Planet Depos
`
`We Make It Happen”
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar,
`Ph.D.
`(Volume 3)
`Date: September 10, 2021
`Case: PEAG LLC, et al -~ VARTA Microbattery GMBH. (PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email:: transcripts@planetdepos,com
`www.planetdepos.com
`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`Exh. 1042, p. 1
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
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`
`
`We Make It Happen”
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar,
`Ph.D.
`(Volume 3)
`Date: September 10, 2021
`Case: PEAG LLC, et al -~ VARTA Microbattery GMBH. (PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email:: transcripts@planetdepos,com
`www.planetdepos.com
`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`Exh. 1042, p. 1
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
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`
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`PEAG LLC (d/b/a JLab Audio), AUDIO PARTNERSHIP LLC
`and AUDIO PARTNERSHIP PLC (d/b/a Cambridge Audio),
`
`Petitioner,
`
`VARTA MICROBATTERY GMBH,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`Case IPR2020-01211
`USP 9,496,581
`
`Case IPR2020-01212
`USP 9,153,835
`
`Case IPR2020-01213
`USP 9,799,858
`
`Case IPR2020-01214
`USP 9,799,913
`
`VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF MARTIN C. PECKERAR, PH.D.
`
`VOLUME 3
`
`Reported by: Monique Vouthouris, CCR, RPR, CRR JLab/Cambridge,
`
`Conducted Virtually
`
`Friday, September 10, 2021
`
`8:56 a.m. EDT
`
`Job No.:
`
`395274
`
`Pages: 351
`
`445
`
`-
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`JLab/Cambridge
`
`Exh. 1042, p. 2
`Varta, 2020-01212
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`v.
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` 20
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`21
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`22
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`
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`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`352
`
`REMOTE VIDEOTAPED deposition of MARTIN Cc.
`
`PECKERAR, PH.D., pursuant
`
`to notice, before Monique
`
`Vouthouris, CCR, RPR, CRR, Notary Public in and for
`
`the States of New Jersey and New York.
`
`
`
`PLANET DEPOS
`
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`
`Exh. 1042, p. 3
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
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`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`353
`
` ARANCES
`
`ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER PEAG LLC,
`
`AUDIO PARTNERSHIP LLC and AUDIO PARTNERSHIP PLC:
`
`BAKER BOTTS LLP
`
`BY:
`
`NICK PALMIERI, ESQ.
`
`PAUL A. RAGUSA, ESQ.
`
`30 Rockefeller Plaza
`
`New York, New York
`
`10112
`
`212.408.2500
`
`
`
`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER,
`
`VARTA MICROBATTERY GMBH:
`
`LEYDIG VOIT & MAYER, LTD.
`
`BY: WESLEY O. MUELLER, ESQ.
`
`ROBERT T. WITTMANN, ESQ.
`
`Two Prudential Plaza
`
`180 N. Stetson Avenue, Suite 4900
`
`Chicago, Illinois
`
`60601
`
`312.616.5600
`
`
`
`PLANET DEPOS
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`
`Exh. 1042, p. 4
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
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`
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`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`354
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`
`JEAN-LOUIS ZIESCH, Planet Depos Videographer
`
`
`SARAH LOILER, Planet Depos Technician
`
`
`
`PLANET DEPOS
`
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`
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`
`Exh. 1042, p.5
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
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`
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`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`355
`
`CONT]
`
`EXAMINATION OF MARTIN C. PECKERAR, PH.D.
`
`Mr. Palmieri
`
`By
`
`By Mr. Mueller
`
`EXHIBITS
`
`(Attached to
`
`transcript.)
`
`DEPOSITION EXHIBIT
`
`Exhibit 1005
`
`U.S. Patent Application
`
`Pub. No. US 2005/0233212,
`
`Kaun.
`
`Exhibit 1039
`
`Publication of Unexamined
`
`Patent Application (A), Kannou.
`
`Exhibit 1040
`
`U.S. Patent Application,
`
`Pub. No. US 2007/0218356,
`
`Kawamura.
`
` Exhibit 2050
`
`Supplemental Declaration of
`
`888.433.3767
`
`|
`
`WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exh. 1042, p. 6
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
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`Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. PLANET DEPOS
`
`
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`
`
`
`
`
`356
`
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the beginning of
`
`
`
`Media Number 1, Volume Number 3 of the continuation of
`
`the videotaped deposition of Dr. Martin Peckerar,
`
`in
`
`the matter of PEAG LLC, et al.,
`
`versus VARTA
`
`Microbattery,
`
`et al.,
`
`in the U.S. Patent and Trademark
`
`Office, Case Number
`
`
`
`IPR
`
`2020-01211,
`
`-12,
`
`-13, and 14.
`
`Today's date is Friday, September the 10th,
`
`2021.
`
`The time on the video monitor is 8:56 a.m.
`
`Eastern Standard Time.
`
`The certified videographer
`
`today is Jean-Louis Ziesch representing Planet Depos.
`
`This video deposition is taking place remotely.
`
`Would counsel please identify yourself and
`
`state whom you represent.
`
`MR. PALMIERI:
`
`On behalf of the petitioners
`
`PEAG LLC, Audio Partnership LLC and Audio Partnership
`
`PLC, my name is Nick Palmieri, with Baker Botts. Here
`
`08:
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`11
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`
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`with me is Paul Ragusa, also with Baker Botts.
`
`
`MR. MUELLER: This is Wes Mueller from
`
`Leydig Voit
`
`& Mayer in Chicago,
`
`on behalf of the
`
`patent
`
`owner VARTA
`
`Microbattery GmbH.
`
`PLANET DEPOS
`
`888.433.3767
`
`|
`
`WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exh. 1042, p. 7
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
`
`
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`357
`
`
`
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER:
`
`The court reporter today
`
`is Monique Vouthouris representing Planet Depos.
`
`
`
`O08:
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`:16
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`Would the court reporter please
`
`swear in the witness.
`
`08:
`
`57
`
`:20
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`MARTIN C. PECKERAR, PH.D.,
`
`being first duly
`
`sworn or affirmed by the Notary,
`
`testifies as follows:
`
`EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. PALMIERI:
`
`QO
`
`Good morning, Dr. Peckerar.
`
`How are you
`
`doing today?
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`Doing well. Hopefully you are,
`
`too.
`
`So before we
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`:06
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`
`
`two declarations in this case so far.
`
`Is that
`
`correct?
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`Yes,
`
`there are two transcripts here.
`
`Well,
`
`so the transcripts
`
`I believe are
`
`
`referring to previous depositions. But for the IPRs
`
`at issue, you prepared two expert declarations?
`
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`get started,
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`I just wanted to
`
`ask is there anyone else in the room with you right
`
`now?
`
`A
`
`QO
`
`Yes. Mr. Mueller and Mr. Wittmann.
`
`So as a
`
`preliminary matter, you've prepared
`
`
`
`PLANET DEPOS
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`
`Exh. 1042, p. 8
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`358
`
`A
`
`QO
`
`Yes.
`
`Just for ease of reference, I'll refer to
`
`your most recent declaration as either your
`
`supplemental declaration or your declaration since
`==
`
`that's the primary topic of this
`
`this deposition.
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`Yes.
`
`If I refer to the first declaration at all,
`
`I'll refer to it as your original declaration.
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`Yes.
`
`And you prepared this supplemental
`
`declaration on behalf of the patent
`
`owner VARTA.
`
`Is
`
`that correct?
`
`O08:
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`A
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`QO
`
`That's correct.
`
`--
`
`And you
`
`did you prepare the entire
`
`supplemental declaration?
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`Yes.
`
`Did you have any assistance in preparing
`
`this declaration?
`
`A
`
`Well,
`
`I didn't type it up or
`
`put it in
`
`format.
`
`I
`
`supplied all the technical content,
`
`outlined the figures and even modified the figures
`
`with color, yeah.
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`PLANET DEPOS
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`888.433.3767
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`|
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`WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exh. 1042, p.9
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`359
`
`And so
`
`--
`
`who provided this assistance to
`
`A
`
`Well,
`
`that was done by Leydig.
`
`They have a
`
`drafting office.
`
`Q
`
`But you prepared the substantive content of
`
`each section. That's correct?
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`Yes.
`
`And in
`
`preparing this declaration, did you
`
`review any particular materials?
`
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`A
`
`Yes, of course, and those are listed in one
`
`09:
`
`00
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`:09
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`of the sections of my
`
`of my supplemental report.
`
`--
`
`==
`
`O09:
`
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`:12
`
`00:
`
`1‘
`
`
`
`Q
`
`And if
`
`if we could bring
`
`onto the screen,
`
`I circulated a copy of the supplemental declaration.
`
`And on pages 1 and 2 of that declaration, you list the
`
`materials that you considered?
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`Yes, Section III.
`
`Section III,
`
`that's right. And did you
`
`review any other materials not listed in that section?
`
`A
`
`Those are the materials that I spent most
`--
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`09:
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`time on and they're
`
`THE TECHNICIAN: Mr. Palmieri, would you
`
`like this marked as an exhibit?
`
`
`
`PLANET DEPOS
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`888.433.3767
`
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`
`WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exh. 1042, p. 10
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`360
`
`MR. PALMIERI: Yes. Could you mark it as
`
`
`Exhibit 2050.
`
`It should already be physically marked
`
`in the copy, but...
`
`(Exhibit 2050, Supplemental Declaration of
`
`Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D., marked for identification.)
`
`Q
`
`Okay. And so if you used any reference or
`--
`
`reviewed any
`
`any materials for this declaration
`
`--
`
`for
`
`in any substantive manner,
`
`they will be listed
`
`in that Section III.
`
`Is that correct?
`
`Yes. Yes.
`
`A
`
`QO
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`09:
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`And before we go on, are there any errors or
`
`09:
`
`1:34
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`corrections that you're
`
`aware of in your supplemental
`
`declaration that you would like to resolve?
`
`O09:
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`:38
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`09:
`
`1:42
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`
`
`A
`
`I have none.
`
`I don't
`
`--
`
`it is possible that
`
`I missed a
`
`typo
`
`or two.
`
`
`
`I would apologize for that.
`
`
`
` 02
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`245
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`1:50
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`1:59
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`So you were
`
`previously deposed
`
`on June 2nd
`
`Is that correct?
`
`I believe that was the case.
`
`Did you review those deposition transcripts?
`
`Yes.
`
`Did you review them in anticipation for
`
`today's deposition
`
`or did you just generally review
`
`PLANET DEPOS
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`
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`Exh. 1042, p. 11
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
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`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`361
`
`Just generally reviewed them.
`
`All
`
`right. Did you discuss your deposition
`
`with anyone?
`
`After the deposition
`==
`
`And that was
`
`was
`
`given, yes,
`
`I did.
`
`with whom did you discuss?
`
`With Leydig counsel,
`
`to some extent.
`
`Did you discuss with anyone else?
`
`No.
`
`You did not discuss with anyone at VARTA
`
`directly.
`
`Is that correct?
`
`A
`
`No. Well,
`
`I met with
`
`--
`
`with VARTA
`
`--
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`09:
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`personnel. Not
`
`in
`
`conjunction with these
`
`with
`
`these records and proceedings.
`--
`
`Q
`
`So you didn't
`
`you did not
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`
`
`09:
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`02
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`252
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`--
`
`just to
`
`clarify, you did not discuss your deposition
`
`transcript with any VARTA personnel?
`
`A
`
`QO
`
`No.
`
`And did you discuss whether any of your
`
`previous testimony
`
`in those depositions
`
`was
`
`contrary
`
`to any of VARTA's positions?
`
`A
`
`No.
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`
`Exh. 1042, p. 12
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
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`
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`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`362
`
`Q
`
`Since your previous deposition, have you
`
`been deposed in any other matters?
`
`A
`
`@)
`
`No.
`
`And have you done anything to prepare for
`
`today's deposition specifically?
`
`09:
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`03
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`:18
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`2:23
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`:36
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`A
`
`Well,
`
`number of times, and I
`
`I
`
`looked
`
`I read over my supplemental report
`--
`-—-
`
`a
`
`O09:
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`03:
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`37
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`O09:
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`42
`
`looked at the
`
`materials that were referenced therein. That would be
`
`09:
`
`03:
`
`51
`
`the extent of my preparation.
`
`Q
`
`So in addition to the supplemental
`--
`
`declaration, you reviewed other
`
`other relevant
`
`O09:
`
`03:
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`57
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`:00
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`09:
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`materials that might have been cited therein?
`
`A
`
`Well,
`
`the supplemental
`
`included a number
`
`--
`
`of
`
`of references that were not
`
`in the original
`
`deposition.
`
`But I believe those were all pretty
`
`well-documented and listed in the supplemental.
`--
`
`preparation for today,
`
`to any materials that are
`
`outside of your supplemental declaration?
`
`No.
`
`Okay. And did you prepare with anyone?
`
`
`
` Most of the work that I did, of course,
`
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`Exh. 1042, p. 13
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`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
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`09:
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`:44
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`
`
`Q
`
`But you didn't
`
`you didn't refer,
`
`in
`
`
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`363
`
`--
`
`was
`
`was my own
`
`reading and review of all
`
`the supplemental and the cited materials in
`
`I did have some conversation
`
`supplemental.
`
`with Leydig.
`
`Q
`
`And do you know when you met with VARTA's
`
`counsel?
`
`A
`
`I would have to go back to my hours log.
`
`don't have that with me.
`
`QO
`
`Do you have an
`
`approximate period of time
`
`that you met with them?
`
`A
`
`Well, yeah,
`
`I would
`
`--
`
`well, certainly
`
`between
`
`==
`
`09:
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`04
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`:48
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`19
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`09:
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`O5:
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`20
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`O09:
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`05:
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`25
`
`between the deposition in June and today
`
`there have been a
`
`couple of conversations, yeah.
`
`QO
`
`But
`
`in preparation specifically for this
`
`deposition have you met with them?
`
`A
`
`Well,
`
`I certainly met with them before this
`
`deposition and we discussed issues relating to it.
`--
`
`how many times you've
`
`met with them,
`
`a
`
`just
`
`rough
`
`idea?
`
`A
`
`I would say maybe three or four times.
`
`As
`
`I
`
`said, I'd have to look at my hours log.
`
`I'm not sure.
`
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`Exh. 1042, p. 14
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`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
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`09:
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`05:
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`28
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`31
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`49
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`O09:
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`05:
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`49
`
`09:
`
`06:
`
`03
`
`
`
`Q
`
`Okay. And do you know about how
`
`at least
`
`
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`364
`
`I don't believe that this was
`
`part of the
`
`--
`
`of the
`
`materials considered section.
`
`Q
`
`So in terms of your supplemental
`--
`
`declaration
`
`yeah, supplemental declaration itself,
`
`I'd like to turn to what is marked as page 7 of
`
`09:
`
`06:
`
`08
`
`O09:
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`06:
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`10
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`09:
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`06:
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`15
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`09:
`
`06:
`
`20
`
`O09:
`
`06:
`
`23
`
`Exhibit 2050, and that begins Section 5.A.1.
`--
`
`In this
`
`09:
`
`06:
`
`31
`
`section you discuss
`
`you discuss dendrite growth.
`
`Is that correct?
`
`Yes.
`
`Do you recall that?
`
`Yes. Yes.
`
`So can you describe in your words how
`
`O09:
`
`06:
`
`4l
`
`09:
`
`06:
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`49
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`O09:
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`06:
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`49
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`09:
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`06:
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`49
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`09:
`
`06:
`
`50
`
`09:
`
`06:
`
`52
`
`55
`
`dendrites form?
`
`A
`
`okay.
`
`terminal plates of a
`
`battery.
`
`Just about any battery,
`
`by the way. And in the case of a lithium battery,
`
`the
`
`problem is that lithium intercalates into the cathode;
`
`in other words, it inserts itself into little passages
`
`--
`
`in the
`
`in the storage material that constitute the
`--
`
`cathode. And sometimes that
`
`that insertion process
`
`lags the arrival rate of the
`
`--
`
`of various ions,
`
`like
`
`PLANET DEPOS
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`
`Exh. 1042, p. 15
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
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`09:
`
`06:
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`O09:
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`57
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`:01
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`232
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`09:
`
`07
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`:40
`
`
`
`Yes, okay. Dendrites are little trees,
`--
`
`They shoot up from
`
`from the negative
`
`
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`365
`
`a lithium ion. And as a
`
`result,
`
`a tree grows up
`
`09:
`
`07
`
`:46
`
`because the material beneath it can't absorb it.
`
`It's
`
`O09:
`
`07
`
`250
`
`a lot like macular degeneration, but we won't get into
`
`that.
`
`--
`
`the
`
`==
`
`The
`
`and so there are two
`
`requisites for
`
`for the tree-forming site.
`
`The region in which
`
`the tree grows has to be particularly attractive to
`
`the ion in solution, and that ion has to be
`
`incident
`
`--
`
`what we call a
`
`--
`
`it's called a
`
`nucleating
`
`site, and the tree will grow up from the nucleating
`
`site, which is triggered by
`
`a reduction in free energy
`
`09:
`
`07
`
`255
`
`O09:
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`08
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`:00
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`08
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`09:
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`08
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`:07
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`13
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`09:
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`08
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`:19
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`08
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`2:26
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`09:
`
`08
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`:30
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`09:
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`08
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`237
`
`:40
`
`of the ion itself. And so you get these tree=-like
`
`structures shooting up.
`
`Would you like some more? Let me also say,
`
`I mean,
`
`in secondary cells, dendrite formation is a
`
`major problem in just about every cell that you can
`
`imagine.
`
`I did a lot of work in trying to develop
`
`rechargeable zinc batteries. We had a hell of a time
`
`with dendrites in rechargeable zinc.
`
`Q
`
`So following up on
`
`that,
`
`can you describe
`
`--
`
`and maybe I just missed this a little
`
`--
`
`where the
`
`dendrite formation begins
`
`at.
`
`So we have
`
`-=—
`
`and,
`
`
`
`O09:
`
`08
`
`09:
`
`08
`
`2:45
`
`O09:
`
`08
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`:46
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`09:
`
`08
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`:50
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`
`08
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`258
`
`09:
`
`09:
`
`O01
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`09:
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`09:
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`05
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`10
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`09:
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`09:
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`15
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`24
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`
`
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`
`Exh. 1042, p. 16
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`366
`
`actually,
`
`let me
`
`clarify that a little more.
`
`So let's
`
`say we have an electrode layer and a
`
`separator layer
`
`and a second electrode layer.
`
`Can you describe where
`
`in that configuration the dendrite formation would
`
`begin?
`
`MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
`
`A
`
`Well, let's see here. Okay.
`
`It will form
`
`in what we call nucleating sites,
`
`areas where the ion
`
`motion is impeded and is more
`--
`
`that
`
`likely to plate, and
`
`and there could be secondary considerations as
`--
`
`well.
`
`I mean, let's suppose that
`
`of course, all of
`
`09:
`
`09:
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`28
`
`O09:
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`09:
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`32
`
`09:
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`09:
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`36
`
`09:
`
`09:
`
`42
`
`O09:
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`245
`
`09:
`
`745
`
`O09:
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`:53
`
`09:
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`:05
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`O09:
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`:11
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`09:1]
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`222
`
`09:
`
`2:25
`
`:30
`
`
`
`the separated materials that we discuss are either
`
`woven, meaning that they have fibers across one
`
`another which leave pores,
`
`the nucleation might
`
`occur
`
`within a pore, and it might be assisted by
`
`a kind of
`
`scaffolding that a
`
`separator represents. And that
`
`will be true in other ionic separators,
`
`like Nafion or
`
`other materials as well.
`
`So,
`
`so does that answer your question, if
`
`you'd like?
`
`QO
`
`A
`
`That helps.
`
`I have some
`
`follow-ups
`
`on it.
`
`Okay.
`
`09:
`
`09:
`
`:36
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`O09:
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`245
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`09:
`
`09:
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`O09:
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`09:1]
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`:50
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`253
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`759
`
`:01
`
`:09
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`:10
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`212
`
`
`
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`
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`
`Exh. 1042, p. 17
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
`
`
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`367
`
`Q
`
`So can
`
`--
`
`can these nucleating sites be
`
`found on the electrode layers
`
`as
`
`opposed
`
`to the
`
`separator materials?
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`Yeah,
`
`they
`
`can
`
`pretty well
`
`form anywhere,
`
`And so is the separator material usually
`
`chosen to reduce dendrite formation?
`
`MR. MUELLER:
`
`Objection
`
`to form.
`
`A
`
`Well, you do what you can to get rid of the
`
`dendrites, okay.
`
`You use surface treatments, you
`
`choose the separator materials.
`
`In the barer areas,
`
`I
`
`09:
`
`1:13
`
`
`
`:18
`
`O09:
`
`09:1
`
`:21
`
`09:
`
`
`1:22
`
`09:
`
`1:25
`
`09:
`
`1:27
`
`O09:
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`232
`
`09:
`
`1:36
`
`O09:
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`:40
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`09:1]
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`245
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`09:
`
`1:49
`
`257
`
`
`
`O09:
`
`09:
`
`O09:
`
`09:1
`
`O09:
`
`09:1
`
`O09:
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`O09:
`
`09:
`
`O09:
`
`09:1
`
`:01
`
`:05
`
`:11
`
`:14
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`:19
`
`:20
`
`:26
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`232
`
`:37
`
`239
`
`
`
`
`poetic.
`
`We use
`
`to avoid mounding, and the
`
`brightener additives to plating mast
`--
`
`and so there were a
`
`number of approaches that you would use to eliminate
`
`dendrite formation.
`
`Q
`
`So I want
`
`to look at a
`
`specific example and
`
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`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
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`mean,
`
`that was
`
`relatively easy to address because in
`--
`
`the barer areas you generally
`
`see
`
`see structures
`
`forming which we call mounds. Maybe I'm getting ahead
`
`of my report, but you have to remember I
`
`taught this
`
`stuff for a
`
`long time so
`
`you'll
`
`excuse me for waxing
`
`
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`368
`
`so this will be the Kaun reference, which you discuss
`
`09:
`
`:42
`
`throughout your report.
`
`It's Exhibit 1041 in these
`
`O09:
`
`:49
`
`IPRs. We can
`
`stay
`
`on the same Exhibit 2050 as well,
`
`that's all right.
`
`So, Dr. Peckerar,
`
`in Kaun we have a
`
`specific
`
`example of a
`
`spiral wound electrode assembly, with a
`
`separator located in between the electrode layers.
`
`Is
`
`that correct?
`
`A
`
`Yes.
`
`MR. MUELLER:
`
`Objection
`
`to form.
`
`QO
`
`And one of the topics of discussion for that
`
`09:1
`
`:54
`
`09:1
`
`:00
`
`O09:
`
`:02
`
`09:
`
`:09
`
`O09:
`
`:13
`
`09:
`
`:18
`
`O09:
`
`:18
`
`09:1
`
`:19
`
`09:
`
`2:22
`
`reference is the formation of gaps between the
`
`separator materials.
`
`Do you recall that?
`
`MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
`
`A
`
`@)
`
`Yes,
`
`
`
` I recall that discussion.
`
`And so
`
`--
`
`bringing
`
`bringing the dendrites
`
`back in, would dendrites form in the electrode
`
`assembly of Kaun?
`
`MR. MUELLER: Objection
`
`to form.
`
`A
`
`As
`
`
`
` I
`
`just testified, dendrites can form
`
`wherever. Nucleating sites develop and nucleating
`
`sites can
`
`develop pretty much anywhere.
`
`
`
`
`
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`Exh. 1042, p. 19
`JLab/Cambridge,
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`:33
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`O09:
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`09:
`
`O09:
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`09:1
`
`O09:
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`09:1
`
`O09:
`
`O09:
`
`09:
`
`O09:
`
`09:1
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`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`369
`
`Q
`
`So the nucleating sites could form on the
`
`electrode layers of Kaun?
`
`MR. MUELLER:
`
`Objection
`
`to form.
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`And in the separators
`
`as well. Anywhere.
`
`So could they form in the gap between the
`
`separator layers?
`
`MR. MUELLER: Objection
`
`to form.
`
`09:
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`:07
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`O09:
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`:10
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`09:1
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`09:
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`A
`
`As
`
`
`
` I said,
`
`I do have a section on this in my
`
`
`09:
`
`232
`
`supplemental report, but let me say yes,
`
`they could
`
`form in those regions.
`
`QO
`
`And if they form in the gap regions, would
`
`O09:
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`:36
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`09:1
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`:40
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`09:
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`2:45
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`
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`What would inhibit their growth would be the
`--
`
`rate of arrival of the
`
`of the ion that constitutes
`
`the dendrite, and
`
`--
`
`and what that arrival rate is
`
`depends
`
`on a number of things. And I wouldn't say
`
`that there's any reason to believe that that arrival
`
`rate or the density of nucleating sites would be
`
`different in either the gap or in the region
`--
`
`over
`
`the
`
`beneath the separator.
`
`In fact, as I mentioned earlier,
`
`there's
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`there be anything to inhibit their growth?
`
`
`MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
`
`A
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`
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`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`370
`
`reason to believe that the separator might
`
`serve as a
`
`scaffolding that support the growth of the tree.
`--
`
`Q
`
`So does the separator then form to
`
`apologies,
`
`let me
`
`rephrase that.
`
`Does the separator then act to inhibit the
`
`growth of dendrites so that they cannot
`
`form a
`
`connection between the electrode layers?
`
`MR. MUELLER:
`
`Objection
`
`to form.
`
`There's no reason to believe that.
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`So it's your testimony that the separator
`--
`
`does not inhibit
`
`09:
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`233
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`09:
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`:08
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`amount of literature on this.
`
`I believe we've
`
`included some of that in our
`
`--
`
`
`I've included that in
`
`my report and
`
`--
`
`but as I said, you can
`
`get little
`
`trees forming anywhere.
`
`Q
`
`And so you have another section here, and
`
`it's on pages 8 to 9 of Exhibit 2050,
`
`that describes
`
`the use of a
`
`polyvinylidene fluoride, also known as
`
`Kynar,
`
`that's described in the Kaun reference.
`
`A
`
`Right.
`
`
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`A
`
`It could actually
`--
`
`it up, but you'd have to
`
`<=
`
`it could actually speed
`
`there's a tremendous
`
`
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`371
`
`Q
`
`Can you
`
`--
`
`can you describe what this Kynar
`
`is doing? And apologies if I'm saying that wrong.
`
`I'm
`
`happy to take a corrected pronunciation
`
`if you
`
`have it.
`
`A
`
`Yeah, no, it is Kynar.
`
`I believe he
`
`pronounces his name Kaun.
`
`--
`
`If
`
`course there's a
`
`if the butt joint is too large, of
`--
`
`danger that you could
`
`there are
`
`certain deleterious effects that could occur, but
`
`--
`
`and so if you're worried about that, according
`
`to
`
`Kaun, you can
`
`put Kynar, which is a
`
`resin,
`
`an
`
`09:
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`259
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`O09:
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`09:1
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`09:1
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`:1l1
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`O09:
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`:12
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`09:
`
`215
`
`O09:
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`:21
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`09:
`
`2:29
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`O09:
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`:33
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`09:1
`
`:37
`
`09:
`
`2:42
`
`O09:
`
`:47
`
`
`
`insulating resin, and solve the problem.
`
`Q
`
`And this Kynar would prevent dendrite
`
`formation?
`
`A
`
`I think that that
`
`--
`
`
`
`I don't
`
`-=-
`
`that
`
`certainly wouldn't eliminate the dendrite problem,
`--
`
`But it
`
`it would prevent
`
`no.
`
`
`the formation of other
`
`types of deleterious effects, and I believe that was
`
`the main issue.
`
`Q
`
`So you've noted a
`
`couple times the
`
`--
`
`the
`
`effects that can be caused from a gap forming. Could
`
`you describe some of those deleterious effects?
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`Exh. 1042, p. 23
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`v.
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`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`372
`
`A
`
`Obviously you've got
`
`a
`
`separator, right, and
`
`on
`
`top of and on bottom under the active electrodes.
`
`And if you've got this huge gap, when you squeeze
`
`things together, you short the electrodes out.
`==
`
`Also, we make a
`
`big deal
`
`okay. We make a
`
`big deal about particle sizes, okay. We choose the
`
`particle sizes to be large enough in the active
`--
`
`material so that
`
`just large enough
`
`so that they
`
`won't penetrate the separator material themselves and
`
`also they wouldn't fall into any
`
`--
`
`to create shorts
`
`in themselves.
`
`--
`
`So we
`
`so we
`
`--
`
`as a matter of fact,
`
`in
`
`one of my companies
`
`we had a very expensive particle
`
`size sorter and we would choose specific particle
`
`sizes that wouldn't crash through the separator and at
`
`the same token wouldn't fill up the pores of the
`
`materials that we were
`
`using.
`
`They would be
`
`-=-
`
`they
`
`wouldn't be too small,
`
`they wouldn't be too big;
`
`they'd be just right. But these are all the
`
`considerations that go into battery manufacturing.
`
`So those are some of the issues;
`
`there will
`
`be shorting
`
`out of the layer and what all, which I
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`373
`
`think would be rare, even in Kaun's case.
`
`Or
`
`the
`
`particles which would pierce the layer for
`
`well,
`
`--
`
`those are the main issues,
`--
`
`so that would outline.
`
`going back to this Kynar
`
`@)
`
`And so
`
`so
`
`material, if we assume that it's being used as an
`
`adhesive to fill that gap, what differentiates it from
`
`the separator material?
`
`MR. MUELLER:
`
`Objection
`
`to form.
`
`A
`
`Well, Kynar is non-conductive resin.
`
`Now,
`
`the separator materials
`
`--
`
`as I've testified
`
`
`
`09:
`
`20
`
`:21
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`O09:
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`20
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`:26
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`09:
`
`20
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`:35
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`O09:
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`20
`
`:39
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`O09:
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`20
`
`:44
`
`O09:
`
`20
`
`749
`
`O09:
`
`20
`
`:55
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`09:
`
`20
`
`256
`
`O09:
`
`20
`
`:57
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`09:
`
`1:19
`
`09:
`
`1:24
`
`
`
`Q
`
`A
`
`A
`
`QO
`
`Small amount.
`
`(Court Reporter clarification.)
`
`Not a lot, small amount.
`
`So the Kynar doesn't facilitate ionic
`
`conduction the way that the separator material does?
`
`09:
`
`1:27
`
`09:
`
`1:31
`
` 22
`
`238
`
`1:42
`
`750
`
`1:50
`
`:O1
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`:01
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`:04
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`22
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`O09:
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`09:
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`O09:
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`09:
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`:04
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`09:
`
`22:
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`10
`
`previously,
`
`the separator materials are
`
`highly
`
`engineered
`
`structures and they're aimed at
`
`passing
`
`ions of a certain type.
`
`Now, clearly the Kynar isn't
`
`an
`
`engineered material that was
`
`designed
`
`to do that.
`
`So it might
`
`lead to some effective area reduction of
`
`the battery plate. Not a lot.
`==
`
`So the
`
`
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`Exh. 1042, p. 24
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`374
`
`A
`
`QO
`
`No.
`
`So you have to have some sort of separator
`
`material in there in order for the battery to
`
`function?
`
`MR. MUELLER: Objection
`
`to form.
`
`A
`
`Well,
`
`I mean, Kaun cites that as one
`
`09:
`
`22
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`:14
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`2:23
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`O09:
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`2:23
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`09:
`
`22
`
`:27
`
`possible remedy to some
`
`imagined problem.
`
`He didn't
`
`O09:
`
`22
`
`:34
`
`specifically cite the problem that he was
`
`addressing
`
`here, but it was
`
`just something he threw over the
`
`wall.
`
`QO
`
`Okay.
`
`So now
`
`moving
`
`on into Section 5Bl,
`
`==
`
`09:
`
`22
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`09:
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`32
`
`I got it.
`
`Page 9 of the
`
`--
`
`on the PDF.
`
`Okay. Yeah,
`
`
`
` I
`
`got it in my documents.
`
`Okay, yeah.
`
`Sorry for the delay.
`
`Q
`
`No problem at all.
`
`So this section
`
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`Exh. 1042, p. 25
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`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
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`
`
`which begins
`
`on page 12 of Exhibit 2050,
`
`this
`
`this
`
`section discusses the central fastener of Kaun.
`
`
`
`that correct?
`
`Excuse me, what was the page?
`
`Sorry.
`
`So it's page 12 of 43 on the
`
`A
`
`@)
`
`exhibit.
`
`
`
`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`375
`
`discusses the central fastener of Kaun.
`
`
`
`correct?
`
`A
`
`QO
`
`Yes.
`
`And you reproduce
`
`on the next page,
`
`you reproduce
`
`a number of figures from Kaun.
`
`see those?
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`Yes.
`
`If we're looking only at
`
`Figure 7A,
`
`central fastener shown in that figure?
`
`A
`
`QO
`
`No.
`
`And then moving
`==
`
`on to Figure 7C, do
`
`09:
`
`23
`
`235
`
`O09:
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`23
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`241
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`09:
`
`23:
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`41
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`O09:
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`23:
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`46
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`O09:
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`23
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`09:
`
`23:
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`56
`
`O09:
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`23:
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`57
`
`09:
`
`24
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`:00
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`O09:
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`24
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`:07
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`09:
`
`24:
`
`10
`
`09:
`
`24
`
`:14
`
`09:
`
`24
`
`:20
`
`
`
`And if we could move into Kaun itself, and
`--
`
`that's Exhibit
`
`apologies,
`
`I don't remember
`
`the
`
`exact exhibit number for Kaun.
`
`Sorry,
`
`just
`
`one
`
`second.
`
`So Kaun is Exhibit 1005 of these IPR
`
`proceedings.
`
`A
`
`Yes.
`
`MR. PALMIERI: And, Sarah, could we
`
`bring
`
`09:
`
`24
`
`:24
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`2:25
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`2:33
`
`09:
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`:41
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`756
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`25:
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`09:
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`09:
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`25:
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`
`figures show
`
`does Figure 7C show a central
`
`fastener?
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`Yes and yes.
`
`
`
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`Exh. 1042, p. 26
`JLab/Cambridge,
`v.
`Varta, 2020-01212
`JLab/Cambridge
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`
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 3)
`Conducted on
`September 10, 2021
`
`376
`
`that up as well on the screen.
`
`THE TECHNICIAN:
`
`Is that the document ending
`
`in U.S. 2005/0233212?
`
`MR. PALMIERI: That's correct, yeah. Yes,
`
`starts with K-a-euen. Great.
`
`Thank you.
`
`(Exhibit 1005, U.S. Patent Application Pub.
`
`No. US 2005/0233212, Kaun, marked for identification.
`
`
`
`BY MR. PALMIER
`
`QO
`
`So I want
`
`to look at paragraph 69 of 0069,
`
`which corresponds with those figures that we were
`
`just
`
`looking at,
`
`7A through 7D.
`
`A
`
`You just passed it.
`
`--
`
`09:
`
`25:
`
`51
`
`O09:
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`26
`
`:02
`
`09:
`
`26:
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`04
`
`O09:
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`26:
`
`10
`
`O09:
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`26:
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`11
`
`09:
`
`26:
`
`11
`
`O09:
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`26:
`
`11
`
`09:
`
`26:
`
`20
`
`O09:
`
`26:
`
`20
`
`09:
`
`26:
`
`29
`
`09:
`
`26:
`
`33
`
`O09:
`
`26:
`
`38
`
`40
`
`Q
`
`It should be on page 4
`
`page 15 of this
`
`PDF, overall?
`
`A
`
`Q
`
`Is that the one
`
`you're referring to?
`
`Yeah.
`
`So those are the figures, and then if
`
`we can go to paragraph 0069 on this specific language.
`
`THE TECHNICIAN:
`
`I'm sorry,
`
`I'm not entirely
`
`sure where to go.
`
`
`MR. PALMIERI:
`
`Sorry.
`
`So within Kaun, if
`
`you could go to page
`
`--
`
`page 15 of the PDF, and on
`
`that page is paragraph 69, on the left there, yeah.
`
`
`
`09:
`
`26:
`
`O09:
`
`26:
`
`44
`
`09:
`
`26:
`
`47
`
`O09:
`
`26:
`
`49
`
`09:
`
`26:
`
`52
`
`O09:
`
`27
`
`:04
`
`O09:
`
`27
`
`:06
`
`09:
`
`27
`
`:07
`
`O09:
`
`27:
`
`11
`
`09:
`
`27:
`
`18
`
`
`
`PLANET DEPOS
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`888.433.3767
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