·1· ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`· · ·-----------------------------------x
`·3· ·MODERNA THERAPEUTICS, INC.,
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`·4· · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
`· · · · · ·v.
`·5
`· · ·PROTIVA BIOTHERAPEUTICS, INC.,
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`·7
`· · ·Case IPR2018-00680(Patent 9,404,127)
`·8· ·Case IPR2018-00739 (Patent 9,364,435)
`· · ·-----------------------------------x
`·9
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`11· · · · ·Deposition of ANDREW S. JANOFF, PH.D., as
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`12· ·reported by Nancy Mahoney, Certified Court Reporter,
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`13· ·RPR and Notary Public of the States of New York and
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`14· ·New Jersey, at the Westin Princeton at Forrestal
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`15· ·Village on Tuesday, December 4, 2018 commencing at
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`16· ·9:08 a.m.
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`ARBUTUS - EXHIBIT 2001
`Moderna Therapeutics, Inc. v. Arbutus Biopharma Corporation - IPR2019-00554
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`
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`·2· ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`· · ·-----------------------------------x
`·3· ·MODERNA THERAPEUTICS, INC.,
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`·4· · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
`· · · · · ·v.
`·5
`· · ·PROTIVA BIOTHERAPEUTICS, INC.,
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`·7
`· · ·Case IPR2018-00680(Patent 9,404,127)
`·8· ·Case IPR2018-00739 (Patent 9,364,435)
`· · ·-----------------------------------x
`·9
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`10
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`11· · · · ·Deposition of ANDREW S. JANOFF, PH.D., as
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`12· ·reported by Nancy Mahoney, Certified Court Reporter,
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`13· ·RPR and Notary Public of the States of New York and
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`14· ·New Jersey, at the Westin Princeton at Forrestal
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`15· ·Village on Tuesday, December 4, 2018 commencing at
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`16· ·9:08 a.m.
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`ARBUTUS - EXHIBIT 2001
`Moderna Therapeutics, Inc. v. Arbutus Biopharma Corporation - IPR2019-00554
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`
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`·1· ·A P P E A R A N C E S:
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`·2· ·ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
`· · · · · ·IRELL & MANELLA LLP
`·3· · · · ·1800 Avenue of the Stars
`· · · · · ·Los Angeles, California 90067-4276
`·4· · · · ·BY:· C. MACLAIN WELLS, ESQUIRE
`· · · · · · · · mwells@irell.com
`·5· · · · · · · MICHAEL R. FLEMING, ESQUIRE
`· · · · · · · · mfleming@irell.com
`·6
`· · ·ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER
`·7· · · · ·WILSON SONSINI GOODRICH & ROSATI
`· · · · · ·701 Fifth Avenue
`·8· · · · ·Seattle, Washington 98104-7036
`· · · · · ·BY:· MICHAEL T. ROSATO, ESQUIRE
`·9· · · · · · · mrosato@wsgr.com
`· · · · · · · · SONJA R. GERRARD, ESQUIRE
`10· · · · · · · srosato@wsgr.com
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`15
`· · ·ALSO PRESENT:
`16
`· · · · · ·Constantine Linnik
`17· · · · ·General Counsel & Compliance Officer
`· · · · · ·Genevant
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·2
`· · ·WITNESS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`·3
`· · ·ANDREW S. JANOFF, PH.D.
`·4
`· · · ·Examination by Mr. Rosato· · · · · · · · · · · 5
`·5
`· · · ·Examination by Mr. Wells· · · · · · · · · · ·199
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · · · E X H I B I T S
`·7
`· · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
`·8
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`·9· · (Exhibit 1007 Declaration of Andrew S.· · · 23
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`10· · Janoff, Ph.D. in Support of Moderna
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`11· · Therapeutics, Inc.'s Petition for Inter
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`12· · Partes Review of U.S. Patent No.
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`13· · 9,404,127
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`14· · (Exhibit 1007 Declaration of Andrew S.· · · 23
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`15· · Janoff, Ph.D. in Support of Moderna
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`16· · Therapeutics, Inc.'s Petition for Inter
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`17· · Partes Review of U.S. Patent No.
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`18· · 9,364,435
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`19· · Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent No. 9,404,127· · · 50
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`20· · (Exhibit 1018 Curriculum Vitae of Andrew· · 51
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`21· · S. Janoff, Ph.D.
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`·1· · · · · · E X H I B I T S· C O N T I N U E D
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`·2
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`·3· ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`·4
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`·5· · Exhibit 2007 U.S. Patent No. 7,491,409· · · 130
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`·6· · (Exhibit 2020 Combined Declaration for· · · 133
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`·7· · Patent Application and Power of Attorney
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`·8· · Exhibit 1002 U.S. Patent No. 8,058,069· · · 153
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`·9· · Exhibit 1001 U.S. Patent No. 9,364,435· · · 192
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ANDREW S. JANOFF, PH.D.,
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`·2· ·having been first duly sworn by the Notary Public
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`·3· ·(Nancy Mahoney), was examined and testified as
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`·4· ·follows:
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`·5· · · · · EXAMINATION BY MR. ROSATO:
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`·6· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Good morning, Dr. Janoff.
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· · · ·Good morning.
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`·8· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Would you please state your full name
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`·9· ·for the record.
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`10· · · · ·A.· · · ·Andrew S. Janoff.
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`11· · · · ·Q.· · · ·And thank you again for being here
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`12· ·this morning.· I'm sure you're familiar with how
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`13· ·things work in depositions, but we'll quickly go
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`14· ·through couple procedural aspects.· Do you
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`15· ·understand that you're providing your testimony
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`16· ·under oath today and that you're expected to tell
`
`17· ·the truth?
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`18· · · · ·A.· · · ·I do.
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`19· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Is there any reason you cannot
`
`20· ·provide complete and accurate testimony today?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· · · ·No.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· · · ·And hopefully my questions are clear.
`
`23· ·If they're not, please ask me for clarification
`
`24· ·rather than the gentlemen sitting here.· Under the
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`25· ·rules of this proceeding, you should ask me and
`
`
`
`·1· ·unless you tell me that something is not clear, I'm
`
`·2· ·going to assume that you understand the question.
`
`·3· ·Okay?
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · Which brings me to my next point.
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`·5· ·Please provide verbal answers or responses rather
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`·6· ·than nodding your head?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· · · ·It helps the court reporter and make
`
`·9· ·sure we capture that on the record.
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`10· · · · · · · · · Thank you.· I often forget that one
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`11· ·myself.
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`12· · · · · · · · · Then, of course, anytime you need to
`
`13· ·take a break, we can do so as long as there's not a
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`14· ·question pending.· If there's a question pending,
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`15· ·we'll ask that you go ahead and provide your
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`16· ·response before taking a break?
`
`17· · · · · · · · · Is that okay?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· · · ·I understand that there are some
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`20· ·issues with your eyesight.
`
`21· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Is that right?· You have difficulty
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`23· ·reading papers or just reading objects in general?
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`24· · · · ·A.· · · ·I have difficulty with my eyesight in
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`25· ·general now.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · · ·And is this -- may I ask, is this
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`·2· ·age-related presbyopia or is it a unique
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`·3· ·condition --
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`·4· · · · ·A.· · · ·No.· It's a temporary loss in vision.
`
`·5· ·It's getting better, but it's not better yet.
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`·6· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Well, I hope for a full recovery.
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`·7· · · · · · · · · We have a monitor set up in front of
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`·8· ·you, and the documents have been provided on a
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`·9· ·computer that you have access to there.· I will
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`10· ·still hand you paper copies of documents, and you
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`11· ·can feel free to look at the paper copies or pull up
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`12· ·the electronic versions on your computer and look at
`
`13· ·that.
`
`14· · · · · · · · · Okay?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· · · ·Fair enough.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· · · ·If you have any difficulty locating a
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`17· ·document, please let me know and verbalize that for
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`18· ·the record.
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`19· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes, I will.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· · · ·It will help give an opportunity to
`
`21· ·pause so I know what you're doing and give you an
`
`22· ·opportunity to find what you're looking for.
`
`23· · · · · · · · · Okay?· And I know counsel is helping
`
`24· ·you access those documents as well.
`
`25· · · · ·A.· · · ·I understand if there is a question
`
`
`
`·1· ·of privilege, I can ask for a break regardless of
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`·2· ·whether a question is pending or not.· Is that
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`·3· ·correct?
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · · ·If you feel that there's a privilege
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`·5· ·issue, you should state that you are concerned that
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`·6· ·there's a privilege issue, and we can decide
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`·7· ·whether -- we'll deal with the matters as they come
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`·8· ·up.
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`·9· · · · ·A.· · · ·Fair enough.
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`10· · · · ·Q.· · · ·If we need to take a break, we can do
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`11· ·that.
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`12· · · · ·A.· · · ·Fair enough.
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`13· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Thank you for asking that though.
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`14· · · · · · · · · So as we get started, have you ever
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`15· ·been deposed before today?
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`16· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
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`17· · · · ·Q.· · · ·How many times have you been deposed?
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`18· · · · ·A.· · · ·I don't know exactly.
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`19· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Can you estimate?
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`20· · · · ·A.· · · ·Difficult to estimate.· Five, six,
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`21· ·maybe seven, eight.
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`22· · · · ·Q.· · · ·About a half dozen times --
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`23· · · · ·A.· · · ·Maybe more than that.· I can go back
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`24· ·and look at records if you want to know for sure,
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`25· ·but as I sit here today, I can't say for sure.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · · ·So about a dozen probably?
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`·2· · · · ·A.· · · ·In that -- in that ballpark, likely.
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`·3· ·That's my recollection.
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`·4· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Do you recall what those cases --
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`·5· ·what types of cases those were?
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`·6· · · · ·A.· · · ·I do.
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`·7· · · · ·Q.· · · ·What were they?
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`·8· · · · ·A.· · · ·I'm not sure that I can say.· I don't
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`·9· ·know whether I'm violating privilege if I tell you.
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`10· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Were they public cases?
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`11· · · · ·A.· · · ·In some cases yes; in some cases no,
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`12· ·and I'm just trying to make sure that I'm not -- I'm
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`13· ·not violating any privilege at all.· Some of them go
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`14· ·way back in time, and I'm just not -- I'm just not
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`15· ·certain.· I testified for AstraZeneca in federal
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`16· ·court, and I was deposed in that case and that's
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`17· ·public, so I can tell you that.· I'm just not sure
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`18· ·of the other cases.
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`19· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Do you remember -- besides the
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`20· ·AstraZeneca case, do you remember any cases that are
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`21· ·public?
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`22· · · · ·A.· · · ·As I sit here today, I'm not sure
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`23· ·whether they became public or not.
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`24· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Are any of those public cases listed
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`25· ·on your CV or stated in your declaration?
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`
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`·1· · · · ·A.· · · ·They probably are.· So if you show me
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`·2· ·my CV, that would be helpful.
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`·3· · · · ·Q.· · · ·When was the last time you updated
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`·4· ·your CV?
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`·5· · · · ·A.· · · ·About a year ago likely.
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`·6· · · · ·Q.· · · ·And you don't recall from updating
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`·7· ·that what may have been put in there?
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`·8· · · · ·A.· · · ·If you show me my CV, it would be
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`·9· ·very helpful.
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`10· · · · ·Q.· · · ·I'm mainly interested in your
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`11· ·recollection.
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`12· · · · ·A.· · · ·I'd like to see my CV and then I can
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`13· ·tell you.
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`14· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Sure.· Why don't you go ahead and
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`15· ·pull that up on the computer, if you have access to
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`16· ·that document.
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`17· · · · ·A.· · · ·I'm having difficulty with this.· Can
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`18· ·we bring this closer, and then we want to scroll
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`19· ·down, I think.· Just give me a moment.
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`20· · · · ·Q.· · · ·I'm also going to hand you a paper
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`21· ·copy of your CV.
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`22· · · · ·A.· · · ·That might be ...
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`23· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Which is Exhibit 2021 in the record.
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`24· · · · ·A.· · · ·Just bear with me.· You see the
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`25· ·expert testimony section in the federal court, that
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`
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`·1· ·was AstraZeneca, and I know that's public.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· · · ·What page are you looking at?
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`·3· · · · ·A.· · · ·I'm looking at page 2, I believe.
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`·4· ·These are double-sided.
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`·5· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Are you referring to under the
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`·6· ·heading Advisory Committee/Consulting --
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`·7· · · · ·A.· · · ·No.· If you go down to the next big
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`·8· ·heading, you see where it says Expert Testimony?
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`·9· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Yes.
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`10· · · · ·A.· · · ·That's what I'm referring to.
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`11· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Under Expert Testimony it states only
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`12· ·United States Federal District Court.
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`13· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.· And I'm telling you that I can
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`14· ·tell you that that was AstraZeneca.
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`15· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Are there any United States Federal
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`16· ·District Court cases other than AstraZeneca?
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`17· · · · ·A.· · · ·Not -- no.· And there were other
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`18· ·depositions that happened in this period; and,
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`19· ·again, I'm not -- you don't see them on here, and
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`20· ·I'm not sure whether they're privileged or not, and
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`21· ·they were depositions that happened when I was
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`22· ·defending what people called the Janoff patents when
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`23· ·I was at the Liposome Company, and there were
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`24· ·patents that had to do with lyophilization when I
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`25· ·was at the Liposome Company.· I don't list them on
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`
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`·1· ·here because they were so long ago.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · If the question is how many times
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`·3· ·have I been deposed, again, I'll guess at a dozen,
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`·4· ·and I can tell you for sure about the AstraZeneca
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`·5· ·case, but I'm uncertain whether I can talk about the
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`·6· ·other cases.· If you'd like, I can check with
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`·7· ·counsel and at some point let you know.
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`·8· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Why don't we do this.· On page 1 of
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`·9· ·your CV under the heading Professional Positions,
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`10· ·you list the title Expert Consultant.
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`11· · · · · · · · · Do you see that?
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`12· · · · ·A.· · · ·I do.
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`13· · · · ·Q.· · · ·And the date corresponding to expert
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`14· ·consultant states 2012, dash, which I assume means
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`15· ·to the present.
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`16· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
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`17· · · · ·Q.· · · ·How about if you check with counsel
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`18· ·and figure out the list of expert consultant
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`19· ·positions or expert witness positions that are
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`20· ·publicly available or non-confidential that you
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`21· ·could disclose and you can give us some
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`22· ·identification of those.· We don't have to do this
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`23· ·today.· We can follow up with that.
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`24· · · · ·A.· · · ·Okay.
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`25· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· We'll work it out off
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`
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`·1· ·offline.· Doesn't need to be on the transcript.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· · · ·You mentioned the AstraZeneca case
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`·3· ·earlier.· Was your role an expert -- technical
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`·4· ·expert witness in that case?
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`·5· · · · ·A.· · · ·I was an expert witness in that case.
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`·6· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Was expert witness your only role in
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`·7· ·that case?
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`·8· · · · ·A.· · · ·I'm not sure exactly if I understand
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`·9· ·the question.
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`10· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Did you serve as a fact witness, for
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`11· ·example?
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`12· · · · ·A.· · · ·I'm not sure I understand the
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`13· ·distinction.
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`14· · · · ·Q.· · · ·You don't understand the distinction
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`15· ·between being a witness as to expert testimony
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`16· ·versus being a witness as --
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`17· · · · ·A.· · · ·You'd have to tell me -- specifically
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`18· ·what you're getting at because I don't understand
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`19· ·the question.
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`20· · · · ·Q.· · · ·I'm asking what your role was in the
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`21· ·case.
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`22· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· Asked and answered.
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`23· · · · ·Q.· · · ·An expert witness?
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`24· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
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`25· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Anything else?
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`
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`·1· · · · ·A.· · · ·I was an expert witness for
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`·2· ·AstraZeneca.
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`·3· · · · ·Q.· · · ·So nothing other than an expert
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`·4· ·witness?
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`·5· · · · ·A.· · · ·I was an expert witness for
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`·6· ·AstraZeneca.
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`·7· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Was there anything other than expert
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`·8· ·witness activity?
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`·9· · · · ·A.· · · ·I was compensated as an expert
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`10· ·witness for AstraZeneca.
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`11· · · · ·Q.· · · ·That's not what I asked you.
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`12· · · · ·A.· · · ·That's my answer.
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`13· · · · ·Q.· · · ·So you're not going to answer the
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`14· ·question?
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`15· · · · ·A.· · · ·I am answering the question.
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`16· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· Objection, asked and
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`17· ·answered, argumentative.
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`18· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Did you do anything in the
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`19· ·AstraZeneca case other than your service as an
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`20· ·expert witness?
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`21· · · · ·A.· · · ·I performed the duties that I was
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`22· ·compensated for as an expert witness in that case.
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`23· · · · ·Q.· · · ·What were those duties?
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`24· · · · ·A.· · · ·To testify on behalf of AstraZeneca
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`25· ·in that case.· And I'm not sure what privilege I
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`
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`·1· ·might be violating if I go further than that.
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`·2· ·What's on the record is that I'm an expert witness
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`·3· ·and I was an expert witness and I testified in
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`·4· ·federal court.· There's a transcript of that and a
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`·5· ·record of that, and anything else that I did for
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`·6· ·AstraZeneca is encompassed -- was encompassed in my
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`·7· ·duties as an expert witness, but I'm not sure
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`·8· ·whether some of that is privileged or not.
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`·9· · · · ·Q.· · · ·I see, okay.· I just want to know
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`10· ·generally about your role.· I'm not asking about
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`11· ·anything confidential or privileged.· So I
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`12· ·understand that concern.
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`13· · · · · · · · · Now, you filed two declarations in
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`14· ·two different proceedings in this case.
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`15· · · · ·A.· · · ·That's correct.
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`16· · · · ·Q.· · · ·One is the IPR 2018-00680 case
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`17· ·challenging U.S. Patent 9,404,127.
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`18· · · · · · · · · Do you understand that?
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`19· · · · ·A.· · · ·That's correct.
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`20· · · · ·Q.· · · ·And you refer to that patent as the
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`21· ·'127 patent.
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`22· · · · ·A.· · · ·Fair enough.
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`23· · · · ·Q.· · · ·And I may refer to that case as the
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`24· ·'127 patent IPR; you'll know what I mean?
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`25· · · · ·A.· · · ·If I don't -- if I'm unclear, I'll
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`
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`·1· ·ask.
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`·2· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Thank you.
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`·3· · · · · · · · · There's another case and that's IPR
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`·4· ·2018-00739 challenging U.S. Patent 9,364,435, right?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes, I see it.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· · · ·And I'll also refer to that patent as
`
`·7· ·the '435 patent.· Is that okay?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· · · ·And that case -- the '435 patent IPR,
`
`10· ·and you'll know what I mean or ask me if you don't,
`
`11· ·right?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· · · ·I will.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· · · ·I mentioned this because we're going
`
`14· ·to talk about both of those cases today.· Okay?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· · · ·We're trying to be efficient so we
`
`17· ·don't keep you here for multiple days, so some of
`
`18· ·the questions I ask will be relevant to both of
`
`19· ·those cases.· Okay?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· · · ·If I don't understand the questions
`
`21· ·that you're asking, I'll ask for clarification.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Fair enough.· If I'm asking a
`
`23· ·question you feel necessary to make a distinction
`
`24· ·between the two cases, you can let me know.· Okay?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · · ·So for this case, are you being
`
`·2· ·compensated for your testimony?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Who's providing that compensation?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· · · ·Moderna.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Moderna is the petitioner in this
`
`·7· ·case?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Are you being paid at an hourly rate?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· · · ·And what is your rate?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· · · ·$750 an hour.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Are you receiving any compensation
`
`14· ·other than the compensation of your hourly rate?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· · · ·I'm reimbursed for expenses if there
`
`16· ·are expenses.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Are you receiving any compensation in
`
`18· ·the form of stock or equity?
`
`19· · · · ·A.· · · ·No.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· · · ·So you don't have any financial
`
`21· ·interest in Moderna?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· · · ·No financial interest in Moderna.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Do you have any personal interest in
`
`24· ·Moderna?
`
`25· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· Objection, vague.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· · · ·I don't know what you mean by
`
`·2· ·personal interest.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· · · ·You seem to make a distinction of
`
`·4· ·financial interest.· I'm wondering if there's any
`
`·5· ·other interest.
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· · · ·I'm making a distinction or you're
`
`·7· ·making a distinction?
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Seems like you made a distinction
`
`·9· ·with financial interest.
`
`10· · · · ·A.· · · ·No, I'm making no distinction.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· · · ·So your only interest in Moderna is
`
`12· ·your role as an expert witness?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· · · ·I've been asked to be an expert
`
`14· ·witness, and I'm compensated as such.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Other than these IPRs, do you have
`
`16· ·any relationship with Moderna?
`
`17· · · · ·A.· · · ·Not that I'm aware of.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Have you been an expert witness for
`
`19· ·Moderna in the past or currently in other cases,
`
`20· ·with the proviso of non-privileged,
`
`21· ·non-confidential?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· · · ·Not that I'm aware of.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· · · ·With the same proviso, are you an
`
`24· ·expert in any other cases with the Irell law firm
`
`25· ·that you can speak of?
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· · · ·I'm not an expert in any other case
`
`·2· ·for that particular law firm, the Irell law firm
`
`·3· ·that you mentioned.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · · ·How did you come to be an expert in
`
`·5· ·this matter?
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· I would caution the
`
`·7· ·witness not to divulge the content of any
`
`·8· ·communications with attorneys, but you can generally
`
`·9· ·answer to the extent it doesn't reflect those
`
`10· ·communications.
`
`11· · · · ·A.· · · ·I was asked to be an expert.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Who asked you to be an expert?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· · · ·Is this a question of privilege?
`
`14· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· If you're asking -- you
`
`15· ·can identify the person who asked you, but I would
`
`16· ·caution you not to divulge the content of any
`
`17· ·communications with attorneys.
`
`18· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I can identify the
`
`19· ·person?
`
`20· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· Yes.
`
`21· · · · ·A.· · · ·So it was Maclain who asked me,
`
`22· ·Maclain Wells.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Did you know Maclain prior to working
`
`24· ·on this case?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· · · ·No, I didn't.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · · ·What did you do to prepare for your
`
`·2· ·deposition today?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· · · ·I reviewed the relevant parts of my
`
`·4· ·declaration, and I reviewed relevant references.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· · · ·By relevant references, are you
`
`·6· ·referring to the references that were cited in your
`
`·7· ·declaration?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Were there any references other than
`
`10· ·the references cited in your declaration?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· · · ·Not that I -- I don't believe so.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Were there any other materials that
`
`13· ·you reviewed other than what's in your declaration?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· · · ·I reviewed the preliminary response
`
`15· ·of the patent owner in both cases, we'll call them
`
`16· ·the '127 and '435; I had a look at the board's --
`
`17· ·we'll call it the board's decision in both cases,
`
`18· ·and I believe it probably stopped there, but I can't
`
`19· ·be certain.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· · · ·So no other documents other than the
`
`21· ·references of the record, the patent owner responses
`
`22· ·and the board's decision?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· · · ·I didn't say that.· I may have looked
`
`24· ·at other documents that are not listed, but I can't
`
`25· ·tell you what they are.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Why can't you tell me what they are?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· · · ·Because I don't remember.· I mean, if
`
`·3· ·you show me a document and asked if I reviewed it, I
`
`·4· ·would be able to tell you; but as I sit here today,
`
`·5· ·I reviewed these declarations for sure; I reviewed
`
`·6· ·the response of the patent holder for sure; I
`
`·7· ·reviewed the board's decision for sure.· There were
`
`·8· ·references listed in my declaration that I can't
`
`·9· ·tell you that I looked at all of them, but I looked
`
`10· ·at the relevant parts of many of them.
`
`11· · · · · · · · · And there might have been other
`
`12· ·papers in my library that I could have looked at. I
`
`13· ·can't tell you that I didn't, but I can't tell you
`
`14· ·what they are because I read a lot of things.· If
`
`15· ·you're interested in whether I read something or
`
`16· ·not, show me the document and I'll tell you.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· · · ·I wasn't in your office at the time
`
`18· ·so it's hard for me to do that.· I'm just asking
`
`19· ·generally what you did to prepare for today's
`
`20· ·deposition.
`
`21· · · · · · · · · You understand that?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes, and generally I've answered the
`
`23· ·question, I think.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· · · ·I think you have.· I think what you
`
`25· ·mentioned were maybe there were some other documents
`
`
`
`·1· ·in your office that you accessed as would be
`
`·2· ·available to you.· Is that right?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· · · ·Maybe.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · · ·When did you prepare for your
`
`·5· ·deposition?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· · · ·I met with counsel these last two
`
`·7· ·days, I guess Sunday and Monday.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· · · ·I'm sorry you had to spend your
`
`·9· ·Sunday reading legal documents.
`
`10· · · · ·A.· · · ·That's okay.· And I have to say that
`
`11· ·prior to meeting with counsel, knowing that this
`
`12· ·deposition was on the calendar, I likely looked at,
`
`13· ·reviewed the case the way I represented to you
`
`14· ·because it had been sometime since these were filed.
`
`15· ·I'm looking at the dates here, June 14th, it's now
`
`16· ·December.
`
`17· · · · · · · · · So there was a lot of activity around
`
`18· ·the June/August time frame and in order to recall
`
`19· ·the nature of the case, I probably spent time in my
`
`20· ·own office prior to meeting with counsel so that I
`
`21· ·didn't waste counsel's time.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Sure.· When you say you met with
`
`23· ·counsel, you're referring to Maclain?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes, and I also met with --
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Mr. Fleming?
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· · · ·-- Mr. Fleming, my new best friend.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· · · ·We're all friends here, so appreciate
`
`·3· ·that.
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · I'm going to hand you a copy of your
`
`·5· ·declaration from the '127 case.
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· · · ·Is that what I have in front of me
`
`·7· ·here?
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· It is, but if you prefer
`
`·9· ·to use the copy that you have, I'm happy to do that.
`
`10· · · · · · · · · MR. ROSATO:· That's right, you guys
`
`11· ·have a copy.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · · ·So, for the record, you have a copy
`
`13· ·there of Exhibit 1007 from the '127 IPR.
`
`14· · · · · · · · · (Exhibit 1007 Declaration of Andrew
`
`15· ·S. Janoff, Ph.D. in Support of Moderna Therapeutics,
`
`16· ·Inc.'s Petition for Inter Partes Review of U.S.
`
`17· ·Patent No. 9,404,127 marked for identification and
`
`18· ·attached to the transcript.)
`
`19· · · · · · · · · (Exhibit 1007 Declaration of Andrew
`
`20· ·S. Janoff, Ph.D. in Support of Moderna Therapeutics,
`
`21· ·Inc.'s Petition for Inter Partes Review of U.S.
`
`22· ·Patent No. 9,364,435 marked for identification and
`
`23· ·attached to the transcript.)
`
`24· · · · ·A.· · · ·I'm sorry, I'm confused now.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Can I just look at them so I can help
`
`
`
`·1· ·you guys identify which documents I'm looking at.
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · Now I'm physically handing you a copy
`
`·3· ·of Exhibit 1007 from the '127 patent IPR.· Do you
`
`·4· ·recognize that document?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· · · ·I recognized the front page of the
`
`·6· ·document.· If you'd like me to look at every page of
`
`·7· ·the document to ensure that I recognize that, I can
`
`·8· ·do it, but I'm not doing that as we sit here now.
`
`·9· ·I'm just relying on your representation that this is
`
`10· ·the document if that's okay.
`
`11· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· And I'll represent for
`
`12· ·the record that this is a complete copy of the
`
`13· ·corpus of his declaration and the '127 patent that
`
`14· ·was provided to counsel.
`
`15· · · · · · · · · MR. ROSATO:· Thank you.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· · · ·A large part of these questions are
`
`17· ·just to identify for the record what I'm handing you
`
`18· ·so when someone reads the transcript later they will
`
`19· ·know what we're talking about.
`
`20· · · · · · · · · You also have access to an electronic
`
`21· ·version of that document on your computer.· You
`
`22· ·don't have to necessarily pull this up now, but I'm
`
`23· ·just letting now that.· Okay?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· · · ·Thank you.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Im also handing you, while we're
`
`
`
`·1· ·handing out declarations, a copy of your declaration
`
`·2· ·in the '435 patent case.· Do you see that?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · · ·And you recognize that document?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· · · ·I recognize the cover page of the
`
`·6· ·document, represented to me that this is the entire
`
`·7· ·document, then I'll accept that.
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· I'll make the same
`
`·9· ·representation.
`
`10· · · · · · · · · MR. ROSATO:· Thank you.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· · · ·And likewise you have an electronic
`
`12· ·copy on your computer you can access as needed.
`
`13· · · · · · · · · And I see from your declaration as
`
`14· ·well as your CV you have a Ph.D. in biophysics.· Is
`
`15· ·that right?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· · · ·That's correct.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· · · ·You have other degrees?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· · · ·I have a master's in biophysics, and
`
`19· ·I have other degrees as well.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· · · ·What are your other degrees?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· · · ·I have a bachelor's in biology.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Anything else?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· · · ·I may have honorary degrees, but as I
`
`24· ·sit here today, I can't litanize them for you.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· · · ·And you're an honorary New Jersey
`
`
`
`·1· ·resident which I respect on a different level, but
`
`·2· ·other than that --
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· · · ·I'm not an honorary New Jersey
`
`·4· ·resident.· I'm a New Jersey resident.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· · · ·A literal New Jersey resident?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Okay, fair enough.
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · Do you have any legal training?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· · · ·No.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· · · ·No law degree?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· · · ·No.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · · ·It's fair to assume then you left the
`
`13· ·drafting of the legal documents to the lawyers?
`
`14· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· Objection, vague.
`
`15· · · · ·A.· · · ·These documents that you have in
`
`16· ·front of me represent my opinions, and I've signed
`
`17· ·these documents representing that they're my
`
`18· ·opinions under penalty and under oath.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Did you prepare any other documents
`
`20· ·in the course of this proceeding?
`
`21· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· Objection, vague.· And to
`
`22· ·the extent it calls for attorney-client privileged
`
`23· ·information, to the extent you prepared other
`
`24· ·materials that were submitted to the patent office,
`
`25· ·which is what I think counsel is asking, you can
`
`
`
`·1· ·answer that question.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Fair enough.· Let me restate.
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · Did you prepare any other documents
`
`·4· ·that were filed and of record in this case?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· · · ·Not that I'm aware of.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Do you have specific experience
`
`·7· ·working with lipid particles?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · · ·Yes.· But let me just rephrase that.
`
`·9· ·I'd like you to define for me what you mean by lipid
`
`10· ·particles.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· · · ·So you don't know what I mean if I
`
`12· ·ask if you have specific experience working with
`
`13· ·lipid particles?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· · · ·No, I didn't say that.· I said that I
`
`15· ·would like you to define what you mean by lipid
`
`16· ·particles so I can accurately answer the question
`
`17· ·that you put forth because different people may have
`
`18· ·different conceptions of lipid particles.
`
`19· · · · · · · · · So if you could -- you've asked me a
`
`20· ·question and you've asked me whether I have
`
`21· ·experience with an entity.· I'd like you to
`
`22· ·specifically describe that entity so that I can
`
`23· ·accurately answer the question.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· · · ·However you understand the term lipid
`
`25· ·particles.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· · · ·But that's too vague.· Have I worked
`
`·2· ·with lipids; could you rephrase that question?
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· · · ·My question was:· Do you have
`
`·4· ·specific experience working with lipid particles?
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· Objection, vague.
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· · · ·You'd have to tell me what lipid
`
`·7· ·particles are, how you mean lipid particles.· This
`
`·8· ·is a term that has different meanings for different
`
`·9· ·people; and in order for me to truthfully answer
`
`10· ·this question and accurately answer this question,
`
`11· ·you need to describe to me specifically what you
`
`12· ·mean by lipid particles.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· · · ·How do you understand lipid
`
`14· ·particles?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· · · ·Different people understand lipid
`
`16· ·particles in different ways and in different
`
`17· ·contexts.· So I need to know specifically what
`
`18· ·you're talking about.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· · · ·You said different people.· I'm
`
`20· ·asking about you.
`
`21· · · · ·A.· · · ·It would depend on the context and
`
`22· ·the environment and the utility; would depend on
`
`23· ·many things.· So in isolation I can't answer that
`
`24· ·question because to me that term has many different
`
`25· ·meanings.
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · · ·What's one of the meanings you can
`
`·2· ·think of?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· · · ·You'll have to ask me, and I'll tell
`
`·4· ·you whether this is something that I would accept to
`
`·5· ·be a lipid particle or not.· I can't guess at what
`
`·6· ·you're asking me.
`
`·7· · · · · · · · · MR. ROSATO:· Can you re-read my
`
`·8· ·question, Court Reporter, please.
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · (Pending question read.)
`
`10· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· Objection, asked and
`
`11· ·answered.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · · ·You can still answer the question.
`
`13· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· Same objection.
`
`14· · · · ·A.· · · ·I would need to know the context.
`
`15· ·You'd have to provide me a context.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· · · ·So you can't think of a single
`
`17· ·meaning of lipid particle?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· · · ·Didn't say that.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Can you think of one meaning of the
`
`20· ·term lipid particle?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· · · ·It would depend on the context and a
`
`22· ·variety of other factors; otherwise, I'm not able to
`
`23· ·answer the question accurately.· So if you could
`
`24· ·define for me what -- the context that you would
`
`25· ·like me to consider, I can answer the question.· But
`
`
`
`·1· ·I can't answer the -- it's a vague, vague, vague
`
`·2· ·question, and I can't answer a vague question with
`
`·3· ·any sort of accuracy.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · · ·Just to be clear, you consider the
`
`·5· ·question, "Do you have specific experience working
`
`·6· ·with lipid particles," to be a vague question?
`
`·7· · · · · · · · · MR. WELLS:· Objection, argumentative.
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · · ·In order to answer what a lipid
`
`·9· ·particle is accurately, I would need to know the
`
`10· ·context in which you -- i
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