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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`___________
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`___________
`
`SQUARE, INC.,
`
`Petitioner
`
`V.
`
`4361423 CANADA INC.
`
`Patent Owner
`
`___________
`
`Cases IPR2019-01625, IPR2019-01627, IPR2019-01629
`IPR2019-01649, IPR2019-01650
`
`VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF IVAN ZATKOVICH
`(Conducted Via Videoconference)
`
` DATE:
` TIME:
`and
` DATE:
` TIME:
`
` PURSUANT TO:
`
` BEFORE:
`
`September 14, 2020
`9:35 a.m. to 1:11 p.m.
`
`September 15, 2020
`10:39 a.m. to 4:34 p.m.
`
`Notice by counsel for
`Petitioner for all purposes
`permitted Federal Rules
`of Civil Procedure
`Nathan F. Perkins, RDR
`Notary Public, State of
`Florida at Large
`Pages 1 to 188
`
`Page 1
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`866 299-5127
`
`Square Exhibit 1041
`Square, Inc. v. 4361423 Canada Inc.
`IPR2019-01627
`Page 00001
`
`

`

`A P P E A R A N C E S :
` D A V I D M . T E N N A N T , E S Q U I R E
` W h i t e & C a s e L L P
` 7 0 1 T h i r t e e n t h S t r e e t N W
` W a s h i n g t o n , D C 2 0 0 0 5 - 3 8 0 7
`a n d
` G R A C E W A N G , P h . D . , E S Q U I R E
` W h i t e & C a s e , L L P
` 1 2 2 1 A v e n u e o f t h e A m e r i c a s
` N e w Y o r k , N e w Y o r k 1 0 0 2 0 - 1 0 9 5
`a n d
` S C O T T A . M c K E O W N , E S Q U I R E
` R o p e s & G r a y L L P
` 2 0 9 9 P e n n s y l v a n i a A v e n u e N W
` W a s h i n g t o n , D C 2 0 0 0 6
` A t t o r n e y s f o r P e t i t i o n e r
` J A S O N S . J A C K S O N , E S Q U I R E
` K u t a k R o c k L L P
` 1 8 0 1 C a l i f o r n i a S t r e e t
` D e n v e r , C o l o r a d o 8 0 2 0 2 - 2 6 5 2
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` N I A L L A . M a c L E O D , E S Q U I R E
` K u t a k R o c k L L P
` 6 0 S o u t h S i x t h S t r e e t , S u i t e 3 4 0 0
` M i n n e a p o l i s , M i n n e s o t a 5 5 4 0 2 - 4 0 1 8
` A t t o r n e y s f o r P a t e n t O w n e r
`
`V I D E O G R A P H E R : N I C H O L A S B O W E R ( 9 / 1 4 / 2 0 2 0 )
` M O N I C A B A N N O N ( 9 / 1 5 / 2 0 2 0 )
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`

`

` I N D E X
`
` DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. McKEOWN Page 6
`
` CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TENNANT Page 62
`
` CERTIFICATE OF OATH Page 185
`
` REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE Page 186
`
` WITNESS' SIGNATURE PAGE Page 187
`
` E X H I B I T S
`
`Petitioner's Description Page
`
`Exhibit 1001 '566 Patent 74
`
`Exhibit 1005 Provisional patent 78
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are going
`
` on the record at 9:35 a.m. on Monday September 14,
`
` 2020.
`
` Please note that microphones are sensitive and
`
` may pick up whispering, private conversations, and
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` cellular interference. Please turn off all cell
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` phones or place them away from the microphone, as
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` they can interfere with the deposition audio.
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` Audio and video recordings will take place unless
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` all parties agree to go off the record.
`
` This is Media Unit 1 of the video recorded
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` deposition of Ivan Zatkovich, taken by the counsel
`
` for plaintiff, in the matter of Square, Inc.,
`
` versus 4361423 Canada, Inc. This deposition is
`
` being held virtually over ZOOM.
`
` My name is Nicholas Bower, from the firm
`
` Veritext, and I'm the videographer. The court
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` reporter is Nathan Perkins, from the firm of
`
` Veritext. I am not authorized to administer an
`
` oath. I am not related to any parties in this
`
` action, nor am I financially interested in the
`
` outcome.
`
` Counsel and all present in the room and
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` everyone attending remotely will now state their
`
` appearance and affiliations for the record. If
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` there are any objections to the proceedings, please
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` state them at the time of your appearance,
`
` beginning with the noticing attorney.
`
` MR. McKEOWN: This is Scott McKeown, of Ropes
`
` & Gray. I'm joined today by Joseph Schenker, of
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` Ropes & Gray, appearing on a behalf of Square, Inc.
`
` White & Case.
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` MR. TENNANT: I'm sorry, I'm on mute. This is
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` David Tennant, from White & Case, on behalf of
`
` Square Inc. Joining with me is Dr. Grace Wang.
`
` MR. JACKSON: On behalf of Patent Owner
`
` 4361423 Canada, Jason Jackson and Niall MacLeod, of
`
` Kutak Rock.
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter
`
` please swear in the witness?
`
` THE REPORTER: The attorneys participating in
`
` this deposition acknowledge that I, the court
`
` reporter, am not present with the witness and that
`
` I will be reporting the proceedings and
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` administering the oath remotely. This arrangement
`
` is pursuant to Florida Supreme Court Administrative
`
` Order No. AOSC-20-16 and extended by Order No.
`
` AOSC-20-17. The parties and their counsel consent
`
` to this arrangement and waive any objections to
`
` this manner of reporting. Please indicate your
`
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` agreement by stating your name and your agreement
`
` on the record, first for the plaintiff.
`
` MR. McKEOWN: Scott McKeown, Ropes & Gray, for
`
` petitioner Square, Inc.
`
` MR. JACKSON: Jason Jackson, for patent owner
`
` 4321423 Canada.
`
` IVAN ZATKOVICH,
`
`the witness herein, being first duly sworn on oath, was
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`examined and deposed as follows:
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. We may proceed.
`
` DIRECT EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. McKEOWN:
`
` Q. State your name, full name for the record,
`
`just before we start.
`
` A. Ivan Zatkovich.
`
` Q. Good morning. As you have heard, my name is
`
`Scott McKeown. I'm an attorney for Square, Inc., and
`
`I'm joined today by another law firm of White & Case
`
`that may also be discussing some matters with you
`
`regarding declarations that you submitted with the
`
`Patent Trial and Appeal Board in certain IPR proceedings
`
`between Square Inc. and AnywhereCommerce. Do you
`
`understand that?
`
` A. I do.
`
` Q. And I apologize if I am not making eye contact
`
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`with you during this deposition. It's virtual, as you
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`know, and there's a lot of things going on. So
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`hopefully we won't have any technical issues, but we'll
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`see how it goes, and hopefully we can all bear with each
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`other.
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` But first up, some -- some background on your
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`declaration submission. So this will be, just so the
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`record is clear, IPR Proceeding 2019-1625, 1627, 1629,
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`1649 and 1650. I will not have a lot of background
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`questions, so if it's okay with you, I will then just
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`transition into the segment where we are discussing the
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`1625, '27, and 1629 proceedings. Does that sound okay?
`
` A. That's fine with me.
`
` Q. Okay. Do you have any paper materials in
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`front of you?
`
` A. I do.
`
` Q. What are they?
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` A. I have a printout of all or most of the prior
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`art, and I have a printout of my declarations,
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`petitions, and one paper copy of the 998 patent.
`
` Q. Okay. Great. We also, as you know, have a
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`portal interface where we can exchange electronic
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`documents. It sounds like you have paper copies of many
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`of the documents we will be discussing today, so maybe
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`we can forgo some of that technical exchange and you can
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`work from your paper copies and I'll work from the
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`copies that I have.
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` A. I have electrical copies too, and I have
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`multiple monitors, so I have plenty of screen space.
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` Q. Okay. If for some reason we exchange some
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`electronic documents today that are garbled, corrupted,
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`the resolution is hard to make out, please let me know,
`
`and then we will see what we can do to address that.
`
` So I presume you are using a personal computer
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`today to access this presentation and the exhibits; is
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`that right?
`
` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. Will you be using any other electronic devices
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`during this deposition?
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` A. Well, again, I have multiple screens, but
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`aside from that, no.
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` Q. Okay. And aside from ZOOM, your web browser,
`
`and the Exhibit Share software, will you be using any
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`other software applications or utilities during this
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`deposition?
`
` A. No, except possibly to open some Word
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`documents or PDF documents.
`
` Q. Understood. I know that you have been deposed
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`before, but we'll just briefly go through the basics
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`just so the record is clear. I will be asking you a
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`series of questions. You are expected to answer those
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`questions unless counsel for Patent Owner instructs you
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`not to answer. Do you understand that?
`
` A. I do.
`
` Q. If I ask you a question that's in any way
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`confusing or you don't quite understand the terminology
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`or any aspect of a question, please seek clarification.
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`Obviously, we have a court reporter on the line, and so
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`we need loud and clear statements so that the transcript
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`is accurate. So I would just ask you to remember those
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`basics.
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` If you need a break for whatever reason, feel
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`free to request one. We're pretty flexible. I'll try
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`to break every hour or thereabouts. I just ask that you
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`don't ask for a break while a question is pending.
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` And as I mentioned, your attorney may object
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`along the way, but unless you are specifically
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`instructed not to answer, then I would expect an answer.
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` So is all of that clear?
`
` A. Sure. Just in general, I prefer to take a
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`late brunch -- I'm sorry, a late lunch after 1:00. Some
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`time between 1:00 and 2:00 would be great.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. That should be fine.
`
` Q. So as I mentioned, I'll be talking to you
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`about a number of IPR proceedings. I referred to them
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`earlier as the 1625, 1627, 1629, 1649, and 1650. And at
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`least for the 1625 that relates to Patent 8286875, the
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`'27 proceedings is 8281998, and the 1629 proceeding is
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`9269084.
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` If I refer to the patent as the '875 patent,
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`are you familiar with that kind of nomenclature?
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` A. Yes, I am.
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` Q. Okay. And if I refer to the 1625 or 1627
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`proceeding, you can also understand that, correct?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. Okay. And we are grouping these proceedings
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`sort of into pile, for lack of a better word. So if I
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`ask a question that the answer may differ slightly for
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`one of these as compared to the other, I will try to
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`remember to emphasize that in my question. And if your
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`answer needs to emphasize that kind of distinction,
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`please also remember to do that.
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` Okay. So I understand you have paper copies
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`of your declarations for the 1625, '27 and 1629
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`proceeding; is that right?
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` A. I actually have paper declarations for the
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`1627, 1629 and 1650. I have electronic copies of the
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`other two.
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` Q. Okay. And you are comfortable using those
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`electronic copies then?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. So do you have the copies of these
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`exhibits that were filed and that include your
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`signature?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And is there any aspect of these
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`declarations content-wise, typographical, that you would
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`like to correct or point out before we begin?
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` A. I did notice when I was reviewing the
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`declarations that there was a couple typos. I don't
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`recall off the top of my head, but if I spot them I will
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`let you know.
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` Q. But no issues that would impact the content,
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`the technical content of the statements?
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` A. Not that I am aware of, no.
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` Q. Do you recall how much time you spent
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`preparing these declarations?
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` A. Oh. I would say somewhere between 100 and 200
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`hours.
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` Q. And is that evenly divided across these five
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`proceedings, or were there different efforts for one or
`
`another?
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` A. I would say the significant effort was spent
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`on the first two, the 1625 and 1627. So there's a lot
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`of common prior art. I would say there was somewhat
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`less time spent on the subsequent petitions and
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`declarations.
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` Q. Okay. And did you communicate with anyone in
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`the process of preparing these declarations?
`
` A. I did.
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` Q. And who were those?
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` A. I spoke with counsel at Kutak Rock.
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` Q. Anyone else?
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` A. I have the consultant that assisted me in
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`preparing some of the material, Virginia Lee.
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` Q. Is that consultant employed by you?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. In what capacity?
`
` A. As an assistant.
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` Q. Is this an assistant for your work, consulting
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`work for legal cases, or for more general roles?
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` A. Both. Both.
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` Q. And what was her contribution to the
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`declarations?
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` A. For example, there's, again, common material
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`and common arguments across some of the declarations. I
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`would lay out the arguments for specific claim elements
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`and specific prior art, and I would instruct Ms. Lee to
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`apply those same material to the appropriate other
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`declarations, substituting the correct references.
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` Q. And what is Ms. Lee's educational background?
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` A. She has a bachelor's in computer science and
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`she has a master's in business administration.
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` Q. And how long has she been in your employ?
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` A. Off and on, she has consulted with me for
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`approximately 20 years.
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` Q. Did you or Ms. Lee provide the first draft of
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`these declarations?
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` A. I prepared the first draft of these
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`declarations.
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` Q. And was that provided to the law firm Kutak
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`Rock?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. And were there iterations of the first draft,
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`or was the first draft essentially the final?
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` A. Yes.
`
` Q. The first draft was the final?
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` A. I'm sorry. No, there were multiple
`
`iterations.
`
` Q. Okay. Did you save those iterations?
`
` A. I may have. I don't recall.
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` Q. And where would you want to save them, if you
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`saved them?
`
` A. I would have saved them in an archive folder.
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` Q. Did anyone else participate in the drafts
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`process other than you and Ms. Lee and the Kutak Rock
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`attorney?
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` A. No.
`
` Q. Did you review any materials in preparation
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`for today's deposition?
`
` A. I did.
`
` Q. And what materials were they?
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` A. I reviewed the prior art petitions and my
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`declarations.
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` Q. Anything else?
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` A. I had several references that I -- extrinsic
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`references that I footnoted within my declarations. I
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`reviewed some of those.
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` Q. Okay. And how much time did you spend
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`preparing for today?
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` A. For these five declarations? I would say
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`approximately 50 to 55 hours.
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` Q. Did you meet with anyone?
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` A. I did.
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` Q. Who was that?
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` A. I met with counsel.
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` Q. Was that a virtual meeting?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And how long did those meetings last?
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`four-or-five-hour meeting on -- on Friday, and a
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`three-hour meeting on Saturday.
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` Q. All right. At this point I'm going to
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`transition into the questions about the three, 1625,
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`1627, and 1629 proceedings. So I don't have any more
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`questions on general background issues.
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` I would ask you to open -- you said you had an
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`electronic copy of the '875 declaration.
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. Let me know when you have got that up.
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` A. I have that.
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` Q. Okay. Take a look at paragraph 8.
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` A. I see that.
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` Q. In that paragraph you state that you have
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`reviewed a number of documents that are listed in that
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`paragraph, but your review was not --
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` A. I'm sorry, I missed the last.
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` Q. I'm wondering if you can --
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` So let me start over. So in paragraph 8
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`you've stated that you reviewed certain materials that
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`are -- that are listed in that paragraph. Do you see
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`that?
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. Okay. And you say that these include but are
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`not limited to. And I'm just wondering what additional
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`documents you may have reviewed that are not listed
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`there.
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` A. I reviewed the ISO specifications related to
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`EMV card and IDN/NFC standards. I have reviewed
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`standard ISO standards related to mag stripe. And
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`again, I believe I've footnoted some other documents
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`that I reviewed.
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` Q. And you also reviewed the McNair declaration
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`that I sent?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. Okay.
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` MR. JACKSON: Counsel, sorry to interrupt. If
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` you could please enable us to view those exhibits
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` on Exhibit Share, that would be very helpful so we
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` can follow long with the correct exhibit numbers.
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` MR. McKEOWN: Sure. Let me just put that in
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` there.
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` All right. You should see it in your
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` Previously Marked folder. Let me know.
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` MR. JACKSON: Not there. I don't see anything
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` in Marked Exhibits yet.
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` VERITEXT TECHNICIAN MCMILLAN: You've got to
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` enter -- introduce it into the Previously Marked
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` folder.
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` (A discussion off the record)
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`BY MR. McKEOWN:
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` Q. In paragraph 8 you state that you have
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`reviewed the patent owner preliminary response. Have
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`you reviewed the patent owner response that was filed
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`most recently?
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` A. No, I don't believe I have.
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` Q. Okay. You stated that you have a copy of the
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`'875 patent; is that right?
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` A. That's correct.
`
` Q. Okay. Let me introduce that and see -- into
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`the Marked Exhibit folder. One second.
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` If you could go to column 1 of the '875
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`patent.
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` A. I have that.
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` Q. Okay. Right around line 26 under the heading
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`Background of the Invention, there's a sentence that
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`reads, "Electronic fund transfers over mobile phones is
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`growing popular. Many systems include combining a
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`point-of-sale (POS) device with a wireless communication
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`device, such as a cell phone."
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` Do you see that?
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` A. I do.
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` Q. Do you agree at the time of the filing that
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`statement was true?
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` MR. JACKSON: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: I would say that at the time of
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` this invention there were wireless communications
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` devices there that were integrated with some POS
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` devices, yes.
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`BY MR. McKEOWN:
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` Q. And were those POS devices portable?
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` A. I'm not aware of any portable POS devices at
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`the time.
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` (A discussion off the record)
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` (A pause in the proceedings for the court
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` reporter.)
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` THE WITNESS: I believe my answer was, I don't
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` recall any ones in particular other than for, for
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` example, restaurants that used portable point of
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` sale devices.
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` (A pause was had in the proceedings.)
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`BY MR. McKEOWN:
`
` Q. Towards the bottom of that same column 1, sort
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`of one or two lines up there's a couple systems
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`mentioned there, PayPal Mobile, Obopay, SwipePay Mobile.
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`Are you familiar with those?
`
` A. I'm not familiar with Obopay.
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` Q. But PayPal Mobile, was that a portable device?
`
` A. Well, PayPal Mobile is an application on a
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`mobile device. It depends on what you consider a
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`point-of-sale device. I consider, for example, mobile
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`applications on a phone a self-pay device.
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` Q. But you don't dispute that mobile phones are
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`portable, do you?
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` A. Yes, mobile phones are portable.
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` Q. Okay. What about SwipePay Mobile? Was that a
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`portable reader?
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` A. Yes. Again, I believe that was an application
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`on a mobile phone.
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` Q. Okay. Going back up to the top of that
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`background of the invention section, right around line
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`30, there's a sentence that reads, "These POS devices
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`include a processor as well as an input device to
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`receive and process information from the transaction
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`card such as a debit card, a credit card, a cash card, a
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`store value card, an ATM card or any combination thereof
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`and the like."
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` Do you see that?
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` A. I do.
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` Q. Is that an accurate statement?
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` MR. JACKSON: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Yes.
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`BY MR. McKEOWN:
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` Q. And would the processor of these POS devices
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`manage verification of credit card data before sending
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`it?
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` MR. JACKSON: Objection, foundation.
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` THE WITNESS: Sorry. Could you repeat that?
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`BY MR. McKEOWN:
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` Q. Sure. When you are using a point-of-sale
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`terminal, the idea is to conduct a credit card
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`transaction, correct?
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. And when you conduct that transaction with
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`these known terminals that include a processor, would
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`that processor verify the credit card data before
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`sending it?
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` MR. JACKSON: Objection, foundation.
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` THE WITNESS: Well, there are -- there's
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` multiple levels of verification. For example, mag
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` stripe has built features, built into the data to
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` allow you to verify the information that was
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` received. It wouldn't necessarily verify that the
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` account existed or whether you have funds in the
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` account but it could verify if the data read from
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` the mage stripe was most likely valid or whether
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` there was an error in transmission. So to that
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` extent, yes, the processor on the POS device would
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` verify the card data.
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`BY MR. McKEOWN:
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` Q. So things like country abode and data fields
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`like that would be verified?
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` A. Not necessarily. For example, it might verify
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`card type. But again, in general it just wants to
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`verify that it retrieved all the information on the mag
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`stripe, on the track, and in some cases it might verify
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`the format of the data, but it wouldn't, for example,
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`verify the person's zip code, the spelling of the
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`person's name, the validity of the account number
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`itself, things like that.
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` Q. Understood. And presumably the bank or
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`transaction server would be verifying that information;
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`is that correct?
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` A. Correct.
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` Q. How did known --
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` Well, strike that.
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` So these POS devices that are discussed in the
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`background, how did they communicate with the
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`transaction server?
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` MR. JACKSON: Objection to form, foundation.
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` THE WITNESS: The POS devices generally
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` connected with transaction servers, such as a
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` payment gateway, so that it could access the
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` banking network or the payment network in order to
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` transmit the transaction information.
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`BY MR. McKEOWN:
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` Q. And what medium would be used for that access?
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` A. Generally, the Internet or other potentially
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`private networks.
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` Q. Would these be over the plain old telephone
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`system lines or something different?
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` A. Yes. One mechanism would be to connect a
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`point-of-sale device to a landline in order to connect
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`to a transaction server.
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` Q. And how would that communication be conducted
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`by the POS device?
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` A. The POS device would make -- would dial a
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`number of a transaction server, make a connection with
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`that transaction server and then exchange the
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`transaction information.
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` Q. And what would be the electrical format of
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`that signal?
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` MR. JACKSON: Objection to form, foundation.
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` THE WITNESS: If they were communicating over
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` a landline phone, most likely a modem signal.
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`BY MR. McKEOWN:
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` Q. Can you describe a modem signal?
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` A. Sure. A modem signal uses frequencies to
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`encode digital information as well as phase shifting of
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`the sine wave, the tone sine waves.
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` Q. And that's an analog transmission that goes
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`over the voice channel?
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` A. Yes, I'd say that is an accurate
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`characterization.
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` Q. You mentioned phase shifting. Are you
`
`referring to phase-shift keying?
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` A. Phase-shift keying is a type of face shifting,
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`yes.
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` Q. And that's a modulation scheme, isn't it?
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` A. I wouldn't specifically call it a modulation
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`scheme. It is looking at -- well, I guess it is looking
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`at the modulation of the wave, but instead of frequency
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`modulation or amplitude modulation, it looks at what
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`quadrant of -- what quadrant, whether it's zero degrees,
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`for example, or 90 degrees shifted from other sine waves
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`being transmitted.
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` Q. Did modems employ other techniques other than
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`phase shifting?
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` MR. JACKSON: Objection, foundation.
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` THE WITNESS: There's other sophisticated
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` types of modems that were used. And I believe
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` there were some esoteric type technologies used.
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` But common modems of that time primarily relied on
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` frequency modulation and phase-shift keying.
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`BY MR. McKEOWN:
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` Q. What are some of the esoteric ones you
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`remember?
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` A. I'm trying to recall some of the experimental
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`modems that were used before phase shifting. I don't
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`recall the name of the specific technique, but it
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`involved -- for example, one technique that was
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`attempted at one time was Fourier transform to encode
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`additional information. But that required a lot of
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`processing power. So that was -- that was used, for
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`example, that was experimented for for military
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`applications. That was one of the examples that I was
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`aware of at the time.
`
` Q. Let me go back to that sentence that starts on
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`line 30, "These POS devices include a processor as well
`
`as an input device." Specifically looking at the input
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`device, and there's a sentence that begins after that
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`first sentence that states, "The input device may
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`include a bar code reader, a magnetic stripe reader, an
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`integrated circuit reader, a smart card reader, a
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`fingerprint scanner, an optical scanner, a signature
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`pad, an alphanumeric keypad (including a PIN pad), a
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`proximity detector, an audio recording device, a camera
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`or combination thereof, and the like."
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` Do you see that?
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` A. I do.
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` Q. Is that statement about known input devices
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`accurate?
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` MR. JACKSON: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: I'm only aware of the subset of
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` those that were used for POS devices.
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`BY MR. McKEOWN:
`
` Q. And what is that subset?
`
` A. Certainly, a magnetic stripe reader, an
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`integrated circuit reader, which would be also part of
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`the smart card reader. Alphanumeric keypads was a type
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`of input device. Signature pads were used. I guess
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`you'd consider cameras used at ATMs, but not as an input
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`device for a transaction card. Optical scanners could
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`be used, for example, for coupons, but they wouldn't be
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`used to actually initiate the transactions. Well, those
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`are the ones that I recall.
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` Q. But you don't dispute that integrated circuit
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`readers and smart card readers were known?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Let's go back to the declaration of the '875
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`patent. Paragraph 16, which looks like it starts on
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`page -- I don't have a page number. Paragraph 16.
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` A. I have that.
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` Q. Okay. Do you recognize that as Claim 1 of the
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`'875 patent?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. Can you identify the preamble portion of that
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`claim?
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` A. I believe the preamble would be considered the
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`portion that reads, "An apparatus for effecting
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`commercial tractions between an input device and a
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`remote transaction server using a transaction card, said
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`apparatus comprising an input device for capturing
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`information from the transaction card."
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` Q. Okay. And then you would recognize the
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`remainder of the claim as the body of the claim; is that
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`correct?
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` A. That's correct.
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` Q. Further down, paragraph 19, there is a second
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`sentence in that paragraph that reads, "Some claims
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`require that the apparatus for effecting the
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`transactions be portable."
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A. I do.
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` Q. Is one of those claims Claim 1?
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` A. No. I don't believe Claim 1 requires the card
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`reader to be portable.
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` Q. Let's go back to the '875 patent. And we can
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`identify which claims you believe require portability.
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` Do you have the claim set in front of you?
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` A. I do.
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` Q. Okay. So the question pending is, which --
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` Or let me simplify it. Which independent
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`claims required portability?
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` A. I cannot identify any independent claim
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`requiring a portable device.
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` Q. So you are not sure which claims required
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`portability?
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` A. No. I'm saying I don't identify any
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`independent claims requiring a portable device other
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`than Claim 18.
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` We're just talking about indepen

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