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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`--------------------------------X
`MODERNA THERAPEUTICS, INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
` No. IPR 2018-00680
` VS. No. IPR2018-00739
`
`PROTIVA BIOTHERAPEUTICS, INC.,
`
` Patent Owner.
`--------------------------------X
`
` DEPOSITION
` OF
` ANDREW S. JANOFF
` Friday, April 5, 2019
` 102 Carnegie Center
` Princeton, New Jersey
`
`Reported by:
`AYLETTE GONZALEZ, RPR, CLR, CCR
`JOB NO. 158747
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`ARBUTUS - EXHIBIT 2002
`Moderna Therapeutics, Inc. v. Arbutus Biopharma Corporation
`IPR2019-00554
`
`
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`--------------------------------X
`MODERNA THERAPEUTICS, INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
` No. IPR 2018-00680
` VS. No. IPR2018-00739
`
`PROTIVA BIOTHERAPEUTICS, INC.,
`
` Patent Owner.
`--------------------------------X
`
` DEPOSITION
` OF
` ANDREW S. JANOFF
` Friday, April 5, 2019
` 102 Carnegie Center
` Princeton, New Jersey
`
`Reported by:
`AYLETTE GONZALEZ, RPR, CLR, CCR
`JOB NO. 158747
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`ARBUTUS - EXHIBIT 2002
`Moderna Therapeutics, Inc. v. Arbutus Biopharma Corporation
`IPR2019-00554
`
`
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`Page 2
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` DATE: April 5, 2019
` TIME: 10:00 a.m.
`
` Deposition of ANDREW S. JANOFF,
`held at the offices of Hyatt Regency
`Princeton, 102 Carnegie Center, Princeton,
`New Jersey 08540, pursuant to NOTICE,
`before AYLETTE GONZALEZ, a Registered
`Professional Reporter, Certified LiveNote
`Reporter, Certified Court Reporter and
`Notary Public of the States of New York and
`New Jersey.
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`A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
`IRELL & MANELLA
`Counsel for Petitioner
` 1800 Avenue of the Stars
` Los Angles, California 90067
`BY: MACLAIN WELLS, ESQ.
`
`WILSON SONSINI GOODRICH & ROSATI
`Counsel for Patent Owner
` 701 Fifth Avenue
` Seattle, Washington 98104
`BY: MICHAEL ROSATO, ESQ.
`
`BY: LORA GREEN, JD, Ph.D.
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` A N D R E W S. J A N O F F,
` called as a witness, having been
` duly sworn by a Notary Public,
` was examined and testified as
` follows:
` EXAMINATION BY
` MR. ROSATO:
` Q. Good morning, Dr. Janoff.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Could you please state your full
`name for the record.
` A. Andrew S. Janoff.
` MR. ROSATO: And while we're at
` it, let's make appearances.
` Mike Rosato at Wilson Sonsini on
` behalf of Patent Owner, Protiva.
` MS. GREEN: Lora Green, Wilson
` Sonsini.
` MR. WELLS: Maclain Wells of
` Irell & Manella on behalf of
` Petitioner.
` BY MR. ROSATO:
` Q. Dr. Janoff, you were previously
`deposed in this case, so you have some idea
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`how depositions work. That being said, let's
`quickly go through a few of the ground rules
`just as a brief reminder.
` First, you understand that you're
`providing testimony under oath and you're
`expected to tell the truth?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Is there any reason that you cannot
`provide complete and accurate testimony today?
` A. No.
` Q. And do recall if you don't
`understand a question, you can ask me for
`clarification rather than the gentleman
`sitting beside you?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And unless you tell me otherwise,
`I'll assume that you understand the question.
`Okay?
` A. That's fine.
` Q. And remember to please provide
`verbal answers to questions rather than
`nodding or shaking heads so the court reporter
`can pick up the response.
` A. Yes.
`
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
` Q. And of course we can take a break
`if you need one, just let me know. And we'll
`take a break as long as there's not a question
`pending. If there's a question pending, we'll
`address that question before breaking. Does
`that all sound good?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. Now you recently filed three
`new declarations in the two IPR cases filed by
`Moderna, correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And one case is IPR 2018-00680
`challenging Patent 9,404,127. Do you recall
`that?
` A. That seems correct, yes.
` Q. And the other IPR is IPR 2018-00739
`challenging Patent 9,364,435. Does that sound
`right?
` A. The patent numbers I recognize,
`yes.
` Q. Okay. And I may refer to these as
`the '127 case and the '435 patent case
`respectively. Okay?
` A. Yes.
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
` Q. I'm going to hand you a copy of
`Exhibit 1021.
` Do you recognize this document?
` A. Yes. Just give me a chance to look
`at this.
` Yes.
` Q. What is this document?
` A. This is one of the documents that
`you referred to. I'm responding to the '435.
` Q. This is the "Declaration of
`Andrew S. Janoff, Ph.D., in Support of Moderna
`Therapeutics Petitioner's Reply to Patent
`Owner's Response," correct?
` A. That's what it says on the face of
`it, yes.
` Q. While we're at it, let me hand you
`a copy of Exhibit 1022.
` Do you recognize this document?
` A. This is my declaration in support
`of Moderna Therapeutics Petitioner's
`Opposition to the contingent -- the Patent
`Owner's Contingent Motion to Amend.
` Q. Great.
` What did you do to prepare for
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`today's deposition, Dr. Janoff?
` A. Could you -- I'm not sure I
`understand that question.
` Q. Did you prepare for today's
`deposition?
` A. Yes. I reviewed this case with
`counsel yesterday, but I've been working on
`this for a good long time, so I think you can
`count all of that as preparation, if that's
`what you mean. I'm not sure I know what you
`mean. I mean, if you're asking did I
`specifically talk to counsel about today, I
`did that yesterday for, I don't know, five
`hours, four hours, six hours, something like
`that.
` Q. Okay. And by "counsel," you're
`referring to Mr. Wells?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you do anything else to
`prepare?
` A. Well, I've read -- I wrote the
`documents, I reviewed these documents, I
`signed the documents. These opinions are my
`opinions. I reviewed the necessary documents
`
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`that are cited in here to come to those
`opinions, thought about this case. I'm not
`sure I understand the question.
` Q. You say you reviewed the necessary
`documents; and you're referring to the
`documents that are cited in the declarations?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Did you review any documents that
`weren't cited in the declarations in
`preparation for today's deposition?
` A. I don't -- I don't think so.
` Q. Okay. And you mentioned you wrote
`the declarations. Describe the process of
`preparing your declarations.
` A. Well, first of all, the opinions in
`these declarations are my opinions. I
`discussed the case with counsel. And then
`there was an iterative process of getting this
`in the form to file that took place. And I
`reviewed the final copies under my signature
`where I say that these are my opinions and
`they are all my opinions.
` Q. You said you wrote the declaration.
`You also said it was an iterative process.
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`What do you mean by that?
` A. Well, I had help with some of the
`legal aspects. Some of the writing of the
`document was collaborative with counsel, but
`there's nothing in here that doesn't represent
`my opinion. And some of the legal words may
`have been written by counsel, but only after
`it was explained to me and discussed.
` So the writing of the documents was
`collaborative. I didn't go off into a cave
`and write them and sign them. It was
`collaborative with counsel, but I ensured that
`every word and all of the opinions and
`conclusions that are represented here are
`mine.
` Q. How much time approximately do you
`think you spent drafting Exhibit 1021?
` A. What's 1021? What's 1021? I see
`it. I see it. I'm just looking for the
`number on the right-hand side. I don't know.
`We can go back and look, I keep track of my
`time. But I can't -- sitting here today, I
`can't tell you exactly how much time.
` Q. Can you estimate how much time?
`
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
` MR. WELLS: Objection to form.
` A. It's --
` MR. WELLS: Objection to form.
` A. Hours, not minutes. And hours
`over -- over a period of days. I'm not sure
`that I spent the entire day on it, but over
`the period of weeks, I spent significant
`amount of time. But I can't -- I mean, I keep
`track of my time so we can look that up if we
`need to. But I -- sitting here today, I can't
`really recall.
` Q. More than ten hours?
` MR. WELLS: Objection to form.
` A. I feel more comfortable looking up
`the time, but ten hours doesn't sound
`incorrect.
` Q. Do you think that's an
`overestimation of the time?
` A. Well, we can go around and around.
`I just don't know. So I don't feel
`comfortable at all telling you how much time
`when I know we can go back and look at -- look
`for that time because I keep track of my time.
`So if that's an important -- that's important
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`for these proceedings, we can do that and I
`can go back and look and I can give you an
`accurate answer. I don't feel comfortable
`estimating because I work on this case -- I
`worked on other cases maybe at the same time.
`I do other things, a significant amount of
`time. Thought about that in a significant
`way.
` And as I said, I'm comfortable with
`the opinions as they're presented, they're all
`mine. But I can't tell you the exact amount
`of time. We'd have to go back and look. And
`if it's important, we can do that.
` MR. WELLS: Objection.
` Q. Well, any question I ask you, you
`can assume it's an important question.
` A. Okay. Well, then how -- could we
`break and I'll go back and look at my records
`and come back and give you an answer?
` Q. I'm just asking for an estimation.
` MR. WELLS: Objection to form.
` A. I don't feel comfortable
`estimating. Hours sounds right. Ten hours
`sounds like it may be in the ballpark. Maybe
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`more than that. I don't think it's less than
`that. But I don't feel comfortable
`estimating. That's why I keep track of time.
` Q. What materials were you asked to
`review in the course of preparing these
`declarations?
` A. Well, the materials that I reviewed
`are cited in these declarations as exhibits.
`So we can go through these declarations and
`look at the exhibits. And if an exhibit is
`cited, I looked at that exhibit, so I think --
`let me see how to answer this more accurately
`for you.
` I reviewed those documents that are
`cited in these -- that are cited in -- I'm
`just looking for the number of these exhibits.
`So where is the number? Is it in the lower
`right-hand side? So this is -- is this
`correct to say, this is '0039 and '00739? No,
`that's not correct.
` Q. One is Exhibit 1021. The other is
`Exhibit 1022.
` A. Okay. So I reviewed the documents
`cited in these two exhibits.
`
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
` Q. And those are the materials you
`reviewed in preparing these declarations?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Were there any materials that you
`were asked to review that are not in these
`documents?
` A. I can't -- I don't recall. I can't
`say for sure. There may be ancillary
`documents because this has to do with my field
`and I may have looked at just some of those
`documents. But if they're not cited in here,
`I didn't -- they're not necessary to form the
`opinions that are formed in here. The
`opinions that are formed in here rely on the
`documents that are cited here.
` Q. Were you asked to conduct any
`experimentation in the course of preparing
`your declarations?
` A. In the course of preparing these
`declarations?
` Q. Yes.
` A. No.
` Q. Did you conduct any experimentation
`in the course of preparing these declarations?
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
` A. These declarations? This and this
`(indicating)?
` Q. Yes.
` A. No.
` Q. Are you aware of any experimental
`testing conducted specifically for these IPRs?
` MR. WELLS: Objection; scope.
` A. Can you clarify that question?
` Q. Were you aware of any experimental
`testing that was prepared specifically in the
`course of these IPRs?
` MR. WELLS: Objection; scope.
` A. Well, I'm aware that Hayes
`performed experimentations. Is that what you
`mean?
` Q. Besides Dr. Hayes's
`experimentation, are you aware of any testing
`Moderna conducted specifically for the
`purposes of these IPRs?
` MR. WELLS: Objection; scope.
` A. Which IPRs?
` Q. The '127 IPR and the '435 patent
`IPR.
` A. Well, I believe that last time we
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`were together you asked me whether there was
`any experimentation that I performed
`concerning the '127, and the answer was no.
`Now, you're asking is there experimentation
`performed that might include the '435?
` Q. Either case.
` A. Well --
` MR. WELLS: Objection; scope.
` A. -- the answer concerning '127 is
`the answer. I've already given that answer.
` Concerning '435, we did try to do
`some experimentation involving mRNA using the
`disclosures in '435, which are siRNA
`disclosures. So we did attempt some testing.
`And this was done in Frank Fasilica's
`laboratory with respect to mRNA and some of
`the protocols that were described in the '435.
` Q. When you say "we conducted
`experimentation," who are you referring to?
` MR. WELLS: Objection; scope.
` A. Well, as I said, the
`experimentation was done by Frank Fasilica,
`not in his academic lab, but in a company he
`has or had. I'm not even sure if the company
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`stands now. I believe it was called Zone 1
`and he and I, he following my directions and
`guidance, used the protocols described in
`'435, but -- but used mRNA rather than siRNA
`in order to -- in order to repeat or try to
`repeat some of those results.
` Q. And you said that was at your
`direction?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So you directed those experiments?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Was Moderna involved in that
`process?
` MR. WELLS: Objection; form,
` scope.
` A. Counsel was involved. I discussed
`with counsel what it was that we were doing,
`but I have not yet discussed anything with
`Moderna. I don't even know -- I'm not even
`familiar with the management of Moderna.
` Q. You haven't discussed the results
`of that experimentation with Moderna?
` MR. WELLS: Objection; form,
` scope.
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
` A. I discussed the outcome of some of
`that work with counsel, but we were unable
`to -- we were unable to find protocol -- any
`protocol that we could rely on that was
`reproducible, so the data was not useful to
`us. We spent probably $100,000 and probably
`three or four months and we couldn't repeat or
`come up with anything that I could stand
`behind. We couldn't work out the difficulties
`that we were facing because -- likely because
`we were using mRNA. And so we were in terra
`incognita, and so we stopped.
` And so I wouldn't say that there
`were -- I would say that there were no
`conclusions that we were able to draw because
`we made the decision to stop spending the
`money and stop spending the time. None of the
`data that was generated was reliable.
` Q. And none of that data is discussed
`in either of your declarations, correct?
` A. No, it's not.
` Q. In the course of preparing your
`declarations, were you asked to compare any
`Moderna technology to the claims of the '435
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`patent?
` MR. WELLS: Objection; scope.
` A. I'm hesitating because I'm not sure
`what you exactly mean by that. What do you
`mean by compare Moderna technology in the
`'435? It discusses siRNA. There is a
`reference to mRNA in '435, which would be the
`technology that Moderna has in hand. But in
`order to understand whether the '435 enabled
`mRNA would have required, I think, extensive
`experimentation because mRNA is quite
`different than siRNA. And so the technologies
`are very different here.
` The technologies described in '435
`and the protocols and the examples all center
`around siRNA in order to know whether this
`would be applicable to something completely
`different. And that's -- mRNA would require
`an awful lot of experimentation in terms of --
` Q. You're giving a speech on a
`different topic. Let me repeat my question.
` MR. WELLS: Objection to form.
` Objection for interrupting the
` witness's answer.
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
` MR. ROSATO: He stopped talking.
` MR. WELLS: I don't believe he was
` done.
` MR. ROSATO: We're sitting here.
` He's still not speaking.
` A. I wasn't done, but I can stop. I
`wasn't done. Go ahead and ask a question.
` Q. In the course of preparing your
`declarations, were you asked to compare any
`Moderna technology to the claims of the '435
`patent?
` A. I don't understand that question.
`What do you mean by "compare Moderna
`technology"? If you could describe to me what
`you mean by "Moderna technology," I can answer
`the question. If you could -- you could
`describe what you mean by Moderna technology.
`I don't know what you mean by that, so I don't
`know what the comparisons would be. If you
`give me an example of what a comparison would
`be, I could tell you whether we did it or not.
` Q. You reviewed the claims, the '435
`patent, correct?
` A. Of course.
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
` Q. So you have an understanding of
`what those claims encompass, correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. With that understanding, with what
`those claims encompass, did you review whether
`those claims encompass any Moderna technology?
` MR. WELLS: Objection to form.
` You can answer that yes or no.
` A. I don't know what you mean did I
`review Moderna technology.
` Q. I asked you if you compared any
`Moderna technology to the claims of the '435
`patent?
` MR. WELLS: Objection to form.
` A. I don't know what you mean by
`"compare." I mean, most of the claims and
`specifications in the '435 have to do with
`siRNA. I'm aware that there is -- I believe
`we can look at the patent, but I believe
`without looking at the patent and without
`looking at it, I recall that there might have
`been a claim to mRNA.
` I think that -- I also recall that
`there was a board decision involving a '910
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`patent where the board concluded that mRNA was
`completely different than siRNA and any -- any
`descriptions of siRNA are not applicable to
`mRNA because mRNA is a completely different
`chemical entity.
` Q. We'll get to this convoluted theory
`about, you know, different cases and different
`board decisions. I'm actually asking a
`different question.
` MR. WELLS: Objection to form.
` A. I'm not -- "convoluted" is your
`term, not mine. And I still don't know what
`you mean by "compare." Did I do any
`experimentation? I don't know what you mean
`by "compare." Give me an example of what you
`mean of what -- what a comparison would be.
` Q. Did you evaluate whether any
`Moderna technology fell within the scope of
`the '435 patent claims?
` MR. WELLS: Objection; scope and
` potential attorney-client privileged
` information.
` You can answer that yes or no.
` A. Ask the question again.
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
` Q. Did you evaluate whether any
`Moderna technology fell within the scope of
`the '435 patent claims?
` MR. WELLS: Objection; scope,
` potential attorney-client privileged
` information.
` You can answer that yes or no.
` A. I'm sorry, ask the question one
`more time because I'm having trouble with
`"evaluate."
` Q. Did you evaluate -- sorry. Go
`ahead.
` A. Go on.
` Q. Did you evaluate whether any
`Moderna technology fell within the scope of
`the '435 patent claims?
` MR. WELLS: Objection; scope,
` potential attorney-client privileged
` information.
` You can answer that yes or no.
` A. Yes.
` Q. In the course of preparing your
`declarations, were you asked to compare any
`lipid particle composition used by Moderna to
`
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`the claim of the '435 patent?
` MR. WELLS: You can answer that
` yes or no.
` As well as potential
` attorney-client privileged information
` and scope objections.
` A. Ask the question again.
` Q. In the course of preparing your
`declarations, were you asked to compare any
`lipid particle composition used by Moderna to
`the claims of the '435 patent?
` A. I don't recall.
` Q. Did you discuss in your
`declarations whether any Moderna technology
`was encompassed by the claims of the '435
`patent?
` A. Can I have a chance to just have a
`look at this?
` Q. Of course.
` A. And we're looking at both of these
`documents?
` Q. I'll direct my question to
`Exhibit 1021.
` A. Okay. So I'm sorry, 1021. Where
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`am I finding these numbers? 1021 is the --
` MR. WELLS: Do you mind if I
` indicate to the witness?
` MR. ROSATO: You can help.
` MR. WELLS: 1021, it's right
` there.
` THE WITNESS: All right.
` A. So just give me a moment to -- and
`ask the question again. I'm sorry.
` Q. You had indicated that you have
`reviewed some Moderna technology and compared
`it to the claims. Do you recall that?
` A. Was that the answer that I answered
`"yes"?
` Q. That's what I'm referring to, yes.
`Do you recall that?
` A. I recall that. I'm confused about
`this line of questioning as comparison,
`because I'm not sure I know exactly what you
`mean.
` Q. My second question is, did you
`discuss that comparison in your declaration?
` A. Okay. Well, let's -- in the '435
`declaration, I'm relying on the number of the
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`exhibits that are cited here.
` Ask the question again. Did I --
`ask the question again, please.
` Q. You had indicated that you did
`review Moderna technology and compare it to
`the '435 patent claims, right?
` MR. WELLS: Objection; scope,
` form.
` A. I didn't -- I don't recall
`reviewing any Moderna patents, if that's what
`you mean by "technology."
` Q. What about Moderna publications?
` A. Well, I reviewed publications where
`some of the Moderna inventors are -- were
`authors of publications. I don't know whether
`that makes those publications Moderna
`technology.
` Q. And of the publications you're
`referring to, are any of those --
` A. I'm confused. I'm sorry. I'm
`confused.
` The publications that I reviewed
`were basically Protiva publications with
`authors that were on Protiva patents. I'm not
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`sure I recall reviewing papers that were
`Moderna papers or Moderna patents.
` Q. Okay.
` A. As I sit here today, I mean, I can
`go look. But just as I sit here right now,
`I'm not sure that I recall.
` Q. You don't recall reviewing any of
`the such publications?
` A. I reviewed Moderna's petitions and
`responses in this case. I reviewed the
`experts' -- your experts' opinions.
` Q. I'm talking about journal articles,
`patents.
` A. Specifically Moderna patents and
`journal articles?
` Q. Yes.
` A. That's what you mean by "Moderna
`technology"?
` Q. That's what I mean by Moderna
`publications.
` A. Well, before you said "Moderna
`technology."
` Q. I did. And subsequently I said
`"Moderna publications," so that's what I'm
`
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`asking about now.
` A. I reviewed so many things and we
`can take the time to look through this.
` Q. I think you answered the question.
`You indicated you had not?
` A. I don't -- I said I don't recall.
` Q. Okay. That's okay.
` A. As I sit here today, I might have,
`but I don't recall.
` Q. Okay. Can you turn to paragraph 12
`of Exhibit 1021 and let me know when you're
`there.
` MR. WELLS: That's Exhibit 1021.
` Mike, the witness has -- his
` eyesight is not that great. Do you
` mind if I write "1021" and "1022" on
` the top, if that's okay with you?
` MR. ROSATO: No problem.
` MR. WELLS: I'm just going to
` write "1021" in big letters so that
` it's easy to identify.
` A. So you want me to look at
`paragraph 12, 1021?
` Q. Yes. Let me know when you're
`
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`there.
` A. It starts "I reserve the right"?
` Q. Correct.
` A. Yes, I'm there.
` Q. As you indicate, you say you
`reserve the right to supplement your opinions,
`correct?
` A. That's what it says, yes. That's
`what I said, yes.
` Q. Did you include that as an
`indication that there's a deficiency in your
`declaration?
` A. No.
` Q. Do you think that there's any
`deficiency in your declaration?
` A. As I sit here today, no.
` Q. Okay. Let me hand you a copy of
`Exhibit 1006.
` MR. WELLS: I'm just going to
` write in big letters on the top, the
` exhibit number as we receive them.
` MR. ROSATO: That's fine, you can
` do that going forward. You don't need
` to ask. Obviously, let me know if you
`
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
` write something else.
` MR. WELLS: Yes, fair statement.
` MR. ROSATO: I appreciate the
` help.
` A. Okay, I've got 1006.
` BY MR. ROSATO:
` Q. Do you recognize this document?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What is it?
` A. It's the reference that I believe
`we called the Ahmad reference. And I'm not
`sure I know the exhibit number, but there is
`an exhibit number and you referenced this.
` Q. You talk about the Ahmad reference
`on page 9 of your declaration. Can you turn
`to that?
` A. Which declaration?
` Q. Exhibit 1021.
` A. Okay, so paragraph 9?
` Q. Page 9, paragraph 26.
` A. Page 9, paragraph -- I'm sorry?
` Q. Paragraph 26, starts on page 8 and
`goes over to page 9. My question will be
`directed to page 9, so let me know when you're
`
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`there.
` A. Yeah, I just want to read the first
`part of that paragraph, if that's okay.
` Q. Of course.
` A. Yeah, I'm there.
` Q. Okay. About midway down the
`paragraph on page 9, you state that "Ahmad was
`directed at multivalent cationic lipids." Do
`you see that?
` A. This is the same paragraph?
` Q. Yes.
` A. Just give me a chance to read the
`paragraph. There's a sentence that says,
`"Second, Ahmad was directed at multivalent
`cationic lipids, and one of the benefits of
`such lipids is that less can be used to
`contain" -- "to attain a certain charge."
` That's what Ahmad says, yeah.
`Okay.
` Q. First, explain what a multivalent
`cationic lipid is.
` A. So, as you and I have gone around
`and around, context is important, and so that
`question asked out of context is difficult to
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
`answer. But in the context of what we're
`looking at, which is the Ahmad paper, he
`describes the multivalent cationic lipids and
`names them, I think, if I recall this, ML- --
`MLV.
` So MLV, multivalent cationic lipid
`23- -- I think 235. And then I believe
`there's structures of these multivalent
`cationic lipids 235 on Table 1, so in the
`context of Ahmad, the multivalent cationic
`lipid is what's described in Label 1 of the
`Ahmad reference that we're looking at.
` Q. "Multivalent" is a chemistry term,
`correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. What does that mean?
` MR. WELLS: Objection; form.
` A. In general, this is a different
`question than you've asked me, what's a
`multivalent cationic lipid. So just to be
`clear, multivalent cationic lipids have to be
`seen in context. And in the context of Ahmad,
`he describes a multivalent cationic lipid in
`Table 1.
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` ANDREW S. JANOFF (4/5/19)
` You're asking me now if the term
`"multivalent" is a chemistry term. And the
`answer to that is yes, it's a chemistry term.
` Q. The question is what does that
`mean?
` A. It --
` MR. WELLS: Objection to form.
` A. In general, and out of context, but
`in general, it generally means more than one
`charge, a valent would refer to charge. Multi
`would mean more than one.
` Q. So multivalent cationic lipid is a
`cationic lipid that has multiple charges; is
`that correct?
` MR. WELLS: Objection to form.
` A. A multivalent cationic lipid in the
`context of Ahmad or the multivalent cationic
`lipids -- those cationic lipids that possess
`more than one charge
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