`
`Transcript of William C. Messner,
`Ph.D., Volume 2
`
`Date: December 12, 2019
`Case: American National Manufacturing Inc. -v- Sleep Number Corporation, et al.
`(PTAB)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email:: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`American National Manufacturing, Inc.
`Exhibit 1053
`IPR2019-00500
`Page 1
`
`

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`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 12, 2019
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`1 (307 to 310)
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
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`REPRESENTING THE PETITIONER:
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` Mr. Kyle L. Elliott
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` Attorney at Law
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` Mr. Kevin S. Tuttle
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` Attorney at Law
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` Spencer Fane LLP
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` 1000 Walnut Street, Suite 1400
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`--------------------------------------------------
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`AMERICAN NATIONAL IPR2019-00497
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`MANUFACTURING INC., U.S. PATENT 8,769,747
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` Petitioner,
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`v.
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`SLEEP NUMBER CORPORATION IPR2019-00500
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`f/k/a SELECT COMFORT U.S. PATENT 9,737,154
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`CORPORATION,
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` Patent Owner.
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` kelliott@spencerfane.com
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`--------------------------------------------------
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` ktuttle@spencerfane.com
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` VOLUME II VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
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` WILLIAM C. MESSNER, Ph.D.
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`REPRESENTING THE PATENT OWNER:
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` MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA
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` THURSDAY, DECEMBER 12, 2019
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` 9:13 A.M.
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`JOB NO.: 275001
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`PAGES: 307 - 436
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` Mr. Luke Toft
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` Attorney at Law
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` Fox Rothschild LLP
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` 222 South Ninth Street, Suite 2000
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` Minneapolis, MN 55402
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` ltoft@foxrothschild.com
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`REPORTED BY: PATRICK J. MAHON, RMR, CRR
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`ALSO PRESENT: Jacob Arvold, Videographer
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` I N D E X
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`EXAMINATION:
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` BY MR. ELLIOTT - PAGES 314 and 419
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` BY MR. TOFT - PAGE 380
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`NUMBER/DESCRIPTION PAGE
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`Exhibit 16.................................. 406
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` email correspondence
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`EXHIBITS REFERRED TO:
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` DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM C. MESSNER, Ph.D.,
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`HELD AT THE OFFICES OF:
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` FOX ROTHSCHILD LLP
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` 222 SOUTH NINTH STREET
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` MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA 55402-3338
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` Pursuant to Notice, before Patrick J.
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`NUMBER/DESCRIPTION PAGE
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`Mahon, Notary Public in and for the County of
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`Exhibit 1................................... 386
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`Hennepin, State of Minnesota.
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` Declaration of Dr. William
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` C. Messner In Support Of
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` Patent Owner's Response on
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` Patent '154 and CV
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` (170 pages)
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` (continued...)
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`American National Manufacturing, Inc.
`Exhibit 1053
`IPR2019-00500
`Page 2
`
`

`

`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 12, 2019
`
`2 (311 to 314)
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`313
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` WHEREUPON, the following proceedings were
`duly had:
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins disk number
`1, Volume II, in the videotaped deposition of
`Dr. William C. Messner in the matter of American
`National Manufacturing Inc. versus Sleep Number
`Corporation, before the Patent Trial and Appeal
`Board, United States Patent and Trademark Office,
`Case Nos. IPR2019-00497 and IPR2019-00500.
` Today's date is December 12th, 2019. The
`time on the video monitor is 9:13 a.m.
` The videographer today is Jacob Arvold,
`representing Planet Depos.
` This video deposition is taking place at
`222 South 9th Street, Suite 2000, Minneapolis,
`Minnesota.
` Will counsel voice identify themselves and
`state whom they represent.
` MR. ELLIOTT: Kyle Elliott with Spencer
`Fane, representing American National, Petitioner.
`And with me today also, and yesterday as well, is
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`EXHIBITS REFERRED TO, continued:
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`EXHIBIT/DESCRIPTION PAGE
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`Exhibit 2................................... 413
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` Declaration of Dr. William
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` C. Messner In Support Of
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` Patent Owner's Response on
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` Patent '747 and CV
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` (170 pages)
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`Exhibit 4................................... 412
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` Patent 3,068,494
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`Exhibit 7................................... 339
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` Patent No.: US 8,769,747 B2,
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` Mahoney et al.
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` (16 pages)
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`Exhibit 8................................... 339
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` Patent Number: 5,629,873,
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` Mittal et al.
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` (29 pages)
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` (continued...)
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`Mr. Kevin Tuttle, also with Spencer Fane,
`representing American National.
` MR. TOFT: Luke Toft, representing Sleep
`Number Corporation, with Fox Rothschild.
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter
`today is Patrick Mahon, representing Planet Depos.
`And we may proceed.
` WILLIAM C. MESSNER, Ph.D.,
`a witness in the above-entitled proceedings, after
`having been first duly sworn on December 11, 2019,
`0
`deposed under oath as follows:
`11
` EXAMINATION
`12
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
`13
` Q Okay. Good morning, Dr. Messner. How are
`14
`you?
`15
` A Good morning. Fine. Thank you.
`16
` Q Good. You understand you're still under
`17
`oath?
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` A Yes, I do.
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` Q Okay. And did you have any conversations
`20
`with counsel between our conclusion last night and
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`this morning?
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`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`EXHIBITS REFERRED TO, continued:
`
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`EXHIBIT/DESCRIPTION PAGE
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`Exhibit 9................................... 382
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` Patent Number: 5,277,187,
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` Pillsbury
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` (23 pages)
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`Exhibit 10.................................. 424
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`1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1
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` Patent No.: US 9,737,154 B2,
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` Mahoney et al.
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` (20 pages)
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`Exhibit 11.................................. 384
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` Pub. No.: US 2007/0000559 A1,
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` Ebel
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` (10 pages)
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`American National Manufacturing, Inc.
`Exhibit 1053
`IPR2019-00500
`Page 3
`
`

`

`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 12, 2019
`315
`
`3 (315 to 318)
`
`317
`-- sorry, measuring the temperature usually at one
`location in a room.
` Q And are the offsets used by the '154 and
`'747 patents a way of compensating for error in
`that system?
` A So when you refer to the offsets, are you
`referring to the adjustment?
` Q Yeah, I think yesterday, definitionally,
`we defined the offset as when you use the additive
`slash subtractive --
` A Right.
` Q -- adjustment factor; is that correct?
` A That's right.
` Q Okay. So is that offset used by the '154
`and '747 patent a way of compensating for error in
`that system?
` A Yes, it is.
` Q Okay. And are offsets used in other
`systems to compensate for error?
` A Yes.
` Q Were they used in 2006 in other systems to
`compensate for error?
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` A Nothing of substance regarding the
`testimony.
` Q Nothing regarding the testimony?
` A Nothing, uh-huh.
` Q Okay. Any conversations with anyone else
`regarding the testimony?
` A No.
` Q Okay. I'll try and kind of pick up
`suddenly where we left off. And if we need to, I
`can go back into some foundational stuff.
` A Sure. Uh-huh.
` Q So does error exist in every system?
` A Does air exist?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q Yeah, e-r-r-o-r?
` A Oh, error.
` Q Error.
` A Error. I'm sorry.
` MR. TOFT: Oh.
` A Got it.
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
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` A Yes.
` Q Yeah. I knew there would be something
` Q And is Mittal one example of using offsets
`foundational when you start off that lovely.
`for correction of error?
`Sorry, let me start over again.
` A Yes.
` A Yes.
` Q Now, you mentioned in your example of
` Q Does error, e-r-r-o-r, exist in almost
`temperature, you talked about deviation?
`every system?
` A Yes.
` A I mean, depends on what you mean by
` Q Could deviation be defined as a band?
`"error." I mean, so to the extent that a
` A So I would say it this way: Deviation
`dimension or a value is not exactly the same as
`might fall within a band. I wouldn't say
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`some desired value, yeah, sure.
`deviation is a band.
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` Q And do you typically work as, you know,
` Q Okay.
`12
`engineers, problem solvers to try and compensate
` A I wouldn't use that term.
`13
`for the error in the system?
` Q Okay. So deviation would typically be
`14
` A Certainly. I mean, sometimes some error
`expressed in the context of error as a plus or
`15
`is acceptable. I mean, when we think about
`minus; is that a fair statement?
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`engineering drawings and the like, there's
` A That's usually the way it's -- if it's a
`17
`tolerances. Same thing in, you know, temperatures
`single quantity, yes. I mean, if you're talking
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`in a room, we allow for some small amount of
`about falling within a certain, say, position,
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`deviation from a desired temperature. And even
`landing a probe on another planet, when we talk
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`within, say, let's again think about temperature,
`about a landing ellipse, in that case it's not a
`21
`then the temperature in a room is not the same
`single number. They look at an acceptable range,
`22
`everywhere. So you're only measuring the pressure
`PLANET DEPOS
`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
`
`318
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`American National Manufacturing, Inc.
`Exhibit 1053
`IPR2019-00500
`Page 4
`
`

`

`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 12, 2019
`319
`an acceptable area in which they can drop the...
` Q So the bands of Mittal, they give a
`pressure range; correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And do the '747 and '154 patents
`anywhere disclose a band or a range of pressures?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
` A I'm not sure. I'd like to take a moment
`to...
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q Let me direct you to Exhibit Number 7.
`That's the '747 patent.
` A Yes.
` Q You can look at that one.
` A Okay.
` Q You had indicated yesterday that the
`specifications are identical between the two; is
`that correct?
` A They are, except for some line numbers and
`column numbers, as you pointed out.
` Q Okay.
` A Yeah. Okay. Oh, you were directing me to
`320
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`322
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`this. Did you want me to --
`making sure that things fit within each other.
` Q All right. Okay. Fair. Could I use an
` Q Yeah. So the question I'm asking is, do
`absolute value to express that type of tolerance?
`the '747 and '154 patents anywhere disclose a
` A You mean the plus-minus kind? I'd say
`range or a band of pressures?
`potentially. It depends on how it's worded, yes.
` MR. TOFT: Same objection.
` Q Okay. And if I'm using the plus-minus as
` MR. ELLIOTT: And I'm sorry, the objection
`a tolerance, would that be considered a range?
`was?
` A I think one would be able to translate the
` MR. TOFT: Compound.
`plus-minus into a range.
` MR. ELLIOTT: Okay.
` A I don't recall them using the specific
` Q And would that range also then be a band,
`0
`word "band." The closest one would potentially...
`in terms of temperature, for example?
`11
` A Could be. I'd have to look at the exact
`Let me restate that.
`12
`circumstances.
` So the '747 and the '154 specifications
`13
`and the claims, as I recall, refer to
` Q Okay.
`14
` A Yeah, yeah.
`"substantially equal." So substantially equal
`15
`indicates not exactly equal potentially. So in
` Q So let me direct your attention to the
`16
`that sense, there may be a band, but nothing is
`'747 patent. The relevant portion really starts
`17
`specified in terms of what's the lower bound and
`on column 7, line 51, and carries over to column
`18
`what's the upper bound.
`8. But the specific language that I think will be
`19
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
`of interest here is in column 8, lines 1 and 2.
`20
`Take a moment to take a look at that, if you
` Q If I do an absolute value of something to
`21
`would, please, Dr. Messner.
`define a range or a band, would that be -- well,
`22
`PLANET DEPOS
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`4 (319 to 322)
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`would an absolute value defining around a target,
`would that be a range or a band?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
` A So when you say "an absolute value," you
`mean that a quantity minus another quantity falls
`within -- the absolute value of the difference
`between two quantities is a number?
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q Well, let me introduce a different term.
` A Okay.
` Q Let's start with, I think, one that's a
`little easier to deal with and that's tolerances?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. So tolerances are typically
`expressed as a plus or minus; correct?
` A Not necessarily.
` Q Okay.
` A So tolerances in drawings are often
`plus-minus, say, a number, but frequently they're
`plus something, minus another number, or even
`zero. So you have to be at least this big or no
`bigger than this (motioning). Again, it's for
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`American National Manufacturing, Inc.
`Exhibit 1053
`IPR2019-00500
`Page 5
`
`

`

`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 12, 2019
`323
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` A (Reviewing.) Okay.
` Q So do the '747 and '154 patents disclose
`anywhere a range or the use of a band?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
` A They disclose this acceptable -- excuse me
`one second. I want to use the quote that... I
`want to quote the patent.
` (Reviewing.) All right. So what the
`patent says is, quote, "If the absolute value of
`the difference between the sampled manifold
`pressure and the desired pressure setpoint
`selected by the user is less than or equal to the
`acceptable error, then no adjustment is required,
`and the pressure adjustment method ends at step
`156 where microprocessor 36 determines that the
`pressure adjustment process is complete."
` So the question was, is that a band;
`right?
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q Yes.
` A I mean, I think that one could interpret
`that range as a band around the acceptable --
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`5 (323 to 326)
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` (The record was read by the reporter as
`follows:
` "Q And then you take the absolute value
`of that, and that's where the plus-minus comes in;
`is that correct?")
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q I think that truncated the question a
`little bit. I'll restate it.
` A Yeah, if you don't mind.
` Q So in the sentence here, it says -- the
`sentence before what you quoted in before is, "The
`acceptable error," e-r-r-o-r, "may be any value
`greater than or equal to zero." Right?
` A That's right.
` Q And since it's a value greater than or
`equal to zero, if you're taking the absolute value
`of that, it's understood that that's plus or
`minus; is that correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. So is that plus or minus, whatever
`the selected error -- or whatever the acceptable
`error is -- I'm going to start over.
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` So is the absolute value, that plus or
`around the setpoint, but it's not the way the
`minus of the acceptable error here in column 8, is
`bands are used in Mittal, for example.
`that a band?
` Q But it's a band?
` A So what I would say it is, it defines a
` A Could be a band, yeah.
`band around that setpoint.
` Q Okay. The sentence above what you quoted
` Q Okay. And if the user enters a desired
`says, "The acceptable error may be any value
`pressure and that desired pressure is within that
`greater than or equal to zero." Is that correct?
`band, does the system make an adjustment to the
` A Yes.
`pressure?
` Q And then you take the absolute value of
` A (Reviewing.) Just one moment while I look
`0
`that, and that's where the plus-minus comes in; is
`back at the Fig. 6 to which it refers.
`11
`that correct?
` Q You bet.
`12
` A (Reviewing.) Right. Sorry, I got -- let
` MR. ELLIOTT: And you may want to mark
`13
`me just read back one sentence, if you don't mind?
`that one. I'll have you read that back, please.
`14
` Q Yeah, take your time.
` A (Reviewing.) Okay, I will ask that that
`15
` A (Reviewing.) Yeah, I got confused for a
`question be...
`16
`second because there's the -- it uses the term
` MR. ELLIOTT: Can you please read back
`17
`"acceptable," quote-unquote, "'error.'" That's
`the question for him?
`18
`actually right out of the patent. So I was
` (The record was read by the reporter as
`19
`confused about what error they were talking about.
`follow:
`20
` Okay, could you repeat your question? I'm
` "Q And if the user enters a desired
`21
`sorry.
`pressure and that desired pressure is within that
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` MR. ELLIOTT: Please read it back for him.
`PLANET DEPOS
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`American National Manufacturing, Inc.
`Exhibit 1053
`IPR2019-00500
`Page 6
`
`

`

`Transcript of William C. Messner, Ph.D., Volume 2
`Conducted on December 12, 2019
`327
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`6 (327 to 330)
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`patent; correct?
` A Yes. I haven't studied it all that
`closely for this deposition, but yes, I'm familiar
`with it.
` Q It's a prior art reference in this
`deposition; correct?
` A That I understand.
` Q Okay. So as the Mahoney patents, the '154
`and '747 patents, as they add the additional
`functionality of an offset to the functionality of
`the '172 patent, would that require additional
`programming over the programming necessary for the
`'172 patent?
` A Well, certainly, there would be a
`different program, and so -- because the
`additional code would have to be added. Now,
`whether that also included removing some other
`code, I'm not sure, but certainly a modification
`would be needed, yeah.
` Q You'd have to draft additional lines of
`code that would implement the offset; correct?
` A Absolutely. Certainly.
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`band, does the system make an adjustment to the
`pressure?")
` A So if we assume that this acceptable error
`defines a band, then if the user selection falls
`within that band, no pressure adjustment is
`completed --
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q Okay.
` A -- or no pressure adjustment occurs.
` Q So essentially, the answer to the question
`is yes?
` A I'm sorry, I...
` MR. ELLIOTT: Read it back for him one
`more time, please.
` A Yeah, I apologize.
` STENOGRAPHIC REPORTER: Did you want me to
`reread the question that I had just read?
` MR. ELLIOTT: Yes, please.
` (The record was read by the reporter as
`follow:
` "Q And if the user enters a desired
`pressure and that desired pressure is within that
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`band, does the system make an adjustment to the
`pressure?")
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q So I think actually the answer is no to
`that. And I apologize. So let me restate the
`question.
` A Okay.
` Q So if the user enters a desired pressure
`and the desired pressure is within the band of
`this acceptable error, so within a plus above that
`desired pressure or a minus below it, does the
`system then adjust pressure?
` A So in the embodiment that's described
`there, no pressure adjustment occurs if the
`desired pressure falls within the plus and the
`minus acceptable error of the desired setpoint,
`yeah.
` Q All right. And that acceptable error,
`plus or minus, that would be a band?
` A Yes, people would consider that to be a
`band around the desired setpoint.
` Q Now, you're familiar with the Gifft '172
`
` Q And you'd have to draft additional lines
`of code that would implement the multiplicative
`divisional adjustment factor; correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And that would require additional
`processing power; correct?
` A Possibly, yes.
` Q If you took a bunch of things away, maybe
`the overall would be less?
` A Right.
`0
` Q But if I just added the offset and the
`11
`multiplicative factor, then it would require extra
`12
`processing power; correct?
`13
` A If no other modification is made, you're
`14
`adding lines of code, additional computation is
`15
`required, yes. But I would say that one of the
`16
`aspects of this patent is that it's quite possible
`17
`that other lines of code could be removed, simply
`18
`because one doesn't have to keep doing this
`19
`hunting.
`20
` Q And the additional lines of code would
`21
`require additional memory; correct?
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`331
`
` A Yes, absent removing other things that
`would be required.
` Q Sure. And actually, the additional
`programming, processing, and memory required for
`implementing the offsets in the multiplicative
`adjustment factors would actually be quite modest,
`would it not?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
` A Yes, I think it would be modest.
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q And would have been modest still in 2006;
`correct?
` A I think that the actual implementation of
`those few lines of code would be modest. There
`may be other sort of -- I want to call it
`boilerplate, but that's not quite the word, quite
`the right word, error checking and the like that
`might be required.
` Q And if you implemented the offsets that
`are taught by Mittal, about the same amount of
`programming would be necessary; correct?
` A I kind of --
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`7 (331 to 334)
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`333
`
` Q Thank you.
` A So there's a lot in there, right, and
`somebody that would want to implement the system
`of Mittal, it's not just --
` Q But that's not the question, Dr. Messner.
` A I know.
` Q Okay.
` A I understand that's not the question, but
`that's the answer, because the answer is -- I
`don't think it can be done in isolation, but I'll
`try to answer your question without pontificating,
`if you will.
` Okay. So if you could ask the question
`again? I'm sorry.
` MR. ELLIOTT: Go ahead and read it back
`for him, please.
` (Stenographic Reporter is showing screen
`to Mr. Elliott, wondering what question to read.)
` STENOGRAPHIC REPORTER: I don't know where
`you want me --
` MR. ELLIOTT: I'll just do it again.
`Thanks, Patrick.
`
`332
`
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
` A -- disagree, and the reason is, it depends
`on which offsets you're talking about, plus the
`bands. So if we go to Mittal, which I had in
`front of me --
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q Exhibit Number 8.
` A Yeah, thank you. There it is, right
`there. So there's a lot more to Mittal than
`simply the offsets. Right.
` Q But the question is, if you implement the
`offsets taught by Mittal, is the amount of
`programming about the same as what you would have
`to do it for the '154 and '747 patents?
` A Well, here's where I have to qualify the
`answer; right? I don't think that somebody would
`look to Mittal just to implement the offsets that
`are indicated in steps 276, 296 --
` Q And which figure are you referring to
`there?
` A -- 326 and 306. So I'm looking at
`Fig. 5B.
`
`334
` STENOGRAPHIC REPORTER: There's a lot in
`there.
` MR. ELLIOTT: There was a lot of
`pontification in there, yes, I agree.
` A My apologies.
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q So implementing the offsets that are in
`Mittal would require about the same amount of
`programming, processing power, and memory as
`implementing the offset in the Mahoney patents?
`0
` A So implementing merely the portion of
`11
`Mittal that includes the offsets would be about
`12
`the same, but --
`13
` Q Thank you.
`14
` A -- it would be part of a larger effort.
`15
` Q You had mentioned at one point yesterday
`16
`when I used the term "structure" about that
`17
`implicating means plus function; do you recall
`18
`that?
`19
` A Well, I just know, with my understanding
`20
`of patent law, that one refers to a means plus
`21
`function for the corresponding structure, and so I
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`Conducted on December 12, 2019
`335
`
`8 (335 to 338)
`
`337
`
` Q Do you recall if "pressure monitoring
`means" appears anywhere in the '154 or '747
`patents?
` A I don't recall, but it was certainly
`not -- it was not a term that was at issue in this
`litigation. So I just want to make sure that I'm
`addressing the correct term. That's all.
` And so you asked about pressure monitoring
`means from paragraph 94. So here I am at 94, and
`I'm ready to address pressure sensing means.
` Q I didn't ask about pressure monitoring
`means in paragraph 94.
` A Yeah, I misheard your question. So I
`apologize about that.
` Q Okay.
` A I was answering about pressure monitoring
`means, and that was a mistake too, because I
`misheard your question. Okay. So now...
` Q So pressure sensing means that we're
`talking about, does the pressure sensing means
`include a transducer?
` A It could, yes.
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`just want to be careful that I don't get tied up
`into some means-plus-function analysis when
`another analysis is appropriate.
` Q So are you familiar with the term
`"pressure sensing means," as used in the patents?
` A The "pressure sensing means," I believe,
`is a term that is at issue in the '172 litigation.
` Q But it's in your report, paragraph 94;
`correct?
` A Let's take a look.
` Q And I'm referring to -- in your report,
`I'm still using Exhibit Number 1 for the -500 IPR
`on the '154 patent.
` A Right. Did you say it's paragraph 94?
` Q Yes, at page 61 of the report, exhibit
`page number 64.
` A Right. (Reviewing.) Yes, so I address
`pressure sensing means.
` Q So what would be --
` A I'm sorry.
` Q I'm sorry. Okay, go ahead.
` A (Reviewing.) The term that I'm getting --
`336
`
`338
`
`I'm trying to make sure that I'm answering the
`question about the correct term. So my
`understanding is that with respect to the '172
`litigation, there are several proposed structures
`for pressure monitoring means, the PMM, PMM1,
`PMM2, and PMM3. This is what I recall. So
`"pressure sensing means" is a different term, and
`here it is addressed.
` Q Does pressure monitoring means appear
`anywhere in any of the three patents in suit, the
`'172, '154, or '747?
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
` A I'm sorry, say it again, please?
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q Let me address Mr. Toft's objection. Does
`the phrase "pressure monitoring means" appear
`anywhere in the '172 patent to Gifft?
` A I just don't remember. I remember that
`there's -- I'd have to go back and look, but I
`recall that there is a -- something with a PMM1,
`PMM2, and PMM3, and so I can't remember what it
`stands for.
`
` Q What other device would be used in place
`of a transducer in the context of pressure sensing
`means?
` A Barometer?
` Q That's the first one that came to my mind.
` A Yeah, yeah. So I mean, this isn't
`addressed here. And what else might be a part of
`that structure? You know, that hasn't been
`addressed by petitioner.
` Q Has it been addressed by the '172 patent?
`0
` A I don't know.
`11
` Q Has it been addressed by the '154 or '747
`12
`patents?
`13
` A I mean, when you say "addressed," I'm --
`14
`the "pressure sensing means" is a term in the
`15
`petition, and I did not see any -- I'm just
`16
`reading from my paragraph.
`17
` Q Well, try and stick to the question,
`18
`Doctor.
`19
` A Okay. I'm sorry.
`20
` Q Yeah.
`21
` MR. ELLIOTT: Why don't you go ahead and
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`341
`I'd say, generally speaking, one would refer to a
`transducer, but potentially -- I mean, the patent
`at least contemplates a possibility of some other
`method for sensing pressure.
` Q How does a barometer work?
` A So there's the sort of standard -- well,
`there's many -- there's a bunch of different
`barometers. The one that we're probably most
`familiar with is a mercury column barometer, where
`the height of the mercury column indicates the
`pressure. Higher pressure is higher and lower
`pressure is the lower. But there are other kinds
`of barometers, which would just be purely
`mechanical or electric mechanical. But there may
`be other ways of sensing pressure.
` Q And what are those other ways?
` A Well, for example, I could look at the
`expansion of a membrane, an enclosed membrane,
`balloon, a tube, you know, anything, yeah.
` Q Okay. Expansion of an enclosed membrane,
`that sounds like a transducer to me?
` A But it might not be; right?
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`read the question back.
` (The record was read by the reporter as
`follows:
` "Q Has it been addressed by the '154 or
`'747 patents?")
` A Well, what do you mean by "addressed," I
`guess?
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
` Q Is it mentioned anywhere? Does it discuss
`it? I mean, it's a common term we use with
`"address."
` A Okay. Let's take a look.
` Q The '747 is Exhibit 8, I believe.
` MR. ELLIOTT: Is that right, Mr. Toft?
` MR. TOFT: I think that's what we said
`earlier.
` THE WITNESS: Got it right here. Uh-huh.
` MR. ELLIOTT: I'm sorry. '747 is
`Exhibit 7.
` MR. TOFT: No, that's my -- '747 is 7,
`yeah.
` MR. ELLIOTT: Yeah.
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`
` A I got it here somewhere. Here it is.
` Q Okay. Then help me with the definition of
`a "transducer," please?
` (Reviewing.) Column 3, line, looks like
` A A transducer is a -- now it's my turn. I
`48 refers to "pressure transducer 46." So if
`apologize.
`you're asking if the term "pressure sensing means"
` (Witness stomach is growling.)
`shows up, that would be -- likely to be in the
` Q No worries.
`patent, in the claims.
` A A transducer is a device for changing a
` (Reviewing.) At column 14, under claim
`quantity in one modality into a quantity in
`16, at line 17 refers to "a pressure sensing means
`another modality, often electrically, but not
`adapted to monitor pressure within the pump
`necessarily.
`manifold." So there's the term.
`0
` Q Functionally, how does the transducer
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
`11
`measure that first modality? What represents
` Q Okay. And you mentioned that a "pressure
`12
`that?
`transducer" is recited at column 3, line 48; is
`13
` MR. TOFT: Object to form.
`that correct?
`14
` A Well, it depends on the transducer you're
` A Yes.
`15
`talking about. What are we transducing?
` Q And you also indicated that a barometer is
`16
`BY MR. ELLIOTT:
`another way to sense pressure; right?
`17
` A Yes.
` Q What is the transducer that's used in the
`18
`embodiment of the '747 patent? How does it
` Q Would a barometer be practically utilized
`19
`operate?
`in the system of the '747 patent to sense
`20
` A Oh. So you're talking about a pressure
`pressure?
`21
`transducer.
` A It depends on the kind of barometer, but
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`345
`done electronically. Could be a computer, could
`be an analog circuit.
` Q But without something in between that
`transducer and the human,