·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·IPR2018-01079
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent No. 8,213,970
`·2
`
`·3· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·________________
`·4
`· · · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·5· ·______________________________________________________
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`·6
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · ·GOOGLE LLC,
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
`·8
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
`·9
`· · · · · · · · · AGIS SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT LLC,
`10· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 8,213,970
`· · · · · · · · ·Filing Date:· November 26, 2008
`12· · · · · · · · · Issue Date:· July 3, 2012
`
`13· · · · · · · ·Inventor:· Malcolm K. Beyer, Jr.
`· · · · · Title:· METHOD OF UTILIZING FORCED ALERTS FOR
`14· · · · · · · INTERACTIVE REMOVE COMMUNICATIONS
`
`15· ·______________________________________________________
`
`16· · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF:· DAVID HILLIARD WILLIAMS
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·March 21, 2019
`17
`· · · · · · Case Nos. IPR2018-01079 and IPR2018-01080
`18· ·______________________________________________________
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` IPR2018-01079, Exhibit 2007
`Patent Owner, AGIS Software Development
` 1
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`IPR2019-00485, Exhibit 2005
`Patent Owner, AGIS Software Development
`Page 1
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent No. 8,213,970
`·2
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`·3· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·________________
`·4
`· · · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·5· ·______________________________________________________
`
`·6
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · ·GOOGLE LLC,
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
`·8
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
`·9
`· · · · · · · · · AGIS SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT LLC,
`10· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 8,213,970
`· · · · · · · · ·Filing Date:· November 26, 2008
`12· · · · · · · · · Issue Date:· July 3, 2012
`
`13· · · · · · · ·Inventor:· Malcolm K. Beyer, Jr.
`· · · · · Title:· METHOD OF UTILIZING FORCED ALERTS FOR
`14· · · · · · · INTERACTIVE REMOVE COMMUNICATIONS
`
`15· ·______________________________________________________
`
`16· · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF:· DAVID HILLIARD WILLIAMS
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·March 21, 2019
`17
`· · · · · · Case Nos. IPR2018-01079 and IPR2018-01080
`18· ·______________________________________________________
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` IPR2018-01079, Exhibit 2007
`Patent Owner, AGIS Software Development
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`IPR2019-00485, Exhibit 2005
`Patent Owner, AGIS Software Development
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`·1· · · · · · · · · PURSUANT TO NOTICE, the deposition of
`· · ·DAVID HILLIARD WILLIAMS was taken on behalf of
`·2· ·Patent Owner, AGIS Software Development LLC, at
`· · ·370 17th Street, Suite 4400, Denver, Colorado 80202,
`·3· ·on March 21, 2019, at 9:00 a.m., before Gail Obermeyer,
`· · ·Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public
`·4· ·within Colorado
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`·1· · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S
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`·2· ·For the Petitioner:
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`·3· · · · · · ·JONATHAN TUMINARO, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · ·KAREN WONG-CHAN, ESQ.
`·4· · · · · · ·DOHM CHANKONG, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · ·Sterne, Kessler, Goldstein & Fox, P.L.L.C.
`·5· · · · · · ·1100 New York Avenue N.W., Suite 600
`· · · · · · · ·Washington, D.C. 20005
`·6
`· · · · · · · ·MICHAEL A. BERTA, ESQ.
`·7· · · · · · ·Arnold & Porter, LLP
`· · · · · · · ·3 Embarcadero Center
`·8· · · · · · ·San Francisco, California 94111
`
`·9
`· · ·For the Patent Owner, AGIS Software Development L.L.C.:
`10
`· · · · · · · ·ENRIQUE W. ITURRALDE, ESQ.
`11· · · · · · ·Brown Rudnick, L.L.P.
`· · · · · · · ·7 Times Square
`12· · · · · · ·New York, New York 10036
`
`13
`· · ·Also Present:
`14
`· · · · · · · ·Jim Sherwood, Esq.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
`
`·2· ·EXAMINATION OF DAVID HILLIARD WILLIAMS:· · · · · · PAGE
`· · ·March 21, 2019
`·3
`· · ·By Mr. Iturralde· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 7
`·4
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·INITIAL
`· · ·DEPOSITION EXHIBITS:· · · · · · · · · · · · · REFERENCE
`·6
`· · ·Patent No. 8,213,970
`·7
`· · ·Exhibit 1001· United States Patent (Beyer),· · · · · ·7
`·8· · · · · · · · ·US 8,213,970 B2, 7/3/12
`
`·9· ·Exhibit 1003· Declaration of David Hilliard· · · · · ·7
`· · · · · · · · · ·Williams in Support of
`10· · · · · · · · ·Petition for Inter Parties
`· · · · · · · · · ·Review of U.S. Patent
`11· · · · · · · · ·No. 8,213,970, 5/15/18
`
`12· ·Exhibit 1005· United States Patent· · · · · · · · · ·18
`· · · · · · · · · ·Application Publication
`13· · · · · · · · ·(Kubala, et al.),
`· · · · · · · · · ·US 2006/0218232 A1, 9/28/06
`14
`· · ·Exhibit 1006· United States Patent (Hammond),· · · · 52
`15· · · · · · · · ·Patent No. US 6,854,007 B1,
`· · · · · · · · · ·2/8/05
`16
`· · ·Patent No. 9,408,055
`17
`· · ·Exhibit 1001· United States Patent (Beyer, Jr.)· · ·106
`18· · · · · · · · ·US 9,408,055 B2, 8/2/16
`
`19· ·Exhibit 1003· Declaration of David Hilliard· · · · ·106
`· · · · · · · · · ·Williams in Support of
`20· · · · · · · · ·Petition for Inter Parties
`· · · · · · · · · ·Review of U.S. Patent
`21· · · · · · · · ·No. 9,408,055
`
`22· ·Exhibit 1005· United States Patent· · · · · · · · · 109
`· · · · · · · · · ·(Fumarolo, et al.),
`23· · · · · · · · ·US 6,366,782 BI, 4/2/02
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`·1· ·Exhibit 1006· United States Patent· · · · · · · · · 131
`· · · · · · · · · ·Application Publication
`·2· · · · · · · · ·(Sheha, et al.),
`· · · · · · · · · ·US 2004/0054428 A1, 3/18/04
`·3
`· · ·Exhibit 1007· United States Patent· · · · · · · · · 134
`·4· · · · · · · · ·Application Publication
`· · · · · · · · · ·(Lazaridis, et al.)
`·5· · · · · · · · ·US 2004/0157590 A1, 8/12/04
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`·1· · · · · · · ·WHEREUPON, the following proceedings
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`·2· ·were taken pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil
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`·3· ·Procedure.
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`·4· · · · · · · · *· · · *· · · *· · · *· · · *
`
`·5· · · · · · · · (Deposition Exhibits 1001, 1003, 1005, and
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`·6· ·1006 in Patent No. 8,213,970 and 1001, 1003, 1005,
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`·7· ·1006, and 1007 in Patent No. 9,408,055 were premarked
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`·8· ·by Mr. Iturralde.)
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`·9· · · · · · · · (Mr. Chankong was not present at the
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`10· ·commencement of the deposition.)
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`11· · · · · · · · · ·DAVID HILLIARD WILLIAMS,
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`12· ·having been first duly sworn to state the whole truth,
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`13· ·testified as follows:
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`14· · · · · · · ·(Deponent's reply to oath:· "I do.")
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`15· · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· This is Enrique Iturralde
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`16· ·for Patent Owner, AGIS Software Development LLC.· If
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`17· ·the other attorneys would like to enter their
`
`18· ·appearances.
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`19· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· Jonathan Tuminaro from the
`
`20· ·law firm of Sterne, Kessler, Goldstein & Fox on behalf
`
`21· ·of Petitioner, Google.
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`22· · · · · · · · MS. WONG-CHAN:· Karen Wong-Chan, also with
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`23· ·Sterne, Kessler.
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`24· · · · · · · · MR. SHERWOOD:· Jim Sherwood, in-house
`
`25· ·counsel for Google.
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`·1· · · · · · · · MR. BERTA:· Michael Berta.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`·3· ·BY MR. ITURRALDE:
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`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·We're here today in IPR2018-01079 and
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`·5· ·IPR2018-0180.
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`·6· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· I just want to be clear on
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`·7· ·the record that we are going to do the 1079 deposition
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`·8· ·first.· We're going to stop that and then do the 0180.
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`·9· · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· I was getting to that.
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`10· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· Okay.
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`11· · · · · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. ITURRALDE)· We're going to start
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`12· ·with the deposition of IPR2018-01079, which concerns
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`13· ·Patent No. -- U.S. Patent No. 8,213,970.· Would you
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`14· ·please state your full name for the record.
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`15· · · · · ·A.· ·David Hilliard Williams.
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`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·And, Mr. Williams, did you submit a
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`17· ·declaration in IPR2018-01079?
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`18· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`19· · · · · ·Q.· ·I've placed in front of you two documents.
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`20· ·One of them is Exhibit 1003, and the other one is
`
`21· ·Exhibit 1001.· Is Exhibit 1003 your declaration
`
`22· ·submitted in this case?
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`23· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`24· · · · · ·Q.· ·Will you please turn to the last page of
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`25· ·the declaration.· Is that your signature?
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`·1· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, it is.
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`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·And just to be clear, that's your
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`·3· ·signature on page 1000 -- I'm sorry, 118 of
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`·4· ·Exhibit 1003, correct?
`
`·5· · · · · ·A.· ·Correct.
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`·6· · · · · ·Q.· ·Mr. Williams, who are you currently
`
`·7· ·retained by?
`
`·8· · · · · ·A.· ·Sterne, Kessler, on behalf of Google.
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`·9· · · · · ·Q.· ·And what did you do in preparation for
`
`10· ·today's deposition?
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`11· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· I'll just caution the
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`12· ·witness not to disclose the substance of any
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`13· ·communication you may have had with counsel in
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`14· ·answering this question.
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`15· · · · · ·A.· ·I reviewed most of the documents
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`16· ·involved -- I believe all of them, actually -- and
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`17· ·spent several hours in -- well, actually, more than
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`18· ·several hours in reviewing those documents.
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`19· · · · · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. ITURRALDE)· About how many hours?
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`20· · · · · ·A.· ·Double digits; so 15 to 20, probably, in
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`21· ·total.
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`22· · · · · ·Q.· ·That would be 15 to 20 for just the
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`23· ·79 IPR?
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`24· · · · · ·A.· ·Probably.
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`25· · · · · ·Q.· ·When did you start preparing for this
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`·1· ·deposition?
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`·2· · · · · ·A.· ·Last week.
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`·3· · · · · ·Q.· ·I presume you've met with counsel for --
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`·4· ·from Sterne, Kessler in preparation for this
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`·5· ·deposition, correct?
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`·6· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
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`·7· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And did you meet with counsel from
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`·8· ·Arnold & Porter as well?
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`·9· · · · · ·A.· ·I'm sorry?
`
`10· · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you meet with counsel from Arnold &
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`11· ·Porter as well?
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`12· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes, everyone here.
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`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you meet with any Google employees in
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`14· ·preparation for this deposition?
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`15· · · · · ·A.· ·Just Mr. Sherwood, is the only Google
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`16· ·employee.
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`17· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Did you have communication with any
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`18· ·other Google employees --
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`19· · · · · ·A.· ·No.
`
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·-- in preparation for this deposition?
`
`21· · · · · ·A.· ·No.
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`22· · · · · ·Q.· ·What is your rate of compensation for this
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`23· ·IPR?
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`24· · · · · ·A.· ·350 an hour.
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`25· · · · · ·Q.· ·And how long have you spent just on this
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`·1· ·79 IPR so far?· How many hours?
`
`·2· · · · · ·A.· ·In preparation for the deposition or --
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`·3· · · · · ·Q.· ·Just in total.
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`·4· · · · · ·A.· ·I don't know what the total was, it was
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`·5· ·several months ago, but well into double -- large
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`·6· ·double digits.
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`·7· · · · · ·Q.· ·So less than a hundred?
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`·8· · · · · ·A.· ·Yeah.
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`·9· · · · · ·Q.· ·More than 50?
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`10· · · · · ·A.· ·Probably.
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`11· · · · · ·Q.· ·Somewhere between 50 and a hundred?
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`12· · · · · ·A.· ·I'd say so.
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`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·Before this IPR, had you ever heard of
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`14· ·Malcolm K. Beyer?
`
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·No.
`
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·Before this IPR, had you ever heard of
`
`17· ·Advanced Ground Information Systems?
`
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·I had heard AGIS, in terms of the acronym.
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`19· ·I can't say I knew anything about it, beyond just that
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`20· ·name and coming up in various technical articles and
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`21· ·what have you.· I never had a cause to look any further
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`22· ·than that.
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`23· · · · · ·Q.· ·During what -- around what dates did
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`24· ·you -- withdraw the question.
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`25· · · · · · · · When did you first hear about Advanced
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`·1· ·Ground Information Systems, or AGIS?
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`·2· · · · · ·A.· ·Well, I didn't hear the -- what AGIS stood
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`·3· ·for until this case came along.· When I had come across
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`·4· ·the AGIS term, I have no idea.· I do a lot of keeping
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`·5· ·on top of the general technical industry and read a
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`·6· ·couple newspapers a day kind of thing.· So when I
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`·7· ·originally heard of them, I have no idea.
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`·8· · · · · ·Q.· ·Did you hear about Advanced Ground
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`·9· ·Information Systems, or AGIS, during your time working
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`10· ·for AT&T?
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`11· · · · · ·A.· ·No.
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`12· · · · · ·Q.· ·Was it after your time at AT&T?
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`13· · · · · ·A.· ·You know, I don't know.· I wrote several
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`14· ·books -- or a number of books prior to my time at AT&T,
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`15· ·and then I've been working on books after that, in
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`16· ·addition to my just general staying on top of research.
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`17· ·So I really couldn't pinpoint when I heard the term,
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`18· ·the acronym.
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`19· · · · · ·Q.· ·So it wasn't during your time at AT&T?
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`20· ·You're sure of that?
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`21· · · · · ·A.· ·There's no reason why my work at AT&T
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`22· ·would have brought that up, that I can think of.
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`23· ·Whether the reading I did while just -- you know,
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`24· ·during that period of time, if that was the time, I
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`25· ·have no idea.
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`·1· · · · · ·Q.· ·And what were you reading about when you
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`·2· ·came across the name AGIS?
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`·3· · · · · ·A.· ·I'm sorry?
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`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·What were you reading about when you came
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`·5· ·across the name AGIS?
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`·6· · · · · ·A.· ·When I came across the what?
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`·7· · · · · ·Q.· ·The name AGIS, or the name Advanced Ground
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`·8· ·Information Systems.
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`·9· · · · · ·A.· ·Oh, I don't even recall that.· I don't
`
`10· ·know if it was a technical document, the Wall Street
`
`11· ·Journal, the New York Times.· It could have been just
`
`12· ·something on a stock price.· It could have been new
`
`13· ·leadership.· It could have been a technical article. I
`
`14· ·just remember the acronym AGIS, because it was kind of
`
`15· ·catchy.
`
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·What years did you work for AT&T?
`
`17· · · · · ·A.· ·2007 to 2010.
`
`18· · · · · ·Q.· ·And what positions did you hold during
`
`19· ·that time?
`
`20· · · · · ·A.· ·I was a consultant for -- in 2007 to 2009.
`
`21· ·I -- the technical title was senior -- or lead product
`
`22· ·realization manager, responsible for the implementation
`
`23· ·of several location-based services products, as well as
`
`24· ·assisting in the design, implementation, and
`
`25· ·troubleshooting of AT&T's broad relocation
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`·1· ·infrastructure.· And then I was an employee for about a
`
`·2· ·year, from 2009-2010, doing product management work for
`
`·3· ·a variety of business-oriented, location-based services
`
`·4· ·products.
`
`·5· · · · · ·Q.· ·So is it possible you came across the name
`
`·6· ·AGIS during your employment while you were working on
`
`·7· ·location-based services for AT&T between 2007 and 2010?
`
`·8· · · · · ·A.· ·If I did, it was -- I can't think of any
`
`·9· ·reason why it would have been involved with the work I
`
`10· ·did at AT&T.· It would have come up just in my normal
`
`11· ·reading, two newspapers a day, and just generally being
`
`12· ·a news -- general news and technical news junkie kind
`
`13· ·of person.
`
`14· · · · · ·Q.· ·What did you do before AT&T?
`
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·Do you have a specific time frame or where
`
`16· ·I could start chronologically?
`
`17· · · · · ·Q.· ·Go ahead and start chronologically.
`
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·I got an electrical engineering degree,
`
`19· ·with digital design emphasis, from Purdue University.
`
`20· ·That was in 1983.· I worked two years for then-Hughes
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`21· ·Aircraft Company in designing -- helping to convert the
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`22· ·F15 radar from an analog-based system to a digital-
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`23· ·based system.
`
`24· · · · · · · · I then got an MBA, focusing on information
`
`25· ·systems management, from the University of Texas.· That
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`·1· ·was in 1987.· I joined then-Touche Ross, which
`
`·2· ·eventually became Deloitte Consulting, working in their
`
`·3· ·information technology practice, in general.
`
`·4· · · · · · · · And then I moved to Booz Allen & Hamilton
`
`·5· ·in the commercial strategy practice -- that was in '91
`
`·6· ·to '93 -- in their IT strategy practice.· And then I
`
`·7· ·joined then-Anderson Consulting, which eventually
`
`·8· ·became Accenture, in '93; initially, in their
`
`·9· ·information technology strategy practice, then
`
`10· ·transferring to their communications and high tech
`
`11· ·strategy practice.
`
`12· · · · · · · · Left Accenture in 2002, started my own
`
`13· ·firm, which is the firm I have today, E911-LBS
`
`14· ·Consulting, focused exclusively on mobile location,
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`15· ·wireless location, technology, applications issues,
`
`16· ·et cetera.
`
`17· · · · · ·Q.· ·So is it safe to say for most of your time
`
`18· ·working at Hughes and AT&T and the other companies that
`
`19· ·you just mentioned, you held positions that were
`
`20· ·directed to mostly strategic roles; is that correct?
`
`21· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· Object to form.
`
`22· · · · · ·A.· ·No.· Depending on how you want to
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`23· ·characterize strategic roles.· The -- I had a very
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`24· ·significant implementation orientation, so any label of
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`25· ·being in strategy, if you will, and kind of telling
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`·1· ·people what to do, and not doing it, would be very far
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`·2· ·from the truth.· So AT&T certainly was all about
`
`·3· ·designing and implementing new products.· My work at
`
`·4· ·Hughes was about designing, implementing new radar
`
`·5· ·systems.· Much of my work, even in the IT strategy
`
`·6· ·practices, was all about designing and implementing new
`
`·7· ·IT architectures, IT operations, IT management systems,
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`·8· ·all those kinds of things.· So it was very much an
`
`·9· ·implementation orientation, even with the word
`
`10· ·"strategy" attached to it.
`
`11· · · · · ·Q.· ·So would you say that you're a programmer
`
`12· ·as well?
`
`13· · · · · ·A.· ·I certainly know how to program. I
`
`14· ·learned several programming languages as an electrical
`
`15· ·engineer student.· Moore, Fortran, Pascal, Assembly,
`
`16· ·Assembler, C, APL; subsequently learned other
`
`17· ·languages -- COBOL, C++, Java -- particularly as I
`
`18· ·moved more into the mobile world.
`
`19· · · · · ·Q.· ·Have you ever worked with a company called
`
`20· ·Lookout?
`
`21· · · · · ·A.· ·Lookout?
`
`22· · · · · ·Q.· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · · · ·A.· ·No.
`
`24· · · · · ·Q.· ·Who are your clients now in your company,
`
`25· ·E911?
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`·1· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· I'll just caution the
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`·2· ·witness not to disclose any third-party confidential
`
`·3· ·information in answering this question.
`
`·4· · · · · ·A.· ·The best way to answer that is I have four
`
`·5· ·practice areas.· One is in doing work like this, in
`
`·6· ·terms of patent-related litigation.· Second is in doing
`
`·7· ·criminal and civil forensics work.· The third is in
`
`·8· ·doing what I would call traditional consulting work, in
`
`·9· ·terms of defining and implementing new products and
`
`10· ·services.· And the fourth is in researching and
`
`11· ·publishing various types of technology-oriented
`
`12· ·books -- oriented reports, so --
`
`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. ITURRALDE)· So I guess I would
`
`14· ·ask -- reask the question as to the last two.
`
`15· ·Traditional consulting and research that you do for
`
`16· ·companies, who are your current clients?
`
`17· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· Again, I'll just caution
`
`18· ·the witness, to the extent that any of these current
`
`19· ·clients, if it's a confidential relationship, I'll
`
`20· ·caution the witness not to disclose any of that
`
`21· ·confidential third-party information, to the extent it
`
`22· ·is.
`
`23· · · · · ·A.· ·Well, the research book -- the research
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`24· ·works are more of a -- not on behalf of clients.
`
`25· ·They're more just as a mechanism to demonstrate
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`·1· ·expertise in certain fields, potentially generate some
`
`·2· ·revenue, those kinds of things.· So there's no real
`
`·3· ·clients attached to that.
`
`·4· · · · · · · · The general consulting side varies.· I've
`
`·5· ·got clients everywhere from -- historically, from
`
`·6· ·Ireland to Asia, as well as a variety of clients in the
`
`·7· ·U.S. at various points, just depending on the
`
`·8· ·particular topic; ranging from designing new services,
`
`·9· ·to troubleshooting existing services, addressing
`
`10· ·particular issues, such as privacy, those kinds of
`
`11· ·things.
`
`12· · · · · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. ITURRALDE)· Is Google one of your
`
`13· ·clients?
`
`14· · · · · ·A.· ·Google is a client in the patent work
`
`15· ·portion of my business, but not in any other.
`
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Does your company sell any
`
`17· ·products?
`
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·No; other than the books or the reports,
`
`19· ·when I finally finish off the two I've been working on
`
`20· ·for a while, those will be sold through various
`
`21· ·publication arms, like -- people like -- I can't
`
`22· ·remember.· The one I've used is Mind Commerce, in the
`
`23· ·past, that basically serves as a marketing channel.
`
`24· ·But that's the only product.
`
`25· · · · · ·Q.· ·In your reading, when you came across the
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`·1· ·name Advanced Ground Information Systems, or AGIS, what
`
`·2· ·did you learn about the company?
`
`·3· · · · · ·A.· ·I can't remember anything about it, other
`
`·4· ·than I remember the name.· I wanted to say it had
`
`·5· ·something to do with satellites, but I'm not even sure
`
`·6· ·that's correct.· That's the extent of it; just the name
`
`·7· ·and possibly associated with satellites.
`
`·8· · · · · ·Q.· ·And did you do any research into its
`
`·9· ·founder or inventor?
`
`10· · · · · ·A.· ·No.
`
`11· · · · · ·Q.· ·I'm going to hand you Exhibit 1005.
`
`12· · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Counsel, do you need
`
`13· ·copies of these, or do you have them all?
`
`14· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· I have them.
`
`15· · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· It's up to you.· I'm just
`
`16· ·letting you know.
`
`17· · · · · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. ITURRALDE)· I've just handed you
`
`18· ·what's marked as Google Exhibit 1005.· Do you recognize
`
`19· ·this as the Kubala reference?
`
`20· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·Are you familiar with this reference?
`
`22· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · · · ·Q.· ·How much time have you spent reviewing
`
`24· ·this reference?
`
`25· · · · · ·A.· ·In total, since everything was started,
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`·1· ·probably several hours, in some form or another.
`
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· ·What's your understanding of the alleged
`
`·3· ·invention described here in this reference?
`
`·4· · · · · ·A.· ·Well, its title is "Method and System for
`
`·5· ·Accommodating Mandatory Responses in Electronic
`
`·6· ·Messaging."· More generally, it's around having to do
`
`·7· ·with sending and receiving responses to forced response
`
`·8· ·messages.
`
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· ·So as far as an application, is this an
`
`10· ·email application?
`
`11· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· Objection to form.
`
`12· · · · · ·A.· ·The abstract probably describes it best,
`
`13· ·in terms of, "A method, system, apparatus, or computer
`
`14· ·product is presented for processing electronic
`
`15· ·messages."
`
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. ITURRALDE)· Okay.· Are you
`
`17· ·familiar with reading a patent?
`
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·I'm sorry?
`
`19· · · · · ·Q.· ·Are you familiar with reading a patent?
`
`20· · · · · ·A.· ·With a --
`
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·With reading a patent.
`
`22· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· I'm going to object to the
`
`23· ·form.
`
`24· · · · · ·A.· ·I'm not sure I understand.· I mean, I've
`
`25· ·read the patent.
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`·1· · · · · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. ITURRALDE)· Okay.· Are you
`
`·2· ·familiar with the terms related to reading a patent?
`
`·3· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· Objection to form.
`
`·4· · · · · ·A.· ·Well, depends on the term.
`
`·5· · · · · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. ITURRALDE)· Are you familiar with
`
`·6· ·the term "claim"?
`
`·7· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`·8· · · · · ·Q.· ·In the context of a patent?
`
`·9· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`10· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Are you familiar with the term
`
`11· ·"claim limitation" in the context of a patent?
`
`12· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·Are you familiar with the term
`
`14· ·"embodiment" when it comes to the context of a patent?
`
`15· · · · · ·A.· ·Yes.
`
`16· · · · · ·Q.· ·Do you know how many embodiments are
`
`17· ·presented in the Kubala reference?
`
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·I haven't done any count of how many, no.
`
`19· · · · · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you haven't actually done an
`
`20· ·analysis to sort through the embodiments presented in
`
`21· ·the Kubala reference, correct?
`
`22· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· Object to the form.
`
`23· · · · · ·A.· ·I have done an analysis of Kubala relative
`
`24· ·to the claims in the '970 patent, as well as their
`
`25· ·association with other prior art.· As part of that, I
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`·1· ·didn't do some sort of calculating of the number of
`
`·2· ·embodiments or what have you, because I didn't see a
`
`·3· ·point in doing that.
`
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. ITURRALDE)· Why not?
`
`·5· · · · · ·A.· ·Whether the embodiments had five or seven
`
`·6· ·or ten, the number is not particularly useful.· It's
`
`·7· ·what's in the embodiments that is important.
`
`·8· · · · · ·Q.· ·So do you believe that when you apply a
`
`·9· ·patent reference like Kubala to claims in a patent, is
`
`10· ·it your belief that you can apply all of the
`
`11· ·embodiments that are in that reference to the claims?
`
`12· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· Object to the form.
`
`13· · · · · ·A.· ·Some embodiments have to do with some
`
`14· ·claims, some other embodiments have to do with other
`
`15· ·claims.· They don't all necessarily have to do with the
`
`16· ·same claims.· So there's -- not all claims, for
`
`17· ·example, are asserted in this one, in this case.· So
`
`18· ·it's more around the embodiments that are relative to
`
`19· ·the asserted claims in this case that would have been
`
`20· ·my focus area.
`
`21· · · · · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. ITURRALDE)· So in applying the
`
`22· ·Kubala reference to the '970 patent, you're combining
`
`23· ·this entire Kubala reference, correct?
`
`24· · · · · ·A.· ·Repeat that question, please.
`
`25· · · · · ·Q.· ·So in applying the Kubala reference to the
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`·1· ·'970 patent, you're applying the entire Kubala
`
`·2· ·reference, all embodiments included, correct?
`
`·3· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· Object to the form.
`
`·4· · · · · ·A.· ·I reviewed Kubala in its entirety.· Some
`
`·5· ·embodiments would -- and I'd have to go back and
`
`·6· ·compare the individual embodiments listed in Kubala to
`
`·7· ·what was in the declaration -- but odds are only some
`
`·8· ·of the embodiments referenced in Kubala made it into
`
`·9· ·the declaration.· So not all embodiments were equally
`
`10· ·applied or equally relevant, just depending on what was
`
`11· ·being asserted in terms of the particular claim in a
`
`12· ·particular relevance of art.
`
`13· · · · · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. ITURRALDE)· You didn't identify
`
`14· ·which embodiments you were talking about when you
`
`15· ·applied the Kubala reference to the '970 patent,
`
`16· ·correct?
`
`17· · · · · ·A.· ·I'd have to go back into the declaration
`
`18· ·and rereview and specifically identify which
`
`19· ·embodiments came from where, so . . .
`
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·You would agree that in one of the
`
`21· ·embodiments presented here in the Kubala reference is
`
`22· ·an email application, correct?
`
`23· · · · · ·A.· ·Can you be more specific in terms of which
`
`24· ·embodiment you're talking about?
`
`25· · · · · ·Q.· ·If you look at, for instance, Figure
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`·1· ·No. 2, this is the embodiment that's set forth in the
`
`·2· ·Kubala reference, correct?
`
`·3· · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· Object to the form.
`
`·4· · · · · ·A.· ·The description of Figure 2, paragraph 13,
`
`·5· ·says it "depicts a block diagram that shows an exchange
`
`·6· ·of email messages between email applications that have
`
`·7· ·been enhanced to include functionality to implement an
`
`·8· ·embodiment of the present invention."
`
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· ·(BY MR. ITURRALDE)· So does this -- is
`
`10· ·this the enhanced email application that you describe
`
`11· ·in your -- in your declaration?
`
`12· · · · · ·A.· ·You'd have to point me specifically to
`
`13· ·what part of the declaration.· Certainly, Figure 2 was
`
`14· ·in the declaration.
`
`15· · · · · ·Q.· ·Can you tell me -- in analyzing this email
`
`16· ·application, you identified a process for setting a
`
`17· ·mandatory response flag, right?
`
`18· · · · · ·A.· ·The description around Figure 2, I believe
`
`19· ·has -- that can be characterized as having that.
`
`20· · · · · ·Q.· ·And is that -- is that part of a module or
`
`21· ·an additional
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