1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`---o0o---
`
` APPLE, INC.,
`
` vs.
`
` COREPHOTONICS, LTD.,
`
` )
` )
`Petitioner, )
` )
` ) Case No.
` ) IPR2020-00905
` ) IPR2020-00906
` )
`Patent Owner. ) U.S. PATENT
` ) 10,225,479
`
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` 3
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`13
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`14 CONFIDENTIAL TRANSCRIPT, ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY
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`15 ZOOM VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF FREDO DURAND, PH.D.
`
` JANUARY 26, 2021
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`23
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`24 BALINDA DUNLAP, CSR 10710, RPR, CRR, RMR
` 470030
`
`25
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 1
`
`
`
` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`---o0o---
`
` APPLE, INC.,
`
` vs.
`
` COREPHOTONICS, LTD.,
`
` )
` )
`Petitioner, )
` )
` ) Case No.
` ) IPR2020-00905
` ) IPR2020-00906
` )
`Patent Owner. ) U.S. PATENT
` ) 10,225,479
`
`
` 3
`
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
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` 7
`
` 8
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` 9
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`14 CONFIDENTIAL TRANSCRIPT, ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY
`
`15 ZOOM VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF FREDO DURAND, PH.D.
`
` JANUARY 26, 2021
`
`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
`
`23
`
`24 BALINDA DUNLAP, CSR 10710, RPR, CRR, RMR
` 470030
`
`25
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 1
`
`
`
` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` 3 ---o0o---
`
` 4
`
` 5
`
` 6
` APPLE, INC., )
` 7 )
` Petitioner, )
` 8 )
` vs. ) Case No.
` 9 ) IPR2020-00905
` COREPHOTONICS, LTD., ) IPR2020-00906
`10 )
` Patent Owner. ) U.S. PATENT
`11 ) 10,225,479
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
` ---o0o---
`15
` TUESDAY, JANUARY 26, 2021
`16
` ZOOM VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF FREDO DURAND, PH.D.
`17
` CONFIDENTIAL TRANSCRIPT, ATTORNEYS' EYES ONLY
`18
` ---o0o---
`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
` REPORTER: BALINDA DUNLAP, CSR 10710, RPR, CRR, RMR
`25
`
`2
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 2
`
`
`
` 1 A P P E A R A N C E S
`
` 2 ---o0o---
`
` 3
` FOR THE PETITIONER:
` 4
` HAYNES and BOONE, LLP
` 5 600 Congress Avenue, Suite 1300
` Austin, Texas 78701
` 6 BY: HONG SHI, ESQ.
` (512) 867-8400
` 7 hong.shi@haynesboone.com
`
` 8 HAYNES and BOONE, LLP
` 6000 Headquarters Drive, Suite 200
` 9 Plano, Texas 75024
` BY: MICHAEL S. PARSONS, ESQ.
`10 (972) 739-8611
` michael.parsons@haynesboone.com
`11
` COOLEY LLP
`12 3175 Hanover Street
` Palo Alto, California 94304-1130
`13 BY: PRIYA B. VISWANATH, ESQ.
` (650) 849-7023
`14 pviswanath@cooley.com
`
`15
` FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`16
` RUSS, AUGUST & KABAT
`17 12424 Wilshire Boulevard, 12th Floor
` Los Angeles, California 90025
`18 BY: NEIL A. RUBIN, ESQ.
` (310) 826-7474
`19 nrubin@raklaw.com
`
`20
` ALSO PRESENT:
`21
` Phillip Knowles, Barkley Court Reporters
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`3
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 3
`
`
`
` 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION
` ---o0o---
` 2
`
` 3 FREDO DURAND, PH.D. PAGE
`
` 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. RUBIN 6
`
` 5
`
` 6
` INDEX OF EXHIBITS
` 7 ---o0o---
`
` 8 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`
` 9 1001 U.S. Patent No. 10,225,479 19
`
`10 1003 Declaration of Fredo Durand, Ph.D., 9
` In IPR2020-00905 and 00906
`11
` 1005 United States Patent No. 25
`12 7,859,588
`
`13 1012 English Translation and Japanese 47
` Original Tex for the Kawamura
`14 Patent
`
`15 1013 Book Titled "Computer Vision: 68
` Algorithms and Applications"
`16 By Richard Szeliski
`
`17 1015 English Translation and 25
` Japanese Original Text for
`18 the Konno Patent
`
`19 1021 Declaration of José Sasián, Ph.D. 9
`
`20 1026 United States Patent No. 56
` 5,546,236
`21
` 2002 Slide Presentation Titled 33
`22 "Photography 101"
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`4
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 4
`
`
`
` 1 REMOTE VIA ZOOM, CALIFORNIA, JANUARY 26, 2021
`
` 2 ---o0o---
`
` 3 BE IT REMEMBERED that on Tuesday, the 26th
`
` 4 day of January 2021, commencing at the hour of 7:38,
`
` 5 a.m. thereof, remote via Zoom, California, before
`
` 6 me, Balinda Dunlap, a Certified Shorthand Reporter
`
` 7 in and for the County of San Francisco, State of
`
` 8 California, remotely appeared:
`
` 9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning, Counsel.
`
`07:38 10 My name is Phillip Knowles. I am your videographer
`
`11 and host, associated with Barkley Court Reporters,
`
`12 located at 201 California Street, Suite 375, San
`
`13 Francisco, California 94111.
`
`14 The date today is Tuesday, January 26th,
`
`07:38 15 2021, and the time is approximately 7:38 a.m.
`
`16 Pacific Standard Time.
`
`17 This deposition is taking place remotely
`
`18 via Zoom in the matter of Apple Inc. versus
`
`19 Corephotonics LTD, with Case No. IPR-2020-00905,
`
`07:39 20 Patent No. 10,000 -- sorry -- 10,225,479.
`
`21 This is the videotaped deposition of
`
`22 Dr. Durand.
`
`23 Will counsels for the parties please
`
`24 identify themselves now.
`
`07:39 25 MR. RUBIN: Neil Rubin of Russ, August &
`
`5
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 5
`
`
`
` 1 Kabat representing the patent owner, Corephotonics
`
` 2 Limited.
`
` 3 MS. SHI: Hong Shi from Haynes and Boone
`
` 4 representing Petitioner and the witness. With me
`
`07:39 5 is Michael Parsons, also from Haynes and Boone,
`
` 6 representing Petitioner and the witness.
`
` 7 Priya Viswanath of Cooley LLP, also on
`
` 8 behalf of Apple, will be with us with -- for
`
` 9 portions of the deposition.
`
`07:39 10 I would like to make one correction. This
`
`11 is -- in addition to the case number you provided,
`
`12 this deposition is for two IPR cases, actually.
`
`13 Those case numbers are 2020-00905 and 00906.
`
`14 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.
`
`07:40 15 The court reporter may now swear in the
`
`16 witness and make a statement for the record.
`
`17 FRÉDO DURAND, PH.D.
`
`18 called as a witness by the Patent Owner,
`
`19 having been sworn to tell the truth, the whole
`
`07:40 20 truth, and nothing but the truth, was examined and
`
`21 testified as follows:
`
`22 EXAMINATION BY MR. RUBIN
`
`23 Q. Good morning, Dr. Durand.
`
`24 A. Good morning.
`
`07:40 25 Q. So you were deposed last week in two other
`
`6
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 6
`
`
`
` 1 IPRs brought by Apple against Corephotonics; is
`
` 2 that right?
`
` 3 A. Yes.
`
` 4 Q. So you're familiar with the deposition
`
`07:41 5 process at this point?
`
` 6 A. Familiar enough.
`
` 7 Q. All right. Do you have any questions
`
` 8 about the deposition process before we get started?
`
` 9 A. No, I don't.
`
`07:41 10 Q. And as with last time, we'll be discussing
`
`11 various exhibits from -- in these IPRs, and I'll be
`
`12 sharing PDFs of the exhibits using the chat
`
`13 function in Zoom and sharing them on the screen.
`
`14 You feel comfortable accessing the exhibits that
`
`07:41 15 way?
`
`16 A. Yes.
`
`17 Q. And did you have any difficulties with how
`
`18 the deposition was conducted last week from a
`
`19 technical standpoint?
`
`07:41 20 A. That one, things were slower at
`
`21 downloading some of the files, but hopefully we'll
`
`22 manage.
`
`23 Q. Okay. And is there any reason that you
`
`24 are aware of that you can't give full and accurate
`
`07:42 25 testimony here today?
`
`7
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 7
`
`
`
` 1 A. No.
`
` 2 Q. Not suffering from any illness or taking
`
` 3 any medication that would affect your memory --
`
` 4 A. No.
`
`07:42 5 Q. -- or your ability to understand and
`
` 6 answer questions?
`
` 7 So, you know, as we -- as I mentioned last
`
` 8 week, it is important, in order that we have a good
`
` 9 record, that we try to avoid talking over each
`
`07:42 10 other. So do try to wait until I have finished
`
`11 asking my question before you start your answer.
`
`12 I'll try to do the same, okay?
`
`13 A. Okay.
`
`14 Q. And you recall that it's a rule in this --
`
`07:43 15 in the rules governing this deposition that during
`
`16 breaks you are not allowed to have any conversation
`
`17 with counsel for Apple or with anyone else about
`
`18 your testimony or about questions I asked or that
`
`19 you expect that I will ask unless it's specifically
`
`07:43 20 to determine whether there's a privilege at issue.
`
`21 Do you understand that?
`
`22 A. Yes, I do.
`
`23 Q. And also, if counsel for Apple objects to
`
`24 one of my questions, you understand you are still
`
`07:43 25 required to answer the question unless specifically
`
`8
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 8
`
`
`
` 1 instructed not to?
`
` 2 A. Yes, I do.
`
` 3 Q. Okay. So in the chat function, you should
`
` 4 see two documents that are both called Exhibit
`
`07:43 5 1003, and then another document that's called
`
` 6 Exhibit 1021.
`
` 7 (Previously marked Exhibit No. 1003
`
` 8 for identification.)
`
` 9 (Previously marked Exhibit No. 1021
`
`07:44 10 for identification.)
`
`11 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: Have you had an opportunity
`
`12 to download those?
`
`13 A. Yes.
`
`14 (Discussion off the record.)
`
`07:44 15 MS. SHI: Can we go off record?
`
`16 MR. RUBIN: Yes, please.
`
`17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now going off
`
`18 record at 7:44 a.m.
`
`19 (Whereupon a recess was taken.)
`
`07:46 20 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now going back
`
`21 on the record at 7:46 a.m. Pacific Standard Time.
`
`22 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: So, Professor Durand, I
`
`23 think I had asked you certainly before we went off
`
`24 the record whether you had had the opportunity to
`
`07:47 25 download the three PDFs that I have shared in the
`
`9
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 9
`
`
`
` 1 chat room?
`
` 2 A. Yes, I have downloaded them.
`
` 3 Q. Okay. So on your screen you should see
`
` 4 Exhibit 1003 in IPR2020-00905.
`
`07:47 5 Do you recognize that as -- as your
`
` 6 declaration in that IPR?
`
` 7 A. Yes. It appears to be my declaration.
`
` 8 Q. And you're prepared to answer questions
`
` 9 about this declaration --
`
`07:47 10 A. Yes.
`
`11 Q. -- today? All right. And so -- all
`
`12 right.
`
`13 And you should also see on your screen now
`
`14 another document that's also Exhibit 1003, but this
`
`07:48 15 is in IPR2020-00906.
`
`16 Do you recognize this as another
`
`17 declaration that you submitted in that IPR?
`
`18 A. Yes, I recognize it.
`
`19 Q. Okay. And so both of these two
`
`07:48 20 declarations that were the subject of today's
`
`21 deposition relate to the same Corephotonics patent,
`
`22 10,225,479; would you agree?
`
`23 A. Yes.
`
`24 Q. So we can't use the patent number to
`
`07:49 25 distinguish between them. I will plan to refer to
`
`10
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 10
`
`
`
` 1 the first declaration we looked at as the
`
` 2 declaration from the 905 IPR and the second
`
` 3 declaration we looked at as the declaration in the
`
` 4 906 IPR.
`
`07:49 5 Well, does that -- does that work for you
`
` 6 as a way to distinguish the two?
`
` 7 A. It sounds good.
`
` 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Mr. Rubin, is there any
`
` 9 way you can turn your volume up a teeny bit?
`
`07:50 10 (Discussion off the record.)
`
`11 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: Are you aware of any errors
`
`12 or things that you would like to correct in either
`
`13 of these two declarations, the declaration from the
`
`14 905 IPR or the declaration from the 906 IPR?
`
`07:50 15 A. I think there's a tiny typo of a
`
`16 "principle" that should be "principal," but -- but
`
`17 nothing major, yeah.
`
`18 Q. Okay. So aside from using the wrong
`
`19 spelling of "principle," are there any other --
`
`07:50 20 A. Yeah, any of the -- oh, sorry.
`
`21 Q. Please go ahead.
`
`22 A. And I don't even remember which one was
`
`23 written instead of which one, but yes, the usual --
`
`24 the usual confusion.
`
`07:51 25 Q. Okay. And aside from that, using the
`
`11
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 11
`
`
`
` 1 wrong spelling of "principle," are there any other
`
` 2 errors that you are aware of in either of these two
`
` 3 declarations?
`
` 4 A. No, I am not aware of any other error.
`
`07:51 5 Q. Okay. The other -- or the third document
`
` 6 that I shared using the chat function is on the
`
` 7 screen now. It is Exhibit 1021, titled
`
` 8 "Declaration of José Sasián, Ph.D."
`
` 9 And do you recognize this document?
`
`07:52 10 A. Yes, I do.
`
`11 Q. And did you rely on this same declaration
`
`12 in both of the IPRs concerning the '479 patent?
`
`13 A. Let me double-check. There is only one
`
`14 declaration from Dr. Sasián that I relied upon.
`
`07:52 15 But I believe -- let's see. I think -- yes.
`
`16 Q. And what did you rely on Dr. Sasián for?
`
`17 A. Dr. Sasián is an expert in optics and lens
`
`18 design, and so I relied on his expertise in this
`
`19 area.
`
`07:53 20 Q. Do you have experience designing lenses?
`
`21 A. I do not have experience designing
`
`22 compound lenses. I do have some experience with
`
`23 projects that require the design of optics.
`
`24 Q. As indicated, for example, on Page 2 of
`
`07:53 25 his declaration in the table of contents,
`
`12
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 12
`
`
`
` 1 Dr. Sasián did some analysis using the Zemax
`
` 2 software.
`
` 3 Are -- have you used Zemax?
`
` 4 A. I don't think I have used it personally,
`
`07:53 5 but I have certainly supervised Ph.D. students and
`
` 6 postdocs who have used it. I may have played with
`
` 7 it a little bit.
`
` 8 Q. But you wouldn't have the personal
`
` 9 experience to do the analysis that Dr. Sasián
`
`07:54 10 performed using the Zemax software; is that right?
`
`11 MS. SHI: Objection; form.
`
`12 THE WITNESS: I feel very confident in
`
`13 Dr. Sasián's analysis. I probably don't have
`
`14 enough experience with the software myself to do
`
`07:54 15 what he's done directly, but -- but I certainly
`
`16 felt more comfortable having an expert who has
`
`17 designed lenses before offer his support of these
`
`18 points.
`
`19 THE REPORTER: Offer his support of what?
`
`07:55 20 THE WITNESS: Of these points.
`
`21 THE REPORTER: Thank you.
`
`22 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: So did you ever discuss
`
`23 Dr. Sasián's analysis with him?
`
`24 A. I have not discussed directly with
`
`07:56 25 Dr. Sasián.
`
`13
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 13
`
`
`
` 1 Q. So when you say you have not discussed
`
` 2 directly with Dr. Sasián, have you discussed it
`
` 3 indirectly or -- well, yeah, why did you qualify
`
` 4 the answer that way?
`
`07:56 5 MS. SHI: Objection; form.
`
` 6 THE WITNESS: Because I have read,
`
` 7 obviously, thoroughly his report, and so I -- I
`
` 8 feel very comfortable that I understand his
`
` 9 analysis, but I haven't spoken with him.
`
`07:56 10 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: Have you ever spoken with
`
`11 Dr. Sasián?
`
`12 A. I don't believe I have.
`
`13 Q. Did you know who Dr. Sasián was before you
`
`14 worked on this case?
`
`07:57 15 A. I did not know him personally, no.
`
`16 Q. In conducting your -- well, withdrawn.
`
`17 So were you provided any materials that
`
`18 related to Dr. Sasián's analysis other than the
`
`19 completed declaration?
`
`07:57 20 MS. SHI: Objection; form, ambiguous.
`
`21 THE WITNESS: So in my analysis, I rely on
`
`22 the declaration and, of course, on the patents that
`
`23 declaration cites.
`
`24 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: And aside from the patents
`
`07:58 25 that the declaration cites and the completed Sasián
`
`14
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 14
`
`
`
` 1 declaration, were there any other materials that
`
` 2 you -- that related to Dr. Sasián's analysis that
`
` 3 you relied on in preparing your declarations?
`
` 4 MS. SHI: Objection; form.
`
`07:58 5 THE WITNESS: That is a vague question. I
`
` 6 am not sure -- I am not sure how to answer it.
`
` 7 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: Did you -- well, I'm sorry.
`
` 8 Were you finished with your answer?
`
` 9 A. Yeah, I'm finished.
`
`07:58 10 Q. Okay. Were there any drafts of
`
`11 Dr. Sasián's declaration that you considered in
`
`12 conducting your analysis of -- for these IPRs?
`
`13 A. I don't recall.
`
`14 Q. Was there any informal work product from
`
`07:59 15 Dr. Sasián's work that you considered in conducting
`
`16 your analysis for these IPRs?
`
`17 MS. SHI: Objection; privilege.
`
`18 I am going to caution the witness not to
`
`19 reveal any work product privileged information.
`
`07:59 20 THE WITNESS: I will follow my counsel's
`
`21 advice.
`
`22 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: So without, for the
`
`23 purposes of this question, wanting to know any of
`
`24 the substance of anything that you considered, was
`
`08:00 25 there any informal analysis from Dr. Sasián that
`
`15
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 15
`
`
`
` 1 you considered in performing your analysis for
`
` 2 these IPRs?
`
` 3 MS. SHI: Objection; attorney-client
`
` 4 privilege.
`
`08:00 5 THE WITNESS: I will follow my counsel's
`
` 6 advice and have nothing to discuss.
`
` 7 MR. RUBIN: So, Counsel, materials that
`
` 8 the witness considered in reaching his opinions are
`
` 9 not work product under Federal Rule of Civil
`
`08:01 10 Procedure 26. So if you --
`
`11 MS. SHI: So your -- your question was any
`
`12 informal analysis of Dr. Sasián's that you
`
`13 considered. What is "informal"? That -- you need
`
`14 to rephrase your question.
`
`08:01 15 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: So turning to Page 26 of
`
`16 Exhibit 27, you see that it is dated May 5th?
`
`17 A. You mean Page 27?
`
`18 Q. Page 27, yeah.
`
`19 A. Sure, yes.
`
`08:02 20 Q. And your declarations in these IPRs were
`
`21 signed on May 6, and I can show you. So this would
`
`22 be -- on the screen you can see the declaration
`
`23 from the 905 IPR showing. It is dated May 6th.
`
`24 And then on your -- you see the final page of
`
`08:02 25 the -- of your declaration in the 906 IPR, also
`
`16
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 16
`
`
`
` 1 showing that it was signed on May 6.
`
` 2 Do you see that?
`
` 3 A. Yes.
`
` 4 Q. Was May 5th the first time that you
`
`08:03 5 received -- well, withdrawn.
`
` 6 Do you recall when you first received a
`
` 7 copy of Dr. Sasián's declaration, Exhibit 1021?
`
` 8 A. I do not remember.
`
` 9 MS. SHI: Objection; form.
`
`08:03 10 THE WITNESS: Oops.
`
`11 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: I'm sorry, what was your
`
`12 answer, sir?
`
`13 A. My answer was I do not remember.
`
`14 Q. Did you receive a copy of Dr. Sasián's
`
`08:03 15 declaration before you signed your declarations on
`
`16 May 6th?
`
`17 MS. SHI: Objection; form, asked and
`
`18 answered.
`
`19 THE WITNESS: Well, my declaration builds
`
`08:03 20 on Dr. Sasián's declaration. So yes, I had read
`
`21 Dr. Sasián's declaration when I signed my
`
`22 declaration.
`
`23 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: And did you receive any --
`
`24 withdrawn.
`
`08:04 25 Did you receive any analysis from
`
`17
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 17
`
`
`
` 1 Dr. Sasián prior to May 5th that you considered in
`
` 2 forming your opinions in these two declarations?
`
` 3 MS. SHI: Objection; form, asked and
`
` 4 answered.
`
`08:04 5 THE WITNESS: I do not recall.
`
` 6 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: Well, earlier in answering
`
` 7 the question you used the term "compound lens."
`
` 8 Do you recall?
`
` 9 A. Yes.
`
`08:05 10 Q. And what is a compound lens, as you used
`
`11 the term in your testimony?
`
`12 A. By this I mean a lens made -- made of
`
`13 multiple lens elements, multiple pieces of glass.
`
`14 Q. So you have never designed a lens that had
`
`08:05 15 multiple lens elements; is that right?
`
`16 MS. SHI: Objection; form, asked and
`
`17 answered.
`
`18 THE WITNESS: I have -- I have been
`
`19 involved in projects that require the design of
`
`08:06 20 optics and of complex optical systems involving
`
`21 multiple elements, but usually the design itself
`
`22 was performed by my grad students or postdocs.
`
`23 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: Do you know if any of those
`
`24 projects that you supervised involved lens systems
`
`08:06 25 with five or more lens elements?
`
`18
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 18
`
`
`
` 1 A. Some of the projects we worked on built on
`
` 2 existing lenses that did have more than five
`
` 3 elements.
`
` 4 Q. When you say that they built on existing
`
`08:07 5 systems, did they -- did those projects involve
`
` 6 modifying the -- those existing lens designs or
`
` 7 simply using those existing lens systems without
`
` 8 modification?
`
` 9 A. Oh, so we usually added more optical
`
`08:07 10 elements to existing lens designs, sometimes inside
`
`11 the design, sometimes in front of the -- of
`
`12 existing lenses or the back of existing lenses.
`
`13 (Discussion off the record.)
`
`14 (Previously marked Exhibit No. 1001
`
`08:09 15 for identification.)
`
`16 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: So, Professor Durand, you
`
`17 should see in the chat function and also on the
`
`18 screen Exhibit 1001, which is that exhibit number
`
`19 in both of the IPRs, U.S. Patent No. 10,225,479.
`
`08:09 20 Do you recognize this exhibit, sir?
`
`21 A. Yes, I do.
`
`22 Q. And this -- if I refer to this as the '479
`
`23 patent, you'll understand what I'm talking about?
`
`24 A. Yes.
`
`08:10 25 Q. I'd like to turn to Page 19 of your
`
`19
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 19
`
`
`
` 1 declaration in the 905 IPR. Well, we can start on
`
` 2 Page 18. And this is the section of your
`
` 3 declaration where you discuss claim construction
`
` 4 for this IPR.
`
`08:10 5 Do you see that?
`
` 6 A. Yes.
`
` 7 Q. And you offer opinions on the construction
`
` 8 of the term, quote, "fused image with a point of
`
` 9 view (POV) of the wide camera."
`
`08:11 10 Do you see that?
`
`11 A. Yes.
`
`12 Q. And I think at the end of the section,
`
`13 Page 33, you offer an opinion that the construction
`
`14 of this term should be, quote, "a fused image that
`
`08:11 15 maintains the wide camera's field of view or both
`
`16 the wide camera's field of view and position."
`
`17 Do you see that?
`
`18 A. Yes.
`
`19 Q. So as you're interpreting this claim
`
`08:12 20 limitation, the fused image has to maintain the
`
`21 wide camera's field of view, but whether it
`
`22 maintains the wide camera's position is optional;
`
`23 is that right?
`
`24 A. Yes. I think that the claim should be
`
`08:12 25 interpreted as maintaining either the wide camera's
`
`20
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 20
`
`
`
` 1 field of view or both the wide camera's field of
`
` 2 view and position.
`
` 3 Q. So when you refer to the wide camera's
`
` 4 position -- well, what do you mean by "the wide
`
`08:12 5 camera's position"?
`
` 6 A. The -- by "position," I mean the 3D XYZ
`
` 7 location of the camera.
`
` 8 Q. So it is the position of the camera, not
`
` 9 the position of objects within the image; is that
`
`08:14 10 it?
`
`11 MS. SHI: Objection; form.
`
`12 THE WITNESS: So the '479 patent discusses
`
`13 the concept of point of view in multiple ways,
`
`14 which is why I have to give multiple options. And
`
`08:15 15 so one interpretation of point of view is -- is due
`
`16 to the location of the camera and the resulting
`
`17 perspective or shape.
`
`18 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: Um -- withdrawn.
`
`19 In the construction that you provide in
`
`08:16 20 Paragraph 33 of the 905 declaration, the one
`
`21 feature that has to be maintained is the wide
`
`22 camera's field of view. That has to be maintained
`
`23 under either alternative you provide in the
`
`24 declaration. I am -- rather, in the construction.
`
`08:17 25 Is the field of view that you're referring
`
`21
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 21
`
`
`
` 1 to measured as an angle?
`
` 2 A. There are different ways to measure the
`
` 3 field of view. An angle is one option.
`
` 4 Q. So when you're using the term "field of
`
`08:17 5 view" in this construction, you're reviewing --
`
` 6 you're referring to how much of the scene is
`
` 7 captured by the camera; is that right?
`
` 8 A. This is a vague version of the definition,
`
` 9 I would say one definition of the field of view.
`
`08:18 10 For example, the horizontal field of view is to
`
`11 look at the angle between the two edges of the --
`
`12 of the image.
`
`13 Q. So would you agree that two images could
`
`14 not -- well, withdrawn.
`
`08:18 15 Would you agree that a fused image could
`
`16 have the field of view of a particular camera even
`
`17 if none of the objects that are visible to that
`
`18 camera are visible in the fused image?
`
`19 MS. SHI: Objection; vague.
`
`08:19 20 THE WITNESS: This is a vague
`
`21 hypothetical. I am not sure I understand the
`
`22 scenario and how it relates to my declaration.
`
`23 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: So would you agree that
`
`24 the -- that if a -- withdrawn.
`
`08:19 25 Would you agree that a camera's field of
`
`22
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 22
`
`
`
` 1 view is a property of the camera that's independent
`
` 2 of what direction the camera is pointing?
`
` 3 A. So one definition or understanding of
`
` 4 field of view would be -- would indeed be just an
`
`08:20 5 angle that's a property of the combination of a
`
` 6 camera and the lens.
`
` 7 I believe that the -- in the cases we are
`
` 8 discussing, a POSITA would understand that the goal
`
` 9 is to fuse images of overlapping parts of the
`
`08:20 10 scene.
`
`11 THE REPORTER: Overlapping parts of the
`
`12 what?
`
`13 THE WITNESS: Parts of the scene.
`
`14 THE REPORTER: I apologize.
`
`15 THE WITNESS: Of the scene, s-c-e-n-e.
`
`16 (Discussion off the record.)
`
`17 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: So looking at Column 5 of
`
`18 the '479 patent, you see there's discussion of
`
`19 varying a zoom factor of an output image?
`
`08:22 20 MS. SHI: Mr. Rubin, can you identify the
`
`21 line?
`
`22 THE WITNESS: Where are -- where are we in
`
`23 Column 5, sorry?
`
`24 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: Sorry. So Line 3, Line 4,
`
`08:22 25 Line 6, Line 51, Line 52, Line 53.
`
`23
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 23
`
`
`
` 1 A. Yes.
`
` 2 Q. Okay. And you'd agree that in the --
`
` 3 withdrawn.
`
` 4 So if we could look at Column 10 of the
`
`08:23 5 '479 patent, you see that the heading at the
`
` 6 beginning of the column reads: "Zoom-In and
`
` 7 Zoom-Out in Still Camera Mode"?
`
` 8 A. Yes.
`
` 9 Q. And would you agree that the specification
`
`08:23 10 of the '49 -- the '479 patent discusses a digital
`
`11 zoom where the zoom factor of the outputted image
`
`12 can be varied?
`
`13 MS. SHI: Objection; vague.
`
`14 THE WITNESS: I have verified the
`
`08:25 15 specifications of '479. I agree that Patent '479
`
`16 does allow the user to choose a zoom factor and --
`
`17 and uses a digital zoom.
`
`18 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: And you see that in Column
`
`19 10, at Lines 23 to 24, the specification refers to
`
`08:26 20 the case where zoom factor equals one and, quote,
`
`21 "the output is the unchanged wide camera output"?
`
`22 A. Yes, I see it.
`
`23 Q. So would you agree that if the zoom factor
`
`24 is greater than one, that the output is digitally
`
`08:26 25 zoomed such that the field of view of the output is
`
`24
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 24
`
`
`
` 1 less than the field of view of the wide camera?
`
` 2 A. I agree that if the zoom factor is greater
`
` 3 than one, the field of view is -- will narrow the
`
` 4 entirety of the wide camera output.
`
`08:28 5 MR. RUBIN: I am going to introduce a
`
` 6 couple of additional exhibits in the chat function.
`
` 7 MS. SHI: So, Mr. Rubin, we didn't discuss
`
` 8 breaks. Do you think a break of maybe five minutes
`
` 9 every hour would work?
`
`08:28 10 MR. RUBIN: You know, we can take a break
`
`11 right now. Can we do ten minutes for this break?
`
`12 MS. SHI: Sure.
`
`13 MR. RUBIN: All right. Let's go off the
`
`14 record.
`
`08:28 15 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now going off
`
`16 the record at approximately 8:28 a.m. Pacific
`
`17 Standard Time.
`
`18 (Whereupon a recess was taken.)
`
`19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now going back
`
`08:56 20 on the record, and the time is approximately 8:56
`
`21 a.m. Pacific Standard Time.
`
`22 (Previously marked Exhibit No. 1005
`
`23 for identification.)
`
`24 (Previously marked Exhibit No. 1015
`
`08:57 25 for identification.)
`
`25
`
`FREDO DURAND, PH.D. - CONFIDENTIAL-AEO
`
`APPLE V COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00906
`Exhibit 2036
`Page 25
`
`
`
` 1 Q. BY MR. RUBIN: Okay. I have -- Professor
`
` 2 Durand, you should have available to you in the
`
` 3 Zoom chat function Exhibit 1005 and Exhibit 1015.
`
` 4 Have you been able to download those?
`
`08:57 5 A. Yes. I believe I have them.
`
` 6 Q. And on the screen you should see Exhibit
`
` 7 1005, which is the Parulski paten
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