UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`APPLE INC.,
`:
`Petitioner,
`: CASE NOS:
`: IPR2019-00819
`v.
`: IPR2019-00820
`MPH TECHNOLOGIES OY,
`: IPR2019-00821
`Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`
`Deposition of GEORGE N. ROUSKAS, Ph.D.
`Tysons Corner, Virginia
`Friday, March 20, 2020
`9:03 a.m.
`
`Job No.: 289647
`Pages: 1 - 232
`Reported By: Debra Ann Whitehead
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`Apple EX1021
`Apple v. MPH
`IPR2019-00820
`
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`APPLE INC.,
`:
`Petitioner,
`: CASE NOS:
`: IPR2019-00819
`v.
`: IPR2019-00820
`MPH TECHNOLOGIES OY,
`: IPR2019-00821
`Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`
`Deposition of GEORGE N. ROUSKAS, Ph.D.
`Tysons Corner, Virginia
`Friday, March 20, 2020
`9:03 a.m.
`
`Job No.: 289647
`Pages: 1 - 232
`Reported By: Debra Ann Whitehead
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`Apple EX1021
`Apple v. MPH
`IPR2019-00820
`
`
`
`Transcript of George N. Rouskas, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`2
`
`Deposition of GEORGE N. ROUSKAS, Ph.D., held
`at the offices of:
`
`CARMICHAEL IP, PLLC
`8000 Towers Crescent Drive
`13th Floor
`Tysons Corner, Virginia 22182
`(703) 646-9250
`
`Pursuant to agreement, before Debra Ann
`Whitehead, Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth
`of Virginia.
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`Transcript of George N. Rouskas, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`3
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S
`ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFF:
`DANIEL S. BLOCK, ESQUIRE
`STERNE, KESSLER, GOLDSTEIN & FOX, PLLC
`1100 New York Avenue, Northwest
`Washington, DC 20005
`(202) 371-2600
`
`ON BEHALF OF DEFENDANT:
`STEPHEN T. SCHREINER, ESQUIRE
`JAMES T. CARMICHAEL, ESQ.
`CARMICHAEL IP, PLLC
`8000 Towers Crescent Drive
`13th Floor
`Tysons Corner, Virginia 22182
`(703) 646-9250
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`Transcript of George N. Rouskas, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`Exhibit 2
`
`C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION OF GEORGE N. ROUSKAS, Ph.D.
`By Mr. Block
`By Mr. Schreiner
`By Mr. Block
`E X H I B I T S
`(Attached to the Transcript)
`ROUSKAS DEPOSITION EXHIBIT
`Exhibit 1
`Declaration of Professor
`George N. Rouskas, Ph.D.,
`IPR2019-00821, Patent 8,037,302
`Declaration of Professor
`George N. Rouskas, Ph.D.,
`IPR2019-00819, Patent 7,620,810
`Declaration of Professor
`George N. Rouskas, Ph.D,
`IPR2019-00820, Patent 7,937,581
`U.S. Patent No. 7,620,810
`U.S. Patent No. 8,037,302
`International Publication No.
`WO 01/54379
`
`Exhibit 3
`
`Exhibit 4
`Exhibit 5
`Exhibit 6
`
`4
`
`PAGE
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`203
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`PAGE
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`Transcript of George N. Rouskas, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`5
`
`P R O C E E D I N G S
`GEORGE N. ROUSKAS, Ph.D.,
`having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
`EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF
`BY MR. BLOCK:
`Q
`Good morning.
`A
`Good morning.
`Q
`Can you please state your full name, for
`the record.
`A
`George Rouskas.
`Q
`Welcome, Mr. Rouskas. I appreciate you
`coming under what I think we all recognize are
`trying circumstances.
`Have you ever had your deposition taken
`
`before?
`Yes.
`A
`And how many times have you had it taken?
`Q
`Four times before today.
`A
`Okay. Well, I know you have had it a
`Q
`couple of times before, but I am just going to go
`over a couple of quick ground rules today that
`will make this as smooth as possible.
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`Transcript of George N. Rouskas, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`6
`
`First of all, do you understand that you
`need to give your answers orally?
`A I understand.
`Q Okay. And it's really important that you
`wait to answer one of my questions until I finish
`my question. And likewise, I'll wait until you
`give an answer before I ask my next question so
`the court reporter can clearly take down what
`we're saying.
`Do you understand that?
`A I understand that.
`Q My job today is to ask you questions.
`Your job is to answer those questions. If you
`don't understand one of my questions, will you let
`me know?
`A I will let you know, yes.
`Q Okay. Otherwise, if you answer one of my
`questions, I'm going to assume that you understood
`it.
`
`Do you understand that?
`A I understand.
`Q Okay. This isn't a marathon, so I tend
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`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`7
`
`to take breaks about every hour or so. If you
`need a break before that, just let your counsel
`know or let me know. I'm more than happy to
`accommodate that.
`I only ask that if there is a question
`pending, that you answer that question before we
`take a break.
`Does that sound fair?
`Yes.
`A
`Is there any reason -- you understand you
`Q
`are here under oath today?
`A
`I understand that I am under oath, yes.
`Q
`And you understand that means you need to
`give true and complete testimony to the best of
`your ability?
`A
`Yes, I understand that.
`Q
`Is there any reason why you can't do that
`today?
`Not -- not that I know of.
`A
`Okay. What did you do to prepare for
`Q
`today's deposition?
`A
`I'm sorry. Can you repeat that?
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`Transcript of George N. Rouskas, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`8
`
` Q What did you do to prepare for today's
`deposition?
` MR. SCHREINER: I caution the witness not
`to divulge any -- the content of any
`communications between yourself and myself and
`other attorneys.
` A So in order to prepare for today's
`testimony I reviewed a number of documents, and
`these are listed in my Declaration.
` I also had meeting with Mr. Schreiner,
`you know, yesterday and the day before.
` Q And I am not asking you to divulge any
`conversations that you had with Mr. Schreiner.
` But how long approximately did you meet
`with Mr. Schreiner over those two days?
` A Let's see. So approximately six or seven
`hours a day.
` Q And were both those meetings in person?
` A Both meetings were in person, yes.
` Q And did you review any documents?
` A I reviewed documents, yes.
` Q And I think you had mentioned earlier
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`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`9
`
`those were the documents that were listed in your
`materials considered in your Declarations.
` Is that right?
` A That is right, yes.
` Q Were there any documents that you
`reviewed that were outside of those materials
`considered?
` A Not that I know of.
` Q Okay. I will give you one hint, because
`I bet you did review this document.
` Are you aware that the Board issued a
`decision called the Institution Decision? You
`don't actually -- strike that. I bet it wasn't
`listed in your materials considered because -- and
`we'll go through those in a second.
` A Okay.
` Q So apologies.
` MR. BLOCK: If we can mark this as
`Exhibit 1.
` (Rouskas Deposition Exhibit 1 marked for
`identification and is attached to the transcript.)
` Q Now, you understand that you are here
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`Transcript of George N. Rouskas, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`10
`
`today to testify regarding three Declarations that
`you submitted. Is that right?
` A Yeah, that is correct.
` Q And I just handed you one of those
`Declarations.
` First of all, do you recognize what has
`been marked as Exhibit 1 to your deposition?
` A Yes, I do recognize that.
` Q And this is the Declaration that you
`submitted in IPR2019-00821?
` A Yes, that is correct.
` Q And it relates to a patent which is U.S.
`Patent 8,037,302?
` A Yes, that's what it says.
` Q Okay. And if I refer to that patent as
`the '302 patent, will you understand that I'm
`referring to U.S. Patent 8,037,302?
` A Yes, I will understand that.
` Q Okay. And if I refer to this Declaration
`as your '302 Declaration, will you understand that
`I'm referring to Exhibit 1 of your deposition?
` A Yes, I will understand that.
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`Conducted on March 20, 2020
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`11
`
` Q I'd like you to turn to Paragraph 19 of
`your -- of Exhibit 1.
` A Yes.
` Q And right above Paragraph 19 of your '302
`Declaration, there's a section titled Bases of
`Opinions.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q And then this is a listing of the
`documents that you reviewed in forming your
`opinions for your '302 Declaration.
` Is that right?
` A It is. That is correct, yes.
` Q And these were -- at least some of these
`documents were the documents that you had reviewed
`in preparation for today's deposition.
` Is that right?
` A Yes, that is correct. Yes.
` Q Okay. In forming your opinions for the
`'302 Declaration, did you review any documents
`outside of those documents listed in Paragraph 19
`of your '302 Declaration?
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`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`12
`
` A No, I do not think so. I think this is
`all the material.
` MR. BLOCK: If we could mark this as
`Exhibit 2.
` (Rouskas Deposition Exhibit 2 marked for
`identification and is attached to the transcript.)
` Q I have handed you a document that's
`marked Exhibit 2 to today's deposition.
` Do you recognize this document?
` A I do.
` Q And this document has an exhibit number,
`which is 2003.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q And this is one of the Declarations that
`you submitted for the three cases we're here to
`talk about today. Right?
` A That is correct.
` Q And Exhibit 2 is a Declaration that
`relates to IPR2019-00819. Is that right?
` A Yes, that's what I see in the document.
` Q And that Declaration, Exhibit 2, relates
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`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`13
`
`to a patent, which is U.S. Patent 7,620,810.
` Is that right?
` A That is correct, yes.
` Q And if I refer to U.S. Patent 7,620,810
`as the '810 patent, will you understand that I'm
`referring to the U.S. Patent 7,620,810?
` A Yes, I will understand that.
` Q And if I refer to Exhibit 2 as your '810
`Declaration, will you understand that I am in fact
`referring to this Declaration that's in front of
`you, Exhibit 2?
` A I understand that.
` Q Okay. If we could turn to Paragraph 19
`of this Declaration.
` And just like your '302 Declaration,
`exhibit -- Paragraph 19 is under a section
`entitled Bases of Opinions.
` Is that right?
` A That is correct.
` Q And in Paragraph 19 of your '810
`Declaration, you list the materials that you
`considered in forming your opinions.
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`Conducted on March 20, 2020
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`14
`
` Is that right?
` A That is correct.
` Q Were there any documents in forming your
`opinions that you set forth in your '810
`Declaration that you reviewed that are not listed
`in Paragraph 19?
` A I do not think so. I think this is a
`complete list.
` MR. BLOCK: Okay. Can you mark this as
`Exhibit 3.
` (Rouskas Deposition Exhibit 3 marked for
`identification and is attached to the transcript.)
` Q I have handed you an exhibit that's
`marked Exhibit 3.
` Do you recognize this document?
` A I do.
` Q And this document, Exhibit 3, also bears
`a different exhibit number, which is 2009.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes, I see that.
` Q And this Exhibit 3 is one of the
`Declarations that we're here to talk about today.
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`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`15
`
`Right?
` A Yes, that is correct.
` Q And Exhibit 3 relates to an
`IPR2019-00820?
` A Yes.
` Q And Exhibit 3 relates to a U.S. patent
`number, which is U.S. Patent 7,937,581.
` Is that right?
` A Yes, that's the patent.
` Q Okay. And if I refer to U.S. Patent
`7,937,581 as the '581 patent, you'll understand
`that I'm referring to U.S. Patent 7,937,581?
` A I understand that.
` Q Okay. And if I refer to this
`Declaration, Exhibit 3, as the '581 Declaration,
`you'll understand that I'm referring to Exhibit 3.
`Right?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Let's turn to Paragraph 19.
` And Paragraph 19 of your '581 Declaration
`is under a section titled Bases of Opinions.
` Is that right?
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`Transcript of George N. Rouskas, Ph.D.
`Conducted on March 20, 2020
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`16
`
` A Yes, that's correct.
` Q And Paragraph 19 lists the documents that
`you considered in forming your opinions in the
`'581 Declaration. Is that right?
` A Yes.
` Q Did you consider any other documents in
`forming your opinions in the '581 Declaration,
`besides those that are listed in Paragraph 19?
` MR. SCHREINER: I'd like to lodge an
`objection that this line of questioning is vague
`and ambiguous. It has the potential to be
`confusing to Dr. Rouskas.
` The passage you're referring to in
`Paragraph 19 states, at least the documents listed
`below.
` And his Declaration certainly addresses
`other documents. Just to give a couple of
`examples, the Frankel -- the Frankel texts, RFC
`1122, and other documents that were discussed in
`his Declaration.
` So I just want to avoid Dr. Rouskas being
`confused by the question.
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`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`17
`
` MR. BLOCK: Counsel, I think you
`appreciate there are no speaking objections in
`these proceedings. And that was certainly a
`speaking objection. I would advise you not to do
`that, or we are going to have to call the Board.
` MR. SCHREINER: I disagree with you. And
`you can proceed as you wish with regard to the
`Board.
` MR. BLOCK: Well, I'll ask my question
`again.
`BY MR. BLOCK:
` Q Were there any materials that you
`considered outside of those listed in Paragraph 19
`in forming your opinions for the '581 Declaration?
` MR. SCHREINER: Same objection.
` A So I certainly reviewed all this
`material. I see here that my Declaration says
`that I have reviewed at least the material that is
`listed here.
` Now I cannot recall, you know, if I have,
`you know, any specific other material that I may
`have reviewed; but, it may be possible. And so,
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`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`18
`
`for instance -- let's see. So for instance, you
`know, while looking at, you know, RFC 2401 or RFC
`2002, I may have looked at other documents; for
`instance, some of the other RFC that refer to
`IPSec.
` But I may -- you know, if I -- so by
`reviewing -- or by looking at, not necessarily
`reviewing the whole document.
` Q So did any of these unlisted documents in
`your Bases of Opinions contribute to forming your
`opinions for the '581 Declaration?
` MR. SCHREINER: Object. Object to form.
` A I do not believe so. I think that if a
`documents contributed to my opinions, I would have
`listed it here.
` What I'm trying to say is that, I may
`have looked at other documents as I was doing my
`research.
` Q But sitting here today, you can't recall
`any of those other documents you might have looked
`at. Is that fair?
` A I don't -- I do not recall. It's been
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`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`19
`
`almost three months.
` Q Let's turn back to your '810 Declaration,
`and specifically Paragraph 22.
` And Paragraph 22 is listed under a
`section in your '810 Declaration entitled Ordinary
`Skill in the Art.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q And here at the end of Paragraph 22 you
`state that you've been asked to employ the
`standard of person of ordinary skill in the art
`that Dr. Goldschlag set forth in his Declaration.
` Is that right?
` MR. SCHREINER: Object. Objection.
`Form.
` A That is right, that's what is stated
`here, yes.
` Q And do you agree with the standard of
`ordinary skill in the art that Dr. Goldschlag has
`set forth in the '810 Declaration?
` A So I agree. The one thing that I would
`note at this point is that, you know, the
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`Conducted on March 20, 2020
`
`20
`
`requirements of at least two to five years of
`academic or industry experience makes this kind of
`open. And I would consider that with, you know,
`the same requirements, but some -- without the
`term at least.
` So two to five years of -- of academic or
`industry experience, without the at least.
` Q I see. Okay. I guess is -- I'm trying
`to understand the distinction you're drawing there
`between at least two to five years and two to five
`years without the at least.
` Are you suggesting that somebody who has
`more than five years of academic or industry
`experience in computer network security would not
`be a person of ordinary skill in the art?
` A No, that is not what I'm saying. I'm
`saying that the at least makes it look like that
`someone with two to five years may not be someone
`of skill in the art.
` Q I see. Okay. All right.
` Do you believe that a person of ordinary
`skill in the art in the '810 patent would have a
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`21
`
`working understanding of IPSec?
` A They would --
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection. Calls for
`testimony outside the scope of his Declaration.
` A Could you please repeat the question?
` Q Yes. Do you believe that a person of
`ordinary skill in the art for the '810 patent
`would have a working understanding of IPSec?
` A The --
` MR. SCHREINER: Excuse me. Excuse me.
`Same objection.
` A A person of ordinary skill in the arts
`would have a working understanding of IPSec, yes.
` Q Okay. If we could turn to your '302
`Declaration.
` And the -- in Paragraph 23 of your '302
`Declaration, which is the -- which again is under
`the section entitled Ordinary Skill in the Art.
` Is that right?
` A Yes, that is correct.
` Q And here you set forth your own
`understanding of the person of ordinary skill in
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`the art in Paragraph 23 of your '302 Declaration.
` Is that right?
` A That is correct, yes.
` Q In other words, for your '302 Declaration
`you disagree with what Dr. Goldschlag has set
`forth in his Declaration for person of ordinary
`skill in the art.
` Is that right?
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection. Form.
` A Yes, that's right. Because in my other
`Declaration, I agreed to work with that particular
`definition of a person that is skilled in the
`arts. I have included the same definition or
`requirements here.
` Q And just so we're clear, in your '302
`Declaration you included the at least two to five
`years?
` A That is correct, yes.
` Q So in other words, I just want to make
`sure I'm clear on this.
` The reason why you disagree with Dr.
`Goldschlag's definition for the '302 proceeding is
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`because it's not the same as what was set forth in
`the '810 proceeding.
` Is that fair?
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection. Vague and
`ambiguous.
` A Yes. He has proposed a different
`definition for the three patents.
` Q And you think it should be the same?
` A I believe it should be the same, yes.
` Q All right. Sticking with your '302
`Declaration. If we could turn to Paragraph 43.
` And in Paragraph 43 you discuss at least
`what the RFC describes as the fundamental features
`and processes of IPSec.
` Is that right?
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection. Form.
` A Yes. So in Paragraph 43 I cite passages
`from RFC 2401 that describe some of the main
`features of IPSec.
` Q Okay. So I'd like to understand a little
`bit about how IPSec operates at a high level. And
`so I understand it's pretty complicated, so bear
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`with me while we do this.
` Listed in Paragraph 43, sort of under
`Element A, is something called an authentication
`header and an encapsulating security payload.
` Do you see that?
` A I see that, yes.
` Q What is the authentication header in
`IPSec, just at a high level?
` A So the authentication header in IPSec is
`one of the two security protocols that are
`supported.
` Q Is the other security protocol, then,
`encapsulating security payload?
` A The other security protocol is
`encapsulating security payload, yes.
` Q What's the difference between the AH and
`the ESP?
` A So the AH protocol only provides
`authentication, not encryption. But the
`encapsulating security payloads provides
`encryption.
` Q And just to make sure the record is
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`clear. AH is authentication header. ESP is
`encapsulating security payload.
` Is that right?
` A That is correct, yes.
` Q Okay. And so you mentioned that the AH
`provides authentication.
` Is that right?
` A Yes.
` Q What exactly is authentication, and how
`is that different than encryption?
` A Yes. So encryption provides
`confidentiality. So confidentiality is the
`property that, if someone submits a message and
`the message is encrypted, then no one can read the
`contents of the message unless they have the
`encryption or decryption key.
` So that is the -- that's the
`encapsulating -- that's one of the services that
`the encapsulating security payloads provides.
` Now, the authentication header is -- so
`the authentication header protocol does not
`provide that. So what it provides is the property
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`of message integrity. Which basically says that
`the message can be transmitted in the clear, and
`so others who may have access to the message may
`actually read the contents of the message.
` But the authentication header provides
`the property that the message has not been altered
`in its transmission.
` Q Does every IPSec packet that's
`transmitted have both an authentication header and
`an encapsulating security payload?
` A Not necessarily.
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection. Form.
` Are we talking about today or the date of
`the invention?
` MR. BLOCK: Any time.
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection. Vague and
`ambiguous.
` A Not necessarily.
` Q So there are IPSec packets at any given
`point in time that could have just had an ESP.
` Is that right?
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection. Vague and
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`ambiguous.
` A Yes, an IPSec packet may only have an ESP
`header.
` Q And likewise, an IPSec packet might only
`have an AH header.
` Is that right?
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection to form. Vague
`and ambiguous.
` A Yes, there can be IPSec packets that have
`only the authentication header.
` Q And there might be IPSec packets that
`have both an authentication header and an
`encapsulated security payload.
` Is that right?
` A That's --
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection. Make sure you
`pause before you answer the question, please.
` Objection. Form. Vague and ambiguous.
`This entire line of questioning is untied to any
`point in time.
` And I object on the basis that the
`questions are not specifying whether it's as of
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`the date of the invention or as of practice today.
`And so this has the potential to thoroughly
`confuse the witness and the record.
` MR. BLOCK: Counsel, once again, I'll
`remind you not to give any speaking objections or
`narratives, like you just did. Those are plainly
`against the rules of the PTAB.
` And if you continue down this path, I am
`going to stop this deposition and we are going to
`go to the PTAB, we are going to go to the Board.
` MR. SCHREINER: That's fine. You can
`easily cure this by asking your question in a
`manner that ties it to a point in time.
` MR. BLOCK: I'll reask my question.
` Q So there may be IPSec packets that have
`both authentication headers and encapsulating
`security payloads. Is that right?
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection. Vague and
`ambiguous. Not tied to any point in time.
` A That is my understanding, yes.
` Q And just to indulge your counsel.
` At any point in time would your answer
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`have changed based on what time we're talking
`about?
` A I do not believe so.
` Q So why would a person use an
`authentication header instead of an encapsulating
`security payload?
` A Because, for instance, you may not
`necessarily care about the confidentiality of the
`message, but you do care whether the message was
`altered.
` An example would be a contract. You want
`to make sure that -- you don't care, you know,
`about the contents of the contracts; but, you want
`to make sure that nothing in the contracts has
`been changed.
` Q And I am curious, though. So if the
`encapsulating security payload is encrypted,
`wouldn't that necessarily provide the same
`functionality as the authentication header?
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection. Form.
` A If it is encrypted, it -- not
`necessarily.
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` Q I guess what I'm -- what I'm asking is,
`if it's encrypted, certainly if someone modified
`it, you would know. Right? Because you wouldn't
`be able to decrypt it. Right?
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection. Form.
` A That is correct. But the authentication
`header covers not just, you know, the payloads of
`the message. But, it also covers parts of the
`header of the message that do not change; for
`example, the source and destination addresses.
`And, therefore, you know that the message has not
`been altered at all.
` Q Now, do you have any personal experience
`using IPSec?
` A I have used IPSec in some of my research
`projects, yes.
` Q And have you configured IPSec?
` A I --
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection. Vague and
`ambiguous.
` A I have not configured IPSec myself.
`Usually my research projects, I employ research
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`assistants, students who, you know, do the actual
`programming.
` Q Maybe you can -- in these instances where
`you've used IPSec, can you elaborate a little bit
`about what those related to?
` A Yes. Absolutely.
` So, for instance, we had a project
`with -- it was funded by NSA. And the project
`involved a new protocol for optical switching.
`And it was important to authenticate the messages
`that were sent, the control messages for that
`particular protocol. So we used authentication
`for the message -- the control messages that were
`sent.
` More recently we had projects funded by
`the NSF. That project was about creating a new
`economic plane for the internet. And, you know,
`to enable fine grain -- fine grain economic
`transactions. And so those messages had to be
`encrypted. So we used, you know, IPSec mode to
`accomplish that.
` Q Do you consider yourself an expert in how
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`IPSec operates and functions?
` A I -- yes, I do.
` Q So as an expert in how IPSec operates and
`functions, would you say that most people use
`IPSec with ESP headers, as opposed to AH headers?
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection.
` Caution the witness not to speculate.
` A I do not know that particular answer. I
`mean, IPSec is used very widely. And so I do not
`fit my, you know, view into how people use it.
` Q Are you familiar with the term virtual
`private network?
` A I am familiar with virtual private
`networks, yes.
` Q And that's commonly referred to as a VPN.
`Right?
` A Yes.
` Q Does IPSec have any relation to VPNs?
` MR. SCHREINER: Objection. Form.
` A It doesn't have a relation with VPNs. It
`is just that VPNs are not -- are usually
`implemented using IPSec.
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` Q And so for these VPNs that are usually
`implemented using IPSec, would they use an ESP or
`an AH?
` A Typically they would use ESP.
` Q Would you say that VPNs is the most
`common use of IPSec?
` A IPSec has many uses. And, I mean, that
`would, you know, require me to speculate about,
`you know, how frequently IPSec used in different
`forms.
` But what I can say is that VPN is -- are
`almost ubiquitous.
` Q So if VPNs are ubiquitous, would you say
`IPSec is ubiquitous as well?
` A In -- in use with VPNs, yes.
` Q So certainly a person of ordinary skill
`in the art would have understood that IPSec could
`be used for VPNs at the time of the '810 patent's
`earliest priority date.
` Is that right?
` A Yes, IPSec was used for VPNs at the
`priority date of the '810 patent.
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` Q But not just that it was used. A person
`of ordinary skill in the art would have understood
`that IPSec could be used with VPNs at the earliest
`priority date of the '810 patent.
` Is that right?
` A A person of ordinary skill in the art
`would understood that IPSec are -- was used in
`connection with VPNs at that time.
` Q And same question for the '302 patent.
` Would a person of ordinary skill in the
`art have unders
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