In the Matter Of:
`
`Yita v
`
`MacNeil [P
`
`March I 7, 2021
`
`JOHN DAWSON
`
`MacNeiI Exhibit 2040
`
`Yita v. MacNeiI IP, |PR2020-01139
`
`Page 1
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`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 1
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`
`
`Yita v
`
`MacNeil [P
`
`March I 7, 2021
`
`JOHN DAWSON
`
`MacNeiI Exhibit 2040
`
`Yita v. MacNeiI IP, |PR2020-01139
`
`Page 1
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 1
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`· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`· · · · · · · · · · · ____________
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`· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`1
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`· · · · · · · · · · · ____________
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · YITA, LLC
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
`
`· · · · · · · · · · MACNEIL, IP LLC,
`· · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner,
`· · · · · · · · · · · ____________
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2020-01142
`· · · · · · · · · · Patent 8,833,834
`
`· · · · · · · · · · ·ORAL DEPOSITION
`
`· · · · · · · · · · ·JOHN E. DAWSON
`
`· · · · · · · · · · ·MARCH 17, 2021
`
`· · ORAL DEPOSITION OF JOHN E. DAWSON, via Zoom,
`
`produced as a witness at the instance of the Patent
`
`Owner and duly sworn, was taken in the above-styled and
`
`numbered cause on March 17, 2021, from 9:25 a.m. to
`
`10:28 a.m., before Melinda Barre, Certified Shorthand
`
`Reporter in and for the State of Texas, reported by
`
`computerized stenotype machine, all parties appearing
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`remotely via web videoconference, pursuant to the rules
`
`of procedure and the provisions stated on the record or
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`attached hereto.
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`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 2
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`· · · · · · · · · · · ·APPEARANCES
`· · · · (ALL APPEARED VIA ZOOM VIDEO CONFERENCE.)
`
`2
`
`FOR PETITIONER:
`
`· · ·Mr. Mark Walters
`· · ·LOWE GRAHAM JONES
`· · ·701 5th Avenue, Suite 4800
`· · ·Seattle, Washington 98104
`
`· · ·Telephone: 206.381.3300
`· · ·E-mail: walters@lowegrahamjones.com
`
`· · · · · · · -and-
`
`· · ·Mr. Tim Schaum
`· · ·DASPIN & AUMENT LLP
`· · ·227 West Monroe Street
`· · ·Chicago, Illinois 60606
`
`· · ·Telephone: 312.258.3792
`· · ·E-mail: tschaum@daspinaument.com
`
`FOR PATENT OWNER:
`
`· · ·Mr. David G. Wille
`· · ·BAKER BOTTS L.L.P.
`· · ·2001 Ross Avenue, Suite 1900
`· · ·Dallas, Texas· 75201-2980
`
`· · ·Telephone: 214.953.6595
`· · ·E-mail: david.wille@bakerbotts.com
`
`ALSO PRESENT:· Kaley Woronicz, Document Technician
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`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 3
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`3
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · INDEX
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`Examination by Mr. Wille ..........................4
`Signature Page· ..................................39
`Court Reporter's Certificate .....................41
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · EXHIBITS
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`EXHIBIT· · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`Exhibit 1005· ·Certification of Translation· · · ·13
`
`Exhibit 2032· ·Dictionnaire Des Techniques Et· · ·19
`· · · · · · · ·Sciences Appliquées,
`· · · · · · · ·Francais/Anglais
`
`Exhibit 2033· ·Google Translation of the Word· · ·18
`· · · · · · · ·"Contour"
`
`Exhibit 2036· ·Jinrong's Invalidity· · · · · · · ·32
`· · · · · · · ·Contentions and
`· · · · · · · ·Non-Infringement Contentions
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`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 4
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`· · · · · · · · · · ·JOHN E. DAWSON,
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`having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
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`4
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`· · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
`
`QUESTIONS BY MR. WILLE:
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Good morning, Mr. Dawson.· I'm David
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`Wille; and I am counsel for MacNeil, IP.· With me is Tim
`
`Shawm today.
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WILLE:· Mr. Walters, just for clarity
`
`on the record, we've agreed that this deposition is
`
`going to be taken in both IPR2020-1139 and 2020-1142.
`
`Is that correct?
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WALTERS:· That is correct.
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WILLE:· Okay.· I think all the
`
`exhibits today may be marked for the 1139, but we will
`
`have parallel ones marked in the 1142 so that we can use
`
`the same exhibit in both.· Is that acceptable?
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WALTERS:· That is.· Thank you.
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WILLE:· Okay.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Returning to Mr. Dawson, please
`
`state your name.
`
`· · A.· ·John Edwin Dawson.
`
`· · Q.· ·Mr. Dawson, where do you reside?
`
`· · A.· ·St. Louis, Missouri.
`
`· · Q.· ·And, Mr. Dawson, you translated the Rabbe
`
`patent application for YITA in this IPR.· Is that
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`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
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`5
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`correct?
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`· · A.· ·Yes, it is.
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`· · Q.· ·Are you being paid for your time today?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·And how much are you being paid?
`
`· · A.· ·We haven't determined that yet.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· What is your standard hourly rate?
`
`· · A.· ·Between 35 and $50.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Have you been deposed before?
`
`· · A.· ·No.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· So you're doing a good job of this so
`
`far, but keep in mind that the court reporter can only
`
`take down what one of us is saying at a time.· So please
`
`try to wait until I've finished my question before you
`
`begin your answer.· And, similarly, I'll do my best to
`
`make sure you've completed your answer before I begin my
`
`next question.· Can we agree to that?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And sometimes it's natural to answer a
`
`question with a nod of the head or a shake of the head
`
`for a yes or no, but you understand you have to answer
`
`audibly today?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And if there's something you don't
`
`understand about a question, please tell me what you
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
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`don't understand about it.· I'll try to rephrase it or
`
`explain it.· Otherwise, I'll assume you understood the
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`6
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`question.· Can we agree to that?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Are you under the influence of any medication
`
`today?
`
`· · A.· ·No.
`
`· · Q.· ·Any reason you can't give full, complete and
`
`accurate testimony today?
`
`· · A.· ·No.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Please give me your education after high
`
`school.
`
`· · A.· ·Two years at -- excuse me.· Stand by.
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`· · · · · · · Two years at Denison University in Ohio
`
`from 1957 to 1959, after which I embarked on a long
`
`series of positions with the government in oceanography,
`
`offshore seismography: Australia, New Zealand, New
`
`Guinea, et cetera.· I lived in Spain for ten years,
`
`returned to the United States in 1980 because my job
`
`experience had very little to do with St. Louis and
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`oceanography, hydrography, et cetera.
`
`· · · · · · · Language ability was what I did have that
`
`was marketable and began translating in 1980 as a
`
`half-owner of a translation agency.· In 1985, I went out
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`on my own as a freelance translator and began
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`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
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`7
`translating documents of general nature from Spanish and
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`French into English and have been doing that ever since.
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`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Where did you obtain your knowledge of
`
`French?
`
`· · A.· ·Two years of college and living in France for a
`
`while.
`
`· · Q.· ·Do you have a degree in French?
`
`· · A.· ·No, I do not.
`
`· · Q.· ·And you indicated you've been translating since
`
`1980, so approximately 41 years?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And how many patents do you think you've
`
`translated in that time?
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`· · A.· ·Several hundred.
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`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you have any special technical
`
`knowledge relating to plastics manufacturing?
`
`· · A.· ·No, although I've done a lot of patents
`
`involving preforms; but no, no particular technical
`
`knowledge.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· When you say you've done a lot of
`
`patents, you mean you've translated a lot of patents
`
`relating to preforms?
`
`· · A.· ·That's correct.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And would those preforms be used in blow
`
`molding?
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`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
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`· · A.· ·Yes.
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`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you have any special knowledge of
`
`8
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`thermoset and thermoplastic materials?
`
`· · A.· ·No, I do not.
`
`· · Q.· ·Do you have any special knowledge in the
`
`fabrication of floor mats or floor trays?
`
`· · A.· ·I do not.
`
`· · Q.· ·Did you make reference to any other
`
`publications when you translated the Rabbe patent
`
`application?
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WALTERS:· I'd just object to form.
`
`· · A.· ·Would you repeat the question, please.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Yeah.· Did you make reference
`
`to any other publications when you translated the Rabbe
`
`patent application?
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WALTERS:· Object to form.· Go ahead
`
`and answer, Mr. Dawson.
`
`· · A.· ·If there was any reference to a publication in
`
`the patent itself -- may I scroll through the patent
`
`that I'm looking at now?
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Sure.
`
`· · A.· ·Usually when there's a reference to a patent
`
`prior art, then I will -- and I don't see any in this
`
`instance.· So no, I do not.
`
`· · Q.· ·Did you personally translate the Rabbe
`
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`9
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`reference?
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`· · A.· ·Yes, I did.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Are there any French dictionaries that
`
`you commonly refer to when translating patents?
`
`· · A.· ·Sure.· Larousse, for example, is the go-to.
`
`There's also the International European -- let me find
`
`it for you here.· It's called Reverso.net.· It's a
`
`standard translator's dictionary that provides options
`
`for translations of various words and phrases as they've
`
`been translated before.· Much of it comes from people,
`
`WIPO.
`
`· · Q.· ·Much of it -- oh, the World Intellectual
`
`Property Organization?
`
`· · A.· ·Exactly.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· So is that a website --
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·-- the Reverso.net?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·And you mentioned a Larousse Dictionary.· Is
`
`that a software-type dictionary, or is that a printed
`
`book?
`
`· · A.· ·I have both.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And what version -- actually, first of
`
`all, let's -- for the court reporter let's spell
`
`Larousse, please.
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`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
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`· · A.· ·L-a-r-o-u-s-s-e.
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`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And what is the title of the software
`
`10
`
`version of the dictionary that you use?
`
`· · A.· ·It simply says Larousse, and it's
`
`larousse.fr.dictionnaires/francais-anglais.· Do you need
`
`that spelled out?
`
`· · Q.· ·Yeah.· Please spell that for the court reporter
`
`because we are going to have some French words today.
`
`It sounds like there were some French words there.· So
`
`please spell each word for the court reporter.
`
`· · A.· ·The first word again is Larousse,
`
`L-a-r-o-u-s-s-e.FR/dictionnaires -- that's
`
`d-i-c-t-i-o-n-n-a-i-r-e-s -- /f-r-a-n-c-a-i-s hyphen
`
`a-n-g-l-a-i-s/f-i-a-b-l-e/33453.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· So is that a website then?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, it is.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And you indicated that you had a printed
`
`version of the Larousse Dictionary as well?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.· A printed version and I have a -- yes, I
`
`do.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And what is the copyright date of the
`
`printed version, or what edition is it?
`
`· · A.· ·1993.
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`· · Q.· ·Is there an edition?· Does it say what edition
`
`that is?
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`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
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`· · A.· ·No.· I don't think it does.· Stand by.
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`· · · · · · · No.· I don't see an edition.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Is the Larousse, both the online and the
`
`printed dictionary that you referred to, a respected
`
`11
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`treatise for translation for translators?
`
`· · A.· ·Very much so.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And dittoo with the Reverso.net website?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.· It's a standard go-to.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Any other dictionaries that you commonly
`
`use when you do translation?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.· The Harraps.· That's H-a-r-r-a-p-s.· It's
`
`a new standard French and English dictionary.· And I'll
`
`get you the -- this is 1981.
`
`· · Q.· ·Is there an edition listed?
`
`· · A.· ·I don't see one.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· So those three.· Is there
`
`any other French-to-English translation dictionaries
`
`that you typically consult when you do translation?
`
`· · A.· ·I have a Le Robert & Collins Super Senior
`
`French/English.· The L-e next word Robert & Collins
`
`Super Senior French/English.· And it is second edition
`
`2000.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And are the Collins and the Harraps
`
`French-to-English dictionaries respected dictionaries
`
`for translation?
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`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
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`12
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`· · A.· ·Very much so.
`
`· · Q.· ·So you've given me four now.· Any other
`
`dictionaries that you commonly refer to when doing
`
`translation?
`
`· · A.· ·Those are primarily the ones.
`
`· · Q.· ·Did you consult any of the four dictionaries
`
`that we've talked about when you did the translation for
`
`the Rabbe reference?
`
`· · A.· ·No.· I consulted the Reverso and the Larousse.
`
`There's one other.· Hold on just a second, and I'll pull
`
`it up.
`
`· · · · · · · It's the IATE European Union terminology.
`
`It's a technical dictionary that covers all of the EU
`
`languages, and I use the French-to-English portion of
`
`it.
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`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Is that a website also?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, it is.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· What is the URL of that website?
`
`· · A.· ·It's IATE.Europa.EU/search/standard/result.
`
`And I guess that was the last search (inaudible).
`
`· · Q.· ·Any other websites or French-to-English
`
`translation materials that you referred to when
`
`translating the Rabbe patent?
`
`· · A.· ·Not that I remember.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall which specific words
`
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`you looked up in any of the references?
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`· · A.· ·I translated this a number of months ago.· So
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`13
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`no, I really don't.
`
`· · · · · · · (Exhibit 1005 marked)
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Okay.· Do you have in front of
`
`you Exhibit 1005, which is your translation as well as
`
`the Rabbe reference?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· So since you have that, I'm not going to
`
`put it up on the screen unless there's some specific
`
`language that like I -- but I think we can discuss it
`
`without putting it up on the screen.· So we do have
`
`somebody here who can put the exhibit up on the screen
`
`just so you know, if you want to point to something.
`
`· · · · · · · Okay.· So you have in front of you your
`
`translation of the Rabbe reference, correct?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·All right.· And it indicates that you signed
`
`the certificate of translation on April 27th, 2020.· Do
`
`you see that?
`
`· · A.· ·No, I don't see that.· That's not on my copy.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WILLE:· So let's bring up then the
`
`first page of Exhibit 1005, please.
`
`· · A.· ·Oh, yes.
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`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Is that your signature on
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`14
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`page 1 of Exhibit 1005?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, it is.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you sign the certificate of
`
`translation on April 27th, 2020?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, I did.
`
`· · Q.· ·Were there multiple drafts of this translation?
`
`· · A.· ·No, not that I know of.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And did you find anything difficult
`
`about the translation?
`
`· · A.· ·Not at all.
`
`· · Q.· ·Is there any place you were unsure of your
`
`translation?
`
`· · A.· ·No.
`
`· · Q.· ·What lawyer did you work with on this
`
`translation?· Who -- strike that.
`
`· · · · · · · Who contacted you to ask you to translate
`
`the Rabbe reference?
`
`· · A.· ·I have a long-time client that dates back to
`
`1999.· It's a translation agency named TransPerfect
`
`based in New York.· They were the ones who contacted me
`
`originally.· They were the ones for whom I did the work
`
`and the ones who paid me.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And then at some point did you talk to
`
`one of the lawyers for YITA?
`
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`· · A.· ·Only on Fri -- was it last Friday just to sort
`
`of give me an idea of what this was going to be about.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· So, in other words, you didn't talk to
`
`YITA's lawyers before you did the translation.· Is that
`
`correct?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· I'm going to ask you to go to page 16 of
`
`Exhibit 1005.
`
`· · A.· ·All right.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Now, I do not speak French; and it will
`
`not do any good for me to attempt to pronounce the
`
`French terms correctly.· So in asking you questions
`
`today, I'm going to refer to what I would call an
`
`English pronunciation of the French word just to
`
`identify the word for you.· Do you understand that?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· So in claim 1 on page 16 of Exhibit 1005
`
`there's a word in the third line "relief," r-e-l-i-e-f.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And that French word, let's go to your
`
`translation on page 6 of Exhibit 1005.
`
`· · A.· ·I don't know which page 6 you have.· My
`
`pagination is different.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· I'm going by the numbering that was in
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
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`16
`the exhibit for the IPR.· So we'll just go by what's on
`
`the screen because this is page 6 that's on the screen.
`
`· · A.· ·Okay.
`
`· · Q.· ·All right.· And is it true that you translated
`
`the word "relief" to "contour"?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, it is.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall where you got that
`
`translation from?
`
`· · A.· ·No, I don't.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Are there other reasonable translations
`
`of the French word "relief"?
`
`· · A.· ·One would be topography; but that's more used
`
`in mapping, for example.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Any other reasonable translations of
`
`relief?
`
`· · A.· ·Well, "relief" as used in English.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· In other words, one reasonable
`
`translation of relief is just the term "relief"?
`
`· · A.· ·It's a possibility, yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Any other reasonable translations of the
`
`French word "relief"?
`
`· · A.· ·I don't think so, not in this context.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Is "relief" a French term you were
`
`familiar with prior to making this translation?
`
`· · A.· ·I think so.
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`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And you can't recall consulting any
`
`dictionary in translating that word "relief."· Is that
`
`17
`
`right?
`
`· · A.· ·As I said, this was how many months ago that I
`
`did this?· It's difficult to remember which words I
`
`looked up and which words I did not.· I may have looked
`
`at that for options, but I opted for contour because it
`
`seems to fit the context the best.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Are there other French words you could
`
`use if you wanted the English word to be contour?
`
`· · A.· ·I would not go there.· I would never translate
`
`into French.· It's not my native language.· The standard
`
`rule of thumb for translators is always only translate
`
`into your native language.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· So your native language is English, and
`
`you're translating from French to English?
`
`· · A.· ·Correct.
`
`· · Q.· ·All right.· So is there a French term that --
`
`are there other French terms that you're aware of that
`
`translates to contour?
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WALTERS:· Object to form.
`
`· · A.· ·I'm sorry?
`
`· · · · · · · THE REPORTER:· Did you say "no"?
`
`· · A.· ·No.· I did not say that.· Not that I know of.
`
`I don't know.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 18
`
`
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Okay.
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WILLE:· I'm going to ask the document
`
`technician to keep Exhibit 1005 handy, but let's put up
`
`18
`
`Exhibit 2033 in the 1139IPR.
`
`· · · · · · · (Exhibit 2033 marked)
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Sir, do you recognize Google
`
`translation Exhibit 2033?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Do you ever use Google Translate?
`
`· · A.· ·No, never.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And one of the reasons you don't use it
`
`is because it doesn't usually give you all the options;
`
`it only gives you the most common translation of the
`
`term, right?
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WALTERS:· Object to form.
`
`· · A.· ·That's true.· And it also has a poor reputation
`
`among translators for providing misleading translations
`
`from time to time.· So I never go there.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Okay.· Okay.· So you see in
`
`Exhibit 2033 that when given the English word "contour"
`
`to translate, Google Translate translated that word to
`
`contour spelled exactly the same way in French.· Do you
`
`see that?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Are you familiar with the term "contour"
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 19
`
`
`
`in French?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And does that term translate to
`
`19
`
`"contour" in English?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WILLE:· Let me ask the document
`
`technician to put up Exhibit 2032.
`
`· · · · · · · (Exhibit 2032 marked)
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· And, sir, Exhibit 2032, we have
`
`the cover on the screen.· This is a technical
`
`French-to-English translation dictionary.· Is that
`
`right?
`
`· · A.· ·Appears to be, yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Are you familiar with the Ernst
`
`dictionary?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, I am.· I have a copy of that myself.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you ever use the Ernst dictionary for
`
`translation?
`
`· · A.· ·Frequently.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And the title of the dictionary is in
`
`French.· Can you tell us what that title means in
`
`English?
`
`· · A.· ·Dictionary of Technologies and Applied
`
`Sciences.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 20
`
`
`
`20
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WILLE:· And in Exhibit 2032, if we can
`
`go to the last page of the exhibit and if we can zoom in
`
`on the definition of contour or, shall we say, the
`
`translation options for contour.· I think you're going
`
`to have to scroll down a little bit there.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Okay, sir.· Is that big enough
`
`for you to read?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.· I can see that.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And is it true that one of the English
`
`translation options for the French word "contour" is the
`
`English word "contour" spelled the same way?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Let's now go back to Exhibit 1005,
`
`please.· And we're going to go back to page 16, which is
`
`the French claims.
`
`· · A.· ·I see that.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Now, claim 2, once again, includes the
`
`French word "relief."· Do you see that?
`
`· · A.· ·I do.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WILLE:· And now let's go -- let's
`
`return back to page 6, please.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Do you see your translation of
`
`claim 2 on page 6?
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 21
`
`
`
`· · A.· ·I do.
`
`· · Q.· ·All right.· And, once again, you translated the
`
`French word "relief" to the English word "contour."· Is
`
`21
`
`that correct?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, it is.
`
`· · Q.· ·And do you believe your translation is accurate
`
`in claim 2?
`
`· · A.· ·I do.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WILLE:· Now let's go to page 13 of
`
`Exhibit 1005, which is the cover page of the Rabbe
`
`reference.· If we can zoom in on the third paragraph on
`
`the left that's partially cut off near the bottom of the
`
`page.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Okay.· Do you see the paragraph
`
`that's numbered 3 there?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· In the second line the French word
`
`"relief" is used again, correct?
`
`· · A.· ·Correct.
`
`· · Q.· ·All right.
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WILLE:· And if we then go to your
`
`translation of that, which is on page 3 of Exhibit 1005.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· And this time you translated
`
`the term to mean "topography."· Is that correct?
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 22
`
`
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· So why did you use a different term on
`
`page 1 of the patent than you did in the claims of the
`
`22
`
`patent?
`
`· · A.· ·I translated the abstract first and used
`
`"topography."· When I got into the description into the
`
`body of the patent, I changed my mind and decided to use
`
`"contour" instead because it seemed more applicable in
`
`that sense that it actually had to fit into and around
`
`curves and follow the contours of the body of the
`
`footwell.
`
`· · · · · · · So from that point on, I translated it as
`
`contour and forgot to go back and change the abstract.
`
`I should have done that.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· So do you believe the word "topography"
`
`actually should be "contour" in the abstract?
`
`· · A.· ·I do.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And would you say as a general rule the
`
`same term should be translated the same in the context
`
`of a particular translation?
`
`· · A.· ·Absolutely.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WILLE:· Now, let's go back to page 16
`
`again of Exhibit 1005.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· In claim 2 -- sorry, in
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 23
`
`
`
`claim 1.· In claim 1 near the end of the
`
`second-to-the-last line there is a French term -- and,
`
`again, I'm not pronouncing it correctly -- but the
`
`French term as I might pronounce it in English is
`
`23
`
`"véhicules"?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·And let's go to your translation of that, which
`
`is back to page 6.
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·And you translated that to "vehicles," correct?
`
`· · A.· ·Correct.
`
`· · Q.· ·Now let's go back to page 16, and let's look at
`
`claim 2.· The term "véhicules" or the term "vehicle"
`
`does not appear in claim 2, correct?
`
`· · A.· ·Correct.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· At the end of that term there is --
`
`sorry.· At the end of that claim there is a term
`
`"l'habitacle."· Do you see that?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`· · Q.· ·A French term.· What does that term mean to
`
`you?
`
`· · A.· ·It means a vehicle interior.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Is there something you used to reach
`
`that translation?
`
`· · A.· ·As I say, that was a long time ago.· I'm sure
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 24
`
`
`
`24
`
`it is.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· But you don't recall what you did to
`
`reach that translation?
`
`· · A.· ·No.· I have no way of recalling that.
`
`· · Q.· ·All right.· Let's look at claim 5 for a second.
`
`Do you see in claim 5 there's a French term "strié,"
`
`s-t-r-i-é?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Let's go look to your translation back to
`
`page 6.· You translated that term to "corrugated."· Do
`
`you see that?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And are there other reasonable
`
`translations of the term "strié"?
`
`· · A.· ·I think so.
`
`· · Q.· ·What are those?
`
`· · A.· ·Ribbed perhaps.· Stand by.
`
`· · · · · · · Striated, striped, corrugated, ribbed,
`
`serrated, grooved, ridged.· All options are all valid.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· So grooved was one option.· Striated was
`
`one option.· Is that correct?
`
`· · A.· ·Correct.· Ribbed.
`
`· · Q.· ·And what else?
`
`· · A.· ·Ribbed.
`
`· · Q.· ·What was the other option?
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 25
`
`
`
`· · A.· ·Ridged, furrowed.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you recall why you chose the term
`
`"corrugated" instead of any of those other options?
`
`· · A.· ·Only because I thought that would be the best
`
`25
`
`in context.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Is "striated" a reasonable translation
`
`in context?
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WALTERS:· Object to form.
`
`· · A.· ·I suppose it would be.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Okay.· And by "context" you
`
`understand I'm talking about the use of the term "strié"
`
`in the Rabbe patent, particularly in claim 5 that we
`
`were just looking at?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And in context would "grooved" be a
`
`reasonable translation of "strié"?
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WALTERS:· Object to form.
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, it would be.· I'm rethinking this
`
`"striated."· It says "marked with long, thin parallel
`
`streaks."· That doesn't seem to describe this device.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Okay.· So, sorry.· Are you
`
`saying "striated" is not a reasonable translation of the
`
`language in claim 5 --
`
`· · A.· ·I wouldn't think so.
`
`· · Q.· ·-- for the word "strié"?
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 26
`
`
`
`· · A.· ·Correct.
`
`· · Q.· ·So let's refer back to the French claim 5 on
`
`26
`
`page 16 of Exhibit 1005.
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·So looking at the use of the term "strié" in
`
`context, would it be a reasonable translation to
`
`translate that language to mean that the bottom is
`
`striated?
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WALTERS:· Object to form.
`
`· · A.· ·I would not think so, no.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Okay.· Would it be a -- sorry.
`
`Okay.
`
`· · · · · · · Would it be a reasonable translation to
`
`translate that portion of claim 5 to mean that the
`
`protection bucket comprises a grooved base?
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WALTERS:· Object to form.
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Sorry.· You talked over one
`
`another there.· What was your answer?
`
`· · A.· ·My answer is yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· All right.· Let's now look at claim 4.
`
`Do you see claim 4 there in the French version, page 16
`
`of Exhibit 1005?
`
`· · A.· ·I do.
`
`· · Q.· ·All right.· And there's a term used in
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 27
`
`
`
`claim 4 -- again, I'm not going to pronounce it
`
`correctly -- but "rebords," r-e-b-o-r-d-s.· Do you see
`
`27
`
`that?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`· · Q.· ·And let's go to your translation of claim 4 on
`
`page 6.· And is it accurate that you translated the word
`
`"rebords," r-e-b-o-r-d-s, in French to flanges in
`
`English?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, it is.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you recall where you got the
`
`"flanges" translation from?
`
`· · A.· ·No, I'm unable to recall that.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Are there other reasonable translation
`
`options for the word "rebords"?
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WALTERS:· Object to form.
`
`· · A.· ·It could also mean edges.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Okay.· Any others?
`
`· · A.· ·I'm sure there are.· I can't think of any right
`
`now.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Is "rebords" a term you were familiar
`
`with prior to making this translation?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And do you believe "flanges" to be an
`
`accurate translation of "rebords"?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 28
`
`
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And your translation has the numeral 4
`
`in parentheses after the term "flanges."· Do you see
`
`28
`
`that?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·What is the significance of that number 4 in
`
`parentheses?
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WALTERS:· Object to form.
`
`· · A.· ·That's how it appears in French claims,
`
`"rebord."· It refers to a particular part of the device.
`
`Yeah.· That's essentially it.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· So the number 4, what is that
`
`referring to?
`
`· · A.· ·It refers to the illustration.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· So, for example, if we look at figure 3
`
`of 5 on page 19, I'll have that put up on the screen so
`
`you can see it.· And there's a device labeled -- or
`
`there's something labeled 4 there.· Do you see that?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· So is that what the numeral 4 is
`
`referring to in your translation of claim 4?
`
`· · A.· ·As a flange, yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· So did you consult the figures then in
`
`translating the word "reboard" to "flange" when you
`
`translated claim 4?
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WALTERS:· Object to form.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 29
`
`
`
`29
`
`· · A.· ·I believe so.· I believe so.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Okay.
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WILLE:· Let me ask the court reporter,
`
`did you get both the objection and the answer?
`
`· · · · · · · THE REPORTER:· Yes, I did.
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WILLE:· Okay.· Thank you.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· And having seen figure 3, do
`
`you believe "flanges" to be an accurate translation for
`
`"rebords" in claim 4?
`
`· · · · · · · MR. WALTERS:· Object to form.
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· Okay.· Let's return back to
`
`page 16 of Exhibit 1005, which is the claims of the
`
`French version of Rabbe.· And the word "rebords" is also
`
`used in claim 6.· Is that correct?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·And do you believe "flanges" is an accurate
`
`translation for the term "rebords" in claim 6?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And let's look at your translation of
`
`claim 6, which is on page 6.· And you, in fact, did
`
`translate the term "rebords" to mean in -- in French to
`
`"flanges" in English in claim 6, correct?
`
`· · A.· ·Right.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 30
`
`
`
`30
`· · · · · · · MR. WILLE:· Now, I would like the document
`
`technician to pull up page 15 of Exhibit 1005.
`
`· · Q.· ·(By Mr. Wille)· And, sir, do you see in line 18
`
`of page 15 of Exhibit 1005 the French word "rebords" is
`
`used again?
`
`· · A.· ·What line again, please?
`
`· · Q.· ·Line 18.
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·All right.· And do you believe "flanges" is an
`
`accurate translation for "rebords" there?
`
`· · A.· ·I'm looking for my translation.· Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And that is, in fact, how you translated
`
`the term on page 15 of Rabbe, correct?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Your translation of that page appears on page 5
`
`of Exhibit 1005.· Is that correct?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And you see you did translate the word
`
`"rebords" in French to "flanges" in English there,
`
`correct?
`
`· · A.· ·Right.
`
`· · Q.· ·All right.· Let's now turn to page 14 of
`
`Exhibit 1005.· Sorry.· Page 13 of Exhibit 1005.
`
`· · · · · · · And do you see in the French version of
`
`Rabbe on the cover page in the paragraph labeled 3 that
`
`MacNeil Exhibit 2040
`Yita v. MacNeil IP, IPR2020-01139
`Page 31
`
`
`
`the word "rebords" is used again there?
`
`· · A.· ·Yes, uh-huh.
`
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Looking at your translation, which is
`
`31
`
`Exhibit 1005 at page 3 --
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`
`· · Q.· ·-- you again translated the French word
`
`"rebords" to mean "flanges," correct?
`
`· · A.· ·Correct.
`
`· · Q.· ·And you believe that translation to be
`
`accurate, correct?
`
`· · A.· ·I do.
`
`· · Q.· ·All right.· Returning to Rabbe page 1 -- sorry.
`
`Let's go to page 14 of Exhibit 1005, which is page 1 of
`
`the French version of Rabbe.· Do you see tha
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