UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` IPR2019-00819, IPR2019-00823, IPR2019-00824
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
`APPLE INC., : Patent Nos.
` Petitioner, : 9,712,494
` v. : 9,712,502
`MPH TECHNOLOGIES OY, : 9,838,362
` Patent Owner. :
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
`
` Deposition of
` DAVID GOLDSCHLAG, Ph.D.
` Conducted Virtually
` Tuesday, July 7, 2020
` 9:33 a.m. EDT
`
`Job No.: 306428
`Pages 1 - 296
`Reported by: Debra A. Whitehead
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`IPR2019-00823, Apple Inc. v. MPH Techs. Oy
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`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` IPR2019-00819, IPR2019-00823, IPR2019-00824
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
`APPLE INC., : Patent Nos.
` Petitioner, : 9,712,494
` v. : 9,712,502
`MPH TECHNOLOGIES OY, : 9,838,362
` Patent Owner. :
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
`
` Deposition of
` DAVID GOLDSCHLAG, Ph.D.
` Conducted Virtually
` Tuesday, July 7, 2020
` 9:33 a.m. EDT
`
`Job No.: 306428
`Pages 1 - 296
`Reported by: Debra A. Whitehead
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`2
`
`Deposition of DAVID GOLDSCHLAG, Ph.D., conducted
`virtually.
`
`Pursuant to notice, before Debra Ann Whitehead,
`E-Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of
`Virginia.
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`PLANET DEPOS
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`Exhibit 2013
`Page 2013-2
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
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`3
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
` ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
` DANIEL S. BLOCK, ESQUIRE
` STEVEN M. PAPPAS, ESQUIRE
` STERNE, KESSLER, GOLDSTEIN & FOX, PLLC
` 1100 New York Avenue, NW
` Washington, DC 20005
` (202) 371-2600
`
`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
` STEPHEN T. SCHREINER, ESQUIRE
` JAMES T. CARMICHAEL, ESQUIRE
` CARMICHAEL IP, PLLC
` 8000 Towers Crescent Drive
` 13th Floor
` Tysons Corner, Virginia 22182
` (703) 646-9250
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` JORDIN COLLINS, A/V Tech
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`PLANET DEPOS
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`4
`
` C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION OF DAVID GOLDSCHLAG, Ph.D. PAGE
` By Mr. Schreiner 6
` By Mr. Block 279
`
` E X H I B I T S
` (Attached to the transcript)
`DG DEPOSITION EXHIBIT PAGE
` Exhibit 1 Claims for 9,712,494 116
` (IPR2019-00823)
` Exhibit 2 RSIP Support for End-to-End 116
` IPsec, October 2001
` Exhibit 3 U.S. Patent No. 7,032,242 118
` Exhibit 4 Declaration of David Goldschlag, 119
` Ph.D.
` Exhibit 5 Declaration of Davi Goldschlag, 121
` Ph.D., in Support of Petitioner's
` Reply to Patent Owner's Response
` Exhibit 6 Decision Granting Institution of 122
` Inter Partes Review
` Exhibit 7 U.S. Patent No. 9,712,494 123
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`Page 2013-4
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`5
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` E X H I B I T S C O N T I N U E D
`DG DEPOSITION EXHIBIT PAGE
` Exhibit 8 Merriam-Webster's Collegiate 189
` Dictionary, Eleventh Edition,
` Pages 797 and 1077
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`6
`
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` DAVID GOLDSCHLAG, Ph.D.,
` having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PATENT OWNER
`BY MR. SCHREINER:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Goldschlag. How are
`you?
` A Good morning. Hope you're doing well.
` Q Thank you. I will be asking you a series
`of questions this morning and beyond. I ask that
`when I ask you a question you give me a verbal
`answer, so try not to simply nod yes or no, but
`give me a verbal yes or no.
` Do you understand that?
` A I understand.
` Q And I will try to make my questions as
`clear as possible. But I'm a frail human being,
`and so there will be occasions when I ask you
`questions that you don't understand or that are
`not clear. And if that occasion arises, you
`should feel free to ask me to rephrase the
`question.
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`7
`
` Do you understand that?
` A Yes.
` Q What did you do to prepare for today's
`deposition?
` A So I reviewed the materials, I spoke to
`the counsel, and of course we wrote the -- the
`declaration, the few declarations.
` Q I think you said rewrote the
`declarations. You mean you reviewed the
`declarations. Correct?
` A A collaborative process, yeah.
` Q But to prepare for today's deposition,
`you -- am I correct to understand that you
`reviewed your declarations?
` A Yeah, that -- that's correct. That is
`correct.
` Q You did not rewrite any declarations.
` Correct?
` A No. I thought you were saying in the
`process of preparing the declarations, is why.
` MR. SCHREINER: Okay. And, actually,
`while I'm thinking of it, I'd like to ask the
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`8
`
`court reporter, can you put up real time?
` I'd like to go off the record, please.
` (A recess was taken.)
`BY MR. SCHREINER:
` Q So, Dr. Goldschlag, you and I were
`talking about your preparation for this
`deposition.
` Do you recall that?
` A Yes.
` Q So tell me, which counsel did you meet
`with to prepare for this deposition?
` A I met with both Steve Pappas and Dan
`Block.
` Q I'm sorry. What was the name of the
`first gentleman?
` A Steve Pappas.
` Q If you know, is that K-A-P-P-O-S?
` A It's on the participant list here. P as
`in Paul, A-P-P-A-S.
` Q And how many times did you meet with
`either or both of Mr. Pappas and Mr. Block?
` MR. BLOCK: And I'm just going to caution
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`9
`
`the witness not to reveal any attorney-client
`privileged or work product information. But you
`can answer the question with how many times.
` A Yeah, I think it was a handful of times
`over the past couple of weeks.
` Q I'm sorry, you said a handful of times.
` Two to three times, or more than three
`times?
` A It might have been three times. It might
`have been four. I don't -- I don't remember
`exactly.
` Q And where did you meet with counsel on
`those three to four occasions?
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Outside the
`scope. Relevance.
` But you can answer.
` Q Please answer the question.
` A I have been working from home for four
`months, so ...
` Q So you met with them virtually.
` Is that correct?
` A Yeah, that's right.
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
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`10
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` Q And were Pappas and Mr. Block meeting
`with you?
` Strike that.
` Were both Mr. Pappas and Mr. Block
`meeting with you on each of those three or four
`occasions?
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Relevance.
`Outside the scope.
` And again I'll just caution the witness
`not to reveal any attorney-client privileged
`information, but you can answer that question to
`the extent you don't reveal that.
` Q Please answer the question.
` A Yeah, so I met -- I think Dan was on some
`of them, and Steve was on some of them.
` Q So were there any times where you met
`just with Mr. Pappas?
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Relevance.
` MR. SCHREINER: Dan, this is all proper
`background. Let's try not to waste time.
` MR. BLOCK: I mean, this is -- this is
`totally irrelevant. I don't see how it matters at
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
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`11
`
`all who he met with and, you know, whether both
`people were present.
` But, again, Dr. Goldschlag, you can
`answer the question.
` Q Please answer the question,
`Dr. Goldschlag.
` A Yeah, I think there were some times where
`Steve and I were prepping together.
` Q Without Mr. Block?
` A That's correct.
` Q Were there times when you prepared with
`Mr. Block without Mr. Pappas being virtually
`present?
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Relevance.
` A So I'm not recollecting. That may have
`may have also taken place.
` Q When was the last time you met with
`counsel to prepare for this deposition?
` A We met yesterday.
` Q And approximately how long did you spend
`yesterday preparing for today's deposition?
` A Maybe about half of the day.
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
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`12
`
` Q Is that roughly four hours?
` A That's probably right.
` Q You indicated when we first started
`talking here that you reviewed materials when you
`met with counsel.
` Do you recall that?
` A Yeah.
` Q What materials did you review to prepare
`for this deposition?
` A So I reviewed the patents themselves.
`Right? I reviewed my own declarations, the
`declarations of the other experts, and the
`proceedings filed by the parties.
` Q And when you say you reviewed the
`patents, are you referring to the three patents
`that are at -- that are at issue in this
`deposition?
` A Yes, that is correct.
` Q And so if I refer to them as the '494
`patent, the '502 patent, and the '362 patent, you
`understand what I'm referring to?
` A Yes, that's correct.
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`13
`
` Q And when you said you reviewed your
`declarations, can you clarify that for me?
` Which declarations did you review, your
`original declarations, your reply declarations, or
`both?
` A So -- so I reviewed the reply
`declarations, and I reviewed but much more briefly
`the first declarations.
` Q And you reviewed the reply declarations
`for each of the '494, '502, and '362 patents?
` Is that correct?
` A That is correct.
` Q And is it correct that you reviewed to
`some extent the original declarations for the
`'494, 592, and '362 patents?
` A Yeah. But as I said, mainly, you know,
`as references from within the declarations, the
`more recent declarations.
` Q Okay. And if I refer to the more recent
`declarations as your reply declarations, you
`understand what I'm referring to.
` Is that correct?
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`14
`
` A Yeah, I think so. I may not be using the
`same language, okay, so ...
` Q Okay. The declarations -- you recall you
`submitted three declarations on June 1st, 2020, in
`connection with these proceedings.
` Do you recall that?
` A So I don't have the date, the date in
`front of me. I seem to recall a different date
`than June 1st.
` Q Okay. I'm going to read from the caption
`of your reply declaration for the '494 patent.
`And it's entitled Declaration of David Goldschlag,
`Ph.D., in Support of Petitioner's Reply to Patent
`Owner's Response.
` Do you understand that?
` A Can you show me the document, please?
` Q We'll get to that.
` I just want to -- I just want to
`establish some lexicon here so that you understand
`what I'm saying and vice versa.
` A Yeah, but we're talking about a written
`document, so you're reading it. Maybe you could
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`Page 2013-14
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`15
`
`show it to me.
` Q Do you understand, when I refer to your
`reply declaration for the '494 patent, do you
`understand what I'm referring to?
` A Look. You just read a sentence from the
`document. You're expecting me to imagine that
`document. I'm just asking you to show the
`document to me.
` Q Okay. You said -- you said that you
`reviewed your -- you reviewed your most recent
`declarations as part of this deposition
`preparation.
` Is that correct?
` A I reviewed the most recent declarations.
` Q And were those declarations submitted in
`support of Apple's reply paper for these
`proceedings?
` A So I think -- look. You're confusing me
`a little bit. You gave a date. Okay? I don't
`recollect that date. Right? I recollected a
`different date.
` Q Sure.
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`16
`
` A All I'm asking is for you to show me the
`document.
` Q Sure. Let's do this: We're just going
`to present the document. We are not going to
`enter it as an exhibit yet, but we'll present it.
` MR. BLOCK: I don't -- I object to that.
`If you're going to be showing Dr. Goldschlag a
`document, you need to enter it into evidence.
`Again, some of this could have been avoided had
`you sent Dr. Goldschlag the paper exhibits as we
`had agreed.
` I would ask that you enter this, enter
`any exhibits that you show Dr. Goldschlag into the
`record.
` MR. SCHREINER: Okay. Well, that's fine.
`But that's -- I'm not going to enter it as an
`exhibit until I'm ready to enter it as an exhibit,
`Number 1.
` And Number 2, we didn't have an
`agreement. Okay? We're doing this deposition as
`a virtual deposition, like as many people do it.
` Okay?
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`17
`
` I understand this may be a little bit
`cumbersome for you, and it's also a little bit
`cumbersome for me, but it's the new reality.
` MR. BLOCK: So let me get this straight.
`You're suggesting we did not agree that you would
`send Dr. Goldschlag paper documents?
` MR. SCHREINER: That's correct. I never
`made any agreement to send him paper documents.
` MR. BLOCK: So when --
` MR. SCHREINER: You gave -- Dan, I'm not
`going to go back and forth on this. Okay? You
`said your piece, I said my piece. So --
` MR. BLOCK: Well, I think you're
`mischaracterizing the truth.
` MR. SCHREINER: I'm going to ask the
`court reporter to bring up Exhibit -- I'm sorry,
`the document that is Document 3, Petitioner's
`reply paper Re '494.
` MR. BLOCK: Just so we're clear on the
`record, you're going to show the witness a
`document and not enter it into the record.
` MR. SCHREINER: I'm going to show him the
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
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`18
`
`first page of the document, because he can't seem
`to remember or understand the title to his own
`document. So I'm trying to help your witness.
`Okay? This is all simply, Dan, to establish that
`he understands what I refer to -- when I refer to
`his reply declaration, what I'm referring to.
` MR. BLOCK: I guess I'm confused as to
`why you're refusing to enter it into the record.
` MR. SCHREINER: Madam court reporter,
`please pull up Document File Number 4, Exhibit
`1022, Goldschlag reply declaration.
` A/V TECHNICIAN: Please stand by.
` MR. SCHREINER: And just show the first
`page.
` A/V TECHNICIAN: And you said that was
`labeled Number 3?
` MR. SCHREINER: I'm sorry, it was labeled
`Number 4.
`BY MR. SCHREINER:
` Q Do you see the document entitled
`Declaration of David Goldschlag, Ph.D., in Support
`of Petitioner's Reply to Patent Owner's Response?
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`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`19
`
` A Is this the one that's labeled Exhibit
`1022 at the bottom?
` Q Yes, that's the original exhibit number
`assigned by Apple.
` Do you see it?
` A This is -- this is the first, the cover
`page. Right?
` Q This is the cover page, correct.
` A Right. So I don't see the date. You had
`said it was June 1st, I think?
` Q Yeah. Let's -- the date's really
`immaterial. I just want to know --
` A I'm pretty curious about the date. Maybe
`you could go to the signature page.
` MR. BLOCK: Perhaps we could enter this
`exhibit into the record and have Dr. Goldschlag
`scroll through it to ensure the authenticity of
`the document.
` MR. SCHREINER: Let's go to Page 30 of
`the document. Directly to Page 30 of the
`document. The very last page.
` MR. BLOCK: And again, I object to this
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`Exhibit 2013
`Page 2013-19
`IPR2019-00823, Apple Inc. v. MPH Techs. Oy
`
`
`
`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`20
`
`entire line of questioning but not entering this
`exhibit into the record. This is entirely
`inappropriate.
` Q Okay. Do you see the date?
` A Yeah, I see the date. So this is -- this
`is 30 pages? Thirty-two pages?
` Q So do you see on Page 30 of this
`document, it states, "Executed on this 1st day of
`June, 2020."
` Do you see that?
` A Yeah, I see it above my signature.
` Q So let's go back to Page 1 of the
`document, the caption page.
` Do you now recognize this as the reply
`declaration that you submitted in conjunction with
`the '494 patent proceeding?
` A So I think you showed me, like, what, 22
`pages out of 32 pages. So maybe you want to just
`click through.
` MR. BLOCK: Again, perhaps we can enter
`this document into the record, if you're going to
`be asking my witness questions about it.
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exhibit 2013
`Page 2013-20
`IPR2019-00823, Apple Inc. v. MPH Techs. Oy
`
`
`
`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`21
`
` MR. SCHREINER: I'm not asking your
`witness questions about the document. I'm asking
`your witness to understand that when I use the
`shorthand "reply declaration for the '494 patent,"
`that I am referring to, quote, Declaration of
`David Goldschlag, Ph.D., in Support of
`Petitioner's Reply to Patent Owner's Response.
`BY MR. SCHREINER:
` Q So, Dr. Goldschlag, when I refer to your
`reply declaration for the '494 patent, I am
`referring to this declaration.
` Do you understand that?
` A You're -- I assume you're referring to
`the three pages you showed me?
` Q I'm referring to the whole document. I'm
`just simply trying to establish some language that
`you and I can use, rather than me referring to the
`title, the entire title of the document.
` MR. BLOCK: One easy way would be to
`enter this document into the record and then you
`can refer to it as an exhibit.
` Q Dr. Goldschlag, going forward, when I
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`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exhibit 2013
`Page 2013-21
`IPR2019-00823, Apple Inc. v. MPH Techs. Oy
`
`
`
`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`22
`
`refer to "the reply declaration for the '494
`patent," I'm going to be referring to this
`document.
` When I refer to "the reply declaration
`for the '502 patent," I'm going to be referring to
`your reply declaration that you submitted in
`support of the '502 patent.
` When I refer to the reply declaration --
`excuse me, "the reply declaration for the '362
`patent," I'm going to be referring to the reply
`declaration you submitted in support of the '362
`patent.
` MR. SCHREINER: Okay. So we can go ahead
`and take the document down.
` A Again, you showed me three pages of this
`document.
` MR. SCHREINER: We can go ahead and take
`this down.
` Q Mr. Block referred to you as his witness.
` Do you consider yourself his witness
`today?
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Relevance.
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exhibit 2013
`Page 2013-22
`IPR2019-00823, Apple Inc. v. MPH Techs. Oy
`
`
`
`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`23
`
` A I don't recollect what -- what you were
`just referring to, but I was brought in here to be
`expert in the field to testify about this
`material. And I --
` Q Are you --
` A I'm sorry?
` Q Are you Mr. Block's witness today or are
`you my witness today?
` A It -- the --
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Form.
` A I'm testifying here today as an expert
`witness, okay, to deliver accurate and truthful
`information to the best of my ability about
`these -- these materials.
` Q Okay. And you understand that patent
`owner MPH is taking your deposition as a witness
`today. Correct?
` A With you as counsel, yes.
` Q Thank you. I'd like to talk to you about
`your invention for the onion router.
` Correct me if I'm wrong, but from your CV
`you were an inventor on the onion router invention
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`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exhibit 2013
`Page 2013-23
`IPR2019-00823, Apple Inc. v. MPH Techs. Oy
`
`
`
`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`24
`
`for which you received a patent. Correct?
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Outside the
`scope.
` Q Please answer the question.
` A Yeah, back -- back in the 1990s I was one
`of three co-inventors of onion routing.
` Q Is that how you refer to it, as onion
`routing? That -- let's use your language here.
`What do you call your invention, that invention?
` A I think colloquially known as onion
`routing.
` Q And you're familiar with the term "TOR,"
`T-O-R?
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Outside the
`scope.
` A I am.
` Q And how does TOR relate to onion routing?
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Outside the
`scope.
` A So onion routing was the invention of the
`three co-inventors in the 1990s. And TOR, which I
`believe stands for "the onion router," is a
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exhibit 2013
`Page 2013-24
`IPR2019-00823, Apple Inc. v. MPH Techs. Oy
`
`
`
`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`25
`
`successor system to onion routing.
` Q Were you involved in the development of
`TOR, the successor system to onion routing?
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Outside the
`scope. Relevance.
` A So TOR depends on references. Many
`things that we invented as part of the onion
`routing system, but TOR was developed after I left
`Naval Research Lab.
` Q So was TOR developed by NRL, Naval
`Research Lab?
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Outside the
`scope.
` A So I -- you know, I'm not a party to that
`anymore. I know one of the -- one of the active
`researchers on TOR continues to work for Naval
`Research Laboratory.
` Q Did NRL create the TOR technology?
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Outside the
`scope. We're here today to talk about
`Dr. Goldschlag's reply declaration which says
`nothing about TOR. TOR is not related at all to
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exhibit 2013
`Page 2013-25
`IPR2019-00823, Apple Inc. v. MPH Techs. Oy
`
`
`
`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`26
`
`the matters at hand today. This is entirely
`outside the scope and irrelevant questioning.
` MR. SCHREINER: Okay. Dan, this is all
`proper background inquiry. This is in his CV.
` Okay?
` MR. BLOCK: Which is not part of his
`reply declaration.
` MR. SCHREINER: It's in his CV, which
`references his original CV, which references
`routing and TOR.
` MR. BLOCK: Perhaps you could point me to
`the paragraph in his reply declaration that
`references his original CV?
` MR. SCHREINER: It's all proper
`background today. It's all proper background
`inquiry.
` MR. BLOCK: Which by definition is not
`proper during this reply deposition.
`BY MR. SCHREINER:
` Q Dr. Goldschlag, did NRL create the TOR
`technology, based on your knowledge?
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Outside the
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`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exhibit 2013
`Page 2013-26
`IPR2019-00823, Apple Inc. v. MPH Techs. Oy
`
`
`
`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`27
`
`scope.
` A I think I answered that. You know, at
`least one of the researchers on TOR has worked,
`right, for Naval Research Laboratory.
` Q What is your understanding of the
`differences between onion routing and its
`successor TOR?
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Relevance.
`Outside the scope.
` A Yeah, so, you know, I didn't prepare, you
`know, answers to that. You know, I didn't review
`the TOR materials.
` Q I understand that. But you're familiar
`with the onion routing invention, and you know
`about TOR, you're aware of TOR. Correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. So I'm simply asking you, based on
`your personal knowledge, you're here under oath to
`testify to the best of your recollection, I'm
`simply asking you what is your understanding of
`the differences between the onion routing
`invention and its successor TOR?
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`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exhibit 2013
`Page 2013-27
`IPR2019-00823, Apple Inc. v. MPH Techs. Oy
`
`
`
`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`28
`
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Outside the
`scope. Relevance.
` A So -- so they shared the same -- the same
`goals. Right? Which is to enable private and
`perhaps anonymous communication over the internet.
`The implementations are different.
` Q What's your understanding as to how the
`implementations of TOR and onion routing are
`different?
` MR. BLOCK: Objection. Outside the
`scope.
` Counsel, I'm giving you some leeway here,
`but if you continue down this line of questioning
`we're going to perhaps have to end this
`deposition. Because this is entirely outside the
`scope.
` So unless you can tie this to his reply
`declaration in some fashion, you know, this entire
`line of questioning is outside the scope.
` But you can answer the question.
` MR. SCHREINER: Dan, instead of objecting
`to every single question with your monologues, you
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`
`Exhibit 2013
`Page 2013-28
`IPR2019-00823, Apple Inc. v. MPH Techs. Oy
`
`
`
`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`29
`
`can have a continuing objection on scope and
`relevance. So why don't we --
` MR. BLOCK: I'm going to --
` MR. SCHREINER: Why don't we say -- I'm
`talking, and then you can respond.
` Why don't we say that you have a
`continuing objection to scope and relevance on my
`inquiries as to the onion router and TOR.
` MR. BLOCK: I'm not going to agree to
`that. I will -- I'm going to object to the
`questions that I see objectionable. And, you
`know, we're going to continue that way.
` I guess my point is that if you continue
`to ask questions or significant more questions
`about this, then we're going to end the
`deposition. Because this is outside the scope,
`and unless you can tie it to his reply
`declaration, so unless you can tie this line of
`questioning to something relevant to why we're
`here to talk about today, then this line of
`questioning is improper.
` MR. SCHREINER: Okay. Dan, since you're
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`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exhibit 2013
`Page 2013-29
`IPR2019-00823, Apple Inc. v. MPH Techs. Oy
`
`
`
`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`30
`
`threatening to end the deposition, let's go ahead
`and take a break. We'll take a five-minute break.
` Let's go off the record, madam reporter.
` MR. BLOCK: Perhaps we can talk
`separately. Look, Steve, if you have some way to
`tie this to the reply declaration, then I will
`withdraw my objections.
` MR. SCHREINER: Let's go off the record
`for five minutes, madam reporter.
` (A recess was taken.)
` MR. SCHREINER: Mr. Block, you told me I
`didn't need to send you any hard copies of the
`documents because you had them electronically.
` Correct?
` MR. BLOCK: I said that with respect to
`me, and I'm not the witness, but with respect to
`me, you did not need to send documents to me, that
`is true.
` But you also told me that you were going
`to send paper documents to Dr. Goldschlag just as
`though -- just like Apple did for MPH because MPH
`demanded that Apple send paper documents to its
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exhibit 2013
`Page 2013-30
`IPR2019-00823, Apple Inc. v. MPH Techs. Oy
`
`
`
`Transcript of David Goldschlag, Ph.D.
`Conducted on July 7, 2020
`
`31
`
`witnesses. You refused to do so here today and
`are now showing Dr. Goldschlag documents and not
`entering them into the record, which is entirely
`inappropriate. And if that's how we're going to
`proceed today I think we are going to have some
`continued issues.
` MR. SCHREINER: Okay. I disagree with
`nearly everything you said, and it's irrelevant to
`the point at hand.
` MR. BLOCK: Why did you ask me --
` MR. SCHREINER: The point at hand is
`whether Dr. Goldschlag's reply declaration
`references his CV. Page 1 of his reply
`declaration for the '494 patent references, My CV
`was provided as Exhibit 1021.
` Now, if you refer to his CV, Exhibit
`1021, on Page 1, it states that he is the
`co-inventor of onion routing, now called TOR.
` Okay?
` So are you satisfied now that there's a
`nexus between his reply declaration and his CV?
` MR. BLOCK: I disagree with the point I
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`Exhibit 2013
`Page 2013-31
`IPR2019-008
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