UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` ----------
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
` ----------
`
` APPLE INC,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` vs.
`
` COREPHOTONICS, LTD.,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` ----------
`
` Case No. IPR2020-00877
`
` U.S. Patent No. 10,288,840
`
` Case No. IPR2020-00878
`
` U.S. Patent No. 10,330,897
`
` Case No. IPR2020-00906
`
` U.S. Patent No. 10,225,479
`
` REMOTE VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
`
` JOSÉ M. SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` FRIDAY, JULY 16, 2021
`
`Reported by:
`
`Pat English-Arredondo, CSR, RMR, CRR, CCR
`
`Job No.: 2778
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 1
`
`
`
` ----------
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
` ----------
`
` APPLE INC,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` vs.
`
` COREPHOTONICS, LTD.,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` ----------
`
` Case No. IPR2020-00877
`
` U.S. Patent No. 10,288,840
`
` Case No. IPR2020-00878
`
` U.S. Patent No. 10,330,897
`
` Case No. IPR2020-00906
`
` U.S. Patent No. 10,225,479
`
` REMOTE VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
`
` JOSÉ M. SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` FRIDAY, JULY 16, 2021
`
`Reported by:
`
`Pat English-Arredondo, CSR, RMR, CRR, CCR
`
`Job No.: 2778
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 1
`
`
`
`Page 2
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` REMOTE VIDEO-RECORDED ZOOM DEPOSITION
`
`OF JOSÉ M. SASIÁN, Ph.D., located in Tucson,
`
`Arizona, taken on behalf of Patent Owner,
`
`Corephotonics, Ltd., on Friday, the 16th day
`
`of July, 2021, before Pat English Arredondo,
`
`CSR (TX), RMR, CRR, CCR (LA) in remote
`
`realtime translation and according to rules
`
`of United States Patent and Trademark Office
`
`and any said agreements by Counsel.
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`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 2
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
` (All via Zoom Video Communications)
`
`FOR THE PETITIONER:
`
` Ms. Stephanie Sivinski, Esq.
`
` Mr. Michael S. Parsons, Esq.
`
` Mr. Jordan Maucotel, Esq.
`
` HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
`
` 2323 Victory Avenue, Suite 700
`
` Dallas, TX 75219
`
` 214.651.5078
`
` stephanie.sivinski@haynesboone.com
`
` michael.parsons@haynesboone.com
`
` jordan.maucotel@haynesboone.com
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`
` Mr. Jonathan Link, Esq.
`
` RUSS AUGUST & KABAT
`
` 12424 Wilshire Blvd., 12th Floor
`
` Los Angeles, CA 90025
`
` 310.826.7474
`
` jlink@raklaw.com
`
`VIDEOGRAPHER:
`
` Mr. Chris Bueno
`
`
`
`
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 3
`
`
`
`Page 4
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` I N D E X
`
` PAGE
`
` APPEARANCES.......................... 3
`
`WITNESS: JOSÉ M. SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` EXAMINATION BY MR. LINK..............7
`
`CHANGES AND SIGNATURE....................99
`
`REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE...................101
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`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 4
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`
`
`Page 5
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` E X H I B I T S I N D E X
` (FOR REFERENCE PURPOSES ONLY)
`
` REMOTE VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
` JOSÉ M. SASIÁN, Ph.D.
` JULY 16, 2021
`
` NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`
`EXHIBIT 1003 Sasián Expert 10
` Declaration, 130 pages
`
`EXHIBIT 1005 U.S. Patent No. 23
` 9,128,267 to Ogino, 28
` pages
`
`EXHIBIT 1012 Bareau - The Optics of 46
` Miniature Digital
` Camera Modules,
` 11 pages
`
`EXHIBIT 1017 Fischer, Optical 16
` System Design by
` Fischer, Galeb and
` Yoder, 15 pages
`
`EXHIBIT 1028 Deposition of Tom 82
` Milster dated 4-15-21,
` 222 pages
`
`EXHIBIT 1037 Declaration of José M. 10
` Sasián, Ph.D., dated,
` 62 pages
`
` * * *
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`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 5
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Hello. Good
`
` morning. We are on the record and
`
` today's date is July 16th, 2021, and
`
` the time is 9:00 a.m. Pacific standard
`
` time.
`
` This is the video deposition of
`
` Professor José Sasián in the matter of
`
` Apple, Inc., versus Corephotonics
`
` filed in the United States Patent &
`
` Trademark Office before the Patent
`
` Trial and Appeal Court, Case No.
`
` IPR 2020-00896 and another
`
` IPR 2020-00897.
`
` This deposition is taking place
`
` via web video conference with all
`
` participants attending remotely.
`
` My name is Chris Bueno. I'm
`
` the videographer representing
`
` TransPerfect.
`
` Would counsel on the conference
`
` please identify yourselves and state
`
` whom you represent, beginning with the
`
` questioning attorney, please.
`
` MR. LINK: Good morning. My
`
` name is Jonathan Link with the law
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 6
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`Page 7
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` firm of Russ August & Kabat
`
` representing the patent owner,
`
` Corephotonics.
`
` MS. SIVINSKI: Good morning.
`
` Stephanie Sivinski with Haynes and
`
` Boone. (Audio drop) [Jordan Maucotel
`
` and Mike Parsons] are also with Haynes
`
` & Boone and also representing Apple,
`
` Inc.
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Our court
`
` reporter today is Pat Arredondo
`
` representing TransPerfect.
`
` The court reporter will now
`
` swear in the witness. Thank you.
`
` THE REPORTER: Sir, will you go
`
` ahead and raise your right hand to be
`
` administered the oath?
`
` JOSÉ M. SASIÁN, Ph.D.,
`
` being called as a witness, and having been
`
` duly sworn, testified as follows:
`
` THE WITNESS: Yes.
`
` THE REPORTER: Thank you.
`
` EXAMINATION
`
` BY MR. LINK:
`
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Sasián. How
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 7
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`Page 8
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` are you today?
`
` A. Very well. Thank you,
`
` Mr. Link.
`
` How are you.
`
` Q. Doing well. Thanks.
`
` We've met before previously, so
`
` I don't think we need to go over much of the
`
` rules for a video deposition; but just to be
`
` mindful that we allow each other to complete
`
` their question or answer before talking,
`
` particularly with this being done online.
`
` And I just ask you, if a
`
` question is unclear, let me know and we can
`
` figure out why it's unclear or I can reask to
`
` clarify. Okay?
`
` A. Thank you.
`
` Q. Okay. And if you need a break,
`
` just ask. I will try to do them every hour
`
` or so; but if you need one, just let me know.
`
` But I do want to make sure that you answer
`
` any pending question before we go to break.
`
` Okay?
`
` A. Yes. Thank you.
`
` Q. Is there any reason you can't
`
` give truthful testimony today? You're on
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 8
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` medication or anything like that?
`
` A. There are two questions here.
`
` Which one shall I answer?
`
` Q. Well, let's start off: Is
`
` there any reason you can't give truthful
`
` testimony today?
`
` A. Not that I can think of right
`
` now.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you have any written
`
` or printed notes with you?
`
` A. Around me there are no notes or
`
` printed notes regarding the case.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you have any of those
`
` notes on your computer?
`
` A. I believe on my download
`
` folders I have a copy of my declarations and
`
` maybe other document, exhibit, in the case.
`
` Q. Okay. Can you agree that,
`
` other than the documents that I provide to
`
` you via the chat in the Zoom, that you won't
`
` access any of those other notes or documents
`
` during this deposition?
`
` A. Yes. Regarding the case,
`
` right?
`
` Q. Yes.
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 9
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` Okay. And is there anyone with
`
` you in the room where you're having
`
` your depo -- where you are right now?
`
` A. No. No one is with me in the
`
` room or in the house, except for my dogs. I
`
` should say that occasionally the Internet may
`
` stop for a few seconds, so please bear with
`
` me and I should be back.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. But it should be -- it has been
`
` working fine for the last day. So no
`
` problem.
`
` Q. Okay. Well, we will certainly
`
` keep that in mind; and if something pops up,
`
` we will pause and wait for you to get it
`
` worked out.
`
` I have put two documents into
`
` the chat here. If you could download those
`
` and let me know when you have them.
`
` (Referenced only were Exhibit
`
` Nos. 1037 and 1003.)
`
` A. Thank you. I'm doing that.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. I have them.
`
` Q. Great.
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 10
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` So one of them is a declaration
`
` that you have submitted for IPR 2020-00896.
`
` Correct?
`
` A. Could you please tell me which
`
` is the patent this refers to?
`
` Q. Sure. That declaration is
`
` regarding U.S. Patent No. 10,317,647.
`
` A. Yes, I have it here as '647.
`
` Q. Okay. And if we refer to that
`
` as the "'647 patent," we will understand one
`
` another?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And then the second
`
` declaration is for the '277 patent. That is
`
` U.S. Patent No. 10,324,277. Correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And that's for IPR
`
` 2020-0897. Correct?
`
` A. I believe so.
`
` Q. And in both of these you
`
` submitted this in support of the petitioner's
`
` reply that was filed in each of these two
`
` IPRs. Correct?
`
` A. I believe so.
`
` Q. Okay. I would like you to turn
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 11
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`Page 12
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` to the -- or let's start with the declaration
`
` for the '277 patent. And, in particular, if
`
` I could have you turn to Paragraph 3.
`
` A. Yes, I have Paragraph 3.
`
` Q. Great. In the first
`
` full -- Paragraph 3 is across both Page 5 and
`
` Page 6. So if you look at the first full
`
` sentence on Page 6, you wrote that (as read):
`
` "None of these manufacturing requirements are
`
` described in any of the claims or the
`
` specification of the '277 patent."
`
` Do you see that sentence?
`
` A. I see the sentence that reads,
`
` "None of these manufacturing requirements are
`
` described in any of the claims or the
`
` specification of the '277 patent."
`
` Q. Okay. Is this a requirement
`
` for a person of ordinary skill in the art to
`
` consider when combining two references?
`
` MS. SIVINSKI: Objection, calls
`
` for a legal conclusion.
`
` A. Could you please repeat the
`
` question?
`
` Q. (By Mr. Link) Sure.
`
` Is this sentence that you write
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 12
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`Page 13
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` there in Paragraph 3 a requirement for a
`
` POSITA to consider when combining two
`
` references?
`
` MS. SIVINSKI: Same objection.
`
` A. (Reviewing.)
`
` So you are asking me whether
`
` considering manufacturing requirements is
`
` required for a POSITA when he or she is
`
` combining two references?
`
` Q. (By Mr. Link) Let me ask it in
`
` a different way then.
`
` Is it your position that if the
`
` prior art refers to something that is not
`
` explicitly mentioned in the claims, a POSITA
`
` does not need to consider it?
`
` MS. SIVINSKI: Objection, calls
`
` for a legal conclusion.
`
` A. I think not necessarily.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Link) What do you mean
`
` by "not necessarily"?
`
` A. Well, there may be items on the
`
` specification that might be irrelevant to a
`
` claim and items that could be relevant to a
`
` claim, such as a claim construction, for
`
` example.
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 13
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` Q. If the prior art refers to
`
` something that is not specifically mentioned
`
` in the claims, does a POSITA need to consider
`
` that in determining whether to combine that
`
` piece of prior art with another piece of
`
` prior art?
`
` MS. SIVINSKI: Objection, calls
`
` for a legal conclusion, vague.
`
` A. I think you're suggesting a
`
` hyper technical situation. And without
`
` knowing details, I'm not sure I can answer
`
` that question.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Link) When evaluating
`
` whether to combine one piece of prior art
`
` with another piece of prior -- a second piece
`
` of prior art, does a person of ordinary skill
`
` in the art, or a POSITA, need to consider the
`
` entire teaching of each piece of prior art?
`
` MS. SIVINSKI: Objection, calls
`
` for a legal conclusion.
`
` A. Well, again, this is a hyper
`
` technical situation; and without being
`
` specific and knowing the details, I'm not
`
` sure I can give an answer.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Link) Sitting here
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 14
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` right now, you don't know if a person of
`
` ordinary skill in the art needs to consider
`
` the entire teaching of each piece of prior
`
` art that that POSITA may want to combine?
`
` MS. SIVINSKI: Objection, calls
`
` for a legal conclusion, asked and
`
` answered.
`
` A. It also depends on what you
`
` mean by "consider." As I said before, there
`
` may be items that might be irrelevant and
`
` items that could be relevant.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Link) So a POSITA just
`
` gets to pick and choose what portions of a
`
` piece of prior art he or she considers?
`
` A. Yes. A POSITA would
`
` choose -- we have an understanding of the
`
` specification of the patent, of the prior
`
` art, and would arrive to some conclusions and
`
` offer an opinion.
`
` Q. And so then a POSITA could just
`
` ignore those portions of the prior art that
`
` he or she considers inconvenient for reaching
`
` their combination. Right?
`
` MS. SIVINSKI: Objection.
`
` (Audio distortion).
`
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`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 15
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` A. I haven't said so. And,
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` again --
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` THE REPORTER: Excuse me.
`
` Excuse me. I didn't catch the
`
` objection. Sorry.
`
` MS. SIVINSKI: Misstates
`
` testimony.
`
` A. As I said before, I didn't say
`
` so. Again, depending on the specifics of a
`
` patent, a POSITA may consider some facts, may
`
` consider other facts, and give an opinion on
`
` the art.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Link) I would like you
`
` to turn to Paragraph 6 in your declaration
`
` now.
`
` A. I'm there.
`
` Q. You're there? Great.
`
` And I'm also providing you with
`
` a copy of Exhibit 117 -- 1017, that you, I
`
` believe, quote from in that Paragraph 6.
`
` (Referenced only was Exhibit No. 1017.)
`
` Q. Let me know when you have that
`
` exhibit.
`
` A. I'm downloading it now. Just a
`
` second.
`
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`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 16
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` Q. Sure.
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` THE REPORTER: Mr. Link, are we
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` going to officially mark these as
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` exhibits, or are they just for
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` reference?
`
` MR. LINK: Stephanie, we just
`
` used them for reference. Is that
`
` right? Does that still work?
`
` MS. SIVINSKI: Yes. We haven't
`
` been attaching. Yeah, that's fine.
`
` Can you hear me?
`
` MR. LINK: I can hear you, but
`
` I notice there's been a lag at times.
`
` MS. SIVINSKI: Yeah, I just got
`
` a message that said my internet is
`
` slow. Maybe when we get to a break I
`
` can restart and hopefully that will be
`
` better. Sorry, guys.
`
` MR. LINK: Funny enough, you
`
` had a bit of a lag there in the middle
`
` of that.
`
` But yes, let me finish this
`
` group of questions and then maybe we
`
` can take a break and let you try and
`
` fix that.
`
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`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 17
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` Q. (By Mr. Link) Dr. Sasián, you
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` have that Exhibit 1017?
`
` A. Yes. And it's open.
`
` Q. Wonderful. You cite to
`
` Page 168 in that exhibit, correct?
`
` A. I believe so.
`
` Q. You have -- after that citation
`
` to 168 you have, in parentheses, in
`
` Paragraph 6 of your declaration, stating that
`
` (as read): "After entering the lens design
`
` to be improved into a design computer
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` program, 'each variable is changed a small
`
` amount: increment and the effect to
`
` performance is then computed.'"
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Now, you are referring to my
`
` declaration, right?
`
` Q. Correct. So what I read there
`
` was from the parenthetical in your
`
` declaration at Paragraph 6.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. "Its variable is changed a
`
` small amount called an increment, and the
`
` effect to perform is then computed."
`
` Q. And that quotation that you
`
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`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 18
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` included in your declaration is taken from
`
` this Exhibit 1017. Correct?
`
` A. Yes, it appears so.
`
` Q. Actually, why don't we take
`
` that break.
`
` MS. SIVINSKI: Okay, sounds
`
` good. Do you want to go off the room,
`
` I'm assuming?
`
` MR. LINK: Yes, why don't we do
`
` that.
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off
`
` the record. The time is 9:20 a.m.
`
` Pacific time.
`
` (Recess taken at 9:20 AM PST,
`
` resuming at 9:29 AM PST)
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the
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` record. Time is 9:29 a.m. Pacific
`
` time.
`
` Counsel, you may proceed.
`
` Q. (By Mr. Link) Dr. Sasián, if I
`
` could have you turn to Paragraph 9 of your
`
` reports, at Page 9.
`
` A. Page 9? Yes, I am now.
`
` Q. And you say that your analysis
`
` is showing -- "shows good optical performance
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`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 19
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` of the modified Example 4 lens." Right?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Was this an optimized
`
` performance -- optical performance?
`
` A. Could you please tell me what
`
` you mean by an "optimized optical
`
` performance"?
`
` Q. Did you continue the process of
`
` modifying Example 4 until you were able to
`
` optimize the optical performance of the lens
`
` assembly?
`
` MS. SIVINSKI: Objection,
`
` vague.
`
` A. Could you please repeat the
`
` question?
`
` Q. (By Mr. Link) Did you continue
`
` the process of modifying Example 4 of Ogino
`
` until you were able to optimize the optical
`
` performance of the lens assembly?
`
` A. By "continue," what do you
`
` mean? Continue from where?
`
` Q. Well, let me ask it this way:
`
` Why did you stop your process of modifying
`
` Example 4 of Ogino at the point that you did?
`
` A. As I recall, because in
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`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 20
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` modifying Ogino, I reached similar
`
` performance to the original Ogino lens.
`
` Q. If you were -- your goal was to
`
` obtain similar performance to the original
`
` example for Ogino lens, why would you do any
`
` modification to it?
`
` A. In this case it was to show
`
` that one could modify the Ogino example to
`
` decrease the f-number to -- according to the
`
` teachings of, I believe, Bareau to obtain a
`
` lower f-number of 2.8.
`
` Q. So once you reached the same or
`
` similar performance as what was in the
`
` original Example 4 lens, you stopped? Is
`
` that what happened?
`
` A. Well, I don't recall the
`
` specifics; but it must be along those lines.
`
` Q. The original Example 4 of Ogino
`
` didn't have the performance that a POSITA
`
` would have wanted and that's why you made the
`
` modification. Correct?
`
` MS. SIVINSKI: Objection,
`
` vague.
`
` A. I'm not sure if I would phrase
`
` it like that, though the modification shows
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`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 21
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` that in -- starting or in modifying Ogino a
`
` POSITA could have reduced the f-number of the
`
` example.
`
` Q. But if a POSITA wanted to have
`
` a reduced f-number, that is like an f-number
`
` of 2.8, there were other examples in Ogino
`
` that a POSITA could have used, right?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. So if reducing the f-number was
`
` important to a POSITA, there is no reason it
`
` would have started with an example that had
`
` an f-number that was 3.04. Correct?
`
` A. No, I disagree. A POSITA who
`
` was interested in Ogino, understanding and
`
` following the teachings of Ogino, would have
`
` explored Ogino examples, modify at least one
`
` example.
`
` And especially, as I recall, I
`
` think -- if you allow me to review the Ogino
`
` reference, it may be that the total track of
`
` Ogino of this particular example is the
`
` smallest -- well, not the total track.
`
` The telephoto ratio might be
`
` the smallest of all the examples; and because
`
` of this important feature, a POSITA would be
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`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 22
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` interested on such a lens. I don't recall
`
` exactly if it's this example; but again, if
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` you let me review Ogino's patent, I will be
`
` happy to be more precise in my answer.
`
` Q. Certainly. I dropped the Ogino
`
` reference into the chat, so if you can
`
` download that, take a look.
`
` (Referenced only was Exhibit No. 1005.)
`
` A. We are talking about Example 4.
`
` Correct.
`
` Q. Example 4 is what you modified
`
` to -- and provided the opinions on, so that's
`
` where we're starting with.
`
` A. Let me take a look at the
`
` different examples.
`
` So for Example 1, the total
`
` length is 4.137. For Example 2, it's 4.12.
`
` For Example 3, it's 4.117.
`
` For Example 4, it's 4.26. And
`
` for Example 5, it's 5.17; and for Example 6,
`
` it's 4.387.
`
` But that is the total length.
`
` Let me see if I have here the telephoto
`
` ratio. So we have -- Example 4, it has the
`
` total length of 4.26 and a focal length of
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`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 23
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`Page 24
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` 4.55.
`
` Can I use my calculator?
`
` Q. Yes.
`
` A. So we have 4.26 divided by
`
` 4.555, and that number is .93.
`
` Q. So that's for Example 4?
`
` A. Yes, that's what I get. And
`
` say that we go to Example 5 that has a lower
`
` f-number, so the total length is 5.171
`
` divided over 5.956 and the telephoto ratio
`
` would be .868. It would be lower in this
`
` case.
`
` So for Example 4 may not be the
`
` one that has the lowest telephoto ratio.
`
` Q. I would like to move then to
`
` Paragraph 14 in your declaration for the
`
` '277 patent.
`
` A. Could you please say again the
`
` paragraph?
`
` Q. Paragraph 14. 1-4.
`
` A. I have it.
`
` Q. Great. And in Paragraph 14 you
`
` state that the lenses L4 and L5 are not
`
` actually touching. And you provide a
`
` figure -- more particularly, a blowup of a
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`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 24
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` figure, Figure 3B, to show this.
`
` Is that right?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And just so that we're clear,
`
` looking at this, Figure 3A is the figure on
`
` the left which shows the ray trace and then
`
` Figure 3B is the blown-up figure or the
`
` blowup of that figure on the right. Is that
`
` correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. In looking at that blowup of
`
` the ray trace there in Figure 3B, what is the
`
` distance between lenses L4 and L5 at that
`
` closest point?
`
` A. Well, I don't have that number
`
` with me, but it's bigger than 0.
`
` Q. Okay. Is it bigger -- I mean,
`
` is it 1 millimeter?
`
` A. Okay, if -- so the total axial
`
` length of this example is like 4.362
`
` millimeters. So we can say that the
`
` thickness, the edge thickness -- I am just
`
` estimating, okay? I am not doing any
`
` calculation. But the edge thickness may be
`
` in the -- of Lens 4 may be in the order of
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`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 25
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` maybe 200 -- .2 millimeters. So the --
`
` THE REPORTER: Can you repeat
`
` the number, please?
`
` A. It's .2 millimeters.
`
` And so the radii where the
`
` lenses get closer may be in the order of
`
` several micrometers.
`
` Q. Sorry. You said "several
`
` micrometers"?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Is that distance of several
`
` micrometers within the manufacturing
`
` tolerances for plastic injection molded
`
` lenses at the time of the invention of the
`
` '277 patent?
`
` A. I believe so.
`
` Q. What's your basis for saying
`
` that?
`
` A. Well, the -- if you do a
`
` tolerance and analysis of how the lens
`
` behaves if you change the thickness, the same
`
` type thickness of Element 4 and 5, you will
`
` find out that most likely, if it's changed,
`
` say, 10 or 20 micrometers, the performance of
`
` the lens would be affected to the point that
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`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 26
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` the lens may not be suitable.
`
` So to be able -- for the lens
`
` to be able to operate properly, the
`
` thicknesses of the lenses on these patients
`
` needs to be good within a few micrometers.
`
` And the process of making these lenses by
`
` plastic injection molding approaches high
`
` levels of tolerances.
`
` For example, the surfaces are
`
` made within a micrometer or much better of
`
` precision. So the manufacturer -- the
`
` manufacturing process is -- it's accurate,
`
` much more accurate.
`
` Q. You said that for the lenses to
`
` be able to operate properly, the thickness of
`
` the lenses need to be good within a few
`
` micrometers.
`
` But then earlier, when talking
`
` about this distance that's closest, you used
`
` "several micrometers." What's the difference
`
` between a "few" and "several"?
`
` A. Well, I'm just estimating.
`
` Without doing a detailed analysis with the
`
` lens design program, I can't give you a
`
` precise answer. I am just estimating that
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`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2012
`Page 27
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` that gap is in the order of several
`
` micrometers. It may be 5; it may be 15.
`
` And I'm also saying that the
`
` level of manufacturing of these lenses, it's
`
` probably much better than those 5, 15
`
` micrometers I said.
`
` Q. But you haven't calculated what
`
` the distance is there. You're just making an
`
` estimate as you sit here right now.
`
` A. Yes, I did a ballpark estimate.
`
` That's all.
`
` Q. If I could have you turn to
`
` Paragraph 20 of your declaration for the '277
`
` patent, please?
`
` A. I am there.
`
` Q. And you quote from another IPR
`
` regarding a different patent but one that's
`
` the parent of the '277 patent, that -- an
`
` argument by the patent owner.
`
` Do you see that quotation?
`
` A. Are you referring to the "and
`
` more fundamentally"?
`
` Q. Yes, that quotation there.
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Do you agree with this
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exh
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