`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar,
`Ph.D. (Volume 2)
`
`Date: June 3, 2021
`Case: PEAG LLC, et al -v- VARTA Microbattery GMBH. (PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email:: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`JLab/Cambridge, Exh. 1035, p. 1
`JLab/Cambridge v. Varta, 2020-01212
`
`

`

`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 2)
`Conducted on June 3, 2021
`
`1 (248 to 251)
`
`248
`
`250
`
` I N D E X
`
` PAGE
`
`EXAMINATION BY MR. RAGUSA 253
`
`EXAMINATION BY MR. MUELLER 318
`
`EXAMINATION BY MR. RAGUSA 323
`
`
`
` PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
`
`
`
` NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`
`EXHIBIT United States Patent US 9,153,835 309
`1001 B2
`
`EXHIBIT United States Patent Application 315
`1005 Publication US 2005/0233212 A1
`
`EXHIBIT Japanese Patent Office Publication 312
`1006 No. JP 2007-294111
`
`EXHIBIT Curriculum Vitae of Martin 324
`1031 Peckerar, Ph.D.
`
`EXHIBIT Corrected Declaration of Martin C. 254
`2043 Peckerar, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` NEWLY MARKED EXHIBITS
`
`
` NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`
`EXHIBIT European Patent Specification EP 1 254
`1007 886 364 B1,
`
`
`1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1
`
`0
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`
`PEAG LLC (d/b/a JLab Audio), AUDIO PARTNERSHIP LLC
`and AUDIO PARTNERSHIP PLC (d/b/a Cambridge Audio),
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
` VARTA MICROBATTERY GMBH,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
`
` Case IPR2020-01211 Case IPR2020-01212
` USP 9,496,581 UPS 9,153,835
`
` Case IPR2020-01213 Case IPR2020-01214
` USP 9,799,858 USP 9,799,913
`
`
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF:
`
` MARTIN C. PECKERAR, Ph.D. (Volume 2)
`
`
`
` TRANSCRIPT OF TESTIMONY, as reported by
`
`Cindy A. Hayden, Certified Court Reporter, RMR, CRR
`
`and Notary Public of the State of North Carolina,
`
`conducted virtually via Zoom Videoconference on
`
`Thursday, June 2, 2021, commencing at 9:01 a.m.
`
`EST.
`
`
`
`251
`
`1234567891
`
`249
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
` (All participated remotely via
` Zoom Videoconference)
`
`
`
` ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER, PEAG LLC, AUDIO
` PARTNERSHIP LLC and AUDIO PARTNERSHIP PLC:
`
`
` BAKER BOTTS LLP
` BY: PAUL A. RAGUSA, ESQ.
` NICK PALMIERI, ESQ.
` 30 Rockefeller Plaza
` New York, New York 10112
` 212.408.2500
` paul.ragusa@bakerbotts.com
` nick.palmieri@bakerbotts.com
`
`
`
` ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER,
` VARTA MICROBATTERY GMBH:
`
`
` LEYDIG VOIT & MAYER, LTD.
` BY: WESLEY O. MUELLER, ESQ.
` ROBERT T. WITTMANN, ESQ.
` Two Prudential Plaza
` 180 N. Stetson Avenue, Suite 4900
` Chicago, Illinois 60601
` 312.616.5600
` wmueller@leydig.com
` bwittmann@leydig.com
`
`
`
` ALSO PRESENT:
`
` DANIEL TERRY, Planet Depos Technician
`
` BRENDAN CASE, Planet Depos Videographer
`
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` * * *
` THE TECHNICIAN: Thank you to everyone
`for attending this proceeding remotely, which we
`anticipate will run smoothly. Also, please stand
`by for the technician read-on and backup recording.
`Zoom will prompt you for your consent to
`video-record this meeting for backup purposes.
` Please remember to speak slowly and do
`your best not to talk over one another. Please be
`0
`aware that we are recording this proceeding for
`11
`backup purposes.
`12
` Any off-the-record discussions should be
`13
`had away from the computer. Please remember to
`14
`mute your mic for those conversations. Please have
`15
`your video enabled to help the reporter identify
`16
`who is speaking. If you're unable to connect with
`17
`video and are connecting via phone, please identify
`18
`yourself each time before speaking. I apologize in
`19
`advance for any technical-related interruptions.
`20
`Thank you.
`21
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here continues the
`22
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1
`
`0
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1
`
`0
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`JLab/Cambridge, Exh. 1035, p. 2
`JLab/Cambridge v. Varta, 2020-01212
`
`

`

`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 2)
`Conducted on June 3, 2021
`252
`
`2 (252 to 255)
`
`254
`me know what exhibit number that is, we'll -- we'll
`get that on the record.
` (PECKERAR EXHIBIT 1007, European Patent
`Specification EP 1 886 364 B1, was marked for
`identification.)
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
` Q Okay. Do you now see the Ryou patent?
` A Yes, I do.
` (EXHIBIT 2043, Corrected Declaration of
`Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D., was previously marked
`for identification.)
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
` Q Okay. And I think what we'll -- we'll go
`back and forth, but why don't we turn to your
`declaration, as we did yesterday. I think you have
`nicer figures than the patent doc is themselves, as
`I've said. Let's turn to --
` A Yes.
` Q Let's turn to Figure 6. And I see that
`this is -- was marked as IPR Exhibit 1007, so we'll
`stay with that nomenclature.
` What type of cell is disclosed in Ryou?
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`video deposition of Dr. Martin Peckerar in the
`matter of PEAG, LLC, et al., versus VARTA
`Microbattery GmbH, held in the United States Patent
`and Trademark Office. Cause Number IPR2020-01211;
`-12, -13, and -14.
` Today's date is Thursday, June 3rd, 2021.
`The time is 9:01 a.m. Eastern Standard Time. Your
`videographer today is Brendan Case, representing
`Planet Depos. This deposition is taking place by
`video teleconference via Zoom.
` Would counsel present please identify
`themselves and whom they represent.
` MR. RAGUSA: Paul Ragusa and Nicholas
`Palmieri for the petitioners, PEAG and JLab.
` MR. MUELLER: Wes Mueller and Bob
`Wittmann, representing the patent owner, VARTA
`Microbattery GmbH.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Your court reporter
`today is Cindy Hayden, representing Planet Depos.
`Counsel, please proceed.
` MR. RAGUSA: Thank you.
` * * *
`
`253
`
` A It's a zinc-air cell.
` MARTIN C. PECKERAR, Ph.D.,
` having been previously sworn, was examined and
` Q Okay. Is it a button cell?
` A It could be formed as a button cell.
` testified as follows:
` * * *
` Q And turning to the type of battery, can
` EXAMINATION
`you describe your experience, if any, with zinc-air
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
`batteries?
` A A lot of experience with zinc. I did a
` Q Good morning, Dr. Peckerar.
` A Good morning.
`little zinc-air, of course, in my explorations,
`certainly at FlexEl. What would you like to know?
` Q I just would like to remind you that you
`are still under oath from yesterday, and I would
` Q Yeah. Let's start from the beginning.
`0
`like to just start off by again asking the same
`When did you first have exposure to a zinc-air
`11
`question I started off with yesterday.
`battery, and what was that experience?
`12
` A Of course, in my career as an electrical
` Are you physically okay? Is there any
`13
`engineer, I'm well aware of the large number of
`health issue or otherwise that would prevent you
`14
`battery types, and zinc-air is one. We -- the --
`from giving testimony today?
`15
` A No.
`the primary cell that I started my own research
`16
`with was what's called a Leclanché cell, which is a
` Q Okay. Terrific.
`17
`zinc metal battery and -- but -- but one that
` So we had gone through some prior art
`18
`doesn't require exposure to -- to atmosphere to --
`yesterday, and I think we'll continue with that
`19
`to generate a -- an electric current or -- or a
`same pattern. Let's turn to the next exhibit,
`20
`voltage draw.
`which will be the Ryou patent.
`21
` MR. RAGUSA: And if Mr. Palmieri can let
` Q Okay. Was that a zinc-air battery,
`22
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`1234567891
`
`255
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`JLab/Cambridge, Exh. 1035, p. 3
`JLab/Cambridge v. Varta, 2020-01212
`
`

`

`3 (256 to 259)
`
`258
`
`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 2)
`Conducted on June 3, 2021
`256
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`though?
` A No.
` Q Okay. And so let's turn to specific
`experience with zinc-air batteries. Have you
`worked with zinc-air batteries in your career?
` A We made a -- to -- to understand the --
`the physical processes going on in various cells
`and seeing if we can carry over different
`techniques or technologies into our own batteries,
`we made a number of different cells. I -- I will
`say I don't have extensive experience with
`zinc-air, but -- but I'm aware of the basic
`operation.
` Q Okay. Did you make a zinc-air battery?
` A Myself, no.
` Q And as part of the businesses that you've
`worked with, have those businesses worked with
`zinc-air batteries?
` A Yeah, to understand their limitations, to
`understand where they fit in the -- in the array of
`possible battery types. And I supervised other
`employees and reviewed the data that they
`
` A Yes.
` Q -- called "fusion bonding"; is that
`correct?
` A I don't recall the exact term. But
`the -- the cup and can, what passes through that,
`at least in Figure 6, are held together by an
`adhesive bond 56.
` Q And let me -- let's actually turn to
`Ryou. It's always good to go to the document. If
`we could turn to Paragraph 33, I think there's some
`information.
` And in Paragraph 33 -- let me make the
`text a little bit bigger for everybody -- Ryou
`states: In order to accomplish the above objects
`of the invention, according to one aspect of the
`invention, there is provided a battery comprising:
`an anode; a cathode; an anode can disposed to
`enable electrons to transfer against the anode; a
`cathode can disposed to enable electrons to
`transfer against the cathode; and a body forming a
`battery body, wherein one end of the body is
`fusion-bonded with an end portion of the anode can
`259
`
`1234567891
`
`257
`
`generated.
`and the other end of the body is fusion-bonded to
`an end portion of the cathode can, thereby
` Q Okay. Which company was that for?
` A FlexEl.
`hermetically sealing the battery.
` Do you see that passage, sir?
` Q And what -- what exactly did you do for
` A Yes, I see it.
`FlexEl that involved zinc-air batteries?
` A Well, as I said, we were constantly
` Q Okay. Does that refresh your
`experimenting with new -- new battery chemistries,
`recollection that fusion bonding is used to
`and we wanted to understand the full range of -- of
`hermetically seal the can in Ryou?
` A Yes, it's consistent with what I said
`strengths and weaknesses of each of these cells to
`earlier.
`possibly bring on those technologies into our
`0
`mainline product, which we discussed in some detail
` Q And so my question is --
`11
` A There is a line between --
`yesterday.
`12
` Q I'm sorry. Go ahead.
` Q Okay. And so what was your role in
`13
` A Yeah. Yeah, I didn't remember the exact
`connection with that study?
`14
`term that they used, but thank you for refreshing
` A Well, as the chief technology officer, I
`15
`my memory.
`oversaw them. I mean, some batteries, the -- the
`16
`Leclanché-type batteries, the -- the baticitor, as
` Q Okay. Can you describe the process of
`17
`I mentioned yesterday, I made with my own hands,
`fusion bonding?
`18
` A Well, it appears to me -- I mean,
`okay? These I did not. I just looked at the
`19
`normally -- and this is an issue of ambiguity here.
`output data.
`20
`Normally, when you fuse two materials together, one
` Q Now, were you -- this type of zinc --
`21
`would create an intermingling of the two materials,
`excuse me -- the zinc-air battery uses something --
`22
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`JLab/Cambridge, Exh. 1035, p. 4
`JLab/Cambridge v. Varta, 2020-01212
`
`

`

`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 2)
`Conducted on June 3, 2021
`260
`
`4 (260 to 263)
`
`262
`
`the furnace, yes, physically.
` Q Okay. And let me ask you, in connection
`with -- well, let me -- let me take a step back.
` Can you describe how zinc-air batteries
`function? And I can go back to Figure 6, if that's
`helpful.
` A Yeah. I mean, it's -- there's an aqueous
`electric-based electrolyte, which forms hydroxyls,
`which oxidize the anode, zinc. And on formation of
`the zinc hydroxide, two free electrons are
`generated, which can be transported to the opposite
`side of the battery when those are connect -- when
`the -- when the anode and -- can and the cathode
`can are connected via a load.
` The -- the anode region supplies oxygen
`for the -- for the formation of the hydroxyls, and
`the -- the net result is a battery which cannot be
`truly sealed. It has to be open to atmosphere or
`some -- or some source of oxygen in order to
`function.
` Q Did we just -- okay. Sorry. Just -- my
`screen changed. Everything went blank for a
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`creating a very firm atomic bond.
` The -- as I read Ryou and I looked at the
`figure which you just cited, it appeared as though
`there were -- there was a secondary material, an
`epoxy, a sealant, that was used to -- to hold
`the -- the cup and -- well, the anode -- what
`passes through the anode contacting cathode contact
`together. And that would of necessity be an
`insulator because you couldn't -- you couldn't
`short the anode to the cathode cans.
` Q That would be, as we discussed yesterday,
`an inherent feature that -- that you would -- you,
`as somebody of ordinary skill, would understand
`would need to be there?
` MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: Well, someone of ordinary
`skill would -- would understand what I just
`relayed.
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
` Q Okay. And to be clear, somebody of
`ordinary skill would understand that there would
`need to be something between the anode can and the
`261
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`263
`
`1234567891
`
`second. I wanted to make sure I didn't lose you.
`cathode can to prevent a short; is that your
` (Technical difficulties.)
`testimony?
` A Yes.
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
` Q So let's go to your Paragraph 179 where
` Q Okay. What is your experience, if any,
`you note that conventional zinc-air batteries like
`with fusion bonding?
` A As I said, I mean, you -- you can -- in
`Ryou do not use a jelly-roll design. Are you aware
`integrated circuits, for example, one does
`of other nonconventional zinc-air batteries that
`metallization. And one -- in order to form an
`either use a jelly roll or use a different
`anode contact, a substrate, one would place the
`configuration?
` A No, and I don't -- maybe -- to my
`interconnect over an insulating layer. And there
`0
`knowledge, okay, if you do a jelly roll, you're
`would be a hole cut in the insulating layer where
`11
`shielding one of the -- you're shielding one of the
`you wanted to make contact, for example, through
`12
`electrode surfaces from -- from oxygen, and so that
`the substrate.
`13
`would impede the functioning of the battery. But
` The metal would drape over that hole, and
`14
`I'm sure somebody can come up with something
`then you would heat it up, heat the material up.
`15
`clever.
`It's called -- a process called "sintering." And
`16
`the sinter forms a fusion contact, and that is a
` Q Okay. So let's talk about that a little
`17
`process which I am very familiar with.
`further.
`18
` A But these are --
` Q Okay. Have you performed fusion bonding
`19
` Q Go ahead. I'm sorry. You can say --
`yourself?
`20
` A As I said, that is not the general
` A In the sense that I've just given, yes.
`21
`config -- yeah, that's not the general
`I've placed the material on a bolt, stuck it into
`22
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`JLab/Cambridge, Exh. 1035, p. 5
`JLab/Cambridge v. Varta, 2020-01212
`
`

`

`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 2)
`Conducted on June 3, 2021
`264
`configuration. You've got to expose the -- in this
`case, the cathode region with -- to oxygen.
` Q Can you describe how a battery can be
`hermetically sealed yet have a -- exposure to
`oxygen?
` A That's a -- sorry, sir. That's a
`contradiction in terms.
` Q Okay. You agree that Ryou discloses
`being hermetically sealed, correct?
` A In -- in looking at Ryou, I see that
`he -- that he does -- well, he can bring up the
`Paragraph 180 and -- well, I can do that.
` Q There we go.
` A Okay. Okay. Have to -- let me refresh
`my memory here. We've got 56. Okay. 56 is --
`yeah.
` Okay. What they're saying is that this
`intermediate material is -- is fusion -- what they
`call "fusion-bonded" to the -- to the end -- to the
`cut ends of the cups. And in my write-up -- okay.
`I'm trying to refresh my memory as to where they
`refer to hermeticity.
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`Dr. Peckerar has frozen.
` (Technical difficulties.)
` THE WITNESS: How am I doing?
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
` Q You had just -- I don't know if it was
`just on my end. Your -- you froze up -- your video
`froze up, and your audio went inaudible for a
`moment.
` MR. RAGUSA: Did anyone else experience
`that?
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Yes.
` MR. RAGUSA: Okay. So why don't we
`just --
` MR. MUELLER: Yes, my -- it froze up.
` THE WITNESS: Am I still frozen?
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
` Q No. Now you're okay. Why don't you
`proceed. Thank you.
` A Okay. To reiterate, you can't have it
`both ways. Either you hermetically seal a package,
`which means that it's sealed against an atmosphere
`or ambient, or it's not hermetically sealed.
`
`5 (264 to 267)
`
`266
`
`1234567891
`
`265
`
` Now, if there's some confusion in the
` Okay. Oh, Ryou describes a hermetic
`language of the patent, I would take -- my position
`sealing of the battery may be carried out by fusion
`would be the confusion is in the -- in -- in the
`bonding of the cans to the body. The -- the --
`author of the patent.
`this is a sentence which I abstracted from -- from
`the Ryou patent itself.
` Q You're -- you're stating that you are not
` But -- but let me -- let me emphasize
`aware of a hermetic seal that can admit air?
` A Hermetic -- hermeticity is the property
`that the -- the zinc-air battery works by contact
`of sealing against ambient.
`with -- with oxygen. You have to supply oxygen to
`the cell. And so that generally means that -- that
` Q I'm sorry. Were you continuing, or -- or
`one end of the battery is open to environment. And
`is that -- are you finished?
`0
` A No. That's a statement, right. To be
`that defeats the issue -- the general definition
`11
`hermetic, you -- I think of Johnny Carson's line,
`of -- of "hermetic," which means airtight. You
`12
`but I won't go into that.
`have to supply air.
`13
` Q Yesterday, we discussed various types of
` Q Understood, sir. But do you agree that
`14
`bonding that a person of ordinary skill in the art
`Ryou discloses on the one hand a hermetically
`15
`was aware of in 2009. We specifically discussed
`sealed battery, and on the other hand, the ability
`16
`welding as being one of those techniques. Is --
`to have oxygen enter the battery to cause a
`17
`was fusion bonding another technique that was known
`reaction?
`18
` A If oxygen -- oh, sorry.
`by persons of ordinary skill in the art in 2009?
`19
` A Yes. And as I said, in the circuits
` MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
`20
`business, we fusion-bonded all the time, yes.
` THE WITNESS: If oxygen --
`21
` Q And specifically for -- for battery
` MR. RAGUSA: I'm sorry. It looks like
`22
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`267
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`JLab/Cambridge, Exh. 1035, p. 6
`JLab/Cambridge v. Varta, 2020-01212
`
`

`

`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 2)
`Conducted on June 3, 2021
`268
`
`6 (268 to 271)
`
`270
`
` MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: It -- it is possible, yes.
`But as I said, I mean, think -- plastic is a
`polymer.
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
` Q Would somebody of ordinary skill in the
`art in 1999 have considered using a polymer as a
`resin for fusion bonding?
` MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: I mean, if you're using a
`polymer, okay, in my mind and my experience with
`the chemistry of polymers, it would be difficult to
`form a true fusion bond between a polymer and a --
`and a piece of metal, for example.
` I mean, the -- the polymer is a
`long-chain organic molecule. It -- what's going to
`diffuse in -- my -- my knowledge of fusion bonding
`means that there has to be an intermingling of two
`materials, okay? I think it would be hard to
`get -- to -- basically, what you do, if you -- if
`you interdiffuse the -- the carbon-based components
`of an -- of an organic resin or a polymer into a
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`cell -- for batteries, and more particularly, for
`button cells, fusion bonding was an available
`technique for somebody of ordinary skill in the art
`to do bonding; is that true?
` MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: I mean, fusion bonding is
`available. When you talk about two materials being
`fused, you -- but you -- in using -- in -- think
`about the term itself and its common -- in common
`parlance. When you fuse two materials, there's an
`intermingling of each of the materials one into
`another.
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
` Q Now, let me ask you this: The -- the
`materials used for bonding you had hit on a couple
`of moments ago, are you familiar with the resins
`disclosed by Ryou for the purpose of -- of
`performing the bonding?
` A I'm, in general, familiar with resins
`that are used as -- as sealants.
` Q Okay. What materials can those resins be
`comprised of?
`
`1234567891
`
`269
`
` MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
`metal would be a cleavage of the polymer bond,
` THE WITNESS: They -- they -- there are a
`which would weaken the material.
`number of -- of -- I -- I just -- I'm trying to
` So while it's known you can glue packages
`think of some of the names, but it's not -- they
`together -- I mean, you can go out into the
`are eluding me right now. But let me go to my
`drugstore or grocery again and buy -- buy some Duco
`report and see if that will refresh my memory.
`cement, okay? That's well-known.
` I mean, a general class of epoxies and
` Okay. Can you form a true fusion bond
`resins is -- is well-known. I've used a number of
`that way? I'm expressing doubt of that -- on that,
`epoxies to -- to seal materials together. I think
`based on my previous discussion.
`we've all used glue.
` Sorry for the verbosity.
`0
` The -- the names of -- of specific resins
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
`11
`doesn't come to my mind right now. But I will say
` Q Yeah. No, no problem.
`12
`that -- that in my experience, when I've used
` So just -- just returning to the resins,
`13
`epoxies or resins to seal different materials,
`would the resin necessarily be insulating?
`14
` A Well, in this case, it would have to be.
`they -- even if you heat-treat those epoxies or
`15
`You've got the cathode and anode can, and you're
`resins, they -- they form a bond. But the bond, of
`16
`trying to fuse together -- I'm sorry. It's --
`course, is not as strong as a -- as a weld bond,
`17
`again, you can see how easy it is to use incorrect
`for example.
`18
`terminology -- to glue together.
` But, I'm sorry, the -- the names of the
`19
`resins that I've -- and epoxies that I've used --
` Q Okay. Now, in Paragraph 179, returning
`20
`and I have used many -- elude me right now.
`to it, you talk about the -- the use of -- or the
`21
` Q Could a polymer be used as the resin?
`lack of use of a jelly roll design. And I'd like
`22
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`271
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`JLab/Cambridge, Exh. 1035, p. 7
`JLab/Cambridge v. Varta, 2020-01212
`
`

`

`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 2)
`Conducted on June 3, 2021
`272
`to be clear on it. Why would a person of ordinary
`skill in the art not be able to use a jelly roll
`within the can or housing of Ryou?
` A As I mentioned earlier, it would impede
`the migration of oxygen into the cell through
`the -- of the cathode surface where you need to
`form the hydroxyls in order to -- to create the --
`on diffusion, to create the oxidation of the zinc.
`You'd be impeding that motion.
` Q Couldn't a person of ordinary skill use a
`vent hole to provide oxygen to that configuration?
` A As I said, of course, but then the cell
`is not hermetically sealed.
` Q Well, putting that opinion to the side,
`do you agree that a person of ordinary skill in the
`art could use a jelly roll within the housing of
`Ryou, providing a vent hole, to have a functioning
`battery?
` MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: Shouldn't you say, "Asked
`and answered"? I'm sorry. I don't mean to be
`snide. Again, I apologize.
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`in the can to provide oxygen?
` A And, therefore, it is not hermetically
`sealed.
` Q That -- that wasn't my question, sir.
` A They're claiming -- sorry. I apologize.
` Q No, no problem.
` Do you agree that Ryou discloses having a
`hole to provide oxygen through the can?
` A Yes, and you need that.
` Q Okay. And do you agree --
` A But then the can is no longer --
` Q Sorry. Continue.
` A And then the can is no longer
`hermetically sealed. It's got a hole in it.
` Q Do you agree that Ryou explicitly
`discloses hermetically sealing the battery?
` MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: I guess we have to go
`through all of this. The can by itself --
` (Technical difficulties.)
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
` Q I'm sorry. Dr. Peckerar, if you can hear
`
`7 (272 to 275)
`
`274
`
`273
`
`275
`
` Okay. The -- for the reasons that I've
`me, you're breaking up again.
`offered, that would -- that would not be possible.
` (Technical difficulties.)
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
` A I apologize. Is this helpful?
` Q Okay. Perhaps I'm not clear as to why
` Q Okay. I think you're back.
`that would not be possible. You -- you --
` A Can you hear me better?
` A You have to permeate --
` Q Yes, yes. You had just --
` Q But --
` A Oh, no.
` A You have to permeate the region
` Q We -- we lost connection for a moment. I
`immediately above the cathode cup with oxygen to
`think you're back.
`form the hydroxyls in the aqueous solution that
` A Yeah. Okay. Where was I?
`0
`forms the electrolyte. And those hydroxyls
` Okay. Prior to the poking of the hole,
`11
`subsequently migrate to the zinc plate, which
`obviously, Ryou views his can as being hermetically
`12
`creates the free electrons on oxidation of the
`sealed. I don't feel that he's formed a true
`13
`zinc.
`fusion bond between the -- between the sealant and
`14
` Q And I'm sorry. Why would oxygen not be
`the -- and the cup and can. I -- I believe he's --
`15
`supplied through a hole in the can?
`he's formed an adhesive bond.
`16
` A Yes, you -- you can do that, but then the
` Now, you know, I'm scratching my head
`17
`can is no longer hermetically sealed.
`here thinking also is it -- is it possible that he
`18
` Q Okay.
`might have -- have polymers or -- or resins -- this
`19
` A A hole in a can destroys hermeticity.
`is -- this is gross speculation -- resins which
`20
` Q Now, let's go back to the disclosure of
`include metal ions and then maybe -- metal ions can
`21
`Ryou. You agree that Ryou discloses having a hole
`interdiffuse, but you certainly wouldn't form what
`22
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`1234567891
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`JLab/Cambridge, Exh. 1035, p. 8
`JLab/Cambridge v. Varta, 2020-01212
`
`

`

`Transcript of Martin C. Peckerar, Ph.D. (Volume 2)
`Conducted on June 3, 2021
`276
`would generally be considered a true fusion bond.
` Okay. But the -- the issue of
`hermeticity, you can claim that a can -- that a cup
`and can that are glued together with some dense
`resin would -- or epoxy -- would -- can be used for
`a hermetic seal. But as soon as you poke that
`hole, you've lost hermeticity.
` Q Okay. Thank you for that explanation.
` And so can we clarify that before the
`hole is poked at the end of the manufacturing
`process, this is a hermetically sealed can,
`according to Ryou?
` MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: But it's not a functioning
`battery until the hole is poked.
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
` Q That -- that wasn't my question.
` A Okay.
` Q We -- we can refer to Paragraph 102 --
` A Prior to the --
` Q But -- but go ahead, please.
` A Prior to the poking of the hole, you can
`
`1234567891
`
`0
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`
`let's just say a person could say, well, let's glue
`these cups -- cup and can together. Okay. But
`that would be a person of less than ordinary skill.
`It wouldn't be a wise thing to do. And may I offer
`one other reason?
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
` Q Certainly.
` A The -- the -- yeah. The strength of the
`seal would be determined by the contact area
`between the resin and the cup lips of the can and
`cup. Well, there is no can. It's just cups here.
` And -- and if that's too small -- if that
`contact area -- you see 60 impinging on 56 -- yeah,
`that's it -- if that area is too small, it supplies
`no -- it takes no force to prise it apart. And so
`you're going to need a relatively long contact
`reach in order to create a strong bond in that
`sense.
` Q Do you agree that the use of a resin is
`an alternative to beading over to hermetically seal
`a can?
` MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
`
`8 (276 to 279)
`
`278
`
`1234567891
`
`277
`
`view it as hermetically sealed.
` THE WITNESS: All I can say is it would
` Q Okay. And if somebody of ordinary skill
`be a poor alternative. One would not be motivated
`were to replace the zinc-air components with a
`to use that in a practical battery.
`jelly roll, there would be no reason to poke a hole
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
`because you wouldn't need oxygen for the
` Q Do you agree that Ryou --
` A But as I said earlier --
`electrolyte process; is that correct?
` MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
` Q Go ahead, please.
` A Yes. The reason Ryou could -- could take
` THE WITNESS: You want to put a jelly
`this position is that there's very little axial
`roll inside the Ryou package? I -- I would say
`force because he's got that hole. You can't build
`that -- that the techniques that were being used in
`0
`up axial force.
`and around that time, which involved gaskets,
`11
`friction fits, beading, would be easy to perform
` Q Does Ryou disclose any beading over of a
`12
`and more effective, and I wouldn't be motivated to
`cell top to a cell bottom?
`13
` A Certainly not in Figure 6. I mean,
`go -- to go to a glue to hold the thing together.
`14
`perhaps you -- you can claim that there's an epoxy
`BY MR. RAGUSA:
`15
`bead 56, but that's not beading over. Remember --
` Q But do you agree that it was within the
`16
`remember the definition of "beading over." It's
`level of somebody of ordinary skill to use a resin
`17
`insulation of a mechanical member which impedes
`to hold the -- the cans together as opposed to one
`18
`motion in the -- in this case, in the axial
`of the alternate techniques, like beading over?
`19
`direction.
` MR. MUELLER: Objection to form.
`20
` THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Again,
` Q Let's turn to a second -- a different
`21
`without -- okay. The -- yeah, you -- a person --
`portion of yo