`
`Transcript of William C. Messner,
`Ph.D.
`
`Date: December 11, 2019
`Case: American National Manufacturing Inc. -v- Sleep Number Corporation, et al.
`(PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email:: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`American National Manufacturing, Inc.
`Exhibit 1063
`IPR2019-00514
`Page 1
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`

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`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 11, 2019
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
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`REPRESENTING THE PETITIONER:
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` Mr. Kyle L. Elliott
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` Attorney at Law
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` Mr. Kevin S. Tuttle
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` Attorney at Law
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` Spencer Fane LLP
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` 1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1400
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`--------------------------------------------------
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`AMERICAN NATIONAL IPR2019-00497
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`MANUFACTURING INC., U.S. PATENT 8,769,747
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` Petitioner,
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`v.
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`SLEEP NUMBER CORPORATION IPR2019-00500
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`f/k/a SELECT COMFORT U.S. PATENT 9,737,154
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`CORPORATION,
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` Patent Owner.
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` kelliott@spencerfane.com
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`--------------------------------------------------
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` ktuttle@spencerfane.com
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` VOLUME I VIDEO DEPOSITION OF
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` WILLIAM C. MESSNER, Ph.D.
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`REPRESENTING THE PATENT OWNER:
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` MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA
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` WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 11, 2019
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` 9:10 A.M.
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`JOB NO.: 275000
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`PAGES: 1 - 306
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` Mr. Luke Toft
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` Attorney at Law
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` Fox Rothschild LLP
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` 222 South 9th Street, Suite 2000
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` Minneapolis, MN 55402
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` ltoft@foxrothschild.com
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`REPORTED BY: PATRICK J. MAHON, RMR, CRR
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`ALSO PRESENT: Jacob Arvold, Videographer
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` I N D E X
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`EXAMINATION:
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` BY MR. ELLIOTT - PAGE 9
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`EXHIBITS REFERRED TO:
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`NUMBER/DESCRIPTION PAGE
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`Exhibit 1................................... 16
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` Declaration of Dr. William
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` C. Messner In Support Of
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` Patent Owner's Response on
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` Patent '154 and CV
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` (170 pages)
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` DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM C. MESSNER, PH.D.,
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`HELD AT THE OFFICES OF:
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` FOX ROTHSCHILD LLP
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` 222 SOUTH 9TH STREET
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` MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA 55402-3338
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` Pursuant to Notice, before Patrick J.
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`Exhibit 2................................... 18
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`Mahon, Notary Public in and for the County of
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` Declaration of Dr. William
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`Hennepin, State of Minnesota.
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` C. Messner In Support Of
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` Patent '747 and CV
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` (170 pages)
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`Exhibit 3................................... 45
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` A New Adaptive Learning Rule
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` * * * * *
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` (10 pages)
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` (continued...)
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`American National Manufacturing, Inc.
`Exhibit 1063
`IPR2019-00514
`Page 2
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`

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`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 11, 2019
`5
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`2 (5 to 8)
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`EXHIBITS, continued:
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`EXHIBIT/DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 12.................................. 217
` Patent No.: US 7,022,113 B2,
` Lockwood et al.
` (69 pages)
`Exhibit 13.................................. 231
` Patent Number: 6,088,643
` (16 pages)
`Exhibit 14.................................. 239
` International Application
` Published Under the Patent
` Cooperation Treaty (PCT)
` (Page 250 - 285)
`Exhibit 15.................................. 261
` Patent Number: 5,904,172,
` Gifft et al
` (17 pages)
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`EXHIBITS, continued:
`EXHIBIT/DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 4................................... 64
` Patent 3,068,494
` (3 pages)
`Exhibit 5................................... 90
` Nonlinear Modeling and Control
` of a Mechanically Coupled
` Variable Resistance and Squeeze
` Pump for Pressure Regulation in
` Microfluidics
` (7 pages)
`Exhibit 6................................... 113
` Modeling and Control of a
` Nonlinear Mechanism for High
` Performance Microfluidic Systems
` (9 pages)
`Exhibit 7................................... 139
` Patent No.: US 8,769,747 B2,
` Mahoney et al.
` (16 pages)
` (continued...)
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`EXHIBITS, continued:
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`EXHIBIT/DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 8................................... 175
` Patent Number: 5,629,873,
` Mittal et al.
` (29 pages)
`Exhibit 9................................... 186
` Patent Number: 5,277,187,
` Pillsbury
` (23 pages)
`Exhibit 10.................................. 204
` Patent No.: US 9,737,154 B2,
` Mahoney et al.
` (20 pages)
`Exhibit 11.................................. 207
` Pub. No.: US 2007/0000559 A1,
` Ebel
` (10 pages)
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`
` (continued...)
`
` P R O C E E D I N G S
`WHEREUPON, the following proceedings were
`duly had:
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins disk number
`1 in the videotaped deposition of Dr. William C.
`Messner in the matter of American National
`Manufacturing Inc. versus Sleep Number
`Corporation, before the Patent Trial and Appeal
`Board, United States Patent and Trademark Office,
`Case Nos. IPR2019-00497 and IPR2019-00500.
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` Today's date is December 11th, 2018 (sic).
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`The time on the video monitor is 9:11 a.m.
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` The videographer today is Jacob Arvold,
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`representing Planet Depos. This video deposition
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`is taking place at 222 South 9th Street,
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`Suite 2000, Minneapolis, Minnesota.
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` Would counsel please voice identify
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`themselves and state whom they represent.
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` MR. ELLIOTT: Kyle Elliott with Spencer
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`Fane representing American National.
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` MR. TOFT: And Luke Toft with Fox
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`Rothschild representing Sleep Number Corporation.
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`American National Manufacturing, Inc.
`Exhibit 1063
`IPR2019-00514
`Page 3
`
`

`

`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 11, 2019
`9
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter
`today is Patrick Mahon, representing Planet Depos.
`Would the reporter please swear in the witness.
` (The oath was administered by the
`reporter.)
` WITNESS RESPONSE: I do.
` WILLIAM C. MESSNER, Ph.D.,
`a witness in the above-entitled proceedings, after
`having been first duly sworn, deposed under oath
`as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Messner. How are you?
` A Good morning. Very well. Thank you.
` Q I know -- and I'll get into depositions
`here in a little bit, so I know you've had them
`taken before, but I'll still go over a few ground
`rules so we have them on the record. Does that
`make sense?
` A I appreciate it.
` Q Yeah. So please answer questions
`verbally, not with a physical movement such as a
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` A Yes, I understand.
` Q Also, let me know if you need a break.
`The one rule about breaks is, you can't take a
`break while a question is pending. So I would
`just ask that if there is a question pending, that
`you answer the question, then we can go on a
`break.
` A Okay.
` Q Is there any reason why you can't give
`truthful testimony today?
` A No, no reason at all.
` Q Would you please state your full name for
`the record?
` A William Charles Messner.
` Q Thank you. And what's your current
`address, Dr. Messner?
` A 8 West Winkley Street, W-i-n-k-l-e-y,
`Amesbury, Massachusetts.
` Q And are you aware of the current matters
`before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board regarding
`U.S. Patent Nos. -- well, let me just start with
`one, regarding U.S. Patent No. 5,904,172?
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` A Yes.
` Q And also the matter before the Patent
`Trial and Appeal Board involving U.S. Patent No.
`9,737,154?
` A Yes.
` Q Great. Are you being compensated for
`attending today's deposition?
` A Yes.
` Q And how much are you being paid hourly?
` A $575 an hour.
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` Q And how much have you been paid so far for
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`the two referenced IPRs?
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` A Jee, I'm -- well, I've invoiced for a
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`bunch, and I've not been paid for everything just
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`yet. I believe it's on the order of $50,000, but
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`I'd have to check my records.
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` Q Is the 50,000 what you've invoiced or what
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`you've been paid?
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` A I believe that's what I've invoiced, but
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`honestly, I really would have to go back and check
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`my records.
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` Q To the best of your recollection, what's
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`PLANET DEPOS
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`nod or a shrug so the court reporter can record
`your answer; do you understand that?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q Excellent. You understand the deposition
`is being videotaped; right?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q And then also, if you would, wait for my
`question to be completed before you respond.
` A Will do.
` Q Okay. And sometimes your counsel may
`object, and so you might want to leave a little
`space for him to be able to do that when he needs
`to.
` If you ever have a question you don't
`understand, please let me know.
` A Will do.
` Q If you need it repeated, the court
`reporter can read it back for you.
` A Okay.
` Q If your counsel does object, you still
`need to answer the question, unless they
`specifically instruct you not to answer.
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`American National Manufacturing, Inc.
`Exhibit 1063
`IPR2019-00514
`Page 4
`
`

`

`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 11, 2019
`13
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`three?
` A I believe so.
` Q Okay.
`A Yeah.
` Q All right.
` A But again, I would have to check my
`records to make sure it's an accurate number.
` Q Do you consult with Sleep Number on any
`other matters?
` A No.
` Q Have you ever consulted with Comfortaire?
` A No.
` Q And do you know who Comfortaire is?
` A I've heard of them. I understand they're
`one of the players that either are still involved
`or at least in the past were involved in producing
`inflatable air mattresses.
` Q Do you know Sleep Number's previous name?
` A Not off the top of my head. I do remember
`that there was a name.
` Q Okay. I always got to ask this question
`in these cases of the witnesses. What kind of
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`the difference between what you've invoiced and
`what you've been paid so far?
` A You know, I can't remember. I just know
`that I tend to get paid on a -- approximately
`60 days. So my last invoice hasn't been paid yet,
`and the invoice before that hasn't been paid yet,
`yeah.
` Q Gotcha. And to the best of your
`recollection, what's the total amount you've
`invoiced?
` A Again, I think that's around $50,000, but
`I would have to check my records.
` Q And are you also aware of a third IPR
`that's been brought by Petitioner, American
`National?
` A I'm not sure which IPR you're referring
`to.
` Q That would be the IPR involving the '172
`patent, full patent.
` A So I believe that earlier you said the
`'172, so I think I've already said I was aware of
`that.
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` Q You are correct. I did, Dr. Messner. I
`read that incorrectly.
` Let me back up and let's try that again.
`So this time I'll do it in a compound. Are you
`currently aware, because this is what your
`testimony is pertaining to today --
` A That's right.
` Q -- are the Patent Trial and Appeal Board
`matters regarding U.S. Patent No. 9,737,154 and
`U.S. Patent No. 8,769,747?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And how much have you invoiced for
`those two IPR matters?
` A Oh, I see what you're asking. So you mean
`the IPR for the '154 and the '747 --
`Q Yes.
` A -- together --
` Q Yes.
` A -- versus the '172?
` Q Yes.
` A I can't separate them. I don't know.
` Q Okay. So the 50,000 is the total for all
`
`mattress do you use?
` A Oh. Well, it's not an inflatable air
`mattress. I don't remember what mattress it is,
`yeah.
` Q Let me go ahead and introduce a couple of
`exhibits here.
` MR. ELLIOTT: And thank you, Mr. Toft, for
`having copies of these made so I didn't have to
`lug them from Kansas City.
` MR. TOFT: Yeah. Sorry, there was three
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`of them. There was a little miscommunication
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`there, but...
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` MR. ELLIOTT: That's okay. I figured I'd
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`hand them back to you.
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` (Exhibit 1 was marked for identification.)
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`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
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` Q Dr. Messner, let me hand you what's been
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`marked as Messner Exhibit Number 1.
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` A Uh-huh.
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` Q If you would, please, take a moment to
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`review that, and after you've had a chance to
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`review it --
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`American National Manufacturing, Inc.
`Exhibit 1063
`IPR2019-00514
`Page 5
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`

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`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 11, 2019
`17
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` MR. TOFT: Sorry, for the record, can you
`let me know what order?
` MR. ELLIOTT: Yeah, yeah. These first two
`exhibits are just going to be his reports.
` MR. TOFT: I have a copy of them. I just
`needed to know what it was.
` MR. ELLIOTT: I'll put these behind me
`then.
` MR. TOFT: Thanks.
` A (Reviewing.) I believe that this is my
`original report regarding the '154. I did submit
`a supplemental report. I don't think that's this
`one. (Reviewing.)
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q Yeah, go ahead and take a moment longer to
`review it and make sure you're sure about what it
`is, please.
` A Okay. (Reviewing.) Yes, this is my
`original report.
` Q For which of the patents?
` A For the '154 patent.
` Q Great. Thank you.
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`5 (17 to 20)
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` Q Did you have to take any mechanical
`engineering-specific courses to obtain that
`Master's in mechanical engineering?
` A Yes.
` Q And what were those courses, Dr. Messner?
` A Oh, I would have to go look at my
`transcript, but they were courses on control
`systems, they were courses on mechanical design
`and so on, yeah.
` Q Anything on pneumatics?
` A I don't believe there was anything
`specifically on pneumatics.
` Q Having your Bachelor's in mathematics and
`the Master's in mechanical engineering, were there
`any types of courses that a Bachelor's of Science
`with mechanical engineering would have taken that
`you did not?
` A Could be, yes.
` Q Do you know what those classes would be?
` A There were some courses on thermodynamics
`and things like that, yeah.
` Q And just to kind of -- we'll get into also
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`(Exhibit 2 was marked for identification.)
` Q And then let me go ahead and hand you
`what's been marked as Exhibit Number 2. If you
`would, please, Dr. Messner, take a moment to
`review that and identify it for the record, if you
`can, please.
` MR. ELLIOTT: And, Mr. Toft, this should
`be for the '747 patent in his report.
` A (Reviewing.) Yes, this is my original
`report regarding the '747 patent.
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q If you can go ahead and turn to Exhibit
`Number 1, and go ahead and flip to paragraph 4.
`On paragraph 4 you indicate that you have got a
`Bachelor of Science in mathematics?
` A Yes, that's right.
` Q Do you have a Bachelor's degree in
`anything else?
` A No.
` Q And then you obtained a Master's in
`mechanical engineering; is that correct?
` A Yes.
`
`this here in a little bit, but you've actually
`taught at universities in mechanical engineering
`departments; is that correct, Dr. Messner?
` A That's right.
` Q As part of that, have you ever been
`involved in setting up the course work for a
`Bachelor's of Science in mechanical engineering?
` A You mean deriving the curriculum that is a
`Bachelor of Science? I'm not sure what you mean
`by that question.
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` Q Yes. I think you stated it better than I
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`did. So yeah.
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` A So setting up the curriculum; is that the
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`question?
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` Q Yes.
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` A Yes.
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` Q Okay. And so would you recall if there
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`would be Bachelor's of Science mechanical
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`engineering courses in that curriculum that you
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`wouldn't have taken, having gone through a
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`mathematics, then change over to the mechanical
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`engineering route?
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`American National Manufacturing, Inc.
`Exhibit 1063
`IPR2019-00514
`Page 6
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`

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`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 11, 2019
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` A Sure.
` Q That's a yes, there would be courses?
` A Yes, there would be courses that I hadn't
`taken.
` Q And do you know what those courses would
`be?
` A I'd have to go back and look at my record
`and their record, yeah.
` Q Sure. You said thermodynamics would be
`one of them?
` A Thermodynamics is one, yeah.
` Q Is thermodynamics a relatively easy or
`hard course in the mechanical engineering
`curriculum?
` A Well, it's often known as a very difficult
`course, but I think a lot of it has to do with how
`it's taught. So, for example, I teach automatic
`control systems. That's often known as a very,
`very difficult course, but people have found my
`course to be -- not easy, but well-taught, and
`therefore, something that they enjoy.
` Q Yeah, I had a wonderful thermodynamics
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`correct or compensate for those errors?
` A Well, there's lots of different ways of
`doing it. The way that we did it, or I did it,
`was to keep track of the errors and then use an
`adaptive algorithm to modify the feedforward
`portion of the control system.
` Q So you said, "We did it." Who else was
`working with you on that?
` A Well, I'm referring, broadly speaking, to
`my Ph.D. adviser.
` Q Okay. Who was that?
` A His name was Roberto Horowitz.
` Q Did you end up publishing any articles on
`the Ph.D. thesis?
` A Several, yes.
` Q And who were the coauthors on that?
` A Well, the first one would have been my
`adviser, and the second coauthor, I think, would
`have been a man named Mike Boals, B-o-a-l-s,
`and...
` Q Yeah, feel free to reference your CV. I
`know it's in there.
`
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`teacher whose name was Badru Yemur who started as
` A And so I'm trying to remember the -- but
`a pilot in the Persian Gulf.
`the fourth person was a man named Wei-Wen Kao.
` So you went on to also get your Ph.D. in
`But let's go take a look. (Reviewing.) Yeah, so
`mechanical engineering; is that correct?
`here it is, number 78 in my CV, and there are --
` A That's right.
`that's the initial -- number 78 is the initial
` Q And what was your dissertation subject for
`paper on that technique, and then there are one,
`your Ph.D.?
`two, three, four, five more papers -- I'm sorry,
` A The title of the dissertation was Learning
`four more papers. One is with a different person.
`Control.
` Q What were the years of those papers?
` Q And can you describe that for me, please?
` A Well, let's take a look. The first paper
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` A Yes. So this was a dissertation relating
`was published in 1991, the second paper in 1991,
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`to improving the performance of control systems
`the third paper in 1992, a fourth paper in 1993,
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`over repeated trials. So, for example, a robot
`and a fifth paper in 1993. Let's see, three of
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`arm attempting to trace out a circle, as it traced
`those papers were also presented at conferences,
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`out a circle, it would keep track of the errors,
`but they were, you know, less complete.
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`and then on the next trial, better and better and
` Q Now, you mentioned, as you were describing
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`better. I also applied that techniques, or those
`it, that you keep track of something. What was it
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`techniques to computer disk drives, and that's
`that you were describing that you keep track of?
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`really how I got started in the area of data
` A This would have been tracking error, so
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`storage systems.
`the difference between where you wanted the robot
`20
` Q So you mentioned that there can be errors
`arm to be and where it was.
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`as the robot arm is making the circle. How do you
` Q Okay.
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`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 11, 2019
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` A Yeah.
` Q And then, again, describe for me how you
`corrected for the error?
` A Well, I mean, this is the subject of the
`dissertation.
` Q Sure.
` A But basically kept track of the error. We
`kind of smoothed it out. This was one of the
`advances of our method, using integral, an
`integral equation, and this was fed back using a
`proportional gain, and then each point in the
`feedforward trajectory was modified.
` Q Okay. So, in other words, you measured
`something, you recorded it, and then you recorded
`it again, saw a difference, and then you would
`update it?
` MR. TOFT: Object to the extent it
`mischaracterizes.
` A No, that's not quite right.
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q Yeah, help me out.
` A Okay. So we would specify, draw a circle,
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` So in the next iteration, you would update
`this feedforward control so that it was a
`different control action at every point from the
`previous one. And this would continue until,
`essentially, there was no error at all, and the
`only control effort was from what we call the
`feedforward control.
` Q Okay.
` A It's a little like practicing the swing
`with a tennis racquet or a golf club or something
`like that.
` Q So you're updating a factor that's
`reducing that error every time; is that correct?
` A So I think that --
` MR. TOFT: Same objection.
`THE WITNESS: Sorry.
` A That's not quite right, and that's why
`this was quite different from what people had done
`in the past. In the past, what people had done
`for what we call adaptive control was to modify a
`single parameter. So let's say -- I talked
`earlier about the feedback control. There are
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`multiple different ways of doing feedback control,
`okay, and the robot would -- we would have
`but let's say it was what we call proportional
`initially no feedforward control, all based on the
`control, which means you would take the difference
`error between -- the control effort was all based
`between where you want to be and where you are,
`on the error between where the robot was and where
`multiply that by a number, and that would be the
`it is at that present time. It would draw,
`control effort. Okay? And you'd say, "Oh, that
`attempt to draw a circle the first time, right,
`didn't work so well." So we're going to modify
`but there would be -- let's say that circle lasted
`that number that multiplies the difference.
`ten seconds, to do what it was supposed to do in
`That's what they would have. So a single number
`ten seconds.
`was being adapted. But what we were changing was
` So at each point in time, maybe we were
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`the entire function, the entire trajectory. So it
`sampling at ten samples per second, okay, so at
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`was not a single number. It might be hundreds of
`each sample there was an error; right? We would
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`numbers.
`keep track of that; right? And then on the next
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`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
`iteration, we would have a feedforward command
`14
`that was different than the first one, since there
` Q And were the integral functions you were
`15
`wasn't any to begin with. And now this time,
`using in that part of that modification process?
`16
` A Yes. I mean, you know, we'd have to get
`again, the control effort would consist of two
`17
`into the mathematics of it. But basically, what
`aspects, one is this feedforward that's going to
`18
`allowed us to make this what we call stable system
`happen regardless and the other is this feedback,
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`is, it sort of averaged the error from before and
`which was related to the difference between the
`20
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`position you were at and the position you wanted
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`in this trajectory to come up with the new point
`to be. So now, hopefully, the error is smaller.
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`American National Manufacturing, Inc.
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`IPR2019-00514
`Page 8
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`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 11, 2019
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`in that feedforward portion. Yeah.
` Q Okay. And again, feel free to
`recharacterize what I'm going to say, because I'm
`trying to understand it. In reading through the
`article, it's a mess, because I haven't been in a
`calculus class for 27 years.
` A Oh. So you've read the article?
` Q Yeah.
`A Yeah. Okay.
` Q I've looked at it.
` A Okay.
` Q "Read" is maybe a little bit strong.
` A It would be helpful if we had it so I
`could explain it to you.
` Q I may have it in a minute.
` A Okay. I don't have it up here with me
`right now.
` But basically, you're perceiving an error
`in a system, you are modifying something within
`that system, using that modified something to
`reduce error?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form. Object to the
`
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` MR. TOFT: Yeah.
` MR. ELLIOTT: -- or ambiguous, those kind
`of words, I think, are actually mentioned in the
`trial guide.
` MR. TOFT: Yeah, so for compound, vague,
`confusing and stuff like that, unless otherwise
`mentioned, our agreement is that "object to form"
`covers those?
` MR. ELLIOTT: Yeah, and I think that's
`what the rules require.
` MR. TOFT: I agree. That's fine.
` MR. ELLIOTT: Okay.
` Can you please read back the question --
`well, no, actually, I'm going to try and rephrase
`that.
` A Thank you.
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q And what I'm trying to get at is, you
`know, you talked about how you can take a controls
`class, and they are a difficult class, I remember
`mine well, and you boil that down so people
`understand it, and that's what I'm looking for
`
`30
`extent it mischaracterizes, I guess, the testimony
`here, is boiling this down so people can
`or the document.
`understand it, that there's an error in a system.
` MR. ELLIOTT: Are we limited to saying
` So here's the question: So what the
`"objection to form" on these, or what's our rule
`thesis is about is, you measure an error in a
`on these? I'm always confused by that.
`system, you adjust for that error, and as you do
` MR. TOFT: I guess that's what we've been
`another iteration, okay, you perceive the error
`doing. But on questions like "compound" and
`again, and you modify your adjustment for that
`"confusing" and stuff like that, so that it
`error?
`doesn't -- so it's not --
` MR. TOFT: So objection to the extent it
`MR. ELLIOTT: Right.
`mischaracterizes and form.
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` A Yeah, so it's more complicated than that
` MR. TOFT: But other objections, I
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`in this situation, because it's not a single
`believe, are still appropriate, like "asked and
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`error. It's an error that -- you're keeping track
`answered" and "mischaracterizes testimony" and
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`of all the errors over time. So it's not like
`stuff like that.
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`you're trying to reach, let's say, a specific
` MR. ELLIOTT: Yeah. We've got the trial
`15
`temperature, or in this case, pressure.
`aspect of it. But I mean, you know, as far as --
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`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
`unless I ask for the specific basis for it, I
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`think it's just "objection to form," but that's
` Q Pressure.
`18
` A Right? And there, you're looking for a
`okay. I'm not...
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`final value. Here, we're actually looking at
` MR. TOFT: In which regard?
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`movement. And we care about the movement, not
` MR. ELLIOTT: For compound, unclear
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`just at the end of the cycle, but the movement all
`questions, because "unclear" can be coaching --
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`Page 9
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`9 (33 to 36)
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`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D.
`Conducted on December 11, 2019
`33
`the way through, in the same way that you would be
`concerned with swinging a tennis racquet properly;
`right? It's not just where the tennis racquet
`ends up at the end of your swing. It matters
`where it is all the way through. And so it's not
`a single error, and that's where I would say that
`your question doesn't make sense, or at least I
`would have to say, "No, that's not what we do."
` Q Well, what's happening in your
`dissertation is far more complex than what's
`happening in the '154 and '747 patents?
` A I would say so.
` Q And because in the '154 and '747 patents
`you're dealing with one error?
` MR. TOFT: Objection to the extent it
`mischaracterizes.
` MR. ELLIOTT: That's an inappropriate
`objection. I never said that phrase before, and I
`think "mischaracterizes" is coaching the witness.
`I think that has to be an objection to form. We
`can look at that on a break if you want to,
`Mr. Toft, but I don't think that's a proper
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` MR. TOFT: Same objection.
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q Go ahead.
` A Well, one error, again, I think, is also
`not quite correct. And the reason why I say that
`is, there's an attempt to reach a pressure. The
`pressure is not what is desired, and so there's a
`consideration that, oh, that that difference
`represents -- is called an error. However, since
`it's done repeatedly, it's not just one error;
`right? There's an error the first time, an error
`the second time and so on, potentially errors the
`second time. So I'm...
` Q So in the '154 patent and the '747 patent,
`you're dealing with one type of error?
` A Again, I wouldn't characterize it that
`way.
` Q How would you characterize it?
` A Okay. So what I would characterize is
`that there's a single quantity which is measured,
`and the error relates to that single quantity, as
`opposed to what's happening and at a specific end
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`objection to voice.
` MR. TOFT: Mischaracterization --
` MR. ELLIOTT: Uh-huh.
` MR. TOFT: -- of documents?
` MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, I think that's correct,
`because a mischaracterization of a document is
`going to suggest to the witness, you know, coach
`the witness that they need to look at a document.
` MR. TOFT: I think just because an
`objection, an appropriate objection, you know,
`whether or not it suggests anything to the
`witness, doesn't mean that objection is
`inappropriate. If you're going to characterize
`his testimony or a document without giving it to
`him or allowing him to characterize it himself, I
`think that that is an objectionable question.
` MR. ELLIOTT: Can you read my question
`back, please?
` (The record was read by the reporter as
`follows:
` "Q And because '154 and '747 patents
`you're dealing with one error?")
`
`of a cycle; right?
` Again, it's like the robot arm. I only
`care -- if I only cared about where it was at the
`end of the cycle, that would be much more similar
`to what's going on in the '747 and the '154. But
`that's not what we did. We cared about how it got
`there, and that's not what's happening in the '747
`and the '154, as best I understand what these
`people are trying to do.
` Q But in both of these systems, there's an
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`error, that you are dynamically updating a
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`correction of that error?
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` A Yeah, I hate to be pedantic here, but
`13
`you're not updating the error. You're updating
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`another parameter in the hope that you will ha