`
`Transcript of George Edwards,
`Ph.D., Volume 2
`
`Date: December 6, 2019
`Case: American National Manufacturing Inc. -v- Sleep Number Corporation, et al.
`(PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email:: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
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`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`American National Manufacturing Inc.
`Exhibit 1056
`IPR2019-00514
`Page 1
`
`

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`Transcript of George Edwards, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 6, 2019
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`1 (306 to 309)
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`306
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`308
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`APPEARANCES:
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` On Behalf of Petitioner:
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` SPENCER FANE LLP
` 500 Granite Parkway
` Suite 650
` Plano, TX 75024
` By: Jaspal S. Hare, Esq.
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` On Behalf of Patent Owner:
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` FOX ROTHSCHILD, LLP
` 222 South Ninth Street
` Suite 2000
` Minneapolis, MN 55402
` By: Luke Toft, Esq.
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` ALSO PRESENT: Joshua Phinney, Ph.D.
` Kyle Stolis, Videographer
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK O
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`ICE
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` BE ORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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` AMERICAN NATIONAL MANU ACTURING, INC.,
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` Petitioner
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` SLEEP NUMBER CORPORATION
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` f/k/a SELECT COM ORT CORPORATION,
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` Patent Owner
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` Case IPR20 9 00497, Patent No. 8,769,747
` Case IPR20 9 00500, Patent No. 9,737, 54
` Case IPR20 9 005 4, Patent No. 5,904, 72
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` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION
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` O
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` GEORGE EDWARDS, Ph.D.
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` VOLUME II PAGES 306 467
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` December 6, 20 9
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`307
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`INDEX:
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`309
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`EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
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`Mr. Hare.......................................3
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`EXHIBITS MARKED OR IDENTI ICATION:
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`Exhibit
`Printed Source Code
`Original retained by Counsel
`No Copy Provided
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`Exhibit 2.....................................462
`Bates SN_002 0 3 SN_002 0 4
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`Reported by: Amy L. Larson, RPR
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`VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION O GEORGE EDWARDS, Ph.D.,
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`taken on this 6th day of December, 20 9,
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`commencing at approximately 8:57 a.m., at
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`the law offices of ox Rothschild, LLP, 222 South
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`Ninth Street, Suite 2000, Minneapolis, Minnesota.
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`American National Manufacturing Inc.
`Exhibit 1056
`IPR2019-00514
`Page 2
`
`

`

`Transcript of George Edwards, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 6, 2019
`
`310
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`2 (310 to 313)
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`3 2
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` done anything to prepare for today's session?
`A. No.
`Q. Okay. Did you look at any documents related
` to this matter?
`A. No.
`Q. Did you talk to anybody regarding this
` matter?
`A. No.
`Q. All right. I want to just clean up one
` thing. We may -- and it may or may not need
` cleanup, but we talked a lot about ANM
` products yesterday, right?
`A. Yes.
`Q. All right. In your report you make clear
` you're accusing certain products, but not
` necessarily all of them, right?
` MR. TOFT: Object to the extent it
` mischaracterizes his testimony.
` THE WITNESS: My report refers to
` certain ANM products. My analysis refers
` specifically to versions of source code, ANM
` source code.
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning.
`
`Here begins day 2 in the videotaped
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`deposition of Dr. George Edwards in the
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`matter of American National Manufacturing,
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`Incorporated vs. Sleep Number Corporation,
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`et al., in the United States Patent and
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`Trademark Office before the Patent Trial and
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`Appeal Board, Case Numbers IPR20 9 00497,
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`IPR20 9 00500, and IPR20 9 005 4.
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` Today s date is riday,
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`December 6th, 20 9. The time on the video
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`monitor is 8:58 a.m. The videographer today
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`is Kyle Stolis representing Planet Depos.
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`This video deposition is taking place at at
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`the office of ox Rothschild, LLP, in
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`Minneapolis, Minnesota.
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`2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
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` Would counsel please voice identify
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`themselves and state whom they represent.
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`2
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` MR. HARE: Jaspal Hare with
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` MR. HARE: Okay.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. Would it be fair to say that in the context
` we re discussing the ANM products, our
` discussion should be read in the context of
` your report that if we re talking about a
` certain element infringing, we re talking
` about the ones you accuse, not necessarily
` every ANM product?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form, object
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` to the extent it mischaracterizes his
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` testimony, object to the extent it s outside
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` the scope of his direct testimony and/or
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` calls for legal conclusions.
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` THE WITNESS: So I think I stated
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` several times yesterday that I wasn t
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` offering any opinions on infringement, so I
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` don t believe that I made statements
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` regarding infringement with respect to any
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` ANM product or source code.
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`BY MR. HARE:
`21
`Q. So if we just, in my question, replaced
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
` Spencer ane representing petitioner
`
` American National Manufacturing.
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` MR. TO T: Luke Toft,
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` ox Rothschild, representing Sleep Number
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` Corporation.
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.
`
` The court reporter today is
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` Amy Larson representing Planet Depos.
`
` Would the reporter please swear in
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` the witness.
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`
` GEORGE EDWARDS, Ph.D.,
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` a witness in the above entitled action,
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` after having been first duly sworn, was
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` deposed and says as follows:
`
`
`
` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. HARE:
`
`Q. Good morning. So since we concluded the
`
` deposition, have you done anything to prepare
`
` for today s
`
` since we concluded the
`
` deposition yesterday, the session, have you
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`American National Manufacturing Inc.
`Exhibit 1056
`IPR2019-00514
`Page 3
`
`

`

`3 (314 to 317)
`
`3 6
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`Transcript of George Edwards, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 6, 2019
`3 4
` infringement with meeting the elements, would
` that be a fair statement then?
` MR. TOFT: Same objections.
` THE WITNESS: Can you -- can you
` repeat the question with --
` MR. HARE: Let me just try to
` reread it.
` And, Counsel, I m going to warn you
` your objections are way out of line. We may
` need to have a call with the Board if this
` continues.
` MR. TOFT: I disagree. They re
` appropriate objections based on the
` questions, but we ll see.
` MR. HARE: We may need to have a
` call with the Board.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. Would it be fair to say in the context we
` were discussing -- when we were discussing
` ANM products yesterday, that that discussion
` should be read in the context of your report?
` And by way of example, if we were talking
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`A. That --
` MR. TOFT: Same objections.
` THE WITNESS: It is -- it is
` correct to say that I do not have opinions
` regarding any ANM products that are not
` referred to in my report or any ANM source
` code that s not referred to in my report.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. Is there a reason you re not answering my
` questions? I looked over the rough, and this
` seems to be a continuing issue that you re
` answering your own questions, not mine.
` MR. TOFT: Object to the extent it
` mischaracterizes.
` THE WITNESS: I believe I just did
` answer your question.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. I believe you changed my question and
` answered a slightly different question. Are
` you doing that intentionally?
`A. I'm doing my best to answer your questions.
`Q. Are you capable of answering my questions
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` about certain elements, claim elements
` meeting -- being met in the ANM products, we
` were talking about the ones you accused, not
` necessarily all ANM products?
` MR. TOFT: Object to the extent it
` mischaracterizes testimony and to form.
` THE WITNESS: I think that s
` generally fair. The -- the opinions I ve
` given are with respect to how the source code
` I analyzed meets the software-related
` elements of claims of the patents at issue.
` MR. HARE: Okay.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. I wasn t trying to make this really
` complicated. You re not trying -- in
` yesterday s testimony, you re not trying to
` accuse any extra products that you didn t
` accuse --
` MR. TOFT: Same objections.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. -- of meeting claim elements that aren t
` specified in your report, correct?
`
` correctly?
` MR. TOFT: Objection to form to
` the extent it s harassment.
` THE WITNESS: I -- my answer is
` the same, I m doing my best to answer your
` questions.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. Do you recall we talked about claim 1 of
` the 747 yesterday?
`A. Yes, I do recall that.
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`Q. Okay. And we also talked about certain
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` elements of claim 1 and various portions of
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` the infringement contentions related to
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` claim 1, correct?
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`A. Yes, that's correct.
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`Q. If those same elements appear in another
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` claim, would your analysis or testimony about
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` those elements change?
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` MR. TOFT: Object to form and to
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` the extent it calls for speculation and an
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` incomplete hypothetical.
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` MR. HARE: Again, Counsel, I find
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`American National Manufacturing Inc.
`Exhibit 1056
`IPR2019-00514
`Page 4
`
`

`

`Transcript of George Edwards, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 6, 2019
`3 8
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`4 (318 to 321)
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`Q. Do you recall any -- any of those claims that
` are different? And in particular I'm talking
` about independent claims.
`A. Okay. That -- that does change the question.
` I -- the example I was about to give was that
` some of the claims require an additive
` pressure adjustment factor and some claims
` require a multiplicative pressure adjustment
` factor, so that was the example I was
` thinking of of where there can be differences
` in claims with respect to the pressure
` adjustment factor.
`Q. Okay. As far as the independent claims, you
` don't recall any differences?
`A. I --
` MR. TOFT: I'm just going to
` object to the extent it's -- he doesn't have
` them in front of him.
` THE WITNESS: I can't recall off
` the top of my head whether there are any
` independent claims that have differences in
` wording with respect to the pressure
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` your objections, speaking objections and
` inappropriate.
` MR. TOFT: If you want to give a
` specific example, Jaspal, feel free to do so.
` But this is a very broad, generalized
` question, and I can t not object --
` MR. HARE: -- with speaking
` objection and disrupting the deposition.
` Please answer the question.
` THE WITNESS: I think that where
` claim elements of different claims are
` identical, my -- the source code that I
` identified as meeting those claims is the
` same.
` In some cases there are slight
` differences between claims and the wording of
` claim elements that are generally similar,
` but not identical, and I would not be able to
` say -- make a blanket statement that there
` are no differences without reviewing the two
` claims side by side.
` MR. HARE: Okay. Thank you.
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`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. And I m just trying to save time with -- if
` we need to go every single claim one by one
` and do the same analysis, we can. But do you
` want to take a quick look at the patents,
` would that help? And I m just going to have
` one -- probably one or two questions of would
` your analysis of pressure adjustment
` change -- sorry, pressure adjustment factor
` change?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: There are
` differences in the claims with respect to the
` pressure adjustment factor in some cases.
` And where there are differences in the claim
` with respect to the pressure adjustment
` factor in some cases, I believe I identified
` different code as meeting that claim element
` when there are differences in the wording of
` the claim element.
` MR. HARE: Okay.
`BY MR. HARE:
`
` adjustment factor as compared to claim 1 of
` the 747, which I believe is the claim we
` were looking at yesterday.
` MR. HARE: Okay.
` Can I -- could I ask the court
` reporter to please hand the witness Edwards
` Exhibits 9 and 10, which are the 15 -- sorry,
` Edwards Exhibit 8 and 9, which is the 747
` patent and the 154 patent.
` THE COURT REPORTER: (Complies.)
`0
`BY MR. HARE:
`11
`Q. My understanding is the stuff we discussed is
`12
` in all independent claims of the -- those two
`13
` patents I just handed you. If you see
`14
` anything significantly different than the
`15
` elements we discussed yesterday, can you
`16
` please let me know, in the independent
`17
` claims?
`18
`A. Okay.
`19
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Just a moment,
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` please. (Reviews document.)
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`American National Manufacturing Inc.
`Exhibit 1056
`IPR2019-00514
`Page 5
`
`

`

`Transcript of George Edwards, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 6, 2019
`322
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`5 (322 to 325)
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` that I do not see explicitly in claim 1 of
` the '747.
`Q. Anything else?
`A. There are, I think -- I think there's at
` least one independent claim that I did not
` identify source code for in the infringement
` contentions. I believe --
`Q. Which one is that?
`A. I believe it is independent -- independent
` claim 20 of the '154 is not included in the
` infringement contentions, if I am remembering
` correctly.
` Again, I don't have the infringement
` contentions in front of me at the moment, but
` my recollection is that independent claim 20
` of the '154 is not included in those
` infringement contentions.
`Q. You're not asserting an opinion that claim 20
` meets -- sorry. Strike that.
` You're not asserting an opinion that
` the ANM product -- any ANM product meets the
` claim limitations of claim 20; is that
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` So I think one -- one example I
` found of a -- different so far is that in
` claim -- independent claim 18 of the 154,
` claim element H refers to an updated pressure
` adjustment factor. I don t believe that
` claim 1 of the 747 uses the phrase "updated
` pressure adjustment factor."
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. So that s just something extra that claim
` requires, correct, that s more than claim 1,
` correct?
` MR. TOFT: Object to the extent it
` calls for a legal conclusion.
` THE WITNESS: That is something
` that claim 18 of the 154 requires that
` claim 1 of the 747 does not explicitly
` require.
` Another difference that I see is
` that claim 1 of the 747 explicitly requires
` an inflate pressure adjustment factor and a
` deflate pressure adjustment factor. Claim 1
` of the 154, as an example, does not use the
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` correct?
` phrases "inflate pressure adjustment factor"
`A. That is correct. At this time I'm not
` and "deflate pressure adjustment factor," it
` offering an opinion regarding the claims that
` uses the shorter and more general pressure
` are not included in the infringement
` adjustment factor.
` contentions.
` MR. HARE: Okay.
`Q. Thank you.
`BY MR. HARE:
` MR. HARE: Could I ask the court
`Q. Anything else?
`A. Claim 12 of the '154 also includes a modified
` reporter to please hand the witness Edwards
` pressure adjustment factor. Claim 12 of
` Exhibit 7. Those are the unredacted
` the '154 also includes the limitation wherein
` infringement contentions.
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` the manifold pressure target is calculated to
`BY MR. HARE:
`11
` approximate the desired pressure set point
`Q. Could you please confirm for me that claim 20
`12
` for the air chamber as modified by the
` is not being --
`13
` pressure adjustment factor to account for
` THE COURT REPORTER: (Hands
`14
` differences between the sensing pressure and
` document.) I'm sorry, can you restate that?
`15
` the manifold and sensing pressure in the air
` I wasn't --
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` chamber.
` MR. HARE: Sorry.
`17
` So that clause is clearly related to
`BY MR. HARE:
`18
` the pressure adjustment factor and explicitly
`Q. Could you please confirm for me that the
`19
` refers to differences between sensing
` claim 20 of the '154 patent is not being
`20
` pressure in the manifold and sensing pressure
` asserted as meeting the claim elements of --
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` in the air chamber, which again is something
` for any ANM product?
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`PLANET DEPOS
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`American National Manufacturing Inc.
`Exhibit 1056
`IPR2019-00514
`Page 6
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`

`

`Transcript of George Edwards, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 6, 2019
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`A. Yes. Now with this in front of me, it
` appears my recollection was correct --
`Q. Okay.
`A. -- that claim 20 is not included.
`Q. Going back to my questions of any other
` differences, did we finish the -- finish that
` out?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. And that question was referring to the
` difference between the discussion of claim 1
` of the '174.
` MR. TOFT: And I'll object to the
` extent it calls for a legal conclusion.
` THE WITNESS: Those are the
` differences that I see right now regarding
` the pressure adjustment factor specifically
` and limited to the independent claims.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. How about the differences for -- with respect
` to the adjustment factor?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
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`6 (326 to 329)
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`328
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` chamber, and I do not see the phrase
` "configured to more accurately account for
` differences between sensing pressure in the
` manifold and sensing pressure in the air
` chamber" --
`Q. Okay.
`A. -- in claim 1 --
`Q. Anything else?
`A. -- of the '747.
`Q. All right. Any other claims?
`A. There is a slight difference in wording in
` claim 18 of the '154 which recites
` calculating an updated pressure adjustment
` factor based upon the adjustment factor
` error, whereas claim 1 of the '747 uses the
` word "modifying the pressure adjustment
` factor based upon the adjustment factor
` error."
`Q. Anything else?
`A. I just noticed another difference regarding
` the pressure adjustment factor from the
` previous --
`
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`Q. Go ahead and --
`BY MR. HARE:
`A. -- question that you were asking.
`Q. Did you understand my question? Same
`Q. You can go ahead and tell me.
` exercise, but with respect to the claim
`A. Claim 10 of the '747 includes a limitation of
` element adjustment factor.
` storing the modified pressure adjustment
`A. I understand that you're asking me what
` factor, and I do not think that there is a
` differences there are among the independent
` limitation of storing the modified pressure
` claims of the '747 and '154 with respect to
` adjustment factor in claim 1 --
` the adjustment factor error?
`Q. Okay. Anything else?
`Q. That's correct.
`A. -- of the '747.
` MR. TOFT: And object to the
`0
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
` extent it calls for a legal conclusion.
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` THE WITNESS: Claim 16 of the '747
`BY MR. HARE:
`12
` also uses the wording "calculating an updated
`Q. To be clear, I'm asking with respect to your
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` pressure adjustment factor based upon the
` analysis.
`14
`A. So one difference that I see with claim 12 of
` adjustment factor error," which is -- again,
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` the '154 is that claim 12 includes modifying
` it's a slight difference in the wording from
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` the pressure adjustment factor based upon the
` claim 1 of the '747.
`17
` pressure adjustment factor error to create a
` MR. HARE: Okay.
`18
` modified pressure adjustment factor
`BY MR. HARE:
`19
` configured to more accurately account for
`Q. Anything else?
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`A. Those are the differences that I see right
` differences between sensing pressure in the
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` manifold and sensing pressure in the air
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`Exhibit 1056
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`Page 7
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`Transcript of George Edwards, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 6, 2019
`330
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`7 (330 to 333)
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`Q. And if you could just turn to the cover of
` Edwards Exhibit 8, which is the '747 patent.
`A. (Complies.)
`Q. And you can put the '154 to the side for now.
`A. (Complies.)
`Q. Could you turn to Figure 1, please. It's the
` second page, sir.
`A. (Complies.)
`Q. Are you familiar with that diagram?
`A. Yes.
`Q. Do you understand that diagram?
`A. I have some understanding of this diagram,
` but my understanding is that this diagram
` refers primarily to structural and mechanical
` elements.
`Q. I understand you may not understand Figure 1
` in the level of detail as an engineer, but do
` you understand Figure 1 at least as -- in the
` level of simplicity that it's drawn in?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: I am familiar with
` it and have -- I have read and generally
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`Q. All right. Thank you.
` With the caveats you just noted,
` would it be fair to say that the independent
` claims of the '747 and the '154 patent are
` substantially similar with respect to the --
` with respect at least to the elements
` pressure adjustment factor and error
` adjustment factor?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form and to
` the extent -- I believe you mean adjustment
` factor error, if --
` MR. HARE: That's correct. I
` thought that's what I said, but --
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. Would you like me to just read the question
` back?
`A. Sure. Yeah, I also think you misspoke there.
` I think you meant pressure adjustment factor
` error, so if you could state your question
` again.
`Q. Let me see if I can clean those two things
` up.
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` With the caveats you noted, would it
` be fair to say that the independent claims of
` the 747 and the 154 patents are
` substantially similar with respect to the
` elements pressure adjustment factor and
` adjustment factor error?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: There are certainly
` significant similarities with respect to
` those claim terms.
` MR. HARE: Can we take a 30-second
` break.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We re off the
` record at 9:31 a.m.
` (Recess.)
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We re back on
` the record at 9:32 a.m.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. Could you do me a favor and hand Edwards
` Exhibit 7, the contentions, back to the court
` reporter, please.
`A. (Complies.)
`
` understand the description of it provided in
` the disclosure.
` MR. HARE: All right.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. So on Figure 1 you know where the bed is,
` right, you'd know where to sleep?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe I can
` generally identify the bed in this diagram.
` MR. HARE: Okay.
`0
`BY MR. HARE:
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`Q. And you can identify a hand controller to
`12
` adjust pressure, correct?
`13
`A. Yes, I believe I can.
`14
`Q. You can identify the pump, correct?
`15
`A. Yes, I believe I can.
`16
`Q. You can identify a control box, correct?
`17
`A. Yes, I believe so.
`18
`Q. What -- what number is the pump?
`19
`A. I believe the pump is number 20, and I'll
`20
` just confirm that by checking the disclosure.
`21
` (Reviews document.) Yes. The -- in
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`Exhibit 1056
`IPR2019-00514
`Page 8
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`Transcript of George Edwards, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 6, 2019
`334
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`8 (334 to 337)
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`A. (Complies.)
`Q. Do you see 14-A and 14-B, those are air
` chambers, correct, or air bladders?
`A. 14-A is identified as the first air chamber,
` and 14-B is identified as the second air
` chamber.
`Q. You see item 22, right?
`A. Yes, I do.
`Q. That's the remote control, correct?
`A. Yes.
`Q. And that would be used to send commands to
` the pump to increase pressure or potentially
` decrease pressure, correct?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: What's stated is
` that the remote control includes pressure
` increase and decrease buttons and allows the
` user to in increase or decrease the pressure.
` The description that I see of
` element 22 of Figure 1 doesn't explicitly
` refer to how it controls a pump directly in
` the way that you stated.
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` paragraph 3, I'm -- excuse me, column 3, the
` pump is identified as item 20 in Figure 1.
`Q. I'm going to -- would it be better if I just
` write pump next to it or would you prefer for
` me to just let you mark that exhibit?
`A. Um --
`Q. Let me state that again.
`A. -- if you want to write -- write on here, I'm
` happy to hand this to you.
`Q. Sure.
`A. (Hands document.)
`Q. I would like the record to reflect that I am
` writing the words "pump" next to 20.
` I'd like the record to reflect I'm
` actually going to highlight the item by 20
` with blue highlighter.
` MR. HARE: Would you like to see
` it, Counsel? (Indicating).
` MR. TOFT: Okay.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. I'm going to hand the exhibit back to the
` witness. (Hands document.)
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` Did I properly identify in blue
` highlighter the pump --
`A. I believe so.
`Q. -- on that exhibit? All right.
` And you can read my handwriting,
` correct?
`A. Yes, I can.
`Q. All right. Number 12, that's the bed,
` correct? If it's easier, you can flip
` back --
`A. That is --
`Q. Sorry. I was going to say you can use the
` other patent to flip back and forth.
`A. That is correct, in Figure 1, item 12 is
` identified as the bed.
`Q. Do you have clear handwriting if -- or as
` clear as mine, do you think?
`A. I believe I can write legibly, if that's what
` you're asking.
`Q. Yeah. Could you write "bed" next to
` Figure 12, please? I'm going to hand you a
` red pen. (Hands pen.)
`
` MR. HARE: Fair enough.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. Could you -- could you write -- it's a
` handheld remote control, correct, 22? And
` I'm looking at column 3, line --
`A. It is referred to --
`Q. -- 46 about --
`A. It is referred to as a handheld remote
` control in column 3.
`Q. Okay. That's -- it refers to that because
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` that's what it's supposed to be, correct?
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` MR. TOFT: Object to the extent it
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` calls for speculation.
`13
` THE WITNESS: I -- I think that --
`14
` yes, that's what -- that's what it says in
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` column 3.
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` MR. HARE: All right.
`17
`BY MR. HARE:
`18
`Q. Could you write "handheld remote control" by
`19
` 22?
`20
`A. (Complies.)
`21
`Q. Twenty-four is a control box, correct?
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`IPR2019-00514
`Page 9
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`340
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`Transcript of George Edwards, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 6, 2019
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`A. Twenty-four is a control box.
`Q. Could you write "control box" by 24?
`A. (Complies.)
`Q. Could you turn your attention to
` approximately columns 3 and 4, and this may
` make it go a little faster, and I'm just
` going to list some of the components in the
` control box and confirm that that's what's in
` there. And it's approximately column 3
` starting at paragraph -- or line 44.
` The control box includes the power
` supply, correct?
`A. (Reviews document.)
` MR. TOFT: Just to -- oh, sorry.
` THE WITNESS: I see -- I see that
` control box comprises power supply, which is
` element 34. And this is now referring to
` Figure 2.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. Control box on Figure 1 that identifies 24
` includes a power supply, correct?
`A. I do not see the depiction of the power
`
` figures?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. Do you not understand that?
` MR. TOFT: Same.
` THE WITNESS: I understand that
` typically a disclosure can describe
` alternative embodiments and alternative forms
` of an invention. So the inclusion of an
` element in one figure does not necessarily
` mean that it is required in all forms or
` embodiments that might be depicted in other
` figures.
`BY MR. HARE:
`Q. I m going to ask you a yes or no question,
` and if you can t answer it with a yes or no,
` just say I cannot answer it with a yes or no,
` otherwise I don t want anything else. Am I
` clear?
`A. Okay.
`Q. Do you understand the basic concept in
` patents that when the same numeral is used in
`34
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` supply in Figure 1, if that's what you're
` asking. Maybe I'm just not seeing it right
` now.
`Q. It's not depicted in there, but it includes
` it, correct?
`A. The control box depicted in Figure 2 includes
` it. So to the extent that those are the same
` control box, then the control box in Figure 1
` would include it also.
`Q. The control box depicted in Figure 2 is also
` numbered 24, correct?
`A. Yes, it is.
`Q. Okay. Figure 1 control box is 24, correct?
`A. Yes.
`Q. Those are the same component, correct?
`A. Regarding the mechanical and structural
` elements, I -- that's not something that is
` incorporated in my --
`Q. You understand if you read a basic patent
` that one -- you when use the same number for
` the same thing, they're the same thing
` whether they're in two -- two different
`
` multiple figures, they refer to the same
` component?
`A. I can't answer that with a yes or no.
`Q. Again, I'm going to ask you a yes or no
` question. Please answer it with a yes or no
` answer or you cannot answer it.
` Referring to the '747, the items,
` the pump 20 and the control box 24 -- strike
` that.
` Referring to the '747, the control
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` box 24 in Figure 1 is the same component as a
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` control box in Figure 2, correct?
`12
`A. I can't answer that with a yes or no.
`13
`Q. Thank you. The pump reflected in Figure 1,
`14
` is that depicted anywhere else in the figures
`15
` in the '747 patent? I believe Figure 2.
`16
`A. Figure 2 includes an element 20 that's
`17
` identified as a pump.
`18
`Q. Okay. I'm going to do the same thing, I'm
`19
` going to ask another yes or no question, same
`20
` conditions, if you can't answer, just say so.
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