`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`APPLE INC., :
`Petitioner,
`: CASE NOS:
`V.
`: IPR2019-00823
`MPH TECHNOLOGIES OY,
`: IPR2019-00824
`Patent Owner.
`: IPR2019-00826
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`
`Deposition of DOCTOR MICHAEL S. BORELLA
`Conducted virtually
`Monday, May 18, 2020
`10:43 a.m.
`
`Job No.: 298680
`Pages: 1 - 266
`Reported By: Dianna C. Kilgalen
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`Apple v. MPH
`IPR2019-00823
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`Transcript of Doctor Michael S. Borella
`Conducted on May 18, 2020
`
`2
`
` Deposition of DOCTOR MICHAEL S. BORELLA,
`conducted virtually.
`
` Pursuant to notice, before Dianna C.
`Kilgalen, Notary Public in and for the State of
`Maryland.
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`Transcript of Doctor Michael S. Borella
`Conducted on May 18, 2020
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`3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
` DANIEL S. BLOCK, ESQUIRE
` MICHAEL D. SPECHT, ESQUIRE
` STERNE, KESSLER, GOLDSTEIN & FOX, PLLC
` 1100 New York Avenue, Northwest
` Washington, DC 20005
` 202.371.2600
`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
` JAMES T. CARMICHAEL, ESQUIRE
` STEPHEN T. SCHREINER, ESQUIRE
` CARMICHAEL IP, PLLC
` 8000 Towers Crescent Drive
` 13th Floor
` Tysons Corner, Virginia 22182
` 703.646.9250
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`Transcript of Doctor Michael S. Borella
`Conducted on May 18, 2020
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`4
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` A P P E A R A N C E S C O N T I N U E D
`ON BEHALF OF THE DEPONENT:
` JAMES L. LOVSIN, ESQUIRE
` McDONNELL, BOEHNEN, HULBERT &
` BERGHOFF, LLP
` 300 South Wacker Drive
` Suite 3100
` Chicago, Illinois 60606
` 312.913.0001
`
`Also present:
` Steven Pappas
` Alan Ross, AV Technician Planet Depos
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`Transcript of Doctor Michael S. Borella
`Conducted on May 18, 2020
`
`5
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` C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION OF DOCTOR MICHAEL S. BORELLA PAGE
`By Mr. Block 6, 252
`By Mr. Carmichael 249
`
` E X H I B I T S
` (Attached to the transcript.)
`BORELLA DEPOSITION EXHIBIT PAGE
`Exhibit 1 IPR2019-00823 - Ex. 2010 -
` Borella Declaration 22
`Exhibit 2 IPR2019-00824 - Ex. 2010 -
` Borella Declaration 2-19-2020 34
`Exhibit 3 IPR2019-00826 - Ex. 2010 -
` Borella Declaration 36
`Exhibit 4 IPR2019-00823 - Ex. 1006 -
` Grabelsky (USP7032242) 96
`Exhibit 5 IPR2019-00823-Ex. 1004-RFC3104 109
`Exhibit 6 IPR2019-00823-Ex. 2004-RFC3103 187
`Exhibit 7 IPR2019-00823-Paper 7-2019.11.06 -
` Decision Granting Institution 209
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`Transcript of Doctor Michael S. Borella
`Conducted on May 18, 2020
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`6
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` DOCTOR MICHAEL S. BORELLA, having been
`duly sworn, testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE PETITIONER
`BY MR. BLOCK:
` Q. Good morning, Doctor Borella. Could you
`please state your full name for the record?
` A. Michael Scott Borella.
` MR. BLOCK: And actually, before we get
`started, maybe we can just have counsel
`introduce each other for the record. This is Dan
`Block on behalf of Petitioner Apple. With me
`today is Steve Pappas, also of the law firm of
`Sterne, Kessler, Goldstein & Fox. I'm also
`joined by Michael Specht of the same law firm.
` MR. CARMICHAEL: James Carmichael for
`Patent Owner MPH, and with me is Steve Schreiner
`also with Carmichael.
` MR. LOVSIN: James Lovsin of McDonnell,
`Boehnen, Hulbert & Berghoff on behalf of Doctor
`Borella.
` MR. BLOCK: Thank you. Thank you
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`Transcript of Doctor Michael S. Borella
`Conducted on May 18, 2020
`
`7
`
`everybody.
`BY MR. BLOCK:
` Q. Doctor Borella, have you ever had your
`deposition taken before?
` A. I have.
` Q. How many times have you had your
`deposition taken?
` A. One time.
` Q. Since -- when was that deposition
`roughly?
` A. Approximately 2008.
` Q. All right. Since it has been a little
`bit of time since your last deposition, I'm just
`going to go over a couple of the ground rules
`today so we are all on the same page.
` I think they are probably more important
`than ever given the fact that this deposition is
`a remote deposition. Before I forget, I do want
`to thank you for doing this under these
`interesting circumstances that we are dealing
`with right now.
` First, you understand that your
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`8
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`testimony is being transcribed by the court
`reporter, Dianna?
` A. I understand that.
` Q. And that means you need to give your
`answers orally to make sure that she can properly
`write down what you are saying.
` A. Correct.
` Q. And as the court reporter mentioned
`before she swore you in, one thing that will make
`today a lot easier is if you wait until I'm done
`answering my questions before giving your answer,
`and likewise, what I will try to do is wait until
`you are done with your answer before I ask my
`next question.
` Does that sound fair?
` A. That sounds fair.
` Q. It's not a marathon, today's deposition.
`I tend to take breaks every hour or so. If you
`need a break before then, will you let your
`counsel know?
` I just ask that you -- if there is a
`question pending, that you answer that question
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`before we take a break.
` Does that sound fair?
` A. Sounds fair.
` Q. My job today is to ask questions and
`your job is to answer my questions. If you don't
`understand one of my questions, will you let me
`know?
` A. I will.
` Q. Otherwise, if you do answer my question,
`I'm going to assume that you understood it.
`Sound fair?
` A. If I answer your question, it will be to
`the best of my understanding of that question.
` Q. Right. But unless you tell me that you
`didn't understand it, my only assumption is that
`you did understand it to some extent.
` Does that sound fair?
` A. I'm not sure that sounds fair.
` Q. But you will let me know if you don't
`understand my question?
` A. I will do my best.
` Q. That's a yes?
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`Conducted on May 18, 2020
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`10
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` A. If I have a lack of understanding of
`your question, I will attempt to let you know.
` Q. You understand that you are under oath
`today?
` A. I do.
` Q. And that means you need to give true and
`complete answers to the best of your ability?
` A. And I will.
` Q. Okay. Is there any reason you can't do
`that today?
` A. No.
` Q. So you understand you are here today to
`discuss three expert declarations that you
`submitted in a number of IPR proceedings?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you ever submitted any expert
`opinions in any kind of litigation or proceeding
`in the past?
` A. No.
` Q. This is the first time that you have
`served as an expert?
` A. Yes.
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`Conducted on May 18, 2020
`
`11
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` Q. And you are an attorney?
` A. I am.
` Q. What law firm do you work for?
` A. McDonnell, Boehnen, Hulbert & Berghoff.
` Q. That is also known as MBHP. Is that
`right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. How long have you been working for MBHP?
` A. Since 2007.
` Q. How long have you been an attorney for?
` A. Since 2011.
` Q. So you started working at MBHP I presume
`as a non-attorney. Is that right?
` A. That's right.
` Q. And what was your position when you
`first started working at MBHP?
` A. Technical advisor.
` Q. And at any point did your role change at
`MBHP?
` A. It did.
` Q. And what -- when was that approximately?
` A. In 2011 when I became an attorney.
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`Conducted on May 18, 2020
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`12
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` Q. Prior to becoming an attorney, did you
`take and pass the patent bar?
` A. I did.
` Q. And so at some point, were you a patent
`agent?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Did your title change when you
`became a patent agent from technical advisor?
` A. I don't believe it did.
` Q. What is your current role at MBHP?
` A. I'm a partner.
` Q. How long have you been a partner for?
` A. Since 2015.
` Q. In terms of the type of work that you do
`at MBHP, would you say that it's primarily patent
`prosecution related?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Do you also work on any kind of
`litigations or inter parties proceedings?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you ever worked in an inter parties
`proceeding before the PTAB?
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`Conducted on May 18, 2020
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`13
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` A. Yes.
` Q. How many PTAB proceedings have you
`worked on?
` A. Three.
` Q. And were those inter parties reviews?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Were you representing the Petitioner or
`the Patent Owner in those cases, if you recall?
` A. The Patent Owner.
` Q. So it's fair to say you have been
`working with patents I think you said since, what
`was it, 2007? Is that right?
` A. That's right.
` Q. Would you consider yourself an expert in
`patent law?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Objection. Calls for a
`legal conclusion. Scope.
` A. That's not something I have formed an
`opinion on.
` Q. So you don't have an opinion on whether
`you are an expert in patent law?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Objection. Asked and
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`Conducted on May 18, 2020
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`14
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`answered. Vague.
` A. I'm not sure what you mean by expert.
` Q. Well, would you consider yourself
`knowledgeable in patent law?
` A. It's not something I have formulated an
`opinion on.
` Q. So you don't know whether you are
`knowledgeable in patent law?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Objection. Vague.
` A. That's not something I formed an opinion
`on.
` Q. So to be clear, you are a partner in a
`law firm that specializes -- yourself, you
`specialize in patent law. Is that right?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Objection. Vague.
` A. I'm not sure what you mean by
`specialize.
` Q. Well, how much of your work relates to
`patent law at MBHP?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Objection.
` A. I don't think I can quantify that on the
`fly.
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`Conducted on May 18, 2020
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`15
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` Q. Does any of your work relate to
`non-patent law?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Would you consider it to be a larger
`percentage than the work that you have -- that
`you perform that relates to patent law?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Objection. Vague.
` A. A larger percentage of what?
` Q. In other words, do you spend more time
`working on matters related to patent law or other
`matters?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Objection.
` A. Most of my work is related to patent
`law.
` Q. Right. As somebody who performs most of
`his work related to patent law as a partner at
`law firm, you don't know whether you are
`knowledgeable about patent law?
` A. That's not something I have formed an
`opinion on.
` Q. Have you ever held yourself out to be
`knowledgeable about patent law to clients or
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`16
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`potential clients?
` A. I still don't know what you mean by
`knowledgeable.
` Q. Well, what does the term knowledgeable
`mean to you?
` A. That's not something I have formed an
`opinion on.
` Q. So you don't know what the word
`knowledgeable means to you?
` A. It's not something I have considered.
` Q. Have you ever used the term
`knowledgeable before in your life?
` A. Most likely.
` Q. And you know what the word means, right?
` A. I'm not sure what it means in the
`context of your question.
` Q. Do you have an understanding of patent
`law?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Objection. Vague.
` A. I'm not sure what you mean by
`understanding.
` Q. What does the word understanding mean to
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`Conducted on May 18, 2020
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`17
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`you?
` A. I don't understand what you mean in the
`context of the question.
` Q. Well, you just used the word understand.
`How do you use it?
` A. I use it to convey the fact that your
`question could mean different things to different
`people.
` Q. Well, what different things could it
`mean?
` A. It would require speculation.
` Q. So how do you know that it means
`different things if you can't tell me the
`different things that it means?
` A. It's not something I contemplated for
`purposes of this declaration.
` Q. So if you haven't contemplated it, how
`can you tell me that the word understand has
`different meanings?
` A. It's a vague term.
` Q. So you think the word understand is
`vague?
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`18
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` A. I don't understand -- I don't know how
`you are using it. I don't know what you mean by
`it.
` Q. I just -- I mean it in the plain and
`ordinary meaning of the term. Do you have an
`understanding of patent law? Do you have
`knowledge about patent law?
` A. That's not something I've contemplated.
` Q. How many patent applications have you
`drafted roughly?
` A. I don't recall.
` Q. Would you say more than a hundred?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Would you say more than 500?
` A. I don't recall.
` Q. So somewhere between a hundred and 500
`applications, maybe more?
` A. I don't recall the exact number.
` Q. But certainly more than a hundred?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. So as somebody who has certainly
`drafted more than a hundred patent applications,
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`19
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`you can't tell me whether you have an
`understanding of patent law?
` A. I still don't know how you are using
`that term. So I can't answer your question until
`you tell me what you mean by an understanding of
`patent law.
` Q. Do you have knowledge of patent law?
` A. What do you mean by knowledge?
` Q. Are you aware of legal-related matters
`with respect to patent law?
` A. What do you mean by legal-related
`matters?
` Q. Are you familiar with case law related
`to patent law?
` A. I know what case law is.
` Q. Are you familiar with any case law
`itself that relates to patent law?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Would you consider yourself
`knowledgeable about the case law that relates to
`patent law?
` A. I still don't understand how you are
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`20
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`using that word.
` Q. I guess I don't understand how you don't
`know what the word knowledge means. So why don't
`you tell us your definition of the word knowledge
`in any context? And then we will see if that
`works for my question.
` A. That's not something I formed an opinion
`on.
` Q. Sitting here today right now, you can't
`tell me to you what the word knowledge means?
` A. I'm waiting for you to define it more
`clearly.
` Q. Well, I'm not asking for your opinion.
`I'm just asking -- I'm asking you what it means
`to you.
` A. It's not something I can define on the
`fly.
` Q. Have you used the term knowledge before?
` A. Yes.
` Q. How did you use it? How did you mean it
`when you used it?
` A. That depends on context. It can mean
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`Conducted on May 18, 2020
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`21
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`different things in different situations to
`different people at different points in time.
` Q. Take any time you used the word
`knowledge in any context and tell me the way you
`meant it.
` A. I can't think of a specific time off the
`top of my head.
` Q. You have opined in this case of the
`knowledge of a person of ordinary skill in the
`art, right?
` A. I have.
` Q. Okay. So would you define knowledge
`with respect to the knowledge level required for
`a person of ordinary skill in the art?
` A. I believe if you refer to my declaration
`on the 494 patent proceeding, paragraph 15.
` MR. BLOCK: Well, before we -- before we
`do that, why don't I -- why don't I just
`officially introduce each of these exhibits and
`then we can talk about this issue?
` So if the technician -- if, Alan, you
`could bring up the 494 declaration, which I think
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`is Exhibit 2010. We can mark this as Exhibit 1
`to Doctor Borella's deposition.
` (Whereupon, Borella Deposition Exhibit
`1 was marked for identification and attached to
`the transcript.)
` MR. BLOCK: If we could scroll back up
`there a little bit, Jim -- Alan, if you can
`scroll down just a little bit so we can see the
`title of the document. Perfect.
`BY MR. BLOCK:
` Q. Doctor Borella, I have brought up on the
`screen and I believe you have in your hands right
`now Exhibit 2010 to IPR 2019-00823. Is that
`right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And this declaration this is a
`declaration that you submitted in this
`proceeding?
` A. If you could hold on for one moment,
`Mr. Block, I need to check something. I'm going
`to need a side bar with Mr. Carmichael.
` MR. BLOCK: Absolutely. You should mute
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`23
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`your -- mute your mic.
` Doctor Borella, just let me know when
`you are ready. I see you in front of the camera
`there, but you are still muted.
` (Thereupon, there was a recess taken at
`11:00 a.m.)
` (Thereupon, the proceedings were resumed
`at 11:14 a.m.)
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Dan, we are
`investigating this copy that you put in the box,
`because I think it might not be the right one.
`Now, if you look on the very last page, if you
`have the same copy that was in the box, if you
`look at the very last page, please.
` MR. BLOCK: Hold on. That is
`interesting. How is it we have a copy that is
`not signed?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: We are investigating
`that. My operating theory is that you got one
`copy from the electronic service from the PTAB
`which you should have used, and perhaps another
`copy we sent to you that we shouldn't have, in
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`24
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`which case we want to claw it back as privileged
`and work product. But I need a few minutes to
`nail this down.
` MR. BLOCK: Okay.
` MR. CARMICHAEL: In the meantime, I
`would suggest that you avail yourself of the one
`that was actually filed and served electronically
`through the PTAB filing service.
` MR. BLOCK: Let me just make sure I
`understand what you are saying. Are you saying
`you may have served this version on us but filed
`a different version?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: I'm investigating that.
` MR. BLOCK: Okay.
` MR. CARMICHAEL: In the meantime, you
`should probably look at the one that was served
`on you through the PTAB automatic service system,
`or you can pull it off of the PTAB website if you
`want to.
` MR. BLOCK: Okay. Yeah. I see it on
`the PTAB website. All right. Yeah. I mean,
`that's -- well, let's see where things stand,
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`25
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`because I -- the bottom line is if there are
`substantive differences between those two, I
`don't know if there are, there may not be, that's
`going to be problematic. So but -- well,
`continue your investigation.
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Okay.
` (Thereupon, there was a recess taken at
`11:16 a.m.)
` (Thereupon, the proceedings were resumed
`at 11:20 a.m.)
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Okay. Dan, can you
`hear me?
` MR. BLOCK: I can hear you.
` MR. CARMICHAEL: I investigated the
`service copy and it matches what we filed at the
`PTAB. It's a signed and dated version of Doctor
`Borella's declaration.
` Just now I reforwarded to you the
`service copy that we e-mailed to you and it will
`match the one that was served on you by the
`electronic system from the PTAB as well.
` Where you got this unsigned undated one
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`Conducted on May 18, 2020
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`26
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`is currently a mystery. But nonetheless, I'm
`objecting to its use as work product and propose
`that we will want to claw it back and not answer
`questions about it.
` We are prepared to have Doctor Borella
`be examined about the declaration that he
`actually signed and dated that was actually filed
`at the PTAB and that was actually served on you.
` MR. BLOCK: Right. Well, so I
`understand your position. I would agree to
`examine him on the new declaration that has his
`signature on it, the -- just for the purposes of
`making this deposition as efficient as possible.
` I'm not agreeing at this moment to
`clawing back. It's not like we obtained this
`declaration via any improper purposes. I'm
`certain that it was e-mailed to us in some
`fashion.
` There may have been some kind of mix-up.
`I'm not sure where we got it from either. But,
`you know, it certainly was from you. I think we
`can all agree there.
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`27
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` So I would like to do some more
`investigation on our side as well before I would
`agree to any kind of clawing back with respect to
`this deposition.
` That said, for purposes of just making
`today efficient and not delaying today's
`deposition any further, I'm willing to examine
`Doctor Borella on the declaration that you --
`that is signed.
` The only question I really have then is
`do you want to print it out? Does he have
`another copy? How do you want to handle the
`paper copy?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: He has a paper copy of
`the declaration that he actually signed and was
`filed and served.
` MR. BLOCK: Okay. Fair enough. Then
`since I can't really see what he has in front of
`him, does he have copy of all three so we are not
`wasting any more time?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: I think the other two
`in the box were fine.
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` MR. BLOCK: So it's just that one?
`Okay. Interesting.
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Yes.
` MR. BLOCK: All right. Yeah. Look, I'm
`willing to delay the conversation about the
`clawback to some later date once we figure out
`what exactly happened.
` I will tell you, having done a quick
`comparison myself, there are some differences
`between the two declarations beyond just missing
`signature. I'm not sure.
` We will have to look and investigate the
`circumstances on that. I don't know whether they
`matter or not, but that will be for a later date.
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Okay. And in case you
`need to print out the file copy, I just
`reforwarded to you the service e-mail.
` MR. BLOCK: I appreciate that. I was
`able to -- let me just make sure I have the --
`hold on a second. I was able to pull it off the
`PTAB's website. So hold on. Okay. Why don't
`we -- so what we need to do -- one second here.
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`Conducted on May 18, 2020
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`29
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`I don't know how to get this --
` Alan, what -- can you send me an e-mail
`so I have your e-mail address? I need to forward
`you this document so that you can -- so that you
`can get the right document marked.
` AV TECH ROSS: This will be -- so this
`will replace Exhibit 1? I will put my e-mail
`address in the chat. You should be able to see
`it there. You can send me the file. I will just
`put that in there.
` I have to say there is a lot of feedback
`on the witness's audio feed. I don't know if
`it's making it difficult for the reporter to
`hear. If it is, I have to troubleshoot.
` THE REPORTER: Yes. It is making it a
`little difficult for me.
` AV TECH ROSS: While Mr. Block is
`sending that, Mr. Carmichael, are you able to
`hear me?
` (Thereupon, there was a recess taken at
`11:27 a.m.)
` (Thereupon, there was a technical issue
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`30
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`discussion off the record.)
` (Thereupon, the proceedings were resumed
`at 11:29 a.m.)
` MR. BLOCK: Jim, we did do some
`investigating on our side. And it looks as
`though there was a service e-mail from Steve
`which is where we got this from.
` Again, we will still proceed, as we
`discussed. It was on February 19th is when we
`received that e-mail from Steve with the exhibit.
`But in any event, we will proceed as planned.
` I will just put on the record, you know,
`that we had a discussion, you know, we came to
`learn that we were using the wrong exhibit. We
`are still investigating how that came to be.
` In any event, we are going to be
`proceeding with what was filed at the PTAB.
`Sound good?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Okay. So this is the
`incorrect Exhibit 1.
` MR. BLOCK: It should be up on the
`screen now. I see you are just talking to the
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`31
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`witness. Yeah. Are we ready to proceed?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Dan, it would be
`helpful if you would forward the e-mail in which
`you received the incorrect copy to help us
`straighten it out.
` MR. BLOCK: Yeah. In one of the breaks,
`I will take care of it, or I will have someone --
`I will have someone do it so you guys -- so you
`guys have it. Okay. If I don't do it, just
`remind me. I will send it to you.
` If it's that important, I think we are
`good, because we delete our e-mails after a
`period of time, but I think it should be coming.
`BY MR. BLOCK:
` Q. All right. Doctor Borella, are you
`ready?
` A. Yes.
` MR. BLOCK: Okay. Dianna, are you good?
`Welcome back, Doctor Borella. Counsel for Patent
`Owner informed me that we appear to be using a
`different version of your declaration than what
`was submitted to the PTAB.
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`32
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` We are investigating as to how we came
`into possession of that, and we will discuss that
`matter further with counsel for Patent Owner
`after this deposition.
` In the meantime, we have agreed off the
`record, but I will state it for the record, to
`use the declaration that you submitted to the
`PTAB.
` As I understand it, Alan has that up on
`the screen right now. I will just reintroduce
`this exhibit.
`BY MR. BLOCK:
` Q. So Doctor Borella, this is a document
`that is labeled Exhibit 2010 for a case IPR
`2019-00823. It is also titled Declaration of
`Michael S. Borella.
` Do you recognize this document?
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Dan, for housekeeping,
`can you show the last page to see if it is
`signed, this is the signed version?
` MR. BLOCK: Okay.
` Q. So Doctor Borella, do you recognize this
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`33
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`document?
` A. I do.
` Q. And just so we are clear for the record,
`this is the declaration that you understood you
`had submitted in this proceeding. Is that right?
` A. Yes, it is. But from time to time, I
`will be verifying against the paper copy I have
`in front of me.
` Q. As I had mentioned, I think we -- I'm
`okay with you just using the paper copy, assuming
`that works for you, that you have in front of
`you.
` A few more housekeeping items; this
`proceeding IPR 2019-00823 relates to a Patent
`9,712,494. Is that correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And if I refer to that patent as the 494
`patent, you will understand that I'm referring to
`U. S. Patent Number 9,712,494?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And if I refer to this proceeding as the
`494 proceeding, you'll understand I'm referring
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`34
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`to IPR 2019-00823?
` A. Correct.
` MR. BLOCK: Okay. Why don't we just
`bring up the other declarations right now? That
`way, we can all be sure we have the right
`document in front of them and I will continue on.
` So Alan I think if you could bring up
`Exhibit 2 that you had premarked before. And
`before you mark it, why don't you just go ahead
`and scroll down to the bottom? Okay. All right.
` (Whereupon, Borella Deposition Exhibit
`2 was marked for identification and attached to
`the transcript.)
` Q. Doctor Borella, you have in front of you
`an exhibit we have marked as Exhibit 2. This is
`also labeled Exhibit 2010 to case IPR 2019-00824.
`Do you recognize this document?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And this is the declaration that you
`submitted for that proceeding?
` A. It is.
` Q. And that proceeding IPR 2019-00824
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`35
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`relates to a U. S. Patent Number 9,712,502?
` A. Yes.
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Dan, excuse me. For
`the sake of a clear record, for these other two,
`would you mind showing the last page again?
` MR. BLOCK: Absolutely. Alan, if you
`can scroll down there. I thought we had done
`that earlier. But --
` MR. CARMICHAEL: Thank you.
` Q.