· · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`· · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRAIL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`1
`
`YITA LLC,· · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · ·Petitioner,· · · )· Case IPR2020-01142
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`VS.· · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`MACNEIL IP LLC,· · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · ·Patent Owner.· · )
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·ORAL DEPOSITION
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·OF
`· · · · · · · · ·PAUL E. KOCH, PH.D.
`· · · · · · · · · SEPTEMBER 10, 2021
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 1
`
`
`
`· · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRAIL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`1
`
`YITA LLC,· · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · ·Petitioner,· · · )· Case IPR2020-01142
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`VS.· · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`MACNEIL IP LLC,· · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · ·Patent Owner.· · )
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·ORAL DEPOSITION
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·OF
`· · · · · · · · ·PAUL E. KOCH, PH.D.
`· · · · · · · · · SEPTEMBER 10, 2021
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 1
`
`
`
`2
`
`· ·ORAL DEPOSITION OF PAUL E. KOCH, PH.D.,
`
`produced as a witness at the instance of the
`
`Patent Owner and duly sworn, was taken in the
`
`above-styled and numbered cause on
`
`September 10, 2021, from 8:27 a.m. to
`
`2:00 p.m., before KATERI A. FLOT-DAVIS, CSR,
`
`CCR, in and for the State of Texas, reported
`
`by machine shorthand, pursuant to the Federal
`
`Rules of Civil Procedure and the provisions
`
`stated on the record herein.
`
`This hearing is being conducted remotely in
`
`accordance with the current Emergency Order
`
`regarding the COVID-19 State of Disaster of
`
`the World.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 2
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`
`
`· · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`3
`
`FOR THE PETITIONER YITA LLC:
`
`JASON A. FITZSIMMONS, ESQ.
`R. WILSON "TREY" POWERS, III, ESQ.
`Sterne Kessler Goldstein & Fox
`1100 New York Avenue Northwest
`Ste. 600
`Washington, D.C. 20005
`jfitzsimmons@sternkessler.com
`tpowers@sternkessler.com
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`
`DAVID G. WILLE, ESQ.
`CLARKE STAVINOHA, ESQ.
`CHAD D. WALTERS, ESQ.
`Baker Botts, L.L.P.
`2001 Ross Avenue
`Ste. 900
`Dallas, Texas 75201
`david.willeBakerbotts.com
`clarke.stavinoha@bakerbotts.com
`chad.walters@bakerbotts.com
`
`JEFFERSON PERKINS, ESQ.
`Perkins IP Law Group LLC
`4200 Commerce Court
`Ste. 310
`Lisle, Illinois 60532
`jperkins@perkinsip.com
`
`Also Present:
`
`Juan Torres, Document Technician
`Adilyne Garcia, Document Technician
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 3
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · INDEX
`
`4
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`Appearances........................· · · ·3
`
`PAUL E. KOCH, PH.D.
`
`· ·Examination by Mr. Wille........· · · · 6
`
`Reporter's Certificate..............· · · 283
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 4
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`
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·EXHIBITS
`
`5
`
`(All Exhibits are previously marked and
`attached)
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 5
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`
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`· · · · · · P R O C E E D I N G S
`
`6
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`· · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· On the record at
`
`· · · 8:27 a.m.
`
`· · · · · ·(Witness sworn.)
`
`· · · · · · ·PAUL E. KOCH, PH.D.,
`
`having been first duly sworn, testified as
`
`follows:
`
`· · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. WILLE:
`
`· · · Q.· ·Good morning, Dr. Koch.
`
`· · · A.· ·Good morning.
`
`· · · Q.· ·You've been deposed before in this
`
`case, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·Do I recall, it was -- it was you?
`
`· · · Q.· ·Yes.
`
`· · · A.· ·Good to see you again.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Good to see you.
`
`· · · · · ·And that was in March; remember?
`
`· · · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·March of 2021?
`
`· · · A.· ·That's correct.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 6
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`
`
`· · · Q.· ·All right.
`
`· · · · · ·You understand you're still under
`
`7
`
`oath, right?
`
`· · · A.· ·That's right.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·Sir, you're not a legal expert,
`
`correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·That is correct.· I am not a
`
`legal -- I am not a lawyer.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Thank you.
`
`· · · · · ·And you don't speak French,
`
`correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·My wife taught French for, oh,
`
`probably 20 years, so I probably picked
`
`something up.· Probably not as much as she
`
`wished, but still some.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·You're -- you're not a -- you're
`
`not a qualified French interpreter, are you,
`
`sir?
`
`· · · A.· ·That is correct.· I am not a
`
`qualified French interpreter.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And so you relied upon a French
`
`translation -- or two French translations, one
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 7
`
`
`
`by Mr. Dawson and one by Dr. Popp, in your
`
`8
`
`declaration; is that correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·That's correct.
`
`· · · Q.· ·All right.
`
`· · · · · ·Are there any other translations of
`
`the Rabbe reference that you looked at?
`
`· · · A.· ·I don't recall any other ones.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· And, for the court
`
`· · · reporter, Rabbe (phonetics: Rah-bee) or
`
`· · · Rabbe (phonetics: Rob) is spelled
`
`· · · R-a-b-b-e.· That's something we'll be
`
`· · · referring to a number of times today.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· So you wouldn't --
`
`because you are not a qualified French
`
`interpreter, you wouldn't offer opinions on
`
`the correctness of one translation versus
`
`another, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·I've read both translations and I
`
`think I understand both translations.· I think
`
`I understand that there was some discussion
`
`about which one was more accurate.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And because you're not a qualified
`
`French interpreter, you're not qualified to
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 8
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`
`
`offer an opinion on which translation is more
`
`9
`
`accurate, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·That's correct.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Let's -- let's bring up
`
`· · · your declaration, your reply
`
`· · · declaration, Exhibit 1041.
`
`· · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 1041 Previously
`
`· · · Marked.)
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· And --
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I have a clean copy
`
`· · · in front of me here.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·That's -- so that's helpful, then.
`
`· · · Then I don't think we need to bring it
`
`· · · up if you have a clean copy in front of
`
`· · · you.
`
`· · · · · ·But let's establish two things -- a
`
`· · · few things.
`
`· · · · · ·Your declaration, Exhibit 1041, is
`
`· · · the same in both IPR-1139 and IPR-1142,
`
`· · · correct?
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's correct.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·So, Mr. Fitzsimmons, why don't we
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 9
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`
`
`10
`
`· · · deal with this up front?
`
`· · · · · ·I don't plan to offer any exhibits
`
`· · · that are different in one IPR versus the
`
`· · · other.
`
`· · · · · ·Can we stipulate that any exhibit I
`
`· · · use today, because it's going to have
`
`· · · the same number in both IPRs, the
`
`· · · testimony and that exhibit can be used
`
`· · · in both IPRs and that -- and that the
`
`· · · exhibit for both IPRs can be attached to
`
`· · · the transcript.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· That's great,
`
`· · · David.· Yeah.· Let's do that so we don't
`
`· · · have to bring up the same exhibit for
`
`· · · both cases.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.· Sounds good.
`
`· · · Okay.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· So, Dr. Koch, in
`
`front of you, you have a hard copy of Exhibit
`
`1041, which is your reply declaration,
`
`correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·That is correct.
`
`· · · Q.· ·All right.
`
`· · · · · ·So I've already deposed you on your
`
`initial declaration in both IPRs, right?
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 10
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`
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`11
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`· · · A.· ·That is correct.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·So for sake of simplicity today, I
`
`am going -- when I say "your declaration,"
`
`unless I clarify that it's the earlier one,
`
`when I say "your declaration" I'm always
`
`referring to the reply declaration.
`
`· · · · · ·Can we agree to that for
`
`simplicity?
`
`· · · A.· ·Yes, we can.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·All right.
`
`· · · · · ·So are you aware of any statements
`
`in your declaration, Exhibit 1041, that
`
`require correction?
`
`· · · A.· ·No, I am not.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·Who participated in creating your
`
`declaration, Exhibit 1041?
`
`· · · A.· ·Counsel, myself and my associate,
`
`Alex.· As I told you previously I'm not much
`
`of a typist, so I do hand notes and Alex types
`
`it up for me.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And which lawyers participated in
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 11
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`
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`12
`
`creating your declaration?
`
`· · · A.· ·Oh.· Let me think about this.
`
`There were several involved.
`
`· · · · · ·Trey comes to mind.· The fellows
`
`that were on the -- the -- the first
`
`deposition.· And Jason was here.· And, let's
`
`see, yesterday we had -- what was his name?
`
`We talked for two days.
`
`· · · · · ·I think there was a total of only
`
`four involved.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·So you had Mr. Powers,
`
`Mr. Fitzsimmons, Mr. Walters?
`
`· · · A.· ·Yeah.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And who was the fourth person?
`
`· · · A.· ·Steve, yesterday.· I don't remember
`
`Steve's last name.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And you -- so did I understand you
`
`correctly:· You had two days of preparation
`
`for your deposition?
`
`· · · A.· ·I -- I broke it up, Dave, into two
`
`half days.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 12
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`
`
`· · · · · ·So you -- you met with the
`
`attorneys for two half days in preparation for
`
`13
`
`your testimony today; is --
`
`· · · · · ·(Simultaneous speaking.)
`
`· · · A.· ·It was --
`
`· · · Q.· ·-- that correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·-- it was virtual.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·But you met with them virtually to
`
`prepare for your deposition, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·That's correct.
`
`· · · Q.· ·All right.
`
`· · · · · ·When you -- before you signed your
`
`declaration, did you carefully check each of
`
`the citations to make sure the citations were
`
`accurate?
`
`· · · A.· ·I went through it one -- twice.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And so did you check each citation
`
`to make sure the citations were accurate?
`
`· · · A.· ·To the best of my ability.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And did you check each quotation to
`
`make sure each of the quotations were
`
`accurate?
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 13
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`
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`14
`
`· · · A.· ·Did I check to make sure the
`
`quotations were accurate?
`
`· · · · · ·Yeah.· Yes, I did.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·Were you, in preparation of your
`
`declaration, shown the errata sheet for
`
`Mr. Popp's deposition?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.
`
`· · · Scope.· And objection to the extent it
`
`· · · would reveal any privileged
`
`· · · communication.
`
`· · · · · ·I would instruct the witness not to
`
`· · · answer.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· I think you can answer
`
`· · · the question unless it would reveal
`
`· · · privileged communications.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think counsel just
`
`· · · advised me not to answer.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·Well, let me ask the question a
`
`· · · different way.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Did you consider
`
`Dr. Popp's errata sheet for his deposition in
`
`reaching the opinions that you give in your
`
`declaration?
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 14
`
`
`
`· · · A.· ·I considered the translation I saw,
`
`15
`
`his translation.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Yeah.
`
`· · · · · ·I'm asking about the errata for his
`
`deposition.
`
`· · · · · ·Did you consider that in reaching
`
`your opinions?
`
`· · · A.· ·I'm confused.· What is the errata?
`
`· · · Q.· ·Do you know what an errata sheet is
`
`for a deposition?
`
`· · · A.· ·I don't think I do, Dave.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Where a witness can correct
`
`mistakes in the -- in the transcription?
`
`· · · A.· ·No.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Did you see anything like that?
`
`· · · A.· ·I don't think I saw anything.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · A.· ·I have to think about that.· I have
`
`to think about that, Dave.· I'm not positive.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·What -- did you consider the errata
`
`sheet for Dr. Osswald's deposition?
`
`· · · A.· ·Did I consider?
`
`· · · · · ·I've read Tim's deposition. I
`
`don't know if there was an errata sheet.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 15
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`16
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`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·How about Ray Sherman's deposition?
`
`· · · · · ·Did you consider the errata sheet
`
`for Ray Sherman's deposition?
`
`· · · A.· ·I -- I saw something where he
`
`wanted to change his opinions.
`
`· · · · · ·Is that the errata sheet?
`
`· · · Q.· ·I wouldn't characterize the errata
`
`sheet that way.
`
`· · · A.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · Q.· ·There is a -- there is a -- there
`
`is an errata -- errata for his deposition
`
`where he corrects certain things in the
`
`deposition.
`
`· · · · · ·Did you see that?
`
`· · · A.· ·Yeah.· I think I did see that.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And how about Mr. Granger?
`
`· · · · · ·Did you see the -- did you consider
`
`the errata sheet for Mr. Granger's deposition?
`
`· · · A.· ·Same.
`
`· · · · · ·I probably wouldn't have identified
`
`it as the errata sheet.· I'm sure I saw
`
`whatever was provided.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 16
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`
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`· · · · · ·Let's -- let's talk about
`
`17
`
`thermoforming.
`
`· · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · · Q.· ·So if you were doing vacuum forming
`
`or pressure forming, you're using a sheet of
`
`thermoplastic, correct?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Thermoforming in
`
`· · · either vacuum forming or pressure
`
`· · · forming usually starts with a sheet.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And pressure forming and vacuum
`
`forming are types of thermoforming, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·That is correct.
`
`· · · Q.· ·All right.
`
`· · · · · ·And the -- the sheet -- the sheet
`
`that you start with, you first have to make
`
`that sheet or purchase that sheet to
`
`thermoform, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·Plastic historically comes as
`
`pellets and then it's converted into a sheet
`
`stock.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And so to convert plastic pellets
`
`into a sheet stock, that can be done with
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 17
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`18
`
`processes such as extrusion and injection
`
`molding, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·It's -- it's almost always
`
`extrusion.· I don't know of any thermoforming
`
`stock that's injection molded.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·But you can create a sheet of
`
`thermoplastic with injection molding, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·You -- it depends on the grade but,
`
`in general, yes, you can create flat shapes in
`
`injection molding.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·So if -- if you're doing
`
`thermoforming there's two sets of equipment
`
`that you need, right?
`
`· · · · · ·You need something to make the
`
`sheet and then you need something to mold the
`
`sheet into a finished product, correct?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· There are
`
`· · · opportunities where they're done at the
`
`· · · same time.· The same line will make the
`
`· · · sheet, form the sheet, fill the sheet --
`
`· · · fill the product and seal the product.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 18
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`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· There are processes
`
`19
`
`· · · where it's all one.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· For clarity, in the
`
`answer you just described, you're -- you're
`
`basically saying there are assembly lines in
`
`certain factories where the pellets are placed
`
`at one end, some machinery converts those
`
`pellets into a sheet and then the sheet is
`
`thermoformed by other machinery and the
`
`finished product comes out the other end of
`
`the assembly line.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· They're called form,
`
`· · · fill and seal machines.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Now, with
`
`compression molding you do not need to make a
`
`sheet before you do the molding, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·There's times when what goes into a
`
`compression mold is in a sheet form.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And often it's just in a form of a
`
`blob, correct?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 19
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`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's too much of a
`
`· · · generalization.· "Blob" is not a
`
`20
`
`· · · technical term.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·It's called a charge?
`
`· · · A.· ·Sometimes.· Sometimes a preform.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·What's a preform?
`
`· · · A.· ·It's a shape of a charge or the
`
`shape of the thermoset material that goes into
`
`a compression mold.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.
`
`· · · · · ·So let's talk about foams.
`
`· · · · · ·So two of the types of foams that
`
`you address in your -- in your declaration are
`
`polyethylene foam and ethylvinyl acetate --
`
`ethylene vinyl acetate foam, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·Yes.· They're both mentioned.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And polyethylene foam is often
`
`abbreviated as PE foam; is that right?
`
`· · · A.· ·Oftentimes.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And ethylene vinyl acetate foam is
`
`often called EVA foam, correct?
`
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`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 20
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`21
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`· · · A.· ·The same -- yes.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And so is it okay to use the
`
`abbreviations "PE foam" and "EPA foam" today?
`
`· · · A.· ·Yes, it is.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·So you understand that some foams
`
`are crosslinked, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·It can be done.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·So, for example, there is
`
`crosslinked polyethylene foam, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·There are some.
`
`· · · Q.· ·And crosslinking generally makes
`
`the material more rigid, correct?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's a broad
`
`· · · generalization.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Yes.
`
`· · · · · ·And it's generally a correct broad
`
`generalization, right?
`
`· · · A.· ·No --
`
`· · · · · ·(Simultaneous speaking.)
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection --
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· -- (inaudible) --
`
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`22
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`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· -- form.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· -- I -- I disagree
`
`· · · with that.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Is it true that
`
`crosslinking makes the melting point of the
`
`material higher than it would be without the
`
`crosslinking?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Melting point is a
`
`· · · function of the base polymer.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Right.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· And when you
`
`crosslink the base polymer it makes the
`
`melting point higher than it would be if you
`
`just had the base polymer, correct?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· It depends on the
`
`· · · degree of crosslinking.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Right.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· It depends on the
`
`degree of crosslinking, but the more
`
`crosslinking there is, the higher the melting
`
`point, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·Melting point is a generic term and
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
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`23
`
`it's not a scientific term, so you're going to
`
`mix many properties when you try and
`
`characterize an elevation in melting point and
`
`tie it to cross-links.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·Well, is it true, or not, that
`
`cross-linking generally makes the melting
`
`point higher than the material would be
`
`without the cross-linking?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah -- melting point
`
`· · · is still not the correct way to think of
`
`· · · this.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Polymer chemists do
`
`typically refer to the melting point of
`
`thermoplastics, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·They talk about the glass
`
`transition temperature.· They talk about the
`
`crystalline melting point.· Seldom do polymer
`
`scientists use that term.· It's more out of
`
`their field.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·So "crystalline melting point" is
`
`something you understand?
`
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`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 23
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`24
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`· · · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·So the crystalline melting point is
`
`higher when something is cross-linked than
`
`when it is not, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·The crystalline melting point is
`
`indicative of the base polymer -- the base
`
`polymer.· It's not affected by the degree of
`
`crosslinking.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·So one of the materials discussed
`
`in the Yung reference is EPA foam, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · · Q.· ·All right.
`
`· · · · · ·And there, that is a material that
`
`can be cross-linked as well, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·There are several techniques for
`
`crosslinking thermoplastic foams.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Including EVA foams?
`
`· · · A.· ·Including EVA foams.
`
`· · · Q.· ·And EVA foam is a semi-crystalline
`
`polymer, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·That's a broad generalization.· And
`
`the fact that it's ethylene vinyl acetate goes
`
`to the opposite of crystallization.· It makes
`
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`25
`
`it less crystal- -- less able to crystallize.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·But it is a semi-crystalline
`
`polymer, right?
`
`· · · A.· ·You can't say that until you
`
`specify the degree of the vinyl acetate
`
`co-monomer in the EVA foam.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·Is -- is polyethylene a crystalline
`
`polymer?
`
`· · · A.· ·Polyethylene is a semi-crystalline
`
`polymer.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And is polyethylene foam a
`
`semi-crystalline polymer?
`
`· · · A.· ·Foaming the material does not
`
`change the base properties of polyethylene.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And is that true of EVA as well?
`
`· · · A.· ·You can't tell with EVA because EVA
`
`is a copolymer so it's a mix of two different
`
`monomers.· Until you specify that ratio, you
`
`can't make a generalization about its ability
`
`to crystallize.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 25
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`· · · · · ·Are -- are the fibers used to
`
`create polyester fabric crystalline polymers?
`
`26
`
`· · · A.· ·They can be.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·So when you -- when you create the
`
`fibers for polyester fabric, you're
`
`crystallizing the polyethylene plastic,
`
`correct?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection --
`
`· · · · · ·(Simultaneous speaking.)
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's --
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· -- form.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· -- that's not
`
`· · · necessarily true.· They can or cannot
`
`· · · be.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Now, you -- you're
`
`aware that one of the materials discussed in
`
`the Yung reference is EVA foam.
`
`· · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·Other than Yung, are there any
`
`other references that you talk about in either
`
`of your declarations that specify the use of
`
`EVA foam for a floor tray or floor mat?
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 26
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`27
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Did you ask if any
`
`· · · other references mention EVA foam?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· No.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· I'm asking whether
`
`any of the references say to make a floor mat
`
`or floor tray out of EVA foam.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't recall any
`
`· · · other references either excluding or
`
`· · · including it.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·Let's talk about -- at least as we
`
`sit here today, you don't recall any of the
`
`references that you considered for either of
`
`your declarations, besides Yung, saying to
`
`make a floor mat or a floor tray out of EVA
`
`foam -- as we sit here.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Dave, actually, I
`
`· · · can't recall.· EVA is a copolymer of
`
`· · · polyethylene and many times a small
`
`· · · amount of EVA is mixed or co-polymerized
`
`· · · in with polyethylene.
`
`· · · · · ·So there may be -- if it specifies
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
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`28
`
`· · · polyethylene, it's not uncommon that
`
`· · · there would be a small component of
`
`· · · vinyl acetate in it.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·But there are certainly times
`
`where, despite there being a small amount of
`
`something in there, the polymer is either
`
`called EVA foam or it's called PE foam, right?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Well, I'm confused as
`
`· · · to --
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.· Let me -- Let me
`
`· · · clarify the question.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Is there any
`
`reference that you considered for your -- for
`
`your declaration which says to make a floor
`
`tray or floor mat out of EVA foam and uses the
`
`term "EVA foam" to describe the material the
`
`floor mat or floor tray is made of?
`
`· · · A.· ·I'm -- I'm trying to recall.· Some
`
`of the commercial floor mats talk about
`
`adhesives and tackifiers.
`
`· · · · · ·I -- I don't -- can't say yes or no
`
`to that.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 28
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`· · · A.· ·The more I think about it, the more
`
`I would think about some of the -- whether
`
`some of the adhesives or --
`
`· · · · · ·(Simultaneous speaking.)
`
`29
`
`· · · Q.· ·So you --
`
`· · · A.· ·I can't --
`
`· · · Q.· ·-- have your --
`
`· · · A.· ·-- I can't --
`
`· · · Q.· ·-- declaration --
`
`· · · A.· ·-- say for sure.
`
`· · · Q.· ·-- you have your declaration in
`
`front of you.
`
`· · · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`· · · Q.· ·You -- you have not -- in your
`
`declaration, Exhibit 1041, you have not
`
`identified a floor mat or floor tray reference
`
`other than Yung which says to make a floor
`
`tray or floor mat out of EVA foam, correct?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· I'll withdraw that.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· I have searched
`
`your declaration for all the places you used
`
`"foam" and I didn't see that.
`
`· · · A.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 29
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`30
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I -- I don't think my
`
`· · · searching of it would do any more than
`
`· · · your searching of it.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· So, as we sit here
`
`today, certainly in Exhibit 1041 you don't
`
`recall any of the references teaching to make
`
`a floor tray or floor mat out of EVA foam
`
`other than Yung, right?
`
`· · · A.· ·Like I say, I'm trying to think
`
`about all the commercial examples that we've
`
`provided and whether they specified their tie
`
`layers or their adhesives added in the vinyl
`
`acetate content.
`
`· · · · · ·And I -- I certainly have used
`
`vinyl acetate polymers in co-extrusions and
`
`layers many times in my career.
`
`· · · · · ·So I'm going to say I can't
`
`pinpoint at this -- as I sit here with you
`
`today, pinpoint a reference that spells out
`
`something using an EVA foam.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · A.· ·Either you --
`
`· · · · · ·(Simultaneous speaking.)
`
`· · · Q.· ·Now, you are aware that EVA foam
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 30
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`31
`
`gets compression molded, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·I've seen it on the Internet.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·You haven't -- have you seen it --
`
`when you say you've seen it on the Internet,
`
`have you seen applications where EVA foam is
`
`compression molded before this case?
`
`· · · A.· ·Yes, I have.· I've seen one -- yes,
`
`I have.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And polyethylene foam also gets
`
`compression molded, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·It does.· It's a -- it's a
`
`nontraditional use.· It's more of a stamping
`
`process, a hot stamping process.
`
`· · · · · ·Compression molding is the domain
`
`of thermosets, not thermoplastic foams.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·We'll come back to that.
`
`· · · · · ·But you do agree that polyethylene
`
`foam does get compression molded into some
`
`type of plastic part, right?
`
`· · · A.· ·It gets stamped.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And --
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 31
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`32
`
`· · · · · ·(Simultaneous speaking.)
`
`· · · A.· ·It's not a compression molding
`
`process.
`
`· · · Q.· ·-- laminates --
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· David, I would
`
`· · · ask just that you please let Dr. Koch
`
`· · · finish his answers.· I think he wasn't
`
`· · · finished there and you asked your next
`
`· · · question.
`
`· · · · · ·I know sometimes with the -- the
`
`· · · virtual nature it's hard to hear, but I
`
`· · · think he was not finished yet there.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Laminates are also
`
`compression molded, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·"Laminates are compression molded."
`
`· · · · · ·I've seen an example of thermoset
`
`preforms that are multiple layers that are
`
`compression molded.· But, as I said,
`
`compression molding is the domain of
`
`thermosets.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·So you've seen the original -- I
`
`showed it to you at your last deposition --
`
`the original application that the inventor
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 32
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`33
`
`filed in Taiwan for the Yung reference,
`
`correct?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I recall that.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And that reference indicated that
`
`Yung's laminate was compression molded,
`
`correct?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · And objection.· Mischaracterizes the
`
`· · · reference.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think he included
`
`· · · it as a potential embodiment.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· And Yung's --
`
`Yung's three-layer structure includes
`
`thermoplastics, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·That embodiment had thermoplastics
`
`in it.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And, in fact, it is true that
`
`compression molding is used for both
`
`thermosets and thermoplastics, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·Compression molding is historically
`
`the domain of thermosets and, as we talked
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 33
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`34
`
`about, he omitted that reference in his later
`
`patent applications.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Sir, is it true, or not, that
`
`compression molding is used for both
`
`thermosets and thermoplastics?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Asked
`
`· · · and answered.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· And I think I've said
`
`· · · before that compression molding is
`
`· · · historically the domain of thermosets.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· But it's also used
`
`for thermoplastics, correct?
`
`· · · A.· ·There are process adaptions that
`
`don't constitute compression molding, where
`
`thermoplastics can be formed using simple
`
`presses.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Do you ever purchase two-liter
`
`bottles of soda?
`
`· · · A.· ·Occasionally.
`
`· · · Q.· ·And the cap for a two-liter bottle
`
`of soda is a compression molded item, isn't
`
`it, sir?
`
`· · · A.· ·No --
`
`· · · · · ·(Simultaneous speaking.)
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection --
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 34
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`35
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· -- that's not true.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· -- relevance.
`
`· · · Objection.· Relevance.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· It's --
`
`· · · · · ·(Simultaneous speaking.)
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's -- that's not
`
`· · · true.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Isn't it true that
`
`caps for bottles are compression molded?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection --
`
`· · · · · ·(Simultaneous speaking.)
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· -- form.
`
`· · · Objection.· Scope.· Objection relevance.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· You can answer.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No.
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·Isn't it true that caps for various
`
`containers are compression molded out of
`
`thermoplastics?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · Objection.· Scope.· Objection.
`
`· · · Relevance.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· The process for
`
`· · · making the caps is not compression
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 35
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`36
`
`· · · molding.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·Let's bring up Exhibit 2175,
`
`· · · please.
`
`· · · · · ·(Exhibit No. 2175 Previously
`
`· · · Marked.)
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· And that should be
`
`· · · shared.
`
`· · · · · ·Any time you bring up an exhibit,
`
`· · · please share it with everyone, as well.
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Okay?
`
`· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. WILLE)· So, Dr. Koch, you
`
`see Exhibit 2175 on the screen?
`
`· · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·And Exhibit 2175 is U.S. Patent No.
`
`7,108,823, which was issued in September
`
`of 2006, correct?
`
`· · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you blow it up
`
`· · · just a bit?
`
`· · · · · ·Does the document control have the
`
`· · · ability to blow that up?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Yes.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· David, this is a
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2184
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139, Page 36
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`37
`
`· · · new exhibit; is that correct?
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· That's correct.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· Okay.
`
`· · · · · ·Object to scope and relevance of
`
`· · · this exhibit in both proceedings.
`
`· · · · · ·As we mentioned, any time I object
`
`· · · to -- to a reference like that, it will
`
`· · · have it for both proceedings, I --
`
`· · · · · ·(Simultaneous speaking.)
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Yeah.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. FITZSIMMONS:· -- presume.
`
`· · · · · ·MR. WILLE:· Yeah.
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