UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - x
`ADVANCED MICRO DEVICES,
`:
`INC.,
`:
`: Case IPR2019-01526
`:
`: Patent 6,895,519
`:
`:
`Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - X
`
`v.
`AQUILA INNOVATIONS,
`INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`Deposition of STEVEN A. PRZYBYLSKI
`Conducted Virtually
`Friday, August 14, 2020
`10:03 a.m. EDT
`
`Job No.: 313891
`Pages 1 - 172
`Reported by: Debra A. Whitehead
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`AMD EX1029
`AMD v. Aquila
`IPR2019-01526
`
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - x
`ADVANCED MICRO DEVICES,
`:
`INC.,
`:
`: Case IPR2019-01526
`:
`: Patent 6,895,519
`:
`:
`Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - X
`
`v.
`AQUILA INNOVATIONS,
`INC.,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`Deposition of STEVEN A. PRZYBYLSKI
`Conducted Virtually
`Friday, August 14, 2020
`10:03 a.m. EDT
`
`Job No.: 313891
`Pages 1 - 172
`Reported by: Debra A. Whitehead
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`AMD EX1029
`AMD v. Aquila
`IPR2019-01526
`
`
`
`Transcript of Steven A. Przybylski
`Conducted on August 14, 2020
`
`2
`
`Deposition of STEVEN A. PRZYBYLSKI, conducted
`virtually.
`
`Pursuant to notice, before Debra Ann Whitehead,
`E-Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of
`Virginia.
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`Transcript of Steven A. Przybylski
`Conducted on August 14, 2020
`
`3
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
` ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
` DANIEL S. BLOCK, ESQUIRE
` LAUREN C. SCHLEH, ESQUIRE
` STERNE, KESSLER, GOLDSTEIN & FOX P.L.L.C.
` 1100 New York Avenue, NW
` Suite 600
` Washington, DC 20005
` (202) 371-2000
`
`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
` GENE CHERNG, ESQUIRE
` FREITAS & WEINBERG LLP
` 350 Marine Parkway
` Suite 200
` Redwood Shores, California 94065
` (650) 593-6300
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` NATHANIEL RIVENESS, A/V Technician
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`Transcript of Steven A. Przybylski
`Conducted on August 14, 2020
`
`C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION OF STEVEN A. PRZYBYLSKI
`By Mr. Block
`
`4
`
`PAGE
`5
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`EXHIBITS MARKED IN PRIOR SESSIONS
`(Not attached)
`PAGE
`AQUILA DEPOSITION EXHIBIT
`Exhibit 2005
`Declaration of Steven Przybylski 11
`
`AMD DEPOSITION EXHIBIT
`Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent 6,895,519
`Exhibit 1004 U.S. Patent 6,635,802 B1, by
`Robert Ober
`Exhibit 1005 Microsoft Hardware White Paper 37
`Exhibit 1006 Doblar Reference
`39
`Exhibit 1007 Cooper Reference
`40
`Exhibit 1020 Archived Web Page
`164
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`Transcript of Steven A. Przybylski
`Conducted on August 14, 2020
`
`5
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` STEVEN A. PRZYBYLSKI,
` having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PETITIONER
`BY MR. BLOCK:
` Q Good morning. Can you please state your
`name, for the record.
` A Steven A. Przybylski.
` MR. BLOCK: Just so counsel can introduce
`themselves, this is Dan Block from the law firm of
`Sterne, Kessler, Goldstein & Fox, on behalf of
`Petitioner AMD. With me today is Lauren Schleh,
`also of the law firm Sterne, Kessler, Goldstein &
`Fox.
` MR. CHERNG: This is Gene Cherng from the
`law firm Freitas & Weinberg, on behalf of Patent
`Owner Aquila Innovations.
` Q Good morning, Dr. Przybylski.
` Have you ever had your deposition taken
`before?
` A Yes.
` Q About how many times?
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`Conducted on August 14, 2020
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`6
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` A Ten to -- 15 to 20 probably. Somewhere
`around 15.
` Q Well, it sounds like you're a pro at it,
`pro at this. But just so we're all on the same
`page, I'm just going to go over a couple of quick
`ground rules that will make today's process go as
`smooth as possible. Sound good?
` A Absolutely.
` Q Okay. So Debbie is a court reporter, and
`she is going to be, you know, writing down
`everything you say. And so what would be helpful
`is if you give your answers verbally.
` Do you understand that?
` A Yes.
` Q And along the same lines, if you would
`wait for me to finish my question before you
`answer, and then likewise what I will do is wait
`for you to finish your answer before I ask my next
`question, that will also make the record be more
`clear and allow for Debbie to get down everything
`we're saying.
` Does that sound good?
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`Transcript of Steven A. Przybylski
`Conducted on August 14, 2020
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`7
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` A Yes, it does.
` Q My job today is to ask you questions.
`Your job is to answer my questions to the best you
`can. If you do answer one of my questions, I'm
`going to assume you understood it. Will you let
`me know if you don't understand a question?
` A Of course.
` Q You understand that you're here
`testifying under oath?
` A Yes.
` Q And that means you need to give true and
`complete answers to the best of your ability?
` A Yes.
` Q Is there any reason you can't do that
`today?
` A No.
` Q Okay. What did you do to prepare for
`today's deposition?
` A I reviewed my declaration. I reviewed
`some of the references that have been made
`exhibits in this matter. And, yeah, I don't think
`I did anything other than review documents that
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`Transcript of Steven A. Przybylski
`Conducted on August 14, 2020
`
`8
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`are cited exhibits.
` Q When you say you reviewed some of the
`documents that were cited in this proceeding, do
`you recall which documents you reviewed?
` A Principally the Ober reference; the
`Nakazato reference; Albonesi's declaration,
`portions of his transcript, portions of the
`petition.
` Q When you say "portions of the petition,"
`was there a particular reason why you only
`reviewed portions as opposed to all of the
`petition?
` A I was focusing on my declaration. That
`is what I'm here to testify about. And to the
`extent I needed to review portions of the
`declaration -- of the petition in order to
`understand what I said or why I said what I said
`in my declaration, I reviewed those portions.
`Principally I was focusing on Albonesi's
`declaration over the petition.
` Q Understood. As part of your
`preparations, did you meet with anybody else?
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`Transcript of Steven A. Przybylski
`Conducted on August 14, 2020
`
`9
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` A I had conversations with Gene Cherng.
` Q You mentioned conversations. Did you
`meet with Mr. Cherng on more than one occasion?
` A We had telephone conversations. We did
`not meet physically, obviously. Nor did we have
`video conferences.
` Q About how many times did you meet
`telephonically?
` A For this preparation telephonically I
`would think twice, maybe a third time. Yeah,
`three times. That's right. There was one
`conversation at the beginning of the preparation.
` Q Do you recall when you first began
`preparing for this deposition, when that was?
` A Approximately a week ago, slightly more
`than a week ago.
` Q So between around a week ago and today,
`you had two or three conversations with Mr. Cherng
`to prepare for today's deposition?
` A That's correct.
` Q In total, how long would you say the two
`of you prepared for this deposition?
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`Conducted on August 14, 2020
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`10
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` A I mean, are you asking the duration of
`our telephonic conversations?
` Q Just generally speaking. Are we talking
`multiple hours, are we talking, you know, in total
`less than an hour? I just want to have an
`approximate time.
` A So the three conversations, one was short
`so, you know, ten minutes or so, maybe a little
`bit more. Two of them were longer, between half
`an hour and an hour each.
` Q But none of the conversations were much
`longer than an hour?
` A Certainly not, no. Not to my
`recollection.
` Q Okay. Overall, how long would you say
`you spent preparing for today's deposition?
` A Spread over that week, probably about 20
`to 30 hours, something like that.
` Q So most of the remaining time would have
`been spent reviewing the materials?
` A By myself, yes.
` Q What I would like to do is, if we could
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`Transcript of Steven A. Przybylski
`Conducted on August 14, 2020
`
`11
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`open up your declaration, which I think is Exhibit
`2005.
` (Aquila Exhibit 2005, previously marked,
`not attached.)
` A So you want me to open it on my computer?
` Q Yes.
` A And just so you understand, I also do
`have a hard copy of my declaration, a clean copy,
`no marks on it.
` Q Okay. Yeah. So you have no notes in the
`hard copy?
` A No.
` Q Okay. So then whatever you feel
`comfortable with. If you would rather refer to
`the hard copy, you can do that as well.
` It works for me.
` A I will tell you which I'm looking at, if
`you care. Otherwise --
` Q Yeah, I don't really care. As long as
`you don't have notes on it, you can look at
`whichever one, that's fine.
` A All right.
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`Transcript of Steven A. Przybylski
`Conducted on August 14, 2020
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`12
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` Q If you could turn to Paragraph 6.
` A I am there.
` Q Okay. And here in Paragraph 6 you set
`forth the materials you reviewed in forming your
`opinions in this case.
` Is that right?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q Okay. And besides the declaration of
`Dr. Albonesi, the IPR petition, and the references
`and prior art cited within the petition itself, as
`well as anything that's cited in your declaration,
`were there any other materials that you relied
`upon in forming your opinions in this case?
` A I think Paragraph 6 summarizes my
`activities prior to filing the declaration.
` Q Right. That wasn't my question, though.
`I just want to confirm that you didn't look at any
`other materials besides the materials that are
`mentioned in Paragraph 6 in preparing -- in
`forming your opinions in this case.
` A Only if -- if I relied on any additional
`materials, they were cited as exhibits.
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`Conducted on August 14, 2020
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`13
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` So I may have looked at some things but
`not relied on them.
` Q Understood. And that would have been in
`preparing your declaration. Correct?
` A That's what Paragraph 6 is about, yes.
` Q Do you agree that the '519 patent is
`about power management in an integrated circuit
`that at least contains the CPU core?
` MR. CHERNG: Object to form.
` A So I have brought up the '519, since you
`referred to it.
` Q Sorry, before you answer the question,
`just because you're talking -- looking at the '519
`patent, just to confirm, you're looking at Exhibit
`1001. Right?
` A That is correct, yes.
` (AMD Exhibit 1001, previously marked, not
`attached.)
` Q Okay. And why don't I just ask my
`question again, and then we'll go from there.
` A Please.
` Q Do you agree that the '519 patent is
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`Transcript of Steven A. Przybylski
`Conducted on August 14, 2020
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`14
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`about power management in an integrated circuit
`that at least contains a CPU core?
` MR. CHERNG: Objection.
` A Yes, the -- that is ostensibly what it
`says within the first two paragraphs of the '519
`specification.
` Q Now, have you heard of a term called
`"LSI"?
` A Yes.
` Q What is LSI?
` A LSI is an acronym for large scale
`integration.
` Q What does large scale integration mean?
` A The -- the meaning of the term "LSI" has
`changed over the course of history.
` It's -- originally meant a degree of
`integration on a single integrated circuit that
`was more than MSI, or medium scale integration,
`and VLSI, very large scale integration. So it was
`something on the order of a thousand to a couple
`of thousand transistors.
` Today, and certainly at the time of the
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`Transcript of Steven A. Przybylski
`Conducted on August 14, 2020
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`15
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`filing of the '519, LSI was a more generic term
`referring to integrated circuits generally.
` Q So at the time of the '519 patent, it's
`your opinion that LSI means integrated circuits
`generally?
` A Certainly in the term "system LSI," which
`is more properly considered a compound noun rather
`than an LSI that is a system, it's -- the term
`refers to an integrated circuit.
` Q So I just want to make sure I understood
`that. The system LSI means something different to
`you than the LSI at the time of the '519 patent?
` A Not substantially. I think the term
`"system LSI" has a degree of connotation that is
`more precise than recrafting system LSI as an LSI
`that is a system.
` Q Okay. I'm still having trouble
`understanding what you're saying there. Maybe
`this will help: Is LSI a broader term at the time
`of the '519 patent than system LSI?
` A Yes, that's certainly the case.
` Q So system LSI to some extent is a
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`Conducted on August 14, 2020
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`16
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`particular type of LSI?
` A Yes. You can't have a system LSI that's
`not also referred to as an LSI by practitioners of
`the art.
` Q So what does the "system" word as part of
`system LSI denote?
` A It's not a well-defined term, so it's
`difficult to give it a very precise definition
`without serious thought. And that's not something
`I've specifically opined on in my declaration.
` But to answer your question as best I'm
`able, the term "system LSI" refers to an LSI with
`a variety of different subcomponents.
` Q So would it be fair to say that a system
`LSI isn't any kind of integrated circuit, but
`particular types of integrated circuits that have
`subsystems on them?
` MR. CHERNG: Objection.
` A Again, without -- without proper
`consideration and off the top of my head I would
`say that's a fairly reasonable statement, yes.
` Q Is LSI or system LSI relevant to the '519
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`Conducted on August 14, 2020
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`17
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`patent in any way?
` A It's certainly relevant in that it -- the
`disclosure is couched in terms of system LSIs.
`And it claims systems LSI -- system LSIs. So to
`that extent, certainly, yes, it is a term that's
`very relevant to the patent.
` Q Must a system LSI to be considered a
`system LSI include memory?
` MR. CHERNG: Objection. Outside the
`scope.
` A Certainly many do, but I don't know
`whether a person of ordinary skill would require
`that or not in terms of understanding what is and
`what is not a system LSI.
` It's not a question I considered.
` Q In terms of your analysis of the '519
`patent and the opinions that you've set forth in
`this case, does it matter in terms of your opinion
`whether an LSI includes memory or not?
` A Certainly since the claims at issue that
`I focused on include elements that are memories,
`the system LSIs that would read on that claim,
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`18
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`Claim 1 in particular and its dependants, would
`have to have memories.
` So, for example, the very first proper
`element of the Claim 1 is a first memory. And
`that is something that the system LSI comprises.
`So it's -- in order to be relevant to this claim
`and this patent, an LSI would have to be a system
`LSI that include -- included a first memory.
` Q Do you consider the fact that a system
`LSI must include memory an important part of the
`'519 patent?
` MR. CHERNG: Object to form. Outside the
`scope.
` A Since it is recited in the claims, and
`the claims at issue, that makes it an important
`part of the patent, yes.
` Q But the '519 patent is primarily about
`power management. Right?
` It's not about memory technology. Right?
` MR. CHERNG: Object to form.
` A The '519 patent is about power
`management, and -- in many aspects of it. And so
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`19
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`that there is -- there are memories recited in the
`claims that hold software specifically is in fact
`an important idea within the '519 patent.
` So it's very relevant to the
`power-management solutions presented in the '519.
` Q Does the '519 patent require any
`particular types of memory, like DRAM or EPROM or
`anything like that?
` A The claims do not require a particular
`type of memory. The Claim 1 only recites
`memories.
` Q Let's turn to Paragraph 12.
` A Of what?
` Q Of your declaration.
` A Thank you. I am there.
` Q So I'm trying to understand the
`experience you've set forth here and how that's
`relevant to the -- to the '519 patent, which is,
`as we talked about earlier, about power management
`in an integrated circuit that at least contains a
`CPU core.
` And so you start off by saying that you
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`Conducted on August 14, 2020
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`20
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`have extensive experience with memory
`semiconductor circuits and memory systems.
` Do you see that?
` A I do.
` Q So how is that experience relevant to the
`'519 patent?
` A Certainly the -- to the extent that the
`systems that I am aware of, have designed, and
`continue to follow in my consulting career, are
`power sensitive. The techniques that are used in
`the industry to manage power, specifically in the
`last couple of decades, are central to this notion
`that -- to the basic subject matter of the '519.
` Q After reading Paragraph 12, I don't see
`anything in there about any experience you've had
`with power management. It just talks about
`designing memory. Right?
` A The -- to the extent that in the time
`frame for Paragraph 12, which was in the earlier
`portion of my career, power management had a
`different connotation; which was, noting how much
`power was going to be consumed by a design, where
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`Conducted on August 14, 2020
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`21
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`that power was being consumed, making sure that
`the power density was uniform and not going to
`pose a problem with regard to the -- the normal
`and reliable operation of the system.
` To the extent that those concepts became
`central to the more active power-management
`systems that followed beginning in the 1990s, that
`my background in -- as developed in the portion of
`my career that -- articulated in Paragraph 12,
`laid the framework for understanding and analyzing
`those subsequent dynamic power-management
`techniques.
` Q But you didn't work on any of those
`subsequent dynamic power-management techniques.
` Right?
` A What do you mean by "work on"?
` Q Well, I'm trying to --
` MR. CHERNG: Objection.
` Q I'm trying to sort of unpack your answer.
`Right? And I think what you told me -- and I
`don't want to mischaracterize it so you tell me if
`I got it wrong, right -- was that you worked on
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`Transcript of Steven A. Przybylski
`Conducted on August 14, 2020
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`22
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`these memory systems, and that was somehow
`relevant to later work in other systems that you
`did not work on. Right?
` A Let's see. So in my subsequent
`consulting career, past the portion described in
`Paragraph 12, I did work on memory systems and
`systems generally where dynamic power management
`was in play.
` And so I needed to be aware of and
`participate in the design of those dynamic
`power-management techniques. Not --
` Q So --
` A -- specifically in the portion of my
`career highlighted in Paragraph 12.
` Q I see. And so have you designed dynamic
`power-management techniques?
` A I have worked on systems that include
`power management systems techniques, not
`necessarily actively contributed to those aspects
`of the design.
` Q I see. So you've used systems that have
`power-management techniques, but you haven't
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`yourself designed power-management techniques.
` Right?
` A Not --
` MR. CHERNG: Object to form.
` A "Used" is not the right term there.
`Used. Right now, the computer I am using right
`now has dynamic power. That's a degree of
`involvement with dynamic power management that
`does not accurately describe the later portions of
`my consulting career.
` So if you would rephrase that question I
`would be better able to answer.
` Q Okay. You've worked on systems that have
`power management -- strike that. Let me try that
`again, because I think I understand what your
`point is.
` You've developed other aspects of systems
`that have power-management systems on them, but
`you, yourself, haven't developed power-management
`systems. Fair?
` A Yes. In -- in role as systems architect
`or memory systems architect or memory designer
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`in -- for different clients at different times,
`the systems that those -- that I worked on in
`whole or in part included dynamic power
`management.
` Q And if we turn to Paragraph 13, you
`mention a 850-page book that you wrote.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Does that book have anything to do with
`power management?
` A Yes.
` Q In what ways?
` A In particular, as we were moving through
`the 1990s, the memory consumption -- I'm sorry,
`the power consumption of DRAMs and memories
`generally was becoming an issue.
` And so of the many DRAM technologies that
`I evaluated, several of them began to introduce
`low power modes that were central to their
`novelty. And I analyzed those techniques.
` Q Would you say that book is relevant to
`the '519 patent?
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` MR. CHERNG: Object to form. Outside the
`scope.
` A It's -- it predates the '519 and is on
`ancillary topics. So "relevance" is a broad term.
` If it is relevant, it's not centrally
`relevant.
` Q I think that was my question. So I think
`you answered it, but let me just make sure. You
`mentioned it's on an auxiliary topic. Right? So
`would that mean your DRAM book wasn't centrally
`pertinent to the '519 patent. Fair?
` A Certainly the '519 patent mentions SDRAMs
`and EDO RAMs, and the like. All of those are
`described and analyzed in detail in my book. So I
`don't talk about dynamic power-management
`techniques precisely, but I do analyze
`technologies that are referred to and are
`important to the specification of the '519, even
`though those terms don't show up in the claims.
` Q Let's turn to Paragraph 14.
` You mention that in 1997 you became a
`registered patent agent.
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` Is that right?
` A Yes, I say that.
` Q Are you still a registered patent agent?
` A I believe so. I have no reason to
`believe I am not. I have not had any interactions
`with the PTO in -- in that -- you know, a long
`time.
` Q In your capacity as a registered patent
`agent, when was the last time you would say you
`had interaction with the PTO or were working in
`your capacity as a registered patent agent?
` A I have never filed a paper with my
`registration number on it. That's not part of my
`consulting practice.
` I have worked on prosecution of patents,
`but not as the attorney of record in any matter.
` Q So I'm just curious, then, why did you
`decide to become a registered patent agent?
` A I decided to take the course to become a
`patent agent in order to better -- to be a better
`expert, because I was starting to do that more
`regularly in the late 1990s. The credential helps
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`signal to attorneys that I know what I'm doing.
` And after I took the course, I went ahead
`and took the exam. So I have the credential to
`back up my, you know, experience in terms of
`understanding the patent law to the level that an
`agent does, and to understand the construction and
`deconstruction of claims.
` Q So is it fair to say then you understand
`patent law to the level that a patent -- at least
`you expect a patent agent to understand patent
`law?
` A I think that's a fair statement.
` Q Okay. Let's turn to Paragraph 15. I'm
`trying to understand, then, in view of what you
`just told me, how to interpret that first sentence
`in Paragraph 15.
` You say there that you won't offer
`opinions because -- on the law because you are not
`an attorney. Right?
` A Those are my words.
` Q Right. Do you understand, though, that
`this proceeding is before the patent office?
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` Right?
` A Yes.
` Q And that means that as a patent agent,
`you can offer opinions on the law. Right?
` A But I do not.
` Q So, but you understand you are able to
`offer opinions on the law. Right?
` MR. CHERNG: Objection. Outside the
`scope.
` A I think that there's two halves of that
`question implicitly.
` One is I'm allowed to offer opinions on
`the law, and I am able to offer opinions on the
`law.
` Certainly as an agent, I am allowed to.
`Whether I feel comfortable doing so is an entirely
`separate question.
` Q So is it fair to say you don't feel
`comfortable offering opinions on the law then?
` A My role in this matter, and all of my
`engagements as an expert, focus on the technology.
`And so although I can have discussions informed by
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`my training as an agent and my years of experience
`as a testifying/nontestifying expert with counsel,
`I do not offer opinions as a matter of practice on
`the law.
` Q Right. That wasn't my question, though.
`I asked you, is it fair to say you don't feel
`comfortable offering opinions on the law, even
`though you are a patent agent?
` A I am not comfortable offering formal
`opinions, as I am on technical issues, on matters
`of the law.
` Q Let's turn to Paragraph 21.
` A I am there.
` Q Okay. I'm trying to understand what you
`meant in this paragraph.
` But before we get there, is it fair to
`say that your understanding of obviousness at
`least in part is set forth in Paragraph 21?
` A Yes, that's what it says.
` Q And you relied on the understanding that
`you've had -- of obviousness that you've set forth
`in Paragraph 21 to formulate your opinions in this
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`case?
` A Yes.
` MR. CHERNG: Object to form.
` A My opinions -- my opinions do relate to
`obviousness.
` Q Right. But the understanding you've set
`forth in Paragraph 21 of obviousness is the same
`understanding you used to render your opinions in
`this case. Right?
` MR. CHERNG: Object to form.
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. So I'm trying to understand what
`you mean there.
` Are you suggesting in Paragraph 21 that
`for a claim element to be obvious, the teaching
`for that claim element needs to be present in a
`reference?
` A Your question is unclear to me because
`I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "teaching."
` Q Okay. So how about this: So every claim
`limitation must be found present.
` Do you see that, in what you've written
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`in Paragraph 21?
` A Yes.
` Q What do you mean by, Every limitation
`must be found present in the combination of prior
`art references?
` A What I mean is that the embodiments of
`the references, if they're patent references, or
`the teaching of, that -- or a reference is not a
`patent reference, must describe in detail. So
`it's equivalent to an embodiment of a patent
`reference, must describe the claim limitation
`sufficiently for a person of ordinary skill to
`recognize the -- the claim limitation in the
`embodiment of the specification of that reference,
`of that patent reference.
` Q Okay. So let me try to use your words
`then.
` Under your understanding of obviousness,
`the claim limitations that you're challenging need
`to be actually described in the prior art
`references that you're using. Right?
` A They need to be described to at least
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`some degree of detail within the embodiments of --
`of the specification of a patent reference, yes.
` Q Can the knowledge of one of skill in the
`art be used to formulate the basis of obviousness?
` MR. CHERNG: Object to form.
` A It is permissible for a petitioner in
`this case to rely on the knowledge of a person of
`ordinary skill if they are explicitly making a
`combination between a reference and that knowledge
`of a person of ordinary skill.
` Q So in terms of what you have written down
`in Paragraph 21, that's not really a complete
`explanation of your understanding of obviousness.
` Right?
` A Correct. I mean, it is a one-sentence
`summary of a large body of law that relates to
`obviousness combinations.
` Q So a limitation of a claim element
`doesn't necessarily need to be found in a
`description of a prior art reference. Right?
` MR. CHERNG: Object to form.
` Q Under obviousness.
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` A My understanding is that for obviousness,
`the underlying principle then is that the
`petitioner is constructing a hypothetical
`embodiment from more than one source.
` One of those sources could be the
`knowledge of a person of ordinary skill; but the
`degree of specificity of that hypothetical
`embodiment has to be sufficient for a person of
`ordinary skill to read that hypothetical
`embodiment onto the claim.
` Q So a claim limitation doesn't necessarily
`need to be present in a prior art reference under
`obviousness to meet the standard of
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