UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` _______________
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEALS BOARD
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` _______________
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` APPLE INC.,
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` Petitioner,
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` v.
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` COREPHOTONICS, LTD.,
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` Patent Owner.
`
` _______________
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` Case Nos. IPR2020-00896
`
` U.S. Patent No. 10,317,647
`
` _______________
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
` February 19, 2021
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`24 Diana L. Porter, CSR No. 12729
` 470765
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`25
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`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 1
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`
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` _______________
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEALS BOARD
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` _______________
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` APPLE INC.,
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` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
` COREPHOTONICS, LTD.,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` _______________
`
` Case Nos. IPR2020-00896
`
` U.S. Patent No. 10,317,647
`
` _______________
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
` February 19, 2021
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`24 Diana L. Porter, CSR No. 12729
` 470765
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`25
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`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 1
`
`
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` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` 2 _______________
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` 3 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEALS BOARD
`
` 4 _______________
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` 5 APPLE INC.,
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` 6 Petitioner,
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` 7 v.
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` 8 COREPHOTONICS, LTD.,
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` 9 Patent Owner.
`
`10 _______________
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`11 Case Nos. IPR2020-00896
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`12 U.S. Patent No. 10,317,647
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`13 _______________
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`14
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`15
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`16 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JOSÉ SASIÁN, taken on
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`17 behalf of the patent owner, via Zoom videoconference,
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`18 commencing at 8:00 a.m., Friday, February 19, 2021,
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`19 before Diana L. Porter, Certified Shorthand Reporter
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`20 No. 12729.
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
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`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 2
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`
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` 1 APPEARANCES:
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` 2 FOR PATENT OWNER:
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` 3 RUSS, AUGUST & KABAT
` BY: JONATHAN LINK, ESQ.
` 4 12424 Wilshire Boulevard
` Suite 1200
` 5 Los Angeles, California 90025
` (310)826-7474
` 6 jlink@raklaw.com
`
` 7 FOR PETITIONER:
`
` 8 HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
` BY: STEPHANIE SIVINSKI, ESQ.
` 9 JORDAN M. MAUCOTEL, ESQ.
` MICHAEL S. PARSONS, ESQ.
`10 2323 Victory Avenue
` Suite 700
`11 Dallas, Texas 75219
` (214)651-5000
`12 stephanie.sivinski@haynesboone.com
` jordan.maucotel@haynesboone.com
`13 michael.parsons@haynesboone.com
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`14 ALSO PRESENT:
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`15 CYRIL SUSZCKIEWICZ, VIDEOGRAPHER
` PRIYA B. VISWANATH, ESQ.
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 3
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` 1 INDEX TO EXAMINATION
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` 2
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` 3 EXAMINATION PAGE
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` 4 By Mr. Link . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .7
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
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`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 4
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`
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` 1 INDEX TO EXHIBITS
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` 2
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` 3 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
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` 4 APPL-1001-897 '277 Patent 129
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` 5 APPL-1001-896 '647 Patent 129
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` 6 APPL-1003-896 Sasián expert declaration, '647 13
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` 7 APPL-1003-897 Sasián expert declaration, '277 13
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` 8 APPL-1005 Ogino reference 31
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` 9 APPL-1008 Chen II reference 70
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`10 APPL-1012 Bareau reference 80
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
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`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 5
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`
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` 1 ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE; FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 19, 2021
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` 2 8:00 A.M.
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` 3
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`08:00 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are on
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`08:00 5 video record on February 19th, 2021, and the time is
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`08:00 6 8:00 o'clock a.m.
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`08:00 7 This is the beginning of the video
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`08:00 8 deposition of Dr. José Sasián in the matter of
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`08:00 9 Apple, Inc., versus Corephotonics, LTD. This is
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`08:00 10 being heard before the United States Patent and
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`08:00 11 Trademark Office before the Patent Trial and Appeal
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`08:00 12 Board.
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`08:00 13 This is a virtual Zoom deposition. My name
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`08:00 14 is Cyril Suszckiewicz. I'm the videographer. And
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`08:00 15 the court reporter is Diana Porter. We're both here
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`08:00 16 representing Barkley Court Reporters.
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`08:00 17 Counsel, would you please identify yourself
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`08:00 18 for the record.
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`08:00 19 MR. LINK: Yes. Jonathan Link of the law
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`08:01 20 firm of Russ, August & Kabat, on behalf of patent
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`08:01 21 owner, Corephotonics.
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`08:01 22 MS. SIVINSKI: Good morning. Stephanie
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`08:01 23 Sivinski with Haynes and Boone. I'm here with my
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`08:01 24 colleagues Jordan Maucotel and Mike Parsons, and we
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`08:01 25 are representing (inaudible).
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`6
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 6
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`
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`08:01 1 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. The court
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`08:01 2 reporter may swear in the witness.
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`08:01 3 (JOSÉ SASIÁN, deponent, was sworn
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`08:01 4 and examined and testified as
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`08:01 5 follows:)
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`08:01 6 THE DEPOSITION OFFICER: Please raise your
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`08:01 7 right hand. You do solemnly state, under penalty of
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`08:01 8 perjury, that the testimony that you shall give in
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`08:01 9 this matter shall be the truth, the whole truth, and
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`08:01 10 nothing but the truth?
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`08:01 11 THE DEPONENT: Yes.
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`08:01 12 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER: Thank you.
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`08:01 13 You can put your hand down.
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`08:01 14 EXAMINATION
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`08:01 15 BY MR. LINK:
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`08:01 16 Q Great. Good morning, Dr. Sasián. How are
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`08:01 17 you today?
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`08:01 18 A Good morning. How are you?
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`08:01 19 Q Good. Thank you.
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`08:01 20 Dr. Sasián, how many times have you been
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`08:01 21 deposed before?
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`08:01 22 A Something around 14, 15 times. I don't
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`08:01 23 recall the exact number.
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`08:02 24 Q Okay. Well, it sounds like you're pretty
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`08:02 25 experienced, so I don't think we need to go over the
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`7
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 7
`
`
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`08:02 1 basic rules, but I think it's good to remember a
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`08:02 2 couple of things.
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`08:02 3 Since we are making a written record, we
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`08:02 4 should be mindful and allow each other to complete
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`08:02 5 either their question or their answer before
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`08:02 6 talking, particularly since we're doing this online.
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`08:02 7 If I have a question that's unclear, please
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`08:02 8 let me know and we can figure out why it's unclear
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`08:02 9 and or I can reask it to clarify.
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`08:02 10 Does that sound good?
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`08:02 11 A Yes. Thank you.
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`08:02 12 Q Okay. And if you need a break, just ask.
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`08:02 13 I'll try and do breaks about every hour. But,
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`08:02 14 certainly, if -- if you do need a break, let me
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`08:02 15 know. The only thing I'll ask is just to make sure
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`08:02 16 that you answer any pending questions before we go
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`08:02 17 to the break. Okay?
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`08:02 18 A Yes. Thank you.
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`08:02 19 Q Okay. All right. Is there any reason that
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`08:02 20 you can't give truthful testimony today? Any
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`08:02 21 medication you're taking that would prevent that?
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`08:02 22 Anything like that?
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`08:02 23 A Not that I can think.
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`08:02 24 Q Okay. Sounds good. All right.
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`08:03 25 So you understand that you're being deposed
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`8
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 8
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`
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`08:03 1 today regarding two declarations that you submitted
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`08:03 2 in support of two petitions for inter partes review
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`08:03 3 at the Patent Trial and Appeals Board at the U.S.
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`08:03 4 PTO; right?
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`08:03 5 A Yes.
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`08:03 6 And let me tell you that the internet here
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`08:03 7 occasionally stops working.
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`08:03 8 Q Okay.
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`08:03 9 A And usually it stops working for 40
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`08:03 10 seconds, 60 seconds. So if you lose me, please
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`08:03 11 wait. I should reconnect fairly soon.
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`08:03 12 Q Okay. We'll take that into consideration,
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`08:03 13 and certainly, if there's a lag in the internet that
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`08:03 14 causes a breakup of my question, let me know. We'll
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`08:03 15 repeat it. We're all kind of trying to figure out
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`08:03 16 this new world with Zoom and all that, so we'll try
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`08:03 17 and work with you.
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`08:03 18 One of those declarations is regarding U.S.
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`08:04 19 Patent Number 10,317,647; right?
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`08:04 20 A Yes.
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`08:04 21 Q Okay. And we -- if I call that the
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`08:04 22 '647 Patent or the '647 declaration, you'll know
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`08:04 23 what I'm talking about?
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`08:04 24 A Yes.
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`08:04 25 Q Okay. And the other declaration that
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`9
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 9
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`08:04 1 you've submitted is regarding U.S. Patent
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`08:04 2 Number 10,324,277; correct?
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`08:04 3 A I believe so.
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`08:04 4 Q Okay. And if I refer to that as the
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`08:04 5 '277 Patent or your declaration as the '277
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`08:04 6 declaration, you'll understand what I'm talking
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`08:04 7 about there?
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`08:04 8 A Yes.
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`08:04 9 Q Okay. Prior to these two declarations,
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`08:04 10 have you ever worked with Apple before?
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`08:04 11 A Could you clarify what you mean by working
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`08:05 12 to -- for Apple?
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`08:05 13 Q Have you ever been an expert witness on
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`08:05 14 behalf of Apple in an IPR other than the two IPRs
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`08:05 15 that we're going to discuss today?
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`08:05 16 A I believe so.
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`08:05 17 Q Okay. Do you know how many times?
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`08:05 18 A Well, there have been other IPRs that I
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`08:05 19 have participated, and they are in the order of, if
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`08:05 20 I remember well, around four, six. I don't remember
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`08:05 21 exact, the exact number.
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`08:05 22 Q Have you ever been an expert on behalf of
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`08:05 23 Apple in any district court patent litigation?
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`08:06 24 A Well, does that mean that I've been in
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`08:06 25 court on behalf of Apple?
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`10
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
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`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 10
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`
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`08:06 1 Q Well, let's start there. Have you ever
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`08:06 2 been in court and testified as a witness on behalf
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`08:06 3 of Apple?
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`08:06 4 A Other than the -- the IPRs that we just
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`08:06 5 mentioned, I don't think so.
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`08:06 6 Q Okay. What -- did you prepare for your
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`08:06 7 deposition today?
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`08:07 8 A Yes.
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`08:07 9 Q What did you do to prepare for your
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`08:07 10 deposition today?
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`08:07 11 MS. SIVINSKI: Dr. Sasián, I would caution
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`08:07 12 you not to disclose any conversations you had with
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`08:07 13 counsel in preparing for your deposition.
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`08:07 14 THE DEPONENT: I reviewed my declarations
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`08:07 15 and I reviewed the references. I reviewed a couple
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`08:07 16 of responses to some of my prior IPR cases.
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`08:07 17 BY MR. LINK:
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`08:07 18 Q Okay. Did you talk to anybody in
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`08:07 19 preparation for your deposition today?
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`08:07 20 MS. SIVINSKI: Again, Dr. Sasián, you can
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`08:07 21 answer that yes or no with respect to counsel, but
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`08:07 22 don't disclose any conversations you had with
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`08:07 23 counsel in preparation for your deposition.
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`08:07 24 THE DEPONENT: Yes.
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`25 ///
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`11
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 11
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`08:07 1 BY MR. LINK:
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`08:08 2 Q Okay. Did you talk to your counsel in
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`08:08 3 preparation for your deposition? Just yes or no.
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`08:08 4 A Yes.
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`08:08 5 Q Okay. Did you talk to anybody else other
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`08:08 6 than counsel in preparation for your deposition
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`08:08 7 today?
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`08:08 8 A No.
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`08:08 9 Q Okay. You said you reviewed a couple of
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`08:08 10 responses to some of your prior IPR cases. Which
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`08:08 11 IPR cases were those responses in?
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`08:08 12 A If I recall well, there were the previous
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`08:08 13 two cases where I was deposed about one month ago.
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`08:08 14 Q Okay. Did you write your declarations for
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`08:09 15 the '277 Patent and the '647 Patent?
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`08:09 16 A To some extent, yes.
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`08:09 17 Q When you say to some extent, what do you
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`08:09 18 mean?
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`08:09 19 MS. SIVINSKI: Dr. Sasián, again, I would
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`08:09 20 caution you not to disclose any communications you
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`08:09 21 had with counsel in preparing your deposition or the
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`08:09 22 substance of any communications you had with counsel
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`08:09 23 on that subject.
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`08:09 24 THE DEPONENT: Well, I wrote my
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`08:09 25 declarations with assistance from counsel to Apple.
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`12
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
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`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 12
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`08:09 1 BY MR. LINK:
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`08:09 2 Q Did anybody other than counsel for Apple
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`08:09 3 assist you in the preparation of either of those
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`08:09 4 declarations?
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`08:09 5 A Not that I know.
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`08:09 6 Q Okay.
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`08:10 7 Okay. I'm going to give a -- I'm going to
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`08:10 8 post it up here -- a copy of the -- your declaration
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`08:10 9 directed to the '647 Patent. And, actually, while
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`08:11 10 we're at it, since it will probably come up as well,
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`08:11 11 I'm going to put up the declaration for the
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`08:11 12 '277 Patent as well. But I wanted to look at the
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`08:11 13 one for the '647 Patent first, so if you can let me
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`08:11 14 know when you downloaded that or have that ready to
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`08:11 15 look at.
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`08:11 16 (Exhibit APPL-1003-896 and
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`12:13 17 Exhibit APPL-1003-897 marked.)
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`08:11 18 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER: Counsel,
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`08:11 19 this is the court reporter. Will we be doing the
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`08:11 20 exhibit numbers like we did earlier this week or
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`08:11 21 last week where it's APPL-1003-896 and dash 897,
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`08:11 22 respectively?
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`08:11 23 MR. LINK: Yes.
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`08:11 24 CERTIFIED SHORTHAND REPORTER: Okay. Thank
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`08:11 25 you.
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`13
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 13
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`
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`08:11 1 MR. LINK: And, Stephanie, just to let you
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`08:11 2 know, you folks were kind enough to use the same
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`08:11 3 exhibit number for the various exhibits, so we'll be
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`08:11 4 using those. But for two of them, the 101 and the
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`08:12 5 103 -- or, I'm sorry -- 1001, that was the
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`08:12 6 particular patent, and so we will assign that a
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`08:12 7 trailer that indicates which of the two IPRs it was
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`08:12 8 for. And, then, we're planning to do the same for
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`08:12 9 the 1003 just for clarity so that we can understand
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`08:12 10 what was discussed.
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`08:12 11 MS. SIVINSKI: Sounds great.
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`08:12 12 BY MR. LINK:
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`08:12 13 Q Okay. With respect, Dr. Sasián, to the --
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`08:12 14 your declaration for the '647 Patent, you state that
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`08:12 15 it's your opinion that Claims 1 through 5 are
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`08:12 16 obvious over a combination of Ogino and Chen II; is
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`08:12 17 that right?
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`08:12 18 A Yes.
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`08:12 19 Q Okay. Now, you don't offer any opinions
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`08:12 20 that Ogino alone teaches every element of Claims 1
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`08:13 21 through 4 of the '647 Patent; correct?
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`08:13 22 A No.
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`08:13 23 Q Okay. And you don't offer any opinions
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`08:13 24 that Chen II alone teaches every element of Claims 1
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`08:13 25 through 4 of the '647 Patent; correct?
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`14
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 14
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`
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`08:13 1 A Yes.
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`08:13 2 Q Okay. And in this declaration that you
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`08:13 3 provide regarding the '647 Patent, you state that
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`08:13 4 Claims 2, 3, 5, and 8 and 11 of the '647 Patent are
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`08:13 5 rendered obvious over the combination of Ogino,
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`08:13 6 Chen II, and Bareau; is that correct?
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`08:13 7 A I believe so.
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`08:13 8 Q Okay. And, again, you don't offer any
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`08:13 9 opinions that Ogino alone teaches every element of
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`08:13 10 Claims 2, 3, 5, or 8 through 11 of the '647 Patent,
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`08:14 11 do you?
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`08:14 12 A Not that Ogino alone renders obvious all
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`08:14 13 those claims.
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`08:14 14 Q Okay. And you don't offer any opinions
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`08:14 15 that Chen alone teaches every element of those
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`08:14 16 claims of the '647 Patent, do you?
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`08:14 17 A Not that Chen alone renders obvious all of
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`08:14 18 those claims.
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`08:14 19 Q All right. And you don't offer any
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`08:14 20 opinions that Bareau alone teaches every element of
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`08:14 21 these claims of the '647 Patent, do you?
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`08:14 22 A No, I don't.
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`08:14 23 Q And, then, I want to switch over real
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`08:15 24 quickly to the declaration for the '277 Patent. You
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`08:15 25 state that Claims 1 through 3 and 5 through 8 are
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`15
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 15
`
`
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`08:15 1 rendered obvious over Example 4 in Ogino and Bareau;
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`08:15 2 is that correct?
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`08:15 3 A I believe so.
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`08:15 4 Q Okay. And you don't offer any opinions
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`08:15 5 that Example 4 in Ogino alone teaches every element
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`08:15 6 of Claims 1 through 3 and 5 through 8 of the
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`08:15 7 '277 Patent, do you?
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`08:15 8 A No.
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`08:15 9 Q Okay. And you don't offer any opinions
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`08:15 10 that Bareau alone teaches every element of Claims 1
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`08:15 11 through 3 and 5 through 8 of the '277 Patent, do
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`08:15 12 you?
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`08:15 13 A No.
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`08:15 14 Q Okay. And, then, I think the second ground
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`08:15 15 of this declaration regarding the '277 Patent, you
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`08:15 16 state that Claims 1 through 24 are rendered obvious
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`08:15 17 over Example 5 in Ogino and Bareau; correct?
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`08:15 18 A I believe so.
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`08:15 19 Q Okay. And you don't offer any opinions
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`08:16 20 that Example 5 in Ogino alone teaches every element
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`08:16 21 of the claims of the '277 Patent, do you?
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`08:16 22 A No.
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`08:16 23 Q Okay. And you don't offer any opinions
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`08:16 24 that Bareau alone teaches every element of the
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`08:16 25 claims of the '277 Patent, do you?
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`16
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 16
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`
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`08:16 1 A No.
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`08:16 2 Q Okay. All right. So I want to start first
`
`08:16 3 talking and getting maybe a little into a bit more
`
`08:16 4 depth into the six -- the declaration for the
`
`08:16 5 '647 Patent.
`
`08:16 6 A Yes.
`
`08:16 7 Q And I'd like to turn to your first ground,
`
`08:16 8 which is that Claims 1 through 3 and 5 of the
`
`08:17 9 '647 Patent are obvious over Iwasaki. Do you see
`
`08:17 10 that ground?
`
`08:17 11 A Would you please tell me what page is it?
`
`08:17 12 Q Sure. Let me --
`
`08:17 13 A I think it's 24.
`
`08:17 14 Q Yeah. It's at 24, and your detailed
`
`08:17 15 analysis starts at 27. So do you see that?
`
`08:17 16 A Yes.
`
`08:17 17 Q Okay. In this Ground 1, you're only using
`
`08:17 18 Example 4 of Iwasaki; correct?
`
`08:17 19 MS. SIVINSKI: Objection. Form.
`
`08:18 20 THE DEPONENT: Well, I -- I am doing a
`
`08:18 21 combination to address how Claims 1, 3, and 5 are
`
`08:18 22 obvious, and the combination is with Ogino, Chen II,
`
`08:18 23 and Bareau. And then --
`
`08:18 24 BY MR. LINK:
`
`08:18 25 Q Well -- and I do want to get to that with
`
`17
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 17
`
`
`
`08:18 1 the combination, but I want to talk about, at
`
`08:18 2 page 24, just Iwasaki first.
`
`08:19 3 A Okay.
`
`08:19 4 Q Okay? And, specifically, so that -- you --
`
`08:19 5 Ground 1, you say that Claims 1 through 3 and 5 of
`
`08:19 6 the '647 Patent are obvious over Iwasaki; correct?
`
`08:19 7 A Yes.
`
`08:19 8 Q Okay. And for this obviousness analysis,
`
`08:19 9 you're only using Example 4 of Iwasaki; right?
`
`08:19 10 A Yes.
`
`08:19 11 Q Okay. You're not relying on any of the
`
`08:19 12 other examples, Example 1 or anything like that;
`
`08:19 13 correct?
`
`08:19 14 A No.
`
`08:19 15 MS. SIVINSKI: Objection. Form.
`
`08:19 16 Sorry, José.
`
`08:20 17 THE DEPONENT: I should -- I should say
`
`08:20 18 that I am relying on the Iwasaki reference as a
`
`08:20 19 whole, but in particular on Example 4.
`
`08:20 20 BY MR. LINK:
`
`08:20 21 Q Okay. Is there anyplace in your analysis
`
`08:20 22 of Claims 1 through 3 and 5 in view of Iwasaki that
`
`08:20 23 you cite to in example in Iwasaki that is not
`
`08:20 24 Example 4?
`
`08:20 25 A Not that I can recall right now.
`
`18
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 18
`
`
`
`08:20 1 Q Okay. All right. I want to move, then, to
`
`08:21 2 page 42 of your declaration. You have the heading
`
`08:21 3 B, which says, "Claims 1 and 4 are obvious over the
`
`08:21 4 combination of Ogino." However, I think what you
`
`08:21 5 mean is that should be Claims 1 through 4 are
`
`08:21 6 obvious over the combination of Ogino and Chen II.
`
`08:21 7 Can you confirm that?
`
`08:21 8 A I am getting there. Just a second, please.
`
`08:21 9 Q Sure.
`
`08:21 10 A Yes. On page -- on page 42, under B, it
`
`08:21 11 reads, "Claims 1 and 4 are obvious over the
`
`08:21 12 combination of Ogino." And somehow Chen is missing
`
`08:21 13 there.
`
`08:21 14 Q Okay. And I just want to be clear. You
`
`08:22 15 said Chen is missing. By Chen, you mean Chen II,
`
`08:22 16 which is U.S. Patent Number 8,233,224; correct?
`
`08:22 17 A Patent 8,233,224, yes. That's Chen II.
`
`08:22 18 Q Okay. And I'm going to use Chen II,
`
`08:22 19 because in your list of exhibits, you have another
`
`08:22 20 patent that's just Chen and so I want to make sure
`
`08:22 21 that we're clear which one we're referring to.
`
`08:22 22 Okay?
`
`08:22 23 A Yes. I believe they are different Chens.
`
`08:22 24 It's not the same person.
`
`08:22 25 Q Sure.
`
`19
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 19
`
`
`
`08:22 1 All right. Now, in this analysis where you
`
`08:23 2 say Claims 1 through 4 are obvious over Ogino and
`
`08:23 3 Chen II, you're relying on Example 5 in Ogino;
`
`08:23 4 right?
`
`08:23 5 A I am relying on Example 5 of Ogino, yes.
`
`08:23 6 Q All right. Great. And in this ground here
`
`08:23 7 where you say that Claims 1 and 4 of the '647 Patent
`
`08:23 8 are obvious over Ogino and Chen II, you are using
`
`08:23 9 only Example 1 in Chen II for this analysis;
`
`08:23 10 correct?
`
`08:23 11 MS. SIVINSKI: Objection. Form.
`
`08:24 12 THE DEPONENT: I am giving as an example
`
`08:24 13 Example 1 from Chen.
`
`08:24 14 BY MR. LINK:
`
`08:24 15 Q Okay. Do you, in your declaration with
`
`08:24 16 respect to this obviousness combination regarding
`
`08:24 17 Claims 1 and 4 of the '647 Patent -- do you cite to
`
`08:24 18 any of the other examples in Chen II?
`
`08:25 19 A Not that I can recall.
`
`08:25 20 Q Okay. And just to kind of show you where
`
`08:25 21 I'm going; right? There's five or six combinations
`
`08:25 22 in Ogino. There's two or three in Chen. And if you
`
`08:25 23 multiply those out, right, there's a lot of
`
`08:25 24 different combinations here. And so what I'm just
`
`08:25 25 trying to do is kind of figure out where it is that
`
`20
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 20
`
`
`
`08:25 1 we can focus on on the combinations that matter as
`
`08:25 2 opposed to the ones that you're not using.
`
`08:25 3 So I'd like to go -- excuse me. Pardon
`
`08:25 4 me -- to the next section of your report here, and
`
`08:25 5 that is at page 72, at the very bottom. And you'll
`
`08:26 6 see Section C says, "Claims 2, 3, 5 and 8 through 11
`
`08:26 7 are obvious over the combination of Ogino, Chen II,
`
`08:26 8 and Bareau." Do you see that?
`
`08:26 9 A You say page 74?
`
`08:26 10 Q Seventy-two.
`
`08:26 11 A Yes.
`
`08:26 12 Q Okay. And for this combination, is it
`
`08:26 13 correct that you are only using Example 5 in Ogino?
`
`08:26 14 MS. SIVINSKI: Objection. Form.
`
`08:27 15 THE DEPONENT: I am giving Example 5 of
`
`08:27 16 Ogino as an example.
`
`08:27 17 BY MR. LINK:
`
`08:27 18 Q Okay. Do you perform any analysis
`
`08:27 19 regarding Claims 2, 3, 5, and 8 through 11 regarding
`
`08:27 20 any other example in Ogino?
`
`08:27 21 A Not that I can recall.
`
`08:27 22 Q Okay. And for this Claims 2, 3, 5, and 8
`
`08:27 23 through 11 of the '647 Patent, is it correct that
`
`08:27 24 you are only using Example 1 in Chen II for your
`
`08:27 25 obviousness combination?
`
`21
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 21
`
`
`
`08:27 1 MS. SIVINSKI: Objection. Form.
`
`08:27 2 THE DEPONENT: Would you please repeat
`
`08:27 3 question?
`
`08:27 4 BY MR. LINK:
`
`08:27 5 Q Sure. So looking still at page 72 in your
`
`08:28 6 declaration where you state there in the heading,
`
`08:28 7 "Claims 2, 3, 5 and 8 through 11 are obvious over
`
`08:28 8 the combination of Ogino, Chen II, and Bareau," is
`
`08:28 9 it correct that you are only using Example 1 in
`
`08:28 10 Chen II for your obviousness analysis here?
`
`08:28 11 MS. SIVINSKI: Objection. Form.
`
`08:28 12 THE DEPONENT: Yes. I am using Example 1
`
`08:28 13 on Chen.
`
`08:28 14 BY MR. LINK:
`
`08:28 15 Q All right. And, then, turning to page 95
`
`08:29 16 of your declaration for the '647 Patent. Please let
`
`08:29 17 me know when you're there.
`
`08:29 18 A I am on page 95.
`
`08:29 19 Q Okay. And you'll see at that there is a
`
`08:29 20 heading D that says, "Claim 6 is rendered obvious
`
`08:29 21 over the combination of Ogino, Chen II, Bareau, and
`
`08:29 22 Kingslake." Do you see that?
`
`08:29 23 A Yes.
`
`08:29 24 Q Okay. In this combination regarding
`
`08:29 25 Claim 6 of the '647 Patent, is it correct that
`
`22
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 22
`
`
`
`08:29 1 you're only using Example 5 in Ogino for your
`
`08:29 2 obviousness analysis?
`
`08:29 3 MS. SIVINSKI: Objection. Form.
`
`08:30 4 THE DEPONENT: I am using Example 5 of
`
`08:30 5 Ogino for this analysis.
`
`08:30 6 BY MR. LINK:
`
`08:30 7 Q Okay. And, again, for this analysis with
`
`08:30 8 respect to Claim 6 of the '647 Patent, is it correct
`
`08:30 9 that you are only using Example 1 in Chen II for
`
`08:30 10 your obviousness analysis?
`
`08:30 11 MS. SIVINSKI: Objection. Form.
`
`08:30 12 THE DEPONENT: Yes.
`
`08:30 13 BY MR. LINK:
`
`08:30 14 Q Okay.
`
`08:30 15 A And I should say I am using Example 1 of
`
`08:31 16 Chen. I -- I wouldn't say, characterize, like,
`
`08:31 17 only.
`
`08:31 18 Q Where in this analysis with respect to
`
`08:31 19 Claim 6 of the '647 Patent do you cite to anything
`
`08:31 20 else in Chen II other than to Example 1?
`
`08:31 21 A Well, I am -- I am referencing the Chen
`
`08:31 22 reference as a whole.
`
`08:31 23 Q Do you provide any citations in Chen II to
`
`08:31 24 anything other than Example 1?
`
`08:31 25 A Not that I can recall now.
`
`23
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 23
`
`
`
`08:31 1 Q Okay.
`
`08:31 2 A Do you mind if I break for a couple of
`
`08:31 3 minutes?
`
`08:32 4 MR. LINK: Sure. We can take a break for
`
`08:32 5 five minutes and come back then.
`
`08:32 6 THE DEPONENT: Thank you.
`
`08:32 7 MR. LINK: Sure.
`
`08:32 8 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. We are going off
`
`08:32 9 the record at 8:32.
`
`08:32 10 (A recess was taken.)
`
`08:36 11 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. We are back on
`
`08:36 12 the record at 8:36.
`
`08:36 13 BY MR. LINK:
`
`08:36 14 Q Wonderful.
`
`08:36 15 Dr. Sasián, just before the break, there
`
`08:36 16 were two answers you had. One, you said, "I should
`
`08:36 17 say I'm using Example 1 of Chen." And then, later
`
`08:36 18 on, you said, "Well, I'm -- I'm referencing running
`
`08:36 19 the Chen reference as a whole." Do you recall
`
`08:36 20 making those statements?
`
`08:36 21 A Yes.
`
`08:36 22 Q Okay. And, again, just for the record
`
`08:37 23 here, when you're referring to Chen in those
`
`08:37 24 statements, you mean Chen II reference; correct?
`
`08:37 25 A That's correct.
`
`24
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 24
`
`
`
`08:37 1 Q Okay. Right. Because we're not talking
`
`08:37 2 about the Chen reference which is used or applied
`
`08:37 3 against some other claims. We're talking about
`
`08:37 4 Chen II for right now; right?
`
`08:37 5 A Yes. And in the same sense --
`
`08:37 6 Q Okay.
`
`08:37 7 A -- I should say that I am bringing -- I am
`
`08:37 8 referencing those patents not to say that I am
`
`08:37 9 limiting my choice of a particular section in those
`
`08:37 10 patents.
`
`08:37 11 Q Well, you can't just mix and match the
`
`08:37 12 different examples in, say, the Ogino reference, can
`
`08:37 13 you?
`
`08:37 14 MS. SIVINSKI: Objection. Form.
`
`08:37 15 THE DEPONENT: I haven't said that. I
`
`08:37 16 didn't say that.
`
`08:37 17 BY MR. LINK:
`
`08:37 18 Q Okay. So when you -- when you look at
`
`08:37 19 Example 5 in Ogino, for example, you know, that's
`
`08:38 20 the -- that's the setup you're starting with, and
`
`08:38 21 you can't just -- whatever modifications you made to
`
`08:38 22 that don't automatically translate to, say,
`
`08:38 23 Example 1 in Ogino; correct?
`
`08:38 24 A I'm not sure I follow what you say. Could
`
`08:38 25 you please repeat the question?
`
`25
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN
`
`APPLE V. COREPHOTONICS
`IPR2020-00896
`Exhibit 2003
`Page 25
`
`
`
`08:38 1 Q Sure. If you -- if you take Example 5 in
`
`08:38 2 Ogino and you change a couple focal lengths in the
`
`08:38 3 lenses and you change some distances, you can't make
`
`08:38 4 those -- to achieve a certain result, you can't make
`
`08:38 5 those exact same changes to Sample 1 and come up
`
`08:38 6 with the same result, can you?
`
`08:38 7 A For that, I would have to do the analysis
`
`08:38 8 to answer this question.
`
`08:38 9 Q Okay. You wouldn't assume that if you did
`
`08:39 10 that that the results would be the same, though,
`
`08:39 11 would you?
`
`08:39 12 A No. I would have to try.
`
`08:39 13 Q Okay. I'd like to move to the appendix in
`
`08:39 14 your '647 Patent. And we'll start at the first one,
`
`08:39 15 because -- and that's at page 143 of your
`
`08:39 16 declaration for the '647 Patent.
`
`08:40 17 A Yes.
`
`08:40 18 Q Okay. And in Section A, it says,
`
`08:4
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