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` EXHIBITS: 0
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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` GOOGLE LLC, SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD,
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` SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS AMERICA, INC., LG ELECTRONICS
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` INC., and LG ELECTRONICS U.S.A., INC.,
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` Petitioners,
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` v.
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` PARUS HOLDINGS, INC.,
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` Patent Owner.
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` REMOTE DEPOSITION OF ALEXANDER
`
` KURGANOV, called as a witness by and on behalf of
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` the Petitioners, pursuant to the applicable
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` provisions of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure,
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` before P. Jodi Ohnemus, (remotely) RPR, RMR, CRR,
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` CA-CSR #13192, NH-LSR #91, and MA-CSR #123193 at
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` Hudson, New Hampshire, on Wednesday, March 10,
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` 2021, commencing at 9:31 a.m.
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` Job No. CS4493560
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`800-567-8658
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`973-410-4098
`Google Exhibit 1050
`Google v. Parus
`IPR2020-00846
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` APPEARANCES:
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` (Via Videoconference)
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` WOLF, GREENFIELD & SACKS, P.C.
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` BY: Elisabeth H. Hunt, Esq.
`
` Anant Saraswat, Esq.
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` 600 Atlantic Avenue
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` Boston, MA 02210
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` 617 646-8000
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` Ehunt@wolfgreenfield.com
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` Asaraswat@wolfgreenfield.com
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` For the Petitioners
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` (Via Videoconference)
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` MINTZ, LEVIN, COHN,
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` FERRIS, GLOVSKY, AND POPEO
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` BY: Michael J. McNamara
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` Sean Casey, Esq.
`
` One Financial Center
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` Boston, MA 02111
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` 617 348-1884
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` Mmcnamara@mintz.com
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` Scasey@mintz.com
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` For the Patent Owner
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` ALSO PRESENT:
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` Eric Vavrasek, Veritext (remote)
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`800-567-8658
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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` I N D E X
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`Page 3
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` TESTIMONY OF: PAGE
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` ALEXANDER KURGANOV
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` (By Ms. Hunt) 5
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` E X H I B I T S
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` EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
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`Page 4
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` Exhibit 2020 previously marked 10
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` Exhibit 2023 previously marked 48
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` Exhibit 2025 previously marked 64
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` Exhibit 2032 previously marked 65
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` Exhibit 2058 previously marked 70
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` counsel.)
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`Page 5
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` ALEXANDER KURGANOV, having
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` first been duly sworn, was
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` examined and testified as
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` follows to interrogatories
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` MS. HUNT: Thanks, everyone, for your
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` patience in figuring out the technical issues.
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` MR. McNAMARA: Want to put appearances on
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` the record, Elisabeth?
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` MS. HUNT: Sorry?
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` MR. McNAMARA: Shall we put appearances on
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` the record?
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` MS. HUNT: I was -- yes.
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` So my name is Elisabeth Hunt. I'm counsel
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` for petitioner in these proceedings, who are
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` Google, Samsung Electronics, and LG Electronics.
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` My colleague, Anant Saraswat, is here with
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` me also for the petitioners.
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` Mike, do you want to do appearances on
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` your side?
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` MR. McNAMARA: This is Michael McNamara
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` from Mintz, on behalf of patent owner, Parus. With
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` me here today is Sean Casey and the witness, Alex
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` Kurganov.
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` BY MS. HUNT:
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` Q. Good morning, Mr. Kurganov. Again, thank
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` you for your patience and thank you for your time
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` today.
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` Could you please say and spell your full
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` name for the record.
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` (Court Reporter comment.)
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` A. Yes. A-l-e-x-a-n-d-e-r, first name, and
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` K-u-r-g-a-n-o-v, Kurganov, last name.
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` Q. All right. Today's deposition concerns
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` two cases: IPR 2020-00846 regarding the '431
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` patent, and IPR 2020-00847 regarding the '084
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` patent, both owned by Parus Holdings.
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` Do you understand that, Mr. Kurganov?
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` A. Yes, I do.
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` Q. And you have submitted a declaration in
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` these proceedings; correct?
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. So I will be asking you questions today
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` about your testimony in these proceedings, and the
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` court reporter will be transcribing my questions
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` and your answers for the record.
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` Do you understand that you need to give
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` audible answers to my questions so that the court
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` reporter can transcribe them?
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` A. Yes, I do.
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` Q. So, for example, instead of nodding or
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` shaking your head, you'll need to speak your
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` answers yes or no; okay?
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` A. Correct. Yes.
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` Q. And there may be times today when I ask a
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` question and patent owner's counsel makes an
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` objection to the question.
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` Do you understand that if that happens,
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` once counsel states their objection, you're still
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` required to answer the question unless counsel
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` specifically instructs you not to?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And if at any point today I ask a question
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` that you don't understand or that's not clear,
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` please ask me for a clarification before you
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` answer; all right?
`
` A. Okay.
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` Q. So I will try to watch the clock, and each
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` time we've been going for about an hour, we'll try
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` to take a break. But if you need to take a break
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` at any other point, feel free to let me know, and
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` we'll get to a convenient stopping point that's not
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` right in the middle of a question as soon as we
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` can; okay?
`
` A. Sure.
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` Q. Have you been informed that now that this
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` deposition has started, patent owner's counsel is
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` not permitted to discuss with you the substance of
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` your testimony for as long as we're still in the
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` period where it's my turn to ask questions?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And that includes during the breaks.
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` Do you understand that?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Are you under the influence of any
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` medication or other substance that would prevent
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` you from giving full, complete, and truthful
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` answers today?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Are you currently employed?
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` A. I'm self-employed.
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` Q. All right. What is your -- what is your
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` job that you're self-employed at?
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` A. I'm running a contract software
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` development business.
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` Q. So do you have multiple clients for whom
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` you contract for?
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` A. Yes, I do.
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` Q. Is the patent owner Parus Holdings one of
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` those clients?
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` A. No, but not -- not in the software
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` development. I consult with them for the issues of
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` intellectual property and other -- not engaged in
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` software development.
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` Q. Okay. What type of software do you
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` develop?
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` A. Various applications, web applications,
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` mobile applications. It's -- it's not me who
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` develops. I -- I act as sometimes an architect,
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` but the software developers are -- is a team that I
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` hire. And they develop various applications such
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` as, as I mentioned, web mobile applications and
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` some voice applications and some cloud -- cloud
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` infrastructure deployments. That type of thing.
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` Q. Okay. Did you look at any documents to
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` prepare for today's deposition?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And what documents did you look at?
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` A. I -- I looked at these binders that were
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` sent to me and just glanced through them -- what
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` was in those exhibits just to prepare for the
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` deposition.
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` Q. All right. So the binders that you
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` mentioned, are -- are those the two binders that
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` you received from us in a FedEx shipment this past
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` weekend?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Other than the documents that were in
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` those binders, did you look at any other documents
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` to prepare for today's deposition?
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` A. I don't think so.
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` Q. All right. So just to orient you to those
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` binders -- I know you said you already looked at
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` those -- one binder has your declaration and most
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` of its exhibits; Exhibit 2025 was a large one; so
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` we put that one in a separate binder.
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` Can you just confirm that -- that that's
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` what you're looking at? You have those two?
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` A. Let me -- 25, yes. Yes, I have both of
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` them.
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` Q. All right. So we may refer to the
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` documents in both those binders today.
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` So let's go ahead and look at, please,
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` your declaration, which is Exhibit 2020. It should
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` be the first document in one of those binders.
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` (Exhibit 2020, previously marked.)
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` A. The first documents are actually patents,
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` but --
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` Q. Oh, I'm sorry.
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` A. I found the declaration next.
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` Q. Okay. Exhibit 2020. It should be stapled
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` so you could -- you can go ahead and remove it from
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` the binder for ease of reference.
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` A. I just removed the staple and it's okay.
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` Q. Okay. As long as it's convenient for you
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` to look at it.
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` A. Yeah.
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` Q. So -- so you have what was -- has
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` previously been marked Exhibit 2020 in these
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` proceedings.
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` Do you recognize this as the declaration
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` that you submitted in these proceedings?
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` A. Yes, I do.
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` Q. All right. Could you go, please, to page
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` 2 of your declaration.
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` A. Okay. I see it.
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` Q. And do you see paragraph 3 on page 2?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. All right. So looking at the beginning of
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` paragraph 3, you stated in paragraph 3 of your
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` declaration that you worked at Webley Systems from
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` 1997 to 2010; is that right?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Was Webley your only employer during that
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` period?
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` A. Yes. It was -- it was a transition from
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` Vail Systems to Webley Systems. So it was --
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` Webley Systems was a spinoff from Vail Systems. So
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` at some point the employees -- some employees were
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` just transferred.
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` (Court Reporter comment.)
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` A. The parent company was Vail Systems, and
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` it spun off Webley Systems, and it just
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` transitioned -- they are in the same building, and
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` we are working on -- for Vail and then one day we
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` just transferred to another payroll simply. So...
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` But I -- I don't recall when that exact switch
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` came -- came about.
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` But probably '97.
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` Q. And you mentioned -- so for the court
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` reporter's benefit, I think Vail is V-a-i-l; is
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` that correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. You mentioned that Vail Systems spun off
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` Webley Systems; and they were in the same building?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Is that correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Where was that building located?
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` A. It was on -- in -- I think it was
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` Deerfield -- I think it was Deerfield, Illinois,
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` suburb of Chicago.
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` Q. All right. And you did not work for
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` anyone else other than Webley Systems between 1997
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`Page 13
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` and 2010; correct?
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. And in paragraph 3 of your declaration,
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` continuing on, in the second sentence you state
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` that "Webley is now Parus Holdings, Inc."; correct?
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. Does that mean that there was a company
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` that was formerly called Webley and it changed its
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` name to Parus Holdings?
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` A. I -- I don't recall the -- yes. So
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` they -- they probably did that at some point, but
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` I'm not sure how that structure worked exactly.
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` You know, the org structure and corporate
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` structure, I'm not sure.
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` Q. So -- so you're not sure if it was the
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` same company that just changed its name?
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` A. Yeah, it could be -- it could be a
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` holdings company and Webley System is still -- is
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` still a company. I'm not sure exactly how -- how
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` the corporate org structures work.
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` So it could be another holding company
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` or -- or it's the same company that became holding
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` company. I'm not totally sure.
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` Q. Okay. The next sentence in paragraph 3 of
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` your declaration says "From 2010 till the present
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` time, I have been working for Webley as a
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` consultant in the chief scientist role."
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. So are you currently doing consulting for
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` Webley or for Parus Holdings?
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` A. It's for -- currently it's for Parus
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` Holdings based on the 1099 that they sent to me.
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` It's from Parus Holdings.
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` Q. Okay. All right. Then looking a little
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` further down in paragraph 3 of your declaration,
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` starting about five lines up from the bottom of
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` page 2, you said "The Webley computer, internet,
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` and telecommunications based network system and the
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` first version of the Webley Assistant ('WA I') was
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` launched in 1997."
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. What was the Webley computer that you
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` mention in that sentence?
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` A. Webley computer, internet, network system.
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` It's not Webley computer. It's -- it's a statement
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` that says the Webley computer, internet, and
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` telecommunications based network system."
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` So it's a system that was launched by
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` Webley that include computer, internet, and
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` telecommunication based network. That's how that
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` has to be read.
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` Q. I see. So is it a network system based on
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` computer, internet, and telecommunications?
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` A. Right. That's how -- that's how this is
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` all presented, yes.
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` Q. Okay. The network system that you mention
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` in that sentence --
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` A. Uh-huh.
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` Q. -- strike that.
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` So in that sentence you mention a network
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` system, and then you mention a first version of the
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` Webley Assistant.
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` Are those two different things or the same
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` thing?
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` A. They are different things.
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` Q. Okay. So what was the network system?
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` A. Network system, as is mentioned somewhere,
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` is a cluster of servers that were located in the
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` network, telecommunication connections, and were --
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` established these clusters. And that -- that's
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` what we call a network system.
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` Q. Okay. By a "cluster of servers," do you
`
` mean a -- would that be a set of computers?
`
` A. Yes. Yes.
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` Q. Do you know how many computers?
`
` A. Well, I -- I -- it would be growing, you
`
` know, would be multiple. Those are different kinds
`
` of servers. You know, it's -- as traffic
`
` increases, then more would be added, but there
`
` would be many.
`
` Q. Okay. So the -- the network system in
`
` this sentence, you're talking about a -- a set of
`
` hardware; is that right?
`
` A. Yeah, a set of hardware servers, as well
`
` as some other network gear, you know, routers and
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` switches, that type of thing, to -- you know,
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` that -- that sort -- various types of hardware.
`
` Q. Okay. And, then, when that sentence then
`
` talks about the first version of the Webley
`
` Assistant, is that a software program?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And was that software program executed by
`
` a computer in the system that you mention in the
`
` sentence?
`
` A. Yes.
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` Q. And you said there are -- there's more
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` than one computer in the system; right?
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` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
`
` A. Well, yes. At that time when we were
`
` using it.
`
` Q. And so would -- would one of those
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` computers execute the Webley Assistant software
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` program?
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` A. Well, typically it will be more than one
`
` for redundancy, you know. So for this we try to --
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` not to have a single point of failure. So could
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` be -- could be two or more.
`
` Q. Okay. So how does that work? Would -- if
`
` you had -- strike that.
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` Would that mean that there would be two
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` computers and each would run a copy of the same
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` software program?
`
` A. Yes. Two or more.
`
` Q. All right. So two or more computers in
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` the server cluster and each would run a copy of the
`
` Webley Assistant software program; is that right?
`
` A. Well, some -- some that would -- would be
`
` dedicated to that role to run that particular
`
` application would -- would run on that, but there
`
` would be some other computers, potentially, that
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` would not run the software and serve another --
`
` another purpose.
`
` Q. Okay. I see the clarification.
`
` So the -- the server cluster might include
`
` other additional computers, but some -- two or more
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` computers within the cluster would each run a copy
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` of the Webley Assistant software program; is that
`
` right?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Okay. Now, I'm still looking at that same
`
` sentence in paragraph 3 of your declaration. It
`
` says something was launched in 1997.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Was it the system that was launched in
`
` 1997 or the first version of the Webley Assistant?
`
` A. First version of Webley Assistant.
`
` Q. Okay. So this sentence -- this sentence
`
` is not saying that the hardware system itself was
`
` launched in 1997?
`
` A. Well, yes, but -- but it's -- it was a
`
` combined thing; right? So one cannot -- I mean,
`
` Webley Assistant could not be launched by itself
`
` without that system. So it was one kind of
`
` offering.
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` Q. Okay. Did the system that you -- you
`
` called the Webley Assistant an offering. Did the
`
` network system provide other offerings besides the
`
` Webley Assistant?
`
` A. Well, we -- we had other -- Vail Systems
`
` had other applications before that which were
`
` running on a similar network system, but for Webley
`
` Assistant, we built a separate network system
`
` dedicated to Webley Assistant. That's why we
`
` separate from other Vail business.
`
` But it was a similar platform, but with
`
` different system that Webley Assistant application
`
` required some different capabilities. So that's
`
` why it's -- it was dedicated to that particular
`
` application.
`
` Q. Okay. The network system dedicated to the
`
` Webley Assistant, was that located in the building
`
` you mentioned in Illinois where Webley's office
`
` was?
`
` A. I believe -- and I -- I may not have full
`
` recollection -- I believe it was colocated -- that
`
` network system was at that time colocated with one
`
` of the providers, whether -- probably was Quest
`
` colocation space where those -- those -- that
`
` network system hardware was deployed, but I -- I do
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` not recall exactly.
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` In -- inside of the office we just had a
`
` test -- test version, just for our testing, but
`
` production network system was deployed in
`
` colocation space.
`
` Q. Okay. I want to make sure I understand
`
` your answer. So you mentioned the production
`
` network system. Is that a term for the network
`
` system we've been discussing that ran the Webley
`
` Assistant software?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And you said you believe that
`
` production network system was colocated with a
`
` provider -- possibly Quest.
`
` Is that what you said?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And I just want to understand what that
`
` means. Does -- so does -- does that mean it would
`
` have been located somewhere else other than
`
` Webley's office building?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. And you said inside Webley's office
`
` building in Deerfield, Illinois, you had a test
`
` version; is that right?
`
` A. Correct.
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` Q. What was the test version? Was that --
`
` did that have some hardware involved?
`
` A. Yes, but much smaller, on a much smaller
`
` footprint, but it -- it would allow us to have
`
` access to the hardware where we needed to
`
` experiment and test things before we -- we put them
`
` into the production environment, you know, for
`
` testing different -- new hardware arrived, and
`
` before we use it in production, we would need to
`
` test it very well. So we had some servers for
`
` testing purposes.
`
` Q. Okay. Just finishing up with the sentence
`
` we've been looking at in paragraph 3 of your
`
` declaration that ends by saying "...the first
`
` version of the Webley Assistant was launched in
`
` 1997."
`
` What does "launched" mean?
`
` A. It means it was publicly announced as a
`
` product, and, you know, it could be -- it -- it
`
` would be offered, you know, just like any other
`
` service.
`
` Q. So at the time it was launched, was the
`
` software program running on the production system?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And is that the point when the software
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` program was first run on the production system?
`
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
`
` A. Well, it was -- it was running before
`
` that, before the launch, obviously, we needed to
`
` make sure it functions, you know, very well before
`
` we announce to the public. So it was -- it was
`
` extensive -- extensively tested before that date of
`
` launch.
`
` Q. But you said you also had a testing system
`
` separate from the production system; right?
`
` A. Yes. That's where we -- we developed
`
` things much earlier before we -- before we were
`
` happy with the version, and we were running the
`
` test -- on the test system for a while; and when we
`
` identified that it's ready to go, then we deployed
`
` it to the production system -- into production
`
` system.
`
` We deploy the production system itself --
`
` hardware and everything -- and then test it there
`
` on the production system again.
`
` So we were very careful to make sure that
`
` the service we're going to be launching is going to
`
` be, you know, fault-free and work very well.
`
` Q. All right. Could you please turn to page
`
` 8 of your declaration.
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` A. I see it.
`
` Q. And I'm looking at paragraph 14.
`
` A. Sure.
`
` Q. So in paragraph 14 of your declaration you
`
` start by mentioning "The WA I was launched in
`
` 1997."
`
` And the "WA I" means Webley Assistant --
`
` the first version of the Webley Assistant software
`
` program; is that right?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. All right. And, then, in the next
`
` sentence of paragraph 14 you say, "This first
`
` version of the Webley Assistant was an application
`
` running on the Vail Systems' platform which was
`
` based on my design and implementation of a UNIX
`
` cluster of voice and web servers which shared
`
` several high-availability, redundant database
`
` servers."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. The UNIX cluster of voice and web servers
`
` that you mention in paragraph 14, is that the same
`
` production system that we've been discussing that
`
` you referred to in paragraph 3?
`
` A. Yes. Yes.
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` we turn, please, to page 17.
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` A. Okay.
`
` Q. I'm looking at paragraph 29.
`
` A. Uh-huh.
`
` Q. In paragraph 29 you say, "The Webley
`
` Assistant included a computer operatively connected
`
` to the internet."
`
` And then you have a citation.
`
` And then you say, "For example, as I show
`
` in the claim chart, the Webley Assistant was an
`
` application running on the Vail Systems' platform
`
` which was based on a UNIX cluster of voice and web
`
` servers which shared high availability, redundant
`
` database servers."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. The UNIX cluster of voice and web servers
`
` in paragraph 29, is that referring to the same
`
` production system you referred to in paragraph 14
`
` and paragraph 3?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` MR. McNAMARA: Objection.
`
` Q. So when you say in paragraph 29 that "The
`
` Webley Assistant included a computer operatively
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` connected to the internet," are you referring to a
`
` computer within the set of computers in the UNIX
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`Page 25
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` cluster?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And that is a computer in the production
`
` system that we've been discussing; correct?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. All right. Could we go back, please, to
`
` page 8 of your declaration.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. So I'm again looking at paragraph 14 on
`
` page 8. In paragraph 14, near the bottom of page 8
`
` you refer to "The source code of the main module
`
` that holds WA I application logic, mc_vm.c."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. What does "source code" mean?
`
` A. It's a -- source code. It's a -- it's a
`
` text of a -- of a program written, in this case, in
`
` C language.
`
` Q. Okay. So what does it mean -- what does
`
` the word "source" mean in "source code"?
`
` A. It's -- it's -- that's where -- the source
`
` from which the program is built. Source -- that's
`
` the initial place where the program is created. So
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` it's -- from it then you build -- you build the
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` actual program -- binary.
`
` Q. So you said from the source code you build
`
` an actual program which is a binary program; is
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` that right?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. And what do you mean by "actual" when you
`
` say "actual program"?
`
` A. Well, the program that corresponds to
`
` the -- to the source code. The one that we are
`
` discussing as Webley Assistant I.
`
` Q. The -- so building the binary program from
`
` the source code, is that what's called compiling?
`
` A. Not exactly. It is -- there's compilation
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` and then there's linking phase, and then after
`
` that, the program is created -- the binary is
`
` created.
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` So after compilation you have object code,
`
` which is not yet the program; and then, when the
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` object code is linked with various libraries, then
`
` the program binary is created.
`
` Q. Okay. So I think you mentioned source
`
` code, object code, and program binary as three
`
` things; is that right?
`
` A. Correct.
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` Q. Are any of those what's run on the
`
` production system?
`
` A. Yes, when -- when we build the program
`
` binary, that program binary is deployed to the
`
` production servers and runs there.
`
` Q. Okay. What does "deployed" mean?
`
` A. Just copied into -- into the particular
`
` location on the server -- on the server, you know,
`
` file system.
`
` Q. So the program binary is deployed to the
`
` production servers by copying it to some location
`
` on a production server?
`
` A. Correct. Production server hard drive.
`
` Q. And is the program binary copied to the
`
` production server from some other location?
`
` A. Yes, typically, because the -- the
`
` build -- the building process runs on the -- on a
`
` separate system and the production is not designed
`
` to -- to build things. It's a runtime environment.
`
` So building environment somewhere else,
`
` and, then, in that runtime environment, you see the
`
` binary, and you focus on running the binary -- and
`
` running software versus building software.
`
` Q. Okay. Where was the building environment
`
` for the Webley Assistant software?
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` A. The building environment would be on
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` our -- inside the office on -- on systems that --
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` development systems where, you know, software would
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` be constructed, built, tested, essentially on the
`
` test sy