · happened in 2000, and I stayed in that role until
`
`23· · · · 2020.
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`24· · · · · · · · · · · ·Along the way I also received a
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`25· · · · chancellor's professorship, which is sort of an
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`·1· · · · award within the University of California, Berkeley.
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`·2· · · · And so that -- so basically, my primary employment
`
`·3· · · · between 2000 and 2020 was as a professor at
`
`·4· · · · Berkeley.
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · ·Along the way, I did have other side
`
`·6· · · · employments, including taking some leave of absence
`
`·7· · · · from Berkeley to work on startups that I started or
`
`·8· · · · that I helped friends with.
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · ·So among those startups, the three
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`10· · · · that I took significant time on, beyond just being a
`
`11· · · · simple consultant, the first was I was a -- what was
`
`12· · · · called a founding technical advisor to a company
`
`13· · · · called Kovio, K-o-v-i-o.· Kovio was acquired by a
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`14· · · · company called Thin Film Electronics, and so my
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`15· · · · relationship with Kovio ended upon that acquisition.
`
`16· · · · I don't remember the exact year, but it must have
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`17· · · · been 2015 or 2016, something like that.
`
`18· · · · · · · · · · · ·Kovio developed radio frequency
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`19· · · · identification tags, and I led that development
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`20· · · · effort.· I was responsible for pivoting Kovio to
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`21· · · · working on RFID, and that was Kovio's main product.
`
`22· · · · · · · · · · · ·The second company that I spent
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`23· · · · significant time on beyond just being a consultant
`
`24· · · · was a company called Quswami, Q-u-s-w-a-m-i. I
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`25· · · · served as the CTO for a period of a little over a
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`·1· · · · year.· Quswami worked on a novel energy conversion
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`·2· · · · device to convert chemical energy into electrical
`
`·3· · · · energy.· Quswami still exists as far as I know, but
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`·4· · · · once I helped get the company founded and moving, I
`
`·5· · · · moved on from there.· I mean, I still maintain some
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`·6· · · · relationship with them, but it's just casual.
`
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · ·Then the third company that I
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`·8· · · · co-founded and I'm still active in is a company that
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`·9· · · · is now called Locix, L-o-c-i-x.· Locix makes a range
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`10· · · · of wireless sensor products and they are deployed
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`11· · · · around the world.· The primary market is for
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`12· · · · warehouse and factory automation.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Thank you, Dr. Subramanian.
`
`14· · · · · · · ·A.· · · I apologize.· So that brought me to
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`15· · · · 2020.· I'm not quite done or you have questions up
`
`16· · · · to 2020?
`
`17· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · I think we're good for now.
`
`18· · · · · · · · · · · ·Referring back to your academic
`
`19· · · · training, you mentioned -- I believe you mentioned
`
`20· · · · that you received your bachelor's of science degree
`
`21· · · · in 1994; is that right?
`
`22· · · · · · · ·A.· · · That's correct.
`
`23· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · How much of your academic training up
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`24· · · · until 1994 was focused on radio frequency and analog
`
`25· · · · circuitry?
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`·1· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Probably -- so my core focus as an
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`·2· · · · undergraduate, so that means through 1994, was
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`·3· · · · actually on analog circuit design.· So I would say
`
`·4· · · · in terms of the course work, probably more than half
`
`·5· · · · of my courses were in analog and radio frequency
`
`·6· · · · circuit design.· Though as I moved towards my Ph.D.,
`
`·7· · · · I got interested more at the lower level of
`
`·8· · · · semiconductors.· And so I started transitioning
`
`·9· · · · later on to taking more courses in semiconductors,
`
`10· · · · but, in fact, my focus from my undergraduate was on
`
`11· · · · analog circuit design.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· And for your master's degree,
`
`13· · · · what was your thesis?
`
`14· · · · · · · ·A.· · · I did not have a master's thesis.· At
`
`15· · · · Stanford, there is no thesis requirement for the
`
`16· · · · master's degree in electrical engineering.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· So for your master's degree,
`
`18· · · · you took a lot of semiconductors course work for
`
`19· · · · that?
`
`20· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Not just semiconductor course work.
`
`21· · · · I still maintained active work on analog and RF
`
`22· · · · design, because as you saw from the companies that I
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`23· · · · started, that's something that I've maintained
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`24· · · · continuous involvement in.· So I took multiple
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`25· · · · courses involving, you know, multiple designs and
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`·1· · · · also doing multiple projects at the master's level
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`·2· · · · and the Ph.D. level on analog and RF design.· In
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`·3· · · · fact, I actually took more courses on analog and RF
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`·4· · · · design than I did on semiconductors it turns out.
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · During your master's studies?
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·A.· · · During my master's and my Ph.D., yes.
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· Did you have a thesis for your
`
`·8· · · · Ph.D.?
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·A.· · · I did.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · What was your thesis?
`
`11· · · · · · · ·A.· · · My thesis was on -- largely speaking
`
`12· · · · on what I will call large area electronic systems,
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`13· · · · which is systems that are used in things like
`
`14· · · · displays, some types of sensors, and it turns out
`
`15· · · · RFID.· So when I mentioned I was involved in
`
`16· · · · pivoting that company to RFID, that was the basis
`
`17· · · · for it.
`
`18· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Wasn't your research between 1994 and
`
`19· · · · 1999 primarily focused on semiconductor fabrication
`
`20· · · · and processing, for example, 25-millimeter MOSFET
`
`21· · · · design?
`
`22· · · · · · · ·A.· · · That was actually not part of my
`
`23· · · · Ph.D.· That was that postdoc that I mentioned, the
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`24· · · · visiting research engineer position.
`
`25· · · · · · · · · · · ·My Ph.D. was focused on large area
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`·1· · · · electronics and -- but it is true that the major
`
`·2· · · · part of that focus was on fabrication technology,
`
`·3· · · · but it started all the way from basic materials and
`
`·4· · · · went up to systems.· So I made complete systems,
`
`·5· · · · including some memory systems, some displays, and I
`
`·6· · · · did not make any RFIDs as part of my Ph.D., but then
`
`·7· · · · when I worked with Kovio, we actually made RFIDs
`
`·8· · · · that became real products, and it was based on work
`
`·9· · · · that I did as a Ph.D. student.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · So could you clarify what you mean by
`
`11· · · · large area electronic systems?
`
`12· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Sure.· Large area electronic systems
`
`13· · · · as I use the term was referring to systems that are
`
`14· · · · physically over larger areas.· So commonly they
`
`15· · · · would be thin film electronic systems that might be
`
`16· · · · built on glass or plastic or stainless steel.
`
`17· · · · · · · · · · · ·The work I did as a Ph.D. student was
`
`18· · · · almost exclusively focused on systems that were
`
`19· · · · built on glass.· Though, as I mentioned, when we
`
`20· · · · took the technology and we deployed it as Kovio for
`
`21· · · · making RFID, we did it on stainless steel.
`
`22· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Isn't that more so fabrication than
`
`23· · · · processing focused than RF circuit design?
`
`24· · · · · · · ·A.· · · For my Ph.D., absolutely.· I think
`
`25· · · · that would be fair, but then when we took it and
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`·1· · · · deployed it into real products, I actually liked the
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`·2· · · · RF design aspects of it.· So it turns out one of the
`
`·3· · · · challenges of building RF systems out of these large
`
`·4· · · · area electronic components is the design issues are
`
`·5· · · · different.· So you have to sort of rethink how you
`
`·6· · · · do the design.
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· Roughly how big was the
`
`·8· · · · development team for these large area electronics
`
`·9· · · · that you were developing?· My understanding of what
`
`10· · · · you said is that large area electronics combined RF
`
`11· · · · and the semiconductor processing aspects.· So how
`
`12· · · · big was your team for this and -- yeah, how big was
`
`13· · · · your team for this?
`
`14· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Okay.· I see that the question is
`
`15· · · · related to the work at Kovio because you're asking
`
`16· · · · about what became the RF product, the first --
`
`17· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · No.· I'm referring to -- I believe
`
`18· · · · you said that during the 1994 and 1999, that you
`
`19· · · · were involved with large area electronics; is that
`
`20· · · · correct?
`
`21· · · · · · · ·A.· · · That's true, but I also said that in
`
`22· · · · that time, I did not make the RF products.· We used
`
`23· · · · that research to drive the RF development at Kovio,
`
`24· · · · which came later.
`
`25· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · I see.· Okay.
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`·1· · · · · · · ·A.· · · So between 1994 and 1998, which is
`
`·2· · · · when I did my Ph.D., I did not, as part of the work
`
`·3· · · · on large area electronics, use it to build any RF or
`
`·4· · · · wireless systems.· I only used it for some displays
`
`·5· · · · and some sensors, but I did, as I told you earlier,
`
`·6· · · · take -- the majority of my courses and
`
`·7· · · · course-related projects were, in fact, on RF and
`
`·8· · · · analog systems.
`
`·9· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· So given that, do you consider
`
`10· · · · yourself to be an expert in RF circuit design?
`
`11· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Sure.· It's something that I've spent
`
`12· · · · a lot of time on.· I've personally designed many RF
`
`13· · · · systems and, you know, empirically, I've made
`
`14· · · · products that are now used around the world, and I
`
`15· · · · led the development on significant fractions of
`
`16· · · · those.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Do you also consider yourself to be
`
`18· · · · an expert in semiconductor fabrication?
`
`19· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Yes.
`
`20· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Do you consider yourself more of an
`
`21· · · · expert in semiconductor fabrication than RF
`
`22· · · · circuitry?
`
`23· · · · · · · · · · · ·MR. ZUBLER:· Objection to form.
`
`24· · · · · · · ·A.· · · I don't know how to answer that. I
`
`25· · · · mean, it depends on how I'm trying to qualify the
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`·1· · · · relative strength.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · ·If I were to sit and talk in terms of
`
`·3· · · · industrial impact, I would say no.· The industrial
`
`·4· · · · impact I had in wireless and RF is certainly bigger
`
`·5· · · · than the industrial impact I've had in semiconductor
`
`·6· · · · technology, because I started companies that have
`
`·7· · · · gone on to be successful making wireless products,
`
`·8· · · · but if you're talking about, for example, the number
`
`·9· · · · of publications in academia, then yes, I will say
`
`10· · · · that's true, because I sort of made this distinction
`
`11· · · · in my life where I don't work on the same things in
`
`12· · · · industry as I work on in academia so I don't put my
`
`13· · · · students at risk of conflict of interest, and it's
`
`14· · · · certainly true that if you look at my publications,
`
`15· · · · more of them have been in fabrication than on RF.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · So as an expert in RF circuit design,
`
`17· · · · are you able to calculate the amount of energy
`
`18· · · · that's stored in a capacitor?
`
`19· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Provided enough information, yes.
`
`20· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· So I'm sending you an exhibit
`
`21· · · · marked 2022.
`
`22· · · · · · · · · · · ·(Whereupon, Energy Calculations for
`
`23· · · · Subramanian Deposition, is received and marked as
`
`24· · · · Exhibit 2022 for Identification.)
`
`25
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`·1· · · · BY MR. SPRENGER:
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`·2· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · And this exhibit is marked energy
`
`·3· · · · calc -- or excuse me.· Exhibit 2022 entitled:
`
`·4· · · · Energy Calculations for Subramanian Deposition.· The
`
`·5· · · · exhibit contains some hypothetical formulas and
`
`·6· · · · statements.· And I would like for you to -- I'd like
`
`·7· · · · for us to go through slide by slide, and I will ask
`
`·8· · · · you some questions about whether you agree or
`
`·9· · · · disagree with the statements and content of the
`
`10· · · · slides.
`
`11· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Okay.· I have it.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · Okay.· So starting with slide one,
`
`13· · · · please review the slide, and let me know when you've
`
`14· · · · completed.
`
`15· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Again, I don't know if you want to
`
`16· · · · put it on the screen as well or do you want me to
`
`17· · · · just review?
`
`18· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · We can -- perhaps we can share the
`
`19· · · · screen.· Yeah.
`
`20· · · · · · · ·A.· · · Okay.
`
`21· · · · · · · ·Q.· · · So do you agree that the formula for
`
`22· · · · s
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