`
`Transcript of Don Turnbull, Ph.D.
`
`Date: September 30, 2020
`Case: Roku, Inc. et al. -v- Universal Electronics, Inc. et al. (PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email:: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`Roku EX1053
`IPR2019-01615
`U.S. Patent No. 9,716,853
`
`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` --------------------
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` --------------------
` ROKU, INC.,
` Petitioner,
` v.
` UNIVERSAL ELECTRONICS, INC.,
` Patent Owner.
` --------------------
` Case IPR2019-01615
` U.S. Patent 9,716,853
` --------------------
` Deposition of DON TURNBULL, PH.D.
` Conducted Virtually
` Wednesday, September 30, 2020
` 11:04 a.m.
`
`Job No.: 324214
`Pages 1 - 130
`Reported by: Matthew Goldstein, RPR
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`2
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` Deposition of DON TURNBULL, PH.D., conducted
`virtually:
`
` Pursuant to Notice, before Matthew Goldstein,
`RPR, Notary Public in and for the State of
`Maryland.
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`Transcript of Don Turnbull, Ph.D.
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`3
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
`JON E. WRIGHT, ESQUIRE
`ALI ALLAWI, ESQUIRE
`STERNE KESSLER GOLDSTEIN & FOX, PLLC
`1100 New York Avenue, NW
`Suite 600
`Washington, DC 20005
`202.371.2600
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
`JAMES J. LUKAS, JR., ESQUIRE
`GREENBERG TRAURIG, LLP
`77 West Wacker Drive
`Suite 3100
`Chicago, Illinois 60601
`312.456.1038
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`Transcript of Don Turnbull, Ph.D.
`Conducted on September 30, 2020
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`4
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S C O N T I N U E D
` ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
` TOM DAVISON, ESQUIRE
` ALSTON & BIRD, LLP
` 950 F Street, NW
` Washington, D.C. 20004
` 202.239.3300
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`5
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` C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION OF DON TURNBULL, PH.D. PAGE
`
`By MR. WRIGHT 7
` E X H I B I T S
` (Attached)
` DEPOSITION EXHIBIT PAGE
`
` Exhibit 1001 Previously Marked, U.S. Patent 19
` No. 9,716,853
` Exhibit 1005 Previously Marked, Pub. No.: US 20
` 2012/0249890 A1
` Exhibit 1006 Previously Marked, Pub. No.: US 21
` 2009/0254500 A1
` Exhibit 1010 Previously Marked, 21
` High-Definition Multimedia
` Interface Specification Version
` 1.3a
` Exhibit 2001 Previously Marked, Declaration 10
` of Dr. Don Turnbull in Support
` of Patent Owner Universal
` Electronics Inc.’S Preliminary
` Response to Petition for Inter
` Partes Review of United States
` Patent No. 9,716,853
` Exhibit 2002 Previously Marked, Declaration 10
` of Dr. Don Turnbull in Support
` of Patent Owner’S Response
` Exhibit 2100 Previously Marked, Don 22
` Turnbull, Ph.D. Curriculum
` Vitae
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`6
`
` THE REPORTER: Good morning. Will
`counsel please stipulate that in lieu of formally
`swearing in the witness, the reporter will instead
`ask the witness to acknowledge that their
`testimony will be true under the penalties of
`perjury, that counsel will not object to the
`admissibility of the transcript based on
`proceeding in this way, and that the witness has
`verified that he is, in fact, Don Turnbull.
` MR. LUKAS: Yes, for the patent owner
`and the witness.
` MR. WRIGHT: And same for the
`petitioner. So stipulate.
` THE REPORTER: Okay. Good morning, sir.
` Do you hereby acknowledge that your
`testimony will be true under the penalties of
`perjury?
` THE WITNESS: I do.
` THE REPORTER: Okay. Thank you.
` Whenever you're ready, Counsel.
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`7
`
` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PETITIONER
`BY MR. WRIGHT:
` Q. Okay. Dr. Turnbull, good morning.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Can you just state your full name for
`the record.
` A. Yeah. Donald Ray Turnbull, Jr., or Don
`Turnbull.
` Q. Okay.
` MR. LUKAS: Jon, can we just announce
`our appearances? Is that okay?
` MR. WRIGHT: Yeah, sure. Let's go ahead
`and do that. I was going to pull out the notice
`of deposition and do it, but that's fine. I'll
`start.
` This is Jon Wright from Sterne Kessler
`Goldstein & Fox representing the petitioner, Roku,
`in IPR -- or sorry -- before the United States
`Patent and Trademark Office, Patent Trial and
`Appeal Board, in Inter Partes Review 2019-01615.
`And with me today, remotely as well, from Sterne
`Kessler is Ali Allawi.
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`8
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` MR. LUKAS: Good morning. This is James
`Lukas from the law firm of Greenberg Traurig on
`behalf of the patent owner, Universal Electronics,
`Inc. and also the witness, Dr. Don Turnbull. And
`I believe also listening in is Tom Davison,
`attorney for the patent owner, Universal
`Electronics.
`BY MR. WRIGHT:
` Q. Okay. So, Dr. Turnbull, did you receive
`a box of exhibits in the mail in advance of this
`deposition?
` Dr. Turnbull, can you hear me?
` A. Yes. I was trying to mute. Every once
`in a while, I have some sirens go by.
` Yes, I received the box.
` Q. Great.
` Can you go ahead and open that box.
` A. Okay. It's got the pull on one side of
`it I guess there. All right. I've got everything
`out of it.
` Q. Great.
` And having watched you open the box, I'm
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`9
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`assuming that you did not inspect the contents
`before the deposition. Just confirm that.
` A. No, sir.
` Q. Great.
` And could you find the document
`entitled, "Patent Owner's Notice of Remote
`Deposition."
` A. Okay. Are they numbered here?
` Q. It's -- it's a paper, I believe.
` A. Okay. So not in a file folder?
` Q. Pretty thin paper.
` A. Okay. Okay. I don't see it so let me
`start again here. Petition. Notice of
`deposition?
` Q. That's it.
` A. Okay. I see it here. It says
`number 21, Exhibit 21, I guess.
` Q. Probably Paper -- Paper 21.
` A. Uh-huh.
` Q. So could you just inspect the caption
`there. It has the name of the proceeding and the
`inter partes review number. I think it also has
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`10
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`the patent listed there.
` A. Yes.
` Q. Let me know when you see it.
` A. Yes, I see that.
` Q. Okay. And can we just confirm that it's
`your understanding that you're being deposed today
`on the declaration that you -- I'm sorry -- the
`declarations that you submitted in the proceeding
`that's listed on the notice of deposition?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And could you also pull out right now
`Exhibits 2001 and 2002.
` (Exhibit 2001, Previously Marked.)
` (Exhibit 2002, Previously Marked.)
` THE WITNESS: I've got the petition.
`I've moved the order around. So let me do some
`housekeeping to get them more organized if you
`don't mind.
` Q. No worries.
` A. Exhibit 1, the '853 patent, so I've at
`least got those two out here. Okay.
` Q. So do you have Exhibits 2001 and 2002?
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`11
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` A. I guess the one that says Exhibit 2,
`petition, is what you mean. It doesn't have a
`label on the page.
` Q. No, the --
` A. Okay.
` Q. -- the petition is Paper 2 in the
`proceeding. There should be some exhibit --
` A. I see. I've got an Exhibit 1001, the
`'853 patent. Exhibit 2001?
` Q. 2001 and 2002.
` A. Okay. Okay. I've got both of those
`here.
` Q. Great.
` And do you recognize those two exhibits?
` A. Yes. The first one is one of my
`declarations. And the second is -- oh, the other
`declaration. Yes, I recognize them.
` Q. Okay. Great.
` And just to confirm, Exhibit 2001 is the
`declaration that you submitted in support of the
`patent owner's preliminary response to the
`petition; is that right?
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`12
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` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And Exhibit 2002 is your
`declaration in support of the patent owner's
`response; is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And you recognize both of those
`documents?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Right. And it's your understanding
`today that you're being deposed on these two
`declarations; correct?
` A. That's right.
` Q. Okay. And could you just flip to the
`back page of each and confirm that that's -- that
`that's your signature.
` A. Yes, both of them contain my signature.
` Q. And do they appear to be complete copies
`of your exhibits insofar as they aren't missing
`any pages? Can you just confirm that for me.
` A. Okay. They appear to be complete.
` Q. Okay. Thank you.
` So have you been deposed before,
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`13
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`Dr. Turnbull?
` A. Yes, sir.
` Q. Okay. Around how many times?
` A. More than a dozen.
` Q. Okay. So because of that, I'll just
`really quickly cover the ground rules.
` You understand the importance of verbal
`answers in depositions; right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And have you done a remote deposition
`before? Is this your first one?
` A. This would be my first remote
`deposition.
` Q. Okay. So sometimes with the remote
`depositions, it's a little bit more challenging
`with respect to not speaking over each other, but
`I think we can agree that we'll both be sensitive
`to the fact that it's a remote deposition and
`we'll endeavor not to speak over each other and
`give appropriate pauses so we'll make sure we're
`done speaking. Can we agree to that?
` A. I agree. I'll do my best. I'll maybe
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`14
`
`caveat that, like I said, I'm on a busy street.
`Every once in a while there's a siren, so if it
`bothers things, I can mute temporarily. Or maybe
`if you're speaking at some point, I might mute
`while you're talking just to avoid having the
`background noise for you all, but other than that,
`I'll do my best.
` Q. I understand. I have got a fire
`department just up the street from me as well.
` A. Yeah, me too.
` Q. So if you don't understand a question
`that I ask or if you didn't hear it clearly,
`please let me know and I'll either repeat the
`question or try and clarify. And unless you
`indicate otherwise, I'm going to assume that
`you've understood the questions that I've asked.
` Is that fair?
` A. Yes, that's fair.
` Q. And during the deposition, of course,
`let me know if you need to take a break at all.
`I'll be taking regular breaks myself, but if you
`need one, please let me know. The only
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`15
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`restriction there is that we can't take any breaks
`while the question is pending.
` A. Sure.
` Q. Does that sound okay?
` A. Yeah, that's just fine.
` Q. Is there any reason you can't give
`truthful and complete testimony today with respect
`to these two declarations?
` A. No, sir.
` Q. And where are you right now physically?
` A. I'm in Vancouver, British Columbia.
` Q. Okay. And are you at a private
`residence or --
` A. Yeah. I'm at a private residence, yes.
` Q. Okay. And are you alone there today?
` A. No, there's someone else in the place.
` Q. Okay. Are you in your home office, I'm
`guessing?
` A. Yeah, it's my home office.
` Q. Okay. And you're alone in your home
`office; correct?
` A. I'm alone in my home office, yes.
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`16
`
` Q. And can you just describe for me the
`equipment that you're using to participate in this
`remote deposition.
` A. The machine that I'm on right now is
`just a MacBook. And I'm using the camera on the
`MacBook itself. I have another monitor over here
`that's actually plugged in, but this is the only
`application, the Zoom application that's running.
`I don't have a browser or anything else running on
`the computer at this time.
` Q. Okay. And do you have any other
`equipment in the room through which you can
`communicate outside?
` A. No. I carried out the various devices.
`The only other computers I have in the room are an
`original 1984 Macintosh and a 1989 Macintosh SE/30
`that don't have network capability so -- and
`they're not turned on.
` Q. Okay. And can we agree that while we're
`on the record, that you won't have any off-record
`communication with anyone else?
` A. Yes, I agree.
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`17
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` Q. Do you have any other written material
`in the room pertaining to this case?
` A. No.
` Q. No notes or anything like that?
` A. No, sir.
` Q. No personal copies of the exhibits or
`the papers?
` A. No. Oh, I have one sticky note that is
`the UCE acronym. And I'll twist it up and throw
`it in the garbage. So nothing now.
` Q. And can we agree that when we're on the
`record, you won't review any material related to
`this case other than the exhibits that have been
`introduced in the course of the deposition?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Thank you.
` And just like with a regular deposition,
`the same rules apply with respect to communication
`with outside counsel. Can we agree that you won't
`have any substantive communication about the case
`with outside counsel during any breaks in the
`deposition testimony today?
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`18
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` A. I agree.
` Q. So did you prepare for the deposition
`today?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What did you do to prepare for the
`deposition?
` A. I reviewed a lot of materials, it looks
`like a lot of the ones that you included in the
`box, both yesterday and over a few days last week
`as well.
` Q. Okay. Did you review materials that we
`did not provide in the box as well?
` A. I don't know what exactly we have in the
`box, but I suspect it's about the same things.
` Q. Okay. And who did you meet with when
`you were preparing for the deposition?
` A. Yesterday I had a discussion with
`Mr. Lukas, who's present today, and Mr. Gilford.
` Q. Okay. And was that the only time you
`met with Mr. Lukas and Mr. Gilford?
` A. Yes. Recently, yes.
` Q. Roughly how long did you spend with
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`19
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`Mr. Lukas and Mr. Gilford in preparing for the
`deposition?
` A. Yesterday less than half a workday,
`maybe about half a workday.
` Q. Okay. And is that it with respect to
`meeting with those two?
` A. Yes.
` (Exhibit 1001, Previously Marked.)
`BY MR. WRIGHT:
` Q. So did you review the -- well, actually,
`let's just introduce right now the Exhibit 1001,
`which is the '853 patent. Just locate that.
` A. Okay. I've located it.
` Q. Great.
` Does that appear to be -- do you
`recognize Exhibit 1001?
` A. Yes, it looks like it's the entirety of
`the '853 patent, as we call it.
` Q. Okay. And does it look like
`Exhibit 1001 is a complete copy of the '853
`patent?
` A. Yes, it does.
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`Conducted on September 30, 2020
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`20
`
` MR. WRIGHT: I'll just state for the
`record that Exhibit 1 is United States Patent
`number 9,716,853.
`BY MR. WRIGHT:
` Q. And did you review that patent while you
`were preparing for the deposition today?
` A. Yes, I did.
` (Exhibit 1005, Previously Marked.)
`BY MR. WRIGHT:
` Q. And could you also locate Exhibit 1005.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And can we just confirm that
`Exhibit 1005 is United States Patent Application
`Publication number US2012/0249890 A1?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And is it okay with you if we
`refer to that as the -- as "Chardon" or "the
`Chardon reference" today?
` A. Sure.
` Q. Okay. And did you review the Chardon
`reference in preparing for the declaration -- or
`sorry -- the deposition today?
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` A. I did.
` (Exhibit 1006, Previously Marked.)
`BY MR. WRIGHT:
` Q. And could you locate Exhibit 1006.
` A. Okay. I've got it here.
` Q. Great.
` And can we similarly confirm that
`Exhibit 1006 is U.S. Patent Publication
`number 2009/0254500?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Great.
` And is it okay with you if we refer to
`that as "Stecyk" or "the Stecyk reference" today?
` A. That's fine with me. Thank you.
` (Exhibit 1010, Previously Marked.)
`BY MR. WRIGHT:
` Q. And I think finally can you locate
`Exhibit 1010.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And could you confirm for me that
`Exhibit 1010 is the High-Definition Multimedia
`Interface Specification Version 1.3a, dated
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`November 10th, 2006?
` A. It sure looks like it. It's a big
`document, but it looks like it. I agree with you.
` Q. Okay. And can we just refer to that
`today as "the HDMI specification"?
` A. Sure. That's fine.
` Q. And if we need to be more specific,
`we'll refer to the version number, but "the HDMI
`specification" should work, if that's okay with
`you.
` A. Yeah, that's fine.
` (Exhibit 2100, Previously Marked.)
`BY MR. WRIGHT:
` Q. I guess the last thing I want to make
`sure you have is a copy of your CV that was
`attached to Exhibit 2001. And I believe we also
`provided it as Exhibit 2100.
` A. Okay. I saw it at the back of
`Exhibit 2001, so I at least see it there.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Oh, I see it also as the separate
`exhibit.
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`Transcript of Don Turnbull, Ph.D.
`Conducted on September 30, 2020
`
`23
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` Q. Okay.
` A. Exhibit 200, like you said -- or 2100.
` Q. All right. Thank you.
` So in preparing for the deposition
`today, did you review Exhibits 1001, 1005, 1006
`and 1010 that we just introduced? Did you review
`each of those?
` A. At least a little bit, all of them, yes.
` Q. Okay. Did you also review Roku's
`petition when you were preparing for the
`deposition today?
` A. That sounds right, yes.
` Q. Okay. And can you confirm that you have
`a copy of Roku's petition?
` A. Let me see what number that is.
`Number 2?
` Q. I believe it's Paper 2.
` A. Okay. I have that here.
` Q. Okay. And do you also have there UEI's
`patent owner response? We provided a copy of that
`as well.
` A. Patent owner preliminary response?
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`Transcript of Don Turnbull, Ph.D.
`Conducted on September 30, 2020
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`24
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` Q. No. There should be a patent owner
`response as well.
` A. Okay. As I get these in order,
`hopefully this will go faster.
` Do you know what number that is?
` Q. I'm not sure what number it is.
` A. Okay. Let me keep going then.
` Q. Probably only one or two more documents.
` A. That's right. There's only so many in
`the pile here. Oh, I think it's number 20, patent
`owner's response.
` Q. Okay. Did you review that when you were
`preparing for the deposition today?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And because I think you just had it out,
`did you also review the patent owner's preliminary
`response when you were preparing for the
`deposition today?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Dr. Wilson -- sorry.
` Dr. Turnbull, I think there's one more
`paper. It's the board's institution decision.
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`Conducted on September 30, 2020
`
`25
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` Do you have that as well?
` A. I do. That's number 12.
` Q. And did you review the board's
`institution decision when you were preparing for
`the deposition today?
` A. Yes, I did.
` Q. All right. So let's start with
`Exhibit 2001, that would be your declaration
`prepared for the patent owner preliminary
`response.
` A. Okay. 2001. Okay.
` Q. So who -- did you make -- did you write
`the first draft of Exhibit 2001?
` A. I don't recall if it was based on a
`template of mine with style sheet and so forth or
`we started out with that supplied by counsel.
`Yeah, I don't recall how we began with this.
` Q. How many hours would you say you spent
`working on the declaration that's Exhibit 2001?
` A. More than a couple dozen, for sure,
`maybe exceeding that.
` Q. Did it go through a number of revisions?
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`Conducted on September 30, 2020
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`26
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` A. Yeah, I'm sure there were. There were
`many drafts where information was probably
`gradually added in, for one.
` Q. Could you pull out Exhibit 2002.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Do you recall who wrote the first draft
`of Exhibit 2002?
` A. No, I don't recall how we started this
`one, again, whether it was someone else's template
`or one of mine, and then started to fill in the
`various sections.
` Q. Do you recall how many hours you spent
`in total preparing Exhibit 2002?
` A. Maybe about the same amount of time,
`more than a couple dozen hours. It could be more
`than that.
` Q. Okay. So in Exhibit 2002, could you
`please go to paragraph 27.
` A. Okay. I'm with you.
` Q. Okay. So what is a POSITA in your view,
`the acronym?
` A. Oh. Person of ordinary skill in the
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`Conducted on September 30, 2020
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`27
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`art. Sometimes I say "POSITA," but I think we're
`on the same page.
` Q. Okay. And how does one determine the
`characteristics of a person of ordinary skill in
`the art?
` A. One part of that would be to just apply
`my skills and experience and think about, if
`someone were to try to build the software
`application, say, detailed in the '853 patent,
`what skills I feel would be necessary to be able
`to do that, to have an understanding of the domain
`and the software, you know, development skills and
`software design skills.
` Q. Okay. And then how else does one
`determine the characteristics of a person of
`ordinary skill in the art?
` MR. LUKAS: Objection; calls for a legal
`conclusion.
` THE WITNESS: I would think also to, you
`know, be aware of applications that might be
`similar in some ways and to think about the skills
`and educational background that would be required
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`Conducted on September 30, 2020
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`28
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`or might be required to do that.
` So one would be me thinking about, in my
`experience, how I would assign, say, a program or
`a group of people to do that, but the other would
`be if I had some knowledge of similar applications
`or similar platforms and then if I had an
`understanding of the type of people that I knew
`built that, and I would try to understand their
`backgrounds. And I guess I've seen both sides of
`that.
`BY MR. WRIGHT:
` Q. Okay. When -- in paragraph 27, when you
`talk about "the same field as the '853 patent,"
`how would you describe the field of the '853
`patent?
` A. Broadly, I would describe it as software
`design and software development.
` Q. You don't think it's limited to software
`design and software development in a particular
`space? That's -- what you gave me is a pretty
`broad category.
` A. Yeah, certainly. I said, "broadly."
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`Conducted on September 30, 2020
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`29
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`There could be a more narrow focus depending on
`the intended platform that you intend to run the
`application, or platforms that you need to run it
`on or would like to run it on. So there would be
`some skills that are more specific in software
`development and design related to that.
` There would also be -- it would be
`necessary or useful to have an understanding of
`the history of similar applications or similar --
`or applications that would run on the same
`platforms to know what are the best practices in
`terms of building, say, an iPhone app or something
`like that. It would help to understand that.
` And then just general problem-solving
`ability that you would learn through education or
`experience or both.
` Q. Okay. And in what particular space
`would you need to solve problems here, just the
`software space in general?
` A. I would think a general knowledge of
`software development and design would be the
`foundation. And then, again, depending on the
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`Conducted on September 30, 2020
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`30
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`platform or the operating system or the
`combination of those that you're seeking to build
`the software application, an understanding of that
`would make sense.
` If the software interacts with other
`devices, as the '853 patent is intended to do, an
`understanding of maybe the breadth of those
`devices at some level. And maybe even just a
`common understanding of how they might be used by
`people, your intended customers, would also be
`useful.
` Q. Is it important to understand the
`specific type of problem that the programmer is
`seeking to solve here in determining who a person
`of ordinary skill in the art might be?
` A. Certainly. I fit that under -- and
`maybe I should explain it more -- under the part
`of software design. In terms of thinking about
`how to design software, of course, you -- if
`you're going to do that well, you have to have
`some understanding of your potential customers or
`what typical users' environments are like, what
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`Conducted on September 30, 2020
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`31
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`their skills are like, how they interact with
`software applications.
` Q. And who are the potential customers in
`the space -- in the field of the '853 patent?
` MR. LUKAS: Objection; form.
` THE WITNESS: I didn't -- were you just
`trying -- trying to clarify or -- I didn't know
`what you meant there.
`BY MR. WRIGHT:
` Q. You said that if you're going -- you
`said that with respect to software design, you
`want to think about, in your words, your potential
`customers or what typical user environments are
`like.
` So I was asking, in the field of the
`'853 patent, who are the potential customers that
`you're talking about?
` A. Oh, okay. It could be vendors or end
`user consumers that would like to use the
`invention described in the '853.
` Q. What is the invention that's described
`in the '853 patent?
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`Conducted on September 30, 2020
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`32
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` A. Briefly, a universal control engine that
`enables remote control of a potential variety of
`devices.
` Q. So if you could turn to paragraph 29.
`And in particular the -- at the top -- bottom of
`page 7 and to the top of page 8.
` When you talk about the work experience
`of a person of ordinary skill in the art, you
`state that that person would have "at least one
`year of work experience in software programming,
`development, or design of consumer applications."
` Do you see that?
` A. I do. At the top of page 8, yes.
` Q. Right. And can you give me some
`examples of consumer applications that you're
`referring to there.
` A. I think that could include anything that
`would be something that a consumer could
`understand, that could meet a need of theirs. And
`it could be something you could purchase from an
`App Store or, in maybe different times, software
`stores, something that you could install and run
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`33
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`on your devices to add functionality to what you
`already have, an application.
` Q. So do you think that a person of
`ordinary skill in the art here would need any
`specific experience with universal control engines
`that enable remote control of a potential variety
`of devices?
` A. Not specifically, no.
` Q. So do you think it's important that a
`person of ordinary skill in the art understand the
`types of problems that are encountered by persons
`working in the field of the invention?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And what types of problems do
`persons of ordinary skill in the art typically
`face in the field of the invention for the '853
`patent?
` A. If I understand the question correctly,
`maybe there are two parts of that, not that
`they're completely divergent, but I would say
`software development, understanding how to build
`an application. We called it a consumer
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`Transcript of Don Turnbull, Ph.D.
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`34
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`application. Understanding what tool kits and
`libraries and
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