UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`________________________________________
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`________________________________________
`ROKU, INC.,
`Petitioner,
`v.
`UNIVERSAL ELECTRONICS, INC.
`Patent Owner.
`_________________________________________
`Case No. IPR2019-01614
`U.S. Patent 9,911,325
`
`Virtual Deposition of
`MICHAEL D. SPRENGER, Ph.D
`Wednesday, September 16, 2020
`10:28 a.m. MST
`
`Job No.: 320998
`Pages: 1 - 80
`Reported by: Elisabeth A. Miller Lorenz, RMR, CRR
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`Roku EX1035
`Roku v. Universal Electronics
`IPR2019-01612
`
`
`________________________________________
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`________________________________________
`ROKU, INC.,
`Petitioner,
`v.
`UNIVERSAL ELECTRONICS, INC.
`Patent Owner.
`_________________________________________
`Case No. IPR2019-01614
`U.S. Patent 9,911,325
`
`Virtual Deposition of
`MICHAEL D. SPRENGER, Ph.D
`Wednesday, September 16, 2020
`10:28 a.m. MST
`
`Job No.: 320998
`Pages: 1 - 80
`Reported by: Elisabeth A. Miller Lorenz, RMR, CRR
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`Transcript of Michael D. Sprenger, Ph.D.
`Conducted on September 16, 2020
`
`2
`
` Virtual deposition of MICHAEL D. SPRENGER,
`Ph.D., taken pursuant to notice, before Elisabeth
`A. Miller Lorenz, Registered Merit Reporter, Certified
`Realtime Reporter, and a Notary Public in and for the
`state of Tennessee.
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`Transcript of Michael D. Sprenger, Ph.D.
`Conducted on September 16, 2020
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`3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
` TIMOTHY L. TANG, ESQUIRE
` LESTIN KENTON, ESQUIRE
` Sterne Kessler
` 1100 New York Avenue, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005-3934
` 202.371.2600
` ttang@sternekessler.com
` lkenton@sternekessler.com
`
`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
` NICHOLAS T. TSUI, ESQUIRE
` THOMAS W. DAVISON, ESQUIRE
` BENJAMIN S. PLEUNE, ESQUIRE
` 1201 West Peachtree Street
` Suite 4900
` Atlanta, Georgia 30309
` 404.881.4962
` nick.tsui@alston.com
` ben.pleune@alston.com
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`Transcript of Michael D. Sprenger, Ph.D.
`Conducted on September 16, 2020
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`4
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` A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued)
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Jon Bortolini, Audiovisual Technician
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`Transcript of Michael D. Sprenger, Ph.D.
`Conducted on September 16, 2020
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`5
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` C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION OF MICHAEL D. SPRENGER, Ph.D. PAGE
` By Mr. Tang 6
`
` E X H I B I T S
`SPRENGER DEPOSITION EXHIBITS PAGE
` Exhibit 7 Declaration of Dr. Sprenger 8
` Exhibit 8 '325 Patent 9
` Exhibit 9 Russ Deposition Transcript 59
` Exhibit 10 2020-02-10 Sprenger Declaration 71
` Exhibit 11 2020-05-23 Paper 47 - Opinion 75
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`Transcript of Michael D. Sprenger, Ph.D.
`Conducted on September 16, 2020
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`6
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` THE STENOGRAPHER: Will counsel please
`stipulate that in lieu of formally swearing in the
`witness, the reporter will instead ask the witness
`to acknowledge that their testimony will be true
`under the penalties of perjury, that counsel will
`not object to the admissibility of the transcript
`based on proceeding in this way, and that the
`witness has verified that he is in fact Dr. Michael
`D. Sprenger?
` MR. TANG: We agree.
` MR. TSUI: Agreed.
` THE WITNESS: And I do verify that I am
`Michael Sprenger.
`Whereupon,
` MICHAEL D. SPRENGER, Ph.D.,
`called as a witness herein, having first
`acknowledged under penalty of perjury, was examined
`and testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PETITIONER
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q Dr. Sprenger, would you please pull out
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`Conducted on September 16, 2020
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`7
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`the '325 patent and your corresponding declaration?
` A Yes, I will. Just a moment, please.
` Q Sure.
` A Okay. I have these two documents.
` Q Before we introduce on the record, I'll
`just ask you the same questions I asked earlier this
`morning.
` So do you understand that you're here to
`provide testimony regarding the declaration that you
`submitted in relation to U.S. Patent No. 9,911,325?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q And, again, we talked about this this
`morning, but we went over a couple of guidelines and
`rules and procedures for remote deposition -- for
`remote depositions yesterday, right?
` A We did, yes.
` Q And you understand that those same
`guidelines that we set forth and agreed to yesterday
`will be equally applicable in this proceeding,
`right?
` A I understand that, yes.
` Q And so now we'll introduce your '325
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`8
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`declaration. We have this available.
` MR. TANG: That ought to be the EX2003
`ending with 614, if you can pull that up on the
`screen.
` (Marked Exhibit No. 7.)
` MR. TANG: And I see that we've marked
`this as Deposition Exhibit 7.
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q So, Dr. Sprenger, what you have here in
`front of you and on the screen is a document
`entitled Declaration of Dr. Michael D. Sprenger in
`Support of Patent Owner's Response to Petition for
`Inter Partes Review of U.S. Patent No. 9,911,325.
` Do you see that?
` A I see it, and I have the document -- the
`printed document here in front of me.
` Q And if you'd like to scroll to make sure
`this is a complete and accurate document
`representing your opinions.
` A Yes, I'm just going to flip through real
`quick to confirm. Yes, this appears to be complete.
` Q And are you aware of any errors or
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`9
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`corrections that need to be made to this document?
` A No, I'm not.
` MR. TANG: So we can pull that down, and
`then we can pull up the '325 patent, which has the
`EX1001, '325 patent.
` (Marked Exhibit No. 8.)
` MR. TANG: And I see this is marked
`Deposition Exhibit 8.
` THE WITNESS: Sorry, real quick if Jon
`could quickly scroll through his -- this is a
`shorter document, so it's probably feasible to go
`through this just to confirm that it's all complete.
` Thank you, Jon. Excellent. Thank you
`again, Jon.
` Yes, that's the same document I have here
`in front of me.
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q That sounds good. And if you would like
`to refer just to the paper document, you can pull
`this down. I'm going to be talking about Claim 1.
` A Let me quickly go to Claim 1. If you
`give me a moment, I would like to quickly read
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`10
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`Claim 1 to make sure I have the proper context.
` Q Sure.
` A Okay. Thank you. Go ahead, please.
` Q So do you see in the middle of Claim 1
`here, there's a step that says, Format key code for
`transmission to the second device? Do you see that?
` A Format the key code for transmission to
`the second device, I see that.
` Q What is your interpretation of what that
`term means?
` A Let me reread this again to make sure.
` Format the key code for transmission to
`second device means preparing it for transmission.
` Q What does the '325 patent describe as
`formatting?
` A When we say format, then we need to keep
`in mind that there is a fundamental difference
`between the key code itself and the key code signal,
`which is something we discussed yesterday as well.
`So the key code and the key code signal is not the
`same thing.
` There's additional information in the key
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`11
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`code signal to facilitate transmission from the
`transmitter to the receiver and also to provide
`information to ensure proper transmission of the
`signal itself and to enable the receiver to check
`whether the transmission has been successful.
` Q So does format refer to converting the
`key code into a key code signal?
` A Excuse me. I would not call it
`converting a key code into a key code signal.
`Perhaps we could call it that way. It's just that
`the key code is not the same as a key code signal.
`So when we say formatting, it means preparing it for
`transmission and adding this information that is
`needed to transmit the key code signal from a
`transmitter to a receiving device.
` Perhaps it makes sense if we look at the
`patent to look at some of these figures, and I'd be
`very glad to -- to go through this and explain some
`of these concepts.
` Q Please.
` A Would you like me to do this?
` Q Yes, please.
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`Conducted on September 16, 2020
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`12
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` A If we look at Figure No. 5 in the '325
`patent, if everyone can look at their copy and let
`me know once you're ready.
` Q I'm ready.
` A Thank you.
` Looking at Figure 5 in the '325 patent,
`we see what is being referred to in '325 as the key
`code signal. The key code signal is composed of a
`number of different components. And I'm just
`pointing these out as it shows in the figure.
`There's a start bit in the beginning. There is an
`area or a field or a component that is called system
`data. There's another area or field or component
`called key data. And there's a parity bit following
`that. And at the very end, we have what is referred
`to as a stop bit.
` Q I'm sorry, was that the -- the completion
`of your answer?
` A That's -- that's the explanation of my
`figure.
` So formatting -- let's go back to the
`particular claim to make sure I have the correct
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`Conducted on September 16, 2020
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`13
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`terms. So I'm reading again from that portion of
`Claim 1 that you referred to just a moment ago,
`Format the key code for transmission to the second
`device.
` So formatting the key code in this
`context means to provide that additional
`information, the start bit, and then compute what's
`called the parity bit, the value of the parity bit
`depends on the content of the message, and then
`provide the stop bit.
` Q And I think earlier you mentioned that
`format includes preparing the key code for
`transmission; is that right?
` A Yes, that's a fair statement.
` Q Can you describe what that preparation
`is?
` A It's basically what I just described now,
`so I'd be very glad to quickly recap that.
` So preparing a key code for transmission
`means preparing it to be able to be sent out as a
`key code signal. Remember, a key code and a key
`code signal is not the same thing. So that process
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`14
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`of formatting or preparing, as we may potentially
`call it, includes providing the start bit and then
`executing the parity bit, which depends on the
`content of the message, and ultimately provide the
`stop bit as well.
` Q Does formatting a key code include or
`exclude modulation?
` A I am not sure if I opined on this in my
`declaration. If you allow me to have a quick look
`to see whether or not I did. I don't recall at the
`moment. If you would just give me a minute to
`review my declaration.
` Q Sure.
` A Just a moment, please. I'm still
`looking.
` Q Sure.
` A I've almost got it. I appreciate
`everyone's patience.
` I am unable to find this. I thought I
`opined on that in my declaration, but it appears I
`did not. So in order to determine whether
`formatting -- the process of formatting includes the
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`15
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`process of modulation or not, I would have to study
`the material in some more detail before being able
`to form an opinion.
` Q And do you recall whether the '325 patent
`states that formatting ex- -- excludes modulation?
` MR. TSUI: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: At the moment, I don't
`recall. I would have to study or reread the '325
`patent in view of your specific questions and think
`about this before being able to form an opinion.
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q But you formed an opinion related to
`format the key code, right?
` MR. TSUI: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: I formed an opinion on
`Claim 1 with respect to -- with respect to the
`grounds -- Ground 1. Let me find that real quick
`here. Ground 1 refers to Rye and Skerlos, and I
`formed an opinion also on Claim 1 with respect to
`Ground 2, which is regarding combining Caris and
`Dubil.
` These are names of prior art. So Ground
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`16
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`2 is regarding Caris, it's C-A-R-I-S; and Dubil,
`D-U-B-I-L, if that helps.
` To the question, so I can refer to these
`particular sections in my declaration where I talk
`about in detail regarding these Grounds 1 and 2, but
`I apparently did not opine on the specific question
`that you just posed, which is whether or not
`formatting a signal -- formatting this information
`would include modulation or not.
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q But to analyze those references that you
`just described, you must have an interpretation to
`format the key code for transmission, right?
` MR. TSUI: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: I may. However, again, in
`view of your specific question, whether
`formatting -- whether that step includes the
`modulation step or whether modulation could be
`viewed as a separate step, it may ultimately just be
`a matter of implementation, whether you want to
`carry out these two things as a single step or
`whether they could be viewed as two separate steps.
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`17
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` It may simply be a matter of simple
`classification.
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q So looking at the next step there, it
`says, Transmit the formatted key code, right? Do
`you see that?
` A Let me read that real quick to make sure.
`Transmit the formatted key code to the second device
`in a key code signal via the use of a transmitter.
`I see that.
` Q And how does the '325 patent describe the
`key code signal?
` MR. TSUI: Object to form.
` MR. TANG: Sorry, I'll -- I'll reask the
`question because that might have been a little
`confusing.
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q How does the '325 patent describe
`generating a key code signal?
` A Let me quickly go back to my declaration
`because I have -- I have a section in here where I
`talk about the '325 patent. If you give me a
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`18
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`moment, I can find maybe a relevant passage.
` Q Sure.
` A Yes, if we look at my declaration,
`Paragraph 67, please. It's on Page 25 if you have
`that ready. And we do not need necessarily to look
`at the entire paragraph. But I'm writing here, and
`I'm just reading a short, relevant passage.
` The key code generator device that
`modulates that key code onto a carrier signal to
`generate a key code signal, which the key code
`generator device then transmits back to the remote
`control device.
` Q And so -- sorry, the screen is kind of
`blocking my screen a little bit.
` Looking back at the claim, it says,
`Transmit the formatted key code, right?
` A Yes, that's what it says here in the
`patent.
` Q So that includes transmitting the
`modulated key code using the key code signal, right?
` MR. TSUI: Object to form.
` MR. TANG: I'll ask it again.
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`BY MR. TANG:
` Q So transmitting the formatted key code
`includes modulating that to transmit the key code
`signal; is that right?
` MR. TSUI: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: Modulating the -- okay.
`There was a brief audio dropout, and I just want to
`be sure. If I may respectfully ask you to repeat
`that question one more time.
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q Sure.
` All right. The question was,
`transmitting the formatted key code into -- I'm
`sorry, I was reading the question back, but I'll ask
`it again.
` Transmitting the formatted key code using
`the key code signal includes transmitting the
`modulated key code, right?
` MR. TSUI: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: I don't think we referred
`to this as the modulated key code; we only called it
`the key code signal.
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`BY MR. TANG:
` Q But I think the passage you read to me
`said that the key code signal is generated via
`modulation, right?
` MR. TSUI: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: Oh, I see. Thank you. I
`think I might have misunderstood. Yeah, so let me
`just quickly reread that sentence just to be clear.
` So I wrote here in my declaration in
`Paragraph 67 -- this is approximately the middle of
`the paragraph -- The key code generator device that
`modulates that key code onto a carrier signal to
`generate a key code signal, which the key code
`generator device then transmits back to the remote
`control device.
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q So that key code signal that you describe
`in that paragraph is the same key code signal that's
`being transmitted in the claim, right?
` MR. TSUI: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: This is the same key code
`signal, because the key code generator device then
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`21
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`transmits that back to the remote control device.
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q All right. I would like to now go to
`Paragraph 195 of your declaration. If you would
`like to review that, I believe it's going to be the
`whole section. It's 195 through 200.
` A Let me find that and have a quick look.
`If you give me a moment, I would like to, as you
`suggest, review this entire section to make sure I
`understand the context.
` Q Sure.
` A Thank you.
` Thank you, everyone, for your patience.
` So I have reread 195 through 200 as you
`requested. Go ahead, I'm ready to answer any
`questions you may have.
` Q I'd first like to jump to Paragraph 197
`in that section.
` A Okay. I'm looking at 197 just to make
`sure. Yes, go ahead, please.
` Q Specifically, I'm going to ask about this
`first sentence, which I'll -- I'll read. It says,
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`Transcript of Michael D. Sprenger, Ph.D.
`Conducted on September 16, 2020
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`22
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`The petition states only that a POSA would have
`understood that these binary signals in Rye would
`include a binary number representing a digital 1 and
`digital 0, which incorrectly equates binary numbers
`with digital 1s and digital 0s.
` Do you see that?
` A I see that, yes.
` Q Are you saying that there's a difference
`between a binary number and a digital 1 and
`digital 0?
` A So in the context of Patent '325 -- let's
`see if I have this here.
` In the context of '325, the terms
`digital 0 and digital 1 have some very specific
`meanings. If you go to the patent and look at
`Figure 6A and 6B, this might help in explaining the
`concept.
` Q I'm looking at the figures.
` A Oh, you're looking at it? Okay. Thank
`you.
` So let's -- let's look at Figure 6A for
`the time being. On the left side, there is a
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`Conducted on September 16, 2020
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`23
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`sequence of pulses. We can call them comb or
`needle-shaped pulses. And there is -- there are two
`things or two metrics indicated. One is called a
`mark length, and one is called a space length, if
`you can see that on the figure.
` Q I do.
` A The mark length has a specific length
`indicated in the figure, and the space length has a
`different specific length of duration indicated in
`the figure.
` This whole sequence or combination of a
`mark length or space length in this particular
`example is referred to in the context of the '325
`patent as a digital 0.
` On the right side of the figure are,
`again, two components known as -- or marked as mark
`length and a space length. These are different.
`They have different lengths from the one we just
`looked at. And this combination of a specific mark
`length and space length, in this particular case in
`this particular example in the context of the '325
`patent, is referred to as a digital 1.
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`Conducted on September 16, 2020
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`24
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` Q Is that the completion of your answer?
` A That's my answer to the question of what
`the digital 1 and the digital 0 means. I want to
`stress the fact that these have a specific meaning
`in the context of the '325 patent.
` Q So on this same page, we have a Figure 3,
`which depicts a binary number.
` Do you see that?
` A Figure 3, yes, that's the key code that
`we also discussed yesterday.
` Q Do you see the binary number depicted
`there?
` A Yes, I see the binary number depicted
`across the top.
` Q Does that binary number comprise
`digital 1s and digital 0s?
` A This binary number comprises logical 0s
`and 1s or binary 0s and 1s. Again, in the context
`of '325, the term digital 0 and digital 1 have a
`very specific meaning, which is shown in Figures 6A
`and also in Figure 6B, although Figure 6B only shows
`a digital 0; it does not show a digital 1.
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`25
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` Q So are you saying that a digital 0 and
`digital 1 refers to a characteristic of a signal?
` A In the context of the '325 patent and
`also the other patents, the '389 and '642 patent,
`these terms digital 0 and digital 1 have a very
`specific meaning. And it's shown here as exemplary
`a specific mark length and space length representing
`or -- the composition of these two meaning the term
`digital 1, and then the other mark lengths and space
`lengths refer to a digital 1.
` Q But what we're pointing to is the signal,
`right?
` MR. TSUI: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: I'm afraid I don't quite
`understand your question. If you might be able to
`rephrase that --
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q Sure.
` A -- that would be helpful.
` Q Sure.
` So my question was, are digital 1s and
`digital 0s as described by these patents, are they
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`characteristics of a signal?
` A Digital 1s and digital 0s, as described
`in the context of these patents, again, have a very
`specific meaning, and they -- they ultimately form a
`key code signal.
` Q So I think I heard you say that the '325
`patent uses the phrase digital 1 and digital 0 in a
`unique way; is that right?
` MR. TSUI: Object to the form,
`mischaracterizes testimony.
` THE WITNESS: I don't think I said unique
`way; I said specific way.
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q When you say specific way, does that mean
`a nonconventional way?
` A I would not call it nonconventional. I
`would just call it specific to the context or to the
`universe of this group of three patents, the '325,
`the '389, and the '642.
` Q But I think conventionally when I think
`of a binary number, I think it comprises digital 1s
`and digital 0s.
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` Is that wrong?
` MR. TSUI: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: The term digital 1 and
`digital 0 may have different meanings outside of the
`context of these patents. It's entirely possible
`that somebody refers to digital 0s and 1s in a
`specific way.
` Again, in the context of the '325 patent,
`the term digital 0 and digital 1 have a very
`specific meaning, and it's depicted here -- or
`illustrated in Figures 6A and 6B.
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q I'm going to draw you to Paragraph 200 of
`your declaration.
` A Paragraph 200, yes, I'm looking at that.
` Q And specifically, I want to ask about
`this first sentence here which says, Indeed, there
`are numerous reasons why a person of ordinary skill
`in the art would not want to use a digital 1 and a
`digital 0.
` Do you see that?
` A Indeed, there are numerous reasons why a
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`POSITA would not want to use a digital 0 and --
`sorry, let me reread that.
` Indeed, there are numerous reasons why a
`POSITA would not want to use a digital 1 and a
`digital 0. I see that.
` Q And what did you mean by that sentence?
` A What I mean here is that a person of
`ordinary skill in the art has a clear understanding
`that there are many options of sending bit patterns
`over a communication channel. It does not
`necessarily require to use a specific signal or
`waveform as in '325, what '325 refers to as a
`digital 0 or digital 1.
` What I mean with this is that there are
`other ways to transmit bit patterns over a
`communication channel.
` Q But the '325 patent uses this technique,
`right?
` MR. TSUI: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: The '325 patent uses
`digital 0s and digital 1s and clearly defines the
`specific meaning of the terms digital 0 and
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`29
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`digital 1.
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q So I'm still a little confused. It
`sounds like when you use the phrase digital 1 and
`digital 0, it's characteristic of the signal itself.
` Is that wrong?
` MR. TSUI: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: When you say, is it wrong,
`I don't understand what you mean.
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q I guess is my understanding wrong?
` A Oh.
` Q Is -- is the term digital 1 and digital 0
`referring to a signal characteristic?
` A The terms digital 0 and digital 1 as used
`in the '325 patent have specific characteristics as
`is shown, for example, here in Figure 6A and 6B.
`They have certain timing information attached to
`that, and we talked about timing information in some
`detail yesterday.
` When I say timing information in this
`particular context, I'm thinking of the mark length
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`and the space length, which are shown in Figure A,
`for example, 6A. And it's -- also has other timing
`information, such as the on time and the off time of
`the intermediary signal, or specifically these are
`shown in Figure 6B.
` Q So I'd like to go back to the claim, if
`you have that available, Claim 1 of the '325.
` A Claim 1. Let me set aside my
`declaration. Claim 1.
` I'm looking at Claim 1.
` Q So I'm interested in about the last three
`lines of this claim on the page, and I'll read. It
`says, Wherein each of the plurality of key code data
`stored in the codeset comprises a series of
`digital 1s and/or digital 0s.
` A Yeah.
` Q Do you see that?
` A Sorry, it was on the next page. I was
`looking in the wrong place.
` Q Got you.
` So this is the -- this would be the end
`of Column 10, Lines 65 through 67.
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`Conducted on September 16, 2020
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` A Oh, I see. Thank you. Thank you for
`clarifying that. Let me make sure I look at the
`correct text passage here. To be clear, I'd like to
`read this back to you to make sure we are talking
`about the same thing.
` Q Sure.
` A So Column 10, Line 65, picking up here
`after the comma, Wherein each of the plurality of
`key code data stored in the codeset comprises a
`series of digital 1s and/or digital 0s and wherein
`the codeset further comprises time information that
`describes how a digital 1 and/or a digital 0 within
`the selected one of the plurality of key code data
`is to be represented in the key code signal to be
`transmitted to the second device.
` Q So we're on the same page with what we're
`looking at.
` A Yes. Thank you.
` Q Sure.
` So kind of going back to the bottom of
`Column 10 here, it says that the key code data
`comprises a series of digital 1s and/or digital 0s.
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`Conducted on September 16, 2020
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` Do you see that?
` A Yes, I see that.
` Q And this key code data, what we described
`this as being is a binary number, right?
` MR. TSUI: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: So if we look at Figure 3
`of the '325 patent, it illustrates a key code. A
`key code is -- consists in this particular example
`of a system code and what is called the key data.
`BY MR. TANG:
` Q And that's a binary number, right?
` A And the system code and the key data in
`this particular example are represented by binary
`numbers.
` Q So looking at the claim then, it says,
`Key code data comprises a series of digital 1s
`and/or digital 0s, right?
` A I'm looking at the words on the '325
`printout. Yes, I see what you mean.
` Q So that means that the binary number
`comprises a digital -- a series of digital 1s and/or
`digital 0s, right?
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`33
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` MR. TSUI: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: The concept here is
`somewhat different. It's important to keep in mind
`the construction. So if you go back to the -- my
`declaration -- and I should have the term
`construction in here s
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