UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`CERTIFIED COPY
`
`WALMART INC.
`Petitioner
`
`Vv.
`
`CARAVAN CANOPY INTERNATIONAL,
`Patent Owner
`
`INC.
`
`Case IPR2020-01026
`
`Patent No. 5,944,040
`
`No. 21-100577
`
`DEPOSITION OF
`
`LANCE GORDON RAKE
`
`APPEARING VIA VIDEOCONFERENCE
`
`JUNE 11, 2021
`
`Reported by:
`LELIA C. HASUIKE
`CSR 11082
`
`S THE SULLIVAN GROUP
`
`OF COURT REPORTERS
`SULLIVANCOURTREPORTERS.COM
`
`PHONE 855.525.3860 | 323.938.8750
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 1 of 218
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 1 of 218
`
`
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`CERTIFIED COPY
`
`WALMART INC.
`Petitioner
`
`Vv.
`
`CARAVAN CANOPY INTERNATIONAL,
`Patent Owner
`
`INC.
`
`Case IPR2020-01026
`
`Patent No. 5,944,040
`
`No. 21-100577
`
`DEPOSITION OF
`
`LANCE GORDON RAKE
`
`APPEARING VIA VIDEOCONFERENCE
`
`JUNE 11, 2021
`
`Reported by:
`LELIA C. HASUIKE
`CSR 11082
`
`S THE SULLIVAN GROUP
`
`OF COURT REPORTERS
`SULLIVANCOURTREPORTERS.COM
`
`PHONE 855.525.3860 | 323.938.8750
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 1 of 218
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 1 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · __________
`·2
`
`·3· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · __________
`·4
`
`·5
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·WALMART INC.
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
`
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
`
`·8· · · · · · · CARAVAN CANOPY INTERNATIONAL, INC.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · __________
`
`10
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2020-01026
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 5,944,040
`12· · · · · · · · · · · · · __________
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16· · · · · · · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF
`
`17· · · · · · · · · · · ·LANCE GORDON RAKE
`
`18· · · · · · · · ·APPEARING VIA VIDEOCONFERENCE
`
`19· · · · · · · · · · · · ·JUNE 11, 2021
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`· · ·Reported by:
`24· ·LELIA C. HASUIKE
`· · ·CSR 11082
`25· ·No. 21-100577
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 2 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · __________
`·2
`
`·3· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · __________
`·4
`
`·5
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·WALMART INC.
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
`
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
`
`·8· · · · · · · CARAVAN CANOPY INTERNATIONAL, INC.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · __________
`
`10
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · · Case IPR2020-01026
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 5,944,040
`12· · · · · · · · · · · · · __________
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17· · · · ·DEPOSITION OF LANCE GORDON RAKE, a witness herein,
`
`18· ·taken on behalf of the Petitioner, all parties appearing
`
`19· ·via videoconference, at 7:02 a.m. Pacific Standard Time,
`
`20· ·Friday, June 11, 2021, before Lelia C. Hasuike,
`
`21· ·CSR 11082.
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 3 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
`
`·2· ·(All parties appearing via videoconference)
`
`·3· ·FOR PETITIONER:
`
`·4· · · · KILPATRICK, TOWNSEND & STOCKTON, LLP
`· · · · · BY:· DAVID REED, ESQ.
`·5· · · · · · ·KATHLEEN R. GEYER, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · ·SAM LEFF, ESQ.
`·6· · · · 1420 Fifth Avenue, Suite 3700
`· · · · · Seattle, Washington· 98101
`·7· · · · (206)516-3094
`· · · · · dreed@kilpatricktownsend.com
`·8
`· · ·FOR PATENT OWNER CARAVAN CANOPY:
`·9
`· · · · · LEWIS ROCA ROTHGERBER CHRISTIE
`10· · · · BY:· KYLE W. KELLAR, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · ·STEVEN J. FRENCH, ESQ.
`11· · · · 655 North Central Avenue, Suite 2300
`· · · · · Glendale, California· 91203
`12· · · · (626)683-4590
`· · · · · kkellar@lrrc.com
`13
`· · ·FOR Z-SHADE CO. LTD AND COSTCO WHOLESALE:
`14
`· · · · · KNOBBE MARTENS
`15· · · · BY:· LAUREN KATZENELLENBOGEN, ESQ.
`· · · · · 2040 Main Street, 14th Floor
`16· · · · Irvine, California· 92614
`· · · · · (949)760-0404
`17· · · · lauren.keller@knobbe.com
`
`18· ·FOR LOWE'S HOME CENTERS, LLC:
`
`19· · · · LOWE'S COMPANIES, INC.
`· · · · · LEGAL DEPARTMENT
`20· · · · BY:· GUILLERMO E. BAEZA, ESQ.
`· · · · · 1000 Lowes Boulevard, Mail Code NB6LG
`21· · · · Mooresville, North Carolina· 28117
`· · · · · (704)758-2862
`22
`· · · · · BROWN WEGNER
`23· · · · BY:· WILLIAM J. BROWN, JR., ESQ.
`· · · · · 2010 Main Street,Suite 1260
`24· · · · Irvine, California· 92614
`· · · · · (949)705-0080
`25· · · · bill@brownwegner.com
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 4 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X
`
`·2· ·WITNESS:· LANCE GORDON RAKE
`
`·3· ·EXAMINATION BY· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`·4· ·MR. REED· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·6, 184
`
`·5· ·MR. KELLAR· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 183
`
`·6
`
`·7
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · E X H I B I T S
`
`·9· ·EXHIBIT· · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`10· ·EX 2032· · · Appendix A Materials Considered· · · · 183
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 5 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· · · · REPORTER REMOTELY FROM ALISO VIEJO, CALIFORNIA
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · ·FRIDAY, JUNE 11, 2021
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ***
`
`·4
`
`·5
`
`·6· · · · ·THE REPORTER:· Good morning.· My name is
`
`·7· ·Lia Hasuike.· I am a certified shorthand reporter with
`
`·8· ·The Sullivan Group of Court Reporters.· I will be
`
`·9· ·swearing in the witness from a remote location.
`
`10· · · · · · · Would counsel please state their appearances.
`
`11· · · · ·MR. REED:· Good morning.· This is David Reed with
`
`12· ·the law firm Kilpatrick, Townsend & Stockton.· I'm here
`
`13· ·on behalf of the petitioner Walmart, Inc.· And I'm
`
`14· ·joined today by my colleague Kate Geyer and Sam Leff who
`
`15· ·is a summer associate with my law firm.
`
`16· · · · ·MR. KELLAR:· And good morning.· This is Kyle
`
`17· ·Kellar with the law firm of Lewis Roca Rothgerber
`
`18· ·Christie on behalf of patent owner Caravan Canopy here
`
`19· ·with associate Steven French of the same law firm.
`
`20· · · · ·MS. KATZENELLENBOGEN:· Good morning.· This is
`
`21· ·Lauren Katzenellenbogen with the law firm of Knobbe
`
`22· ·Martens, and I'm here on behalf of Z-Shade and Costco.
`
`23· · · · ·MR. BAEZA:· Guillermo Baeza, in-house senior
`
`24· ·counsel with Lowe's.
`
`25· · · · ·THE REPORTER:· Would the witness raise his right
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 6 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·hand, please.
`
`·2
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · LANCE GORDON RAKE,
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·HAVING BEEN DULY ADMINISTERED AN
`
`·5· · · · · · · OATH BY THE REPORTER, WAS EXAMINED
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · ·AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
`
`·7
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · · ·-EXAMINATION-
`
`·9· · · · ·BY MR. REED:
`
`10· · · · ·Q· · Good morning, Mr. Rake.
`
`11· · · · ·A· · Good morning.
`
`12· · · · ·Q· · Could you state your full name for the
`
`13· ·record.
`
`14· · · · ·A· · My name is Lance Gordon Rake.
`
`15· · · · ·Q· · And what is your home address?
`
`16· · · · ·A· · 917 Illinois Street in Lawrence, Kansas
`
`17· ·66044.
`
`18· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And can you tell me your current
`
`19· ·employer.
`
`20· · · · ·A· · I am a professor at the University of
`
`21· ·Kansas --
`
`22· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And do you have any other --
`
`23· · · · ·A· · -- also -- also in Lawrence.· I'm sorry.
`
`24· · · · ·Q· · And do you have any other employment?
`
`25· · · · ·A· · No, not at the moment.· I -- you know, I do
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 7 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·legal expert work on -- for myself, and that's it.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q· · And your position as a professor, what school
`
`·3· ·are you a professor in?
`
`·4· · · · ·A· · I am a professor of industrial design in the
`
`·5· ·School of Architecture and Design.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And where are you physically for the
`
`·7· ·deposition today since we're virtual?
`
`·8· · · · ·A· · I am in my office in Chalmers Hall at the
`
`·9· ·university.
`
`10· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And you mentioned that you had -- you
`
`11· ·regularly serve as an expert witness.· So I assume
`
`12· ·you've had your deposition taken before?
`
`13· · · · ·A· · I have, yes.
`
`14· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· How many times have you been deposed?
`
`15· · · · ·A· · I think eight or nine, something like that.
`
`16· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So you're a professional at this. I
`
`17· ·won't go through a lot of the ground rules.· I'll just
`
`18· ·go through a few items.
`
`19· · · · · · · Do you understand that you're testifying
`
`20· ·under oath today as if you were sitting in court?
`
`21· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`22· · · · ·Q· · Is there any reason that you are unable to
`
`23· ·give complete, honest, and truthful testimony today?
`
`24· · · · ·A· · No.
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Feel free to let me know if you need a
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 8 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·break at any point today.· I'll try to stop about every
`
`·2· ·hour or so.· I would caution that you are not permitted
`
`·3· ·by the rules in the Patent Office, this Patent Office
`
`·4· ·proceeding, to confer with your attorney during any
`
`·5· ·break about the substance of your testimony.
`
`·6· · · · · · · Do you understand that?
`
`·7· · · · ·A· · I do understand, yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· If you need any clarification for any
`
`·9· ·questions I may ask today, please feel free to ask me.
`
`10· · · · ·A· · Okay.
`
`11· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· If I ask a question and you answer it
`
`12· ·without asking for clarification, is it fair to say that
`
`13· ·you understood the question?
`
`14· · · · ·A· · I'd say that's fair, yes.
`
`15· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Who have you spoken with about your
`
`16· ·deposition today?
`
`17· · · · ·A· · I've spoken with counsel.· I've spoken to
`
`18· ·Kyle Kellar and Steven French.
`
`19· · · · ·Q· · Have you spoken with anyone other than Kyle
`
`20· ·and Steven, your counsel?
`
`21· · · · ·A· · No.
`
`22· · · · ·Q· · Have you spoken with any professional
`
`23· ·colleagues about the deposition today?
`
`24· · · · ·A· · No.
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · Have you spoken with any professional
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 9 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·colleagues about this matter in general?
`
`·2· · · · ·A· · No.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q· · Did you review any documents to prepare for
`
`·4· ·your deposition today?
`
`·5· · · · ·A· · I did, yes.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And what documents did you review?
`
`·7· · · · ·A· · I reviewed -- I'll probably miss a couple,
`
`·8· ·but I reviewed the reports that I wrote.· I wrote two of
`
`·9· ·them, and I reviewed both of those.· I reviewed the
`
`10· ·patent.· I reviewed prior art references.· I reviewed
`
`11· ·the complaint.· I -- I briefly looked at the report that
`
`12· ·was written as -- well, I forget his name now, the
`
`13· ·expert for Walmart -- Klopp, Dr. Klopp.· I read --
`
`14· · · · ·Q· · Dr. Klopp.
`
`15· · · · ·A· · -- his report.· That's -- I think that's
`
`16· ·probably most of it, yes.
`
`17· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So that's all that you can recall that
`
`18· ·you reviewed --
`
`19· · · · ·A· · That's all I can recall at the moment, yes.
`
`20· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And you mentioned your two reports.
`
`21· ·Actually you submitted three declarations in this
`
`22· ·matter -- is that right? -- a first declaration, a
`
`23· ·supplemental -- a first supplemental declaration, and a
`
`24· ·second declaration?
`
`25· · · · ·A· · Oh, yeah, I -- yeah, I did look at that as
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 10 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·well.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q· · And did you receive a binder of paper
`
`·3· ·documents that I sent you in the mail?
`
`·4· · · · ·A· · You know, I received it.· I didn't open it
`
`·5· ·yet.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q· · Feel free to open it right now.· It might be
`
`·7· ·easier to have that to refer to today rather than try to
`
`·8· ·transmit files electronically and keep track.
`
`·9· · · · ·A· · Yeah.· I wasn't sure what I was -- what you
`
`10· ·wanted --
`
`11· · · · ·MR. REED:· Kyle, did you receive your documents as
`
`12· ·well?
`
`13· · · · ·MR. KELLAR:· Yeah, I did, David.· Thank you.
`
`14· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.
`
`15· · · · ·BY MR. REED:
`
`16· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So if you can turn to Exhibit 2014.
`
`17· ·There's a table of contents in front of your binder.· It
`
`18· ·looks like Exhibit 2014 is at Tab 18.
`
`19· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`20· · · · ·Q· · Is this the first declaration that you've
`
`21· ·submitted in this case?
`
`22· · · · ·A· · Yes, it appears to be, yes.
`
`23· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· If you turn to page 60, which is at
`
`24· ·the end before the appendices, and confirm for me that's
`
`25· ·your signature at the end of the document.
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 11 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So Exhibit 2028 is your first
`
`·3· ·supplemental declaration.· That appears to be at Tab 26.
`
`·4· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And can you confirm for me that the
`
`·6· ·signature on page 4 is your signature?
`
`·7· · · · ·A· · Yes, it is.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And then turn to the next tab.· This
`
`·9· ·is Exhibit 2029.· Can you confirm this is your second
`
`10· ·declaration in this matter?
`
`11· · · · ·A· · Yes, that also appears to be, yes.
`
`12· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And is that your signature on the last
`
`13· ·page of the document?
`
`14· · · · ·A· · Yes, it is.
`
`15· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And these are the three declarations
`
`16· ·you reviewed in preparation for your deposition?
`
`17· · · · ·A· · Yes.· I -- I didn't -- yes, go ahead.· I'm
`
`18· ·sorry.
`
`19· · · · ·Q· · It's all right.· Didn't mean to interrupt
`
`20· ·you.· These are the three?
`
`21· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`22· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And when was the last time that you
`
`23· ·read through your declarations?· Was it yesterday?
`
`24· · · · ·A· · The day before, and I -- I -- I reviewed the
`
`25· ·first and second, but I didn't review the supplemental.
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 12 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·That might have been a week or two ago.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Since reviewing these declarations,
`
`·3· ·did you see any errors that you wanted to correct?
`
`·4· · · · ·A· · I -- I saw a couple, yes.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Can you identify those for me.· Take
`
`·6· ·your time.
`
`·7· · · · ·A· · Oh, yes, in the second declaration, on
`
`·8· ·page 111 --
`
`·9· · · · ·Q· · Okay.
`
`10· · · · ·A· · -- that -- that -- the header or the headline
`
`11· ·that says "There is no reasonable expectation of success
`
`12· ·in combining the Yang and the alleged A.A.P.A.," that
`
`13· ·should have read "in combining Tsai and the alleged
`
`14· ·A.A.P.A."
`
`15· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Anything else?
`
`16· · · · ·A· · Not that I noticed.· And on the first -- what
`
`17· ·was the tab for the first -- my first declaration?
`
`18· · · · ·Q· · I don't recall.· I will check the table of
`
`19· ·contents.
`
`20· · · · · · · 18.
`
`21· · · · ·A· · 18.· Yeah.· And -- let's see.· In
`
`22· ·paragraph 10 -- I'm just in my background -- I talk
`
`23· ·about living overseas and New Zealand for a couple of
`
`24· ·years and then I returned to the United States and began
`
`25· ·teaching at the University of Kansas in 1987 as an
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 13 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·associate professor.· And I actually came here as an
`
`·2· ·assistant professor.· I was promoted a couple years
`
`·3· ·later -- tenured and promoted to associate professor,
`
`·4· ·but I didn't come here as an associate professor.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q· · Okay.
`
`·6· · · · ·A· · And that's all I caught.· I caught those two.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q· · Great.· So with those two corrections, is it
`
`·8· ·fair to say that your declarations, which are
`
`·9· ·Exhibits 2014, 2028, and 2029, contain a complete record
`
`10· ·of the opinions that you're offering in this I.P.R.?
`
`11· · · · ·A· · Yeah.· To the best of my knowledge, yes.
`
`12· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Turn to Exhibit B in 2014,
`
`13· ·Appendix "B," that is.· The last two pages.
`
`14· · · · ·A· · Okay.
`
`15· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Is this a complete list of the
`
`16· ·materials you've considered in this case?
`
`17· · · · ·A· · Yes.· Certainly at the time that I drafted
`
`18· ·that declaration, yes.
`
`19· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· In your second declaration, in
`
`20· ·paragraph 117, you refer to an Appendix "A" that -- you
`
`21· ·reference that you have considered "the additional
`
`22· ·materials identified in the second declaration and
`
`23· ·Appendix 'A' thereto."
`
`24· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`25· · · · ·A· · Which paragraph is that, please?
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 14 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q· · Paragraph 117.
`
`·2· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So Exhibit 2029 doesn't have an
`
`·4· ·Appendix "A."· Where is that list?
`
`·5· · · · ·A· · I don't -- I don't know.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q· · Okay.
`
`·7· · · · ·A· · Yeah.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q· · What was on that list?
`
`·9· · · · ·A· · I have no idea.
`
`10· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So if you look at Appendix "B" of
`
`11· ·Exhibit 2014 that we were looking at previously --
`
`12· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`13· · · · ·Q· · -- can you identify for me any materials
`
`14· ·other than those listed in Appendix "B" of Exhibit 2014
`
`15· ·that you've looked at for this case?
`
`16· · · · ·A· · If there's -- at the time of drafting this --
`
`17· ·I'm not sure when I did that.· In September -- I don't
`
`18· ·remember anything additionally that I reviewed back in
`
`19· ·September.
`
`20· · · · ·Q· · And so -- sure.· So I'm not just limiting my
`
`21· ·question to back in September.· I mean from the
`
`22· ·beginning of your engagement on this matter to the
`
`23· ·present, is there anything other than what's listed here
`
`24· ·that you've looked at?
`
`25· · · · ·A· · I can't recall anything.
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 15 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Have you looked at any actual canopy
`
`·2· ·tents?
`
`·3· · · · ·A· · I have.· Not as a part of this, but just in
`
`·4· ·my normal life, I've seen them, yes.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So you've seen canopies in your normal
`
`·6· ·everyday life, but as part of your expert work for
`
`·7· ·Caravan, you have not looked at any actual canopy tents?
`
`·8· · · · ·A· · Oh, I -- you know, not as part of the work,
`
`·9· ·but I will say like walking from my office home, I walk
`
`10· ·past the stadium.· During football games, they have some
`
`11· ·tents -- you know, canopy tents up, and I -- I notice
`
`12· ·them.
`
`13· · · · · · · I didn't notice like who made them or what.
`
`14· ·But, you know, yeah, it was while I was doing this.· And
`
`15· ·you still encounter them at a farmer's market or
`
`16· ·something.· So I'm -- I'm noticing that they're there,
`
`17· ·but I didn't notice anything specifically that I put
`
`18· ·into my reports.
`
`19· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So you didn't study their structure or
`
`20· ·anything of that nature, identify who made those
`
`21· ·canopies?
`
`22· · · · ·A· · No, I didn't identify any manufacturers, for
`
`23· ·sure.
`
`24· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So paragraph 5 of your declaration --
`
`25· · · · ·A· · Of my first --
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 16 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q· · -- stated that you're being -- yeah, so of
`
`·2· ·your first declaration, paragraph 5 states that you are
`
`·3· ·being compensated at your standard hourly rate.
`
`·4· · · · · · · What is that rate?
`
`·5· · · · ·A· · $300 an hour.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q· · What's the total amount you've been paid to
`
`·7· ·date?
`
`·8· · · · ·MR. KELLAR:· Objection.· Outside the scope.
`
`·9· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I -- I don't know how much I've been
`
`10· ·paid to date.
`
`11· · · · ·BY MR. REED:
`
`12· · · · ·Q· · Can you provide an estimate?
`
`13· · · · ·MR. KELLAR:· Same objection.
`
`14· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· No, I -- again, I don't really know.
`
`15· ·And I'm going back -- like the original declaration was
`
`16· ·in September.· I'm sure I submitted an invoice, but I
`
`17· ·don't know what it was.· And then -- and, yeah, I
`
`18· ·wouldn't know.· I'd really need to guess.
`
`19· · · · ·BY MR. REED:
`
`20· · · · ·Q· · How many hours have you worked on this
`
`21· ·matter, on this I.P.R. in total?
`
`22· · · · ·A· · Yeah, I wouldn't know.· If I knew how much I
`
`23· ·got paid, I would get a good idea the hours I worked.
`
`24· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So turn to page 63 of your -- of
`
`25· ·Exhibit 2014, your first declaration.· This is
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 17 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·Appendix "A," which is your C.V.
`
`·2· · · · · · · And can you confirm this is your most
`
`·3· ·up-to-date C.V.
`
`·4· · · · ·A· · Yes.· Again, that was in September last year.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So this is your C.V. as of September
`
`·6· ·of last year?
`
`·7· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q· · And have there been any relevant updates to
`
`·9· ·this C.V.?
`
`10· · · · ·A· · There's some things I've included.· I don't
`
`11· ·know that they're relevant to the case.· I've had
`
`12· ·project work that I was doing in Nepal, got accepted for
`
`13· ·the Venice Biennale that's going on right now in Venice.
`
`14· ·That's a big deal for me.· But it's not about tents or
`
`15· ·being a professor.· But that's been added to my C.V.
`
`16· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So you don't have any other relevant
`
`17· ·materials to add that would be relevant to this case?
`
`18· · · · ·A· · I don't -- I don't think so.
`
`19· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Your education is listed here on
`
`20· ·page 63.· Do you see that?
`
`21· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`22· · · · ·Q· · And you have a bachelor of fine arts degree
`
`23· ·in industrial design?
`
`24· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And you have a master's degree in
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 18 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·industrial design?
`
`·2· · · · ·A· · That's correct.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And you do not have a Ph.D.; is that
`
`·4· ·correct?
`
`·5· · · · ·A· · That's correct.· Until recently they really
`
`·6· ·haven't offered Ph.D.'s in my field.· So a master's
`
`·7· ·degree is considered a terminal degree in industrial
`
`·8· ·design.· But there's -- there's more and more Ph.D.
`
`·9· ·programs out there, so I think that will change.
`
`10· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And you do not have any degree in
`
`11· ·mechanical engineering; is that right?
`
`12· · · · ·A· · No.· I was a visiting professor in the
`
`13· ·mechanical engineering department at Kathmandu
`
`14· ·University, but I was mostly involved teaching design to
`
`15· ·the students there.
`
`16· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So you don't have a degree, though, in
`
`17· ·mechanical engineering?
`
`18· · · · ·A· · No, I don't.
`
`19· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And you said at the beginning of the
`
`20· ·deposition that you teach -- you now teach in the
`
`21· ·Architecture and Design School at the University of
`
`22· ·Kansas; right?
`
`23· · · · ·A· · That's correct, yes.
`
`24· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And between 1987 and 2005, you taught
`
`25· ·in the School of Fine Arts also at the University of
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 19 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·Kansas; is that correct?
`
`·2· · · · ·A· · That's correct.· The School of Fine Arts was
`
`·3· ·basically dissolved by the provost at that time.· So the
`
`·4· ·departments that were in there, that were in the school
`
`·5· ·included music and fine arts programs and design
`
`·6· ·programs.· So design programs went to architecture,
`
`·7· ·music started its own school, and art went to the
`
`·8· ·college.· So we -- you know, we got dispersed.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So you've effectively taught in the
`
`10· ·same design department at Kansas since 1987?
`
`11· · · · ·A· · That's correct.
`
`12· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· You've never been a professor in the
`
`13· ·engineering school -- is that correct? -- at Kansas?
`
`14· · · · ·A· · No, I have not.
`
`15· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And you never taught engineering
`
`16· ·courses at Kansas?
`
`17· · · · ·A· · Well, we teach -- we teach studios which
`
`18· ·include -- in industrial design, our products are
`
`19· ·usually prototyped and tested.· So they have to be
`
`20· ·developed mechanically or electronically to the point
`
`21· ·that they can be prototyped and tested.· So some of
`
`22· ·those principles are important, and I -- I teach those.
`
`23· · · · · · · I wouldn't say it was an engineering course,
`
`24· ·but I would teach engineering mechanical and ergonomic
`
`25· ·principles here.· I have taught an ergonomics class, but
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 20 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·very occasionally.· We generally try to incorporate all
`
`·2· ·those things into our studios.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So those courses were not engineering
`
`·4· ·school courses; correct?
`
`·5· · · · ·A· · Not engineering school, no.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q· · Right.· So you haven't taught any engineering
`
`·7· ·courses at Kansas?
`
`·8· · · · ·A· · No.· I was just trying to make the
`
`·9· ·distinction between teaching principles and teaching
`
`10· ·courses.
`
`11· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So looking at page 63, it states that
`
`12· ·recently your research efforts have been focused towards
`
`13· ·using design to create sustainable craft-based
`
`14· ·enterprises in rural communities in the U.S., Africa,
`
`15· ·Nepal, and India.
`
`16· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`17· · · · ·A· · I see that, yes.
`
`18· · · · ·Q· · Is that an accurate description of your
`
`19· ·recent research efforts?
`
`20· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`21· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· And looking through your C.V., it
`
`22· ·seems like you do an awful lot of work with bamboo and
`
`23· ·with bicycles.· I see a bicycle behind you.
`
`24· · · · · · · Can you tell me about that.
`
`25· · · · ·A· · Yeah.· You can see behind me there's -- there
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 21 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·is a bamboo bicycle.· There's also some bamboo
`
`·2· ·skateboards.· So I -- I began some years ago in rural
`
`·3· ·Alabama seeing what I could do as a designer to make an
`
`·4· ·impact on a rural community.· And since I generally
`
`·5· ·design products, I thought that they could use local
`
`·6· ·resources to make things that they could sell locally or
`
`·7· ·even regionally or even nationally.
`
`·8· · · · · · · And what they had in Alabama was a lot of
`
`·9· ·bamboo.· So I became more familiar with that material
`
`10· ·and then did a lot of experiments over time with how you
`
`11· ·could use bamboo in traditional ways but then also using
`
`12· ·bamboo as a fiber in a composite construction, for
`
`13· ·instance.
`
`14· · · · · · · So like the skateboards are carbon fiber,
`
`15· ·Kevlar, sandwich laminates.· It's with bamboo but, you
`
`16· ·know, it's kind of mixed in with materials.
`
`17· · · · · · · The bicycle behind me has carbon fiber lugs
`
`18· ·as well as the -- it's kind of a composite, too, that's
`
`19· ·bamboo and woven -- woven bamboo and carbon fiber.
`
`20· · · · · · · So anyway, I got interested in that there,
`
`21· ·and I took that to South Africa where I was working with
`
`22· ·people that do weaving as well as woodwork and a little
`
`23· ·bit of bamboo.· So we're trying to combine those and,
`
`24· ·again, make products that people could -- that they
`
`25· ·could sell for more money than what they make.
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 22 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · That eventually took me to India where I
`
`·2· ·worked at I.I.T. Bombay, which is -- the Indian
`
`·3· ·Institute of Technology in Bombay is probably the most
`
`·4· ·prestigious engineering school and technology school in
`
`·5· ·India, which is, of course, a nation of engineers.· So
`
`·6· ·it was great to be there.· But they also have connection
`
`·7· ·with bamboo and bamboo craft people.· So I just got
`
`·8· ·going and did more.
`
`·9· · · · · · · In Nepal, I worked with an architect there
`
`10· ·who does beautiful buildings, bamboo and rammed earth,
`
`11· ·and so -- so I then in this time -- I didn't start off
`
`12· ·trying to be a bamboo guy, but using that as -- you
`
`13· ·know, as a tool, I guess, to get into really trying to
`
`14· ·allow local craftspeople to make a living and encourage
`
`15· ·an expansion of what you could do with bamboo as a
`
`16· ·material.
`
`17· · · · · · · Sorry about the long answer.
`
`18· · · · ·Q· · No, thank you for that.
`
`19· · · · · · · You didn't start off being -- trying to be a
`
`20· ·bamboo guy, but it sounds like you've become a bamboo
`
`21· ·guy.
`
`22· · · · ·A· · Yeah.· I'm -- I'm a believer now, yeah.
`
`23· · · · ·Q· · Can you turn to paragraph 12 of your first
`
`24· ·declaration, Exhibit 2014.
`
`25· · · · · · · You discuss some work you did in 2005 for --
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 23 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A· · Wait a minute.· Can you -- can you point me
`
`·2· ·again?
`
`·3· · · · ·Q· · Paragraph 12 of your first declaration.
`
`·4· · · · ·A· · Okay.· Yes.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So here you are describing some work
`
`·6· ·you did in 2005 for Wenzel.· Is that right?
`
`·7· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q· · And you state that you -- you led a design
`
`·9· ·team on a project titled "New Product Ideas for Family
`
`10· ·Camping Tents."
`
`11· · · · ·A· · That's correct.
`
`12· · · · ·Q· · And you further state that you explored new
`
`13· ·configurations for family tents for improved usability.
`
`14· · · · ·A· · Yes.
`
`15· · · · ·Q· · Can you describe for me what that project
`
`16· ·entailed.
`
`17· · · · ·A· · I was the director of our Center for Design
`
`18· ·Research where we do -- we do project-based research
`
`19· ·for -- for regional industries.· In this case Wenzel
`
`20· ·is -- or at least at the time they were a
`
`21· ·St. Louis-based company, did a lot of camping gear
`
`22· ·and -- particularly in that family camping category.
`
`23· ·And they funded a project to -- to have me and my
`
`24· ·students look at this -- this subject trying to do new
`
`25· ·product ideas, which is trying to do -- you know, look
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 24 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·at family camping tents that existed at the time and see
`
`·2· ·what you could do that would make -- you know, make some
`
`·3· ·innovation.
`
`·4· · · · · · · And so that can be in a lot of different
`
`·5· ·ways.· It might be an innovative structure, but it could
`
`·6· ·also be, you know, innovative in, you know, materials
`
`·7· ·that are being used or, you know, just other things.
`
`·8· ·Just trying to find opportunities that exist that
`
`·9· ·haven't really been looked at.
`
`10· · · · · · · So it's -- it was mostly research, but then
`
`11· ·we did do design and had, I think, four designs
`
`12· ·ultimately that were sent to South or Southeast Asia to
`
`13· ·get prototyped and got sent back.· And we, you know,
`
`14· ·again tested those prototypes that came back to see the
`
`15· ·efficacy in what we were trying to do.
`
`16· · · · · · · Again, it was 15 years ago, but it was a good
`
`17· ·project.
`
`18· · · · ·Q· · You said you were leading a group of students
`
`19· ·in that project?
`
`20· · · · ·A· · Yeah, but -- I'm sorry.· Yes, like about half
`
`21· ·of the students at that time were undergraduate students
`
`22· ·and half were graduate students.· We usually had a
`
`23· ·couple of grad students from Sweden and then a couple of
`
`24· ·our own.
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · And different groups of students were sort of
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 25 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·working on the different designs?
`
`·2· · · · ·A· · They were -- they were working in teams.· We
`
`·3· ·always did that.· But I don't remember specifically how
`
`·4· ·they were broken up.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q· · Do you recall any specific designs that came
`
`·6· ·out of that work by those students?
`
`·7· · · · ·A· · Yeah.· Off that -- off the top of my head,
`
`·8· ·no.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Did any of the designs involve
`
`10· ·canopies, like tailgating canopies?
`
`11· · · · ·A· · I don't remember anything being thought of
`
`12· ·like that, but it -- something could have had a similar
`
`13· ·function.· So I'm not sure.
`
`14· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· Other than this project for Wenzel, do
`
`15· ·you have any other experience with designing tents?
`
`16· · · · ·A· · As -- as a student.· So this would have been
`
`17· ·fully 50 years ago now.· As a student, I designed a
`
`18· ·portable disaster shelter that was meant to be something
`
`19· ·that could have been airdropped into a place.
`
`20· · · · · · · And it was -- what I came up with was kind of
`
`21· ·a -- kind of a tent, I guess.· I -- I remember the
`
`22· ·structure being like a -- like a polypropylene foam mat
`
`23· ·and a -- you know, a nylon canopy, but the mat -- we
`
`24· ·were trying to use the memory of that material, that
`
`25· ·polypropylene foam to expand out and be sort of shaped
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 26 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·by the -- by the fabric.
`
`·2· · · · · · · That was -- that was the idea.· It didn't
`
`·3· ·really work as well as I intended, but I remember doing
`
`·4· ·it.· I --
`
`·5· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So anything -- sorry.· Go ahead.
`
`·6· · · · ·A· · You know, I grew up in Wisconsin, so I -- you
`
`·7· ·know, and Boy Scouts, and I went camping every month for
`
`·8· ·years.· So I'm pretty familiar with tents of all -- of a
`
`·9· ·lot of different scales and utilities, so -- but I -- I
`
`10· ·didn't design them.· I just experienced them.
`
`11· · · · ·Q· · Got it.· Do you personally own a canopy?
`
`12· · · · ·A· · I personally owned a tent that is designed to
`
`13· ·attach to the tailgate of a small S.U.V. or my Buick
`
`14· ·Roadmaster station wagon.
`
`15· · · · ·Q· · Okay.· So not a canopy of the type we're
`
`16· ·discussing in this case?
`
`17· · · · ·A· · Not -- not really.· It's a kind of a cube
`
`18· ·configuration.
`
`19· · · · ·Q· · That fits in the back of an S.U.V. or pickup
`
`20· ·truck?
`
`21· · · · ·A· · They can back up to it.· Right?· So you can
`
`22· ·use the inside of that --
`
`23· · · · ·Q· · Got it.
`
`24· · · · ·A· · -- vehicle as part of your storage space.
`
`25· · · · ·Q· · Have you created any physical or computerized
`
`Petitioner Walmart Inc.
`Exhibit 1024 - Page 27 of 218
`
`
`
`·1· ·models as part of your analysis in this case?
`
`·2· · · · ·A·
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