UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` CANON, INC., CANON )
` U.S.A., INC., and )
` AXIS )
` COMMUNICATIONS AB, ) Case No. PIR2019-00314
` ) U.S. Patent No. 7,932,923
` Petitioners, )
` )
` vs. )
` ) Case No. IPR2019-00311
` AVIGILON FORTRESS ) U.S. Patent No. 7,932,923
` CORPORATION, )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
` The videotaped deposition of
` ALAN BOVIK, Ph.D., called for examination,
` taken pursuant to notice and pursuant to the
` Federal Rules of Civil Procedure for the
` United States District Courts pertaining to
` the taking of depositions, taken before
` Angela C. Loisi, Certified Shorthand
` Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter,
` Federal Certified Realtime Reporter, at 300
` North LaSalle Street, 6th Floor, Chicago,
` Illinois, commencing at 9:33 a.m. on
` December 13, 2019.
` (Proceedings ended at 3:48 p.m.)
` Reporter: Angela C. Loisi, CSR, RPR, FCRR
` License No.: 084-00457
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`Canon Ex. 1056 Page 1 of 271
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`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` CANON, INC., CANON )
` U.S.A., INC., and )
` AXIS )
` COMMUNICATIONS AB, ) Case No. PIR2019-00314
` ) U.S. Patent No. 7,932,923
` Petitioners, )
` )
` vs. )
` ) Case No. IPR2019-00311
` AVIGILON FORTRESS ) U.S. Patent No. 7,932,923
` CORPORATION, )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
` The videotaped deposition of
` ALAN BOVIK, Ph.D., called for examination,
` taken pursuant to notice and pursuant to the
` Federal Rules of Civil Procedure for the
` United States District Courts pertaining to
` the taking of depositions, taken before
` Angela C. Loisi, Certified Shorthand
` Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter,
` Federal Certified Realtime Reporter, at 300
` North LaSalle Street, 6th Floor, Chicago,
` Illinois, commencing at 9:33 a.m. on
` December 13, 2019.
` (Proceedings ended at 3:48 p.m.)
` Reporter: Angela C. Loisi, CSR, RPR, FCRR
` License No.: 084-00457
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`
` APPEARANCES:
`
` ORRICK
`
` BY: MR. RICHARD MARTINELLI
`
` 51 West 52nd Street
`
` New York, New York 10019-6142
`
` (212) 506-3702
`
` Rmartinelli@orrick.com
`
` Representing Canon, Inc. and
`
` Canon U.S.A., Inc.;
`
` FINNEGAN, HENDERSON, FARABOW,
`
` GARRETT & DUNNER, LLP
`
` BY: MR. GUANG-YU ZHU
`
` 901 New York Avenue, NW
`
` Washington, D.C. 2000-4413
`
` (202) 408-4000
`
` Guang-yu.zhu@finnegan.com
`
` Representing Axis Communications AB;
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` A P P E A R A N C E S C O N T I N U E D :
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` K I R K L A N D & E L L I S L L P
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` B Y : M R . R E Z A D O K H A N C H Y
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` 5 5 5 C a l i f o r n i a S t r e e t
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` S a n F r a n c i s c o , C a l i f o r n i a 9 4 1 0 4
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` ( 4 1 5 ) 4 3 9 - 1 4 6 9
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` R e z a . d o k h a n c h y @ k i r k l a n d . c o m
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` R e p r e s e n t i n g A v i g i l o n F o r t r e s s
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` C o r p o r a t i o n .
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` I N D E X
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` W I T N E S S : A L A N B O V I K , P h . D . P A G E
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` E x a m i n a t i o n b y M r . M a r t i n e l l i 7
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` E x a m i n a t i o n b y M r . D o k h a n c h y 2 1 7
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` E X H I B I T S
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` A L A N B O V I K , P h . D . P A G E
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` ( N O E X H I B I T S M A R K E D )
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` (Witness sworn.)
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We
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` are going on the video record at 9:33 a.m. on
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` December 13, 2019.
`
` Please note that the microphones are
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` sensitive and may pick up whispering, private
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` conversation and cellular interference.
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` Please turn off all cell phones or
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` place them away from the microphones as they
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` can interfere with the deposition audio.
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` Audio and video recording will continue to
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` take place unless all parties agree to go off
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` record.
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` This is media unit 1 of the
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` videorecorded deposition of
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` Dr. Alan Bovik, Ph.D., taken by the counsel
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` for the plaintiff; right?
`
` Am I right?
`
` MR. MARTINELLI: Petitioner.
`
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Ah, petitioner,
`
` thank you.
`
` In the matter of Canon, Inc., and
`
` Canon U.S.A, Inc., and Axis Communications AB
`
` versus Avigilon Fortress Corporation filed in
`
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` the United States Patent and Trademark Office,
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` IPR number 2019-00314 and 2019- -- 19-00311.
`
` This deposition is being held at
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` Kirkland & Ellis, LLP, located at
`
` 300 North LaSalle in Chicago, Illinois.
`
` My name is Barbara Patel from Veritext
`
` and I am the videographer. The court reporter
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` is Angela Loisi from Veritext. I am not
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` authorized to administer oath. I am not
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` related to any party in this action, nor am I
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` financially interested in the outcome.
`
` Counsel present in the room and
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` everyone attending remotely will now state
`
` their appearances and affiliations for the
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` record, please.
`
` MR. MARTINELLI: So Richard Martinelli
`
` for the Canon entities.
`
` MR. ZHU: Guang-Yu Zhu for Axis.
`
` MR. DOKHANCHY: Reza Dokhanchy for the
`
` patent owner, Avigilon.
`
` (Witness sworn.)
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` WHEREUPON:
`
` ALAN BOVIK, Ph.D.,
`
` called as a witness herein, having been
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` first duly sworn, was examined and testified
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` as follows:
`
` DIRECT EXAMINATION
`
` BY MR. MARTINELLI:
`
` Q. Okay. Good morning, Dr. Bovik. Good
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` to see you again.
`
` A. Good morning, counselor. Nice to be
`
` here.
`
` Q. So you've done a number of depositions
`
` before; correct?
`
` A. Yeah. I just looked. This is my
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` 48th.
`
` Q. Okay. So we probably don't need to go
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` over too much of the details --
`
` A. Yeah.
`
` Q. -- of the rules here. I just want to
`
` let you know that if there's anything I'm
`
` asking that's unclear, please feel free to
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` correct me. And if at any point you need a
`
` break, please just answer the question that's
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` pending and we can take a break; is that okay?
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` A. Fair enough. Sure.
`
` Q. How many of those depositions that
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` you've done have been in IPR proceedings?
`
` A. Oh, I didn't do a count of those, but
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` I would -- you know, at least 10.
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` Q. Mm-hmm.
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` A. Maybe more. You know, I mean, I
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` think -- and just, again, I didn't count them
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` so...
`
` Q. Sure.
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` A. You know.
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` Q. But we've done a couple I think in --
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` A. Yeah.
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` Q. -- these series of matters.
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And so you understand that this is
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` your full testimony for the IPR proceedings in
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` addition to your declaration that you
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` submitted?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. And you understand that the audience
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` for this deposition are the ALJs that will
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` preside over the IPR proceeding?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. So we're here today to talk
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` about U.S. Patent Number 7,932,923; is that
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` right?
`
` A. That is correct.
`
` Q. I see you have a copy of the patent
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` before you.
`
` A. I do.
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` Q. Is that one marked with Canon
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` Exhibit 1001?
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` A. It is. I don't know if you have to do
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` something with the reporter.
`
` Q. No. I don't think there's any magic
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` here since that's already on the record.
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. So if you're happy with your copy, you
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` can keep that. Have you marked that at all?
`
` A. I think it -- it's just fine, yeah.
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` MR. MARTINELLI: Reza, would you like
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` one?
`
` MR. DOKHANCHY: Thanks.
`
` BY MR. MARTINELLI:
`
` Q. When was the last time that you read
`
` the 923 Patent?
`
` A. I was reading it this morning.
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` Q. Good, good.
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` And you'll agree with me that,
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` obviously, what the 923 Patent teaches is very
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` important to these proceedings.
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` A. Oh, I couldn't dispute that. Yes.
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` Q. Okay. And it's important for the
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` board to understand what the 923 Patent
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` teaches; isn't that right?
`
` A. I think it's important for the board
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` to understand that 923 Patent.
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` Q. Okay. And you're an expert in
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` electrical engineering and computer
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` engineering; is that right?
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` A. Well, you know, I wouldn't summarize
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` myself like that.
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` Q. Okay. How would you summarize
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` yourself?
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` A. Well, I do have a -- you know, a CV
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` that's -- you know, part of this. And it
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` explains, you know, a record of almost four
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` decades of work in areas related to visual
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` signals, visual processing, visual
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` surveillance, visual perception, and broadly
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` related areas to those without in any way
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` trying to, you know, narrow that down.
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` Q. Okay. I'm not trying to narrow at
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` all.
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` A. Yeah.
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` Q. Are you familiar with software
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` development to build systems like the system
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` described in the 923 Patent?
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` A. Sure.
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` Q. And is it your opinion that the
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` 923 Patent is enabled for the claims that it
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` contains?
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` A. I haven't seen any evidence to the
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` contrary and, you know, I haven't had any
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` sense in reading it that it isn't enabled.
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` Q. Okay.
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` A. You know, so I -- you know, I haven't
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` given an opinion on that you'll notice, so...
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` Q. Mm-hmm. But, generally, "enablement"
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` means that a person of skill in the art could
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` read this patent and understand how to build
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` the systems disclosed in that; right?
`
` A. Well, I understand what "enablement"
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` is.
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` Q. Mm-hmm.
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` A. Yeah.
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` Q. And do you agree that it's the ability
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` of a person of skill in the art to read this
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` patent and then build a system consistent with
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` the claims and what's in the description?
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` A. Well, once again, I didn't render any
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` opinion on this. And so you're asking me to
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` give an opinion on the fly about something I
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` didn't opine upon, this topic isn't found in
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` my report.
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` So I will just say, you know, pending
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` further thought on this, you know -- because
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` I'm not -- my answer here is not -- I mean,
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` first of all, I'm not a legal expert.
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` Secondly, even as a technical expert,
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` I'm not giving an answer that has got any
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` study behind it or is responding to anybody
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` else's opinions that might arise.
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` But when I read this patent, I
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` certainly thought it's something that somebody
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` could build, you know.
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` Q. Mm-hmm. And you could help me
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` understand how somebody would build the system
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` disclosed in the 923 Patent; right?
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` A. Well, I mean, it depends on what that
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` line of questioning might mean. So I'm not
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` going to, you know, build this system for you
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` right now. I mean, I think the specification,
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` you know, fills that -- that goal to, you
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` know, teach the person of ordinary skill in
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` the art or the court regarding the 923 Patent.
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` Q. Okay. But I guess we'll see how we do
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` when we ask the specific questions and we'll
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` get into it.
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` Do you agree that one of the goals of
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` the patent is to create a system that allows
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` the searching of video surveillance data
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` without having to reprocess the video itself?
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` A. Well, okay. So you're using -- you
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` know, reprocess is a -- important term in the
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` claims, which I have given opinions about in
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` my declaration.
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` You know, you'll find the term
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` "reprocessing," one, two, three -- for
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` example, in the fifth limitation of claim 1.
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` So, I mean, I prefer to adhere to what
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` the claim language states rather than
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` repurposing the term and casting it in a
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` broader context that might be misunderstood.
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` The limitation states we're in the
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` step of identifying the event of the object
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` identifies the event without reprocessing the
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` video.
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` Okay. So some other statement about
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` reprocessing I make -- or that you make,
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` actually, I would have to go think about that
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` and understand what repercussions -- or how it
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` might be misunderstood.
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` So you talked about informing the
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` court. So, you know, any -- you know, opinion
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` like that, I would have to think about it to
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` best inform the court.
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` Q. Okay. Does the 923 Patent inventor
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` object detection?
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` A. Well, I haven't opined that the 923
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` invents object detection. It certainly
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` describes object detection. And a person of
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` ordinary skill in the art reading the
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` 923 Patent would understand what the patent's
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` talking about and would have a good idea about
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` how to go about object detection. Because it
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` had been around for -- you know, it had been
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` around already. People have been detecting
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` objects with algorithms previously. There's a
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` well-known art.
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` Q. Mm-hmm. Can you look for -- look at
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` column 5, the paragraph starting on line 6 for
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` me.
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` A. Column 5?
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` Q. Column 5, line 5 or 6. The paragraph
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` that begins with, "although."
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` Are you with me?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. Some -- obviously, take enough time as
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` you need to read, but I'm really most
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` interested in understanding the first sentence
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` there, and I'll read it into the record [as
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` read]:
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` "Although, the video
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` surveillance system of the
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` invention draws on
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` well-known computer vision
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` techniques from the public
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` domain" --
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` Then it goes on to say [as read]:
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` "The inventive video
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` surveillance system has
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` several unique novel
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` features that are not
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` currently available."
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` What are the computer vision
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` techniques from the public domain that the
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` patent draws on?
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` A. Well, I'm -- I haven't tried to create
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` a list, you know, and not anticipating this
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` question of these, so I'm not going to be able
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` to give you an exhaustive list of, you know,
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` the computer vision techniques.
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` And, you know, they -- some computer
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` vision techniques might be used by a person or
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` to a skill in the art because of their own
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` design choice and designing a system and, you
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` know, other ones might be used by another
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` person of ordinary skill in the art.
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` So, you know, broadly it may involve
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` things, like what we just mentioned, object
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` detection, which would be understood by a
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` person of ordinary skill in the art reading
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` this patent.
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` Q. Can you briefly describe for me what
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` object detection is and what it involves?
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` A. I mean, it is what it sounds like.
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` Okay. It's a -- in this context where we're
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` processing video, it's an algorithm that
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` detects objects.
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` I mean -- I mean, that sounds like
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` I'm being tricky with words, but I'm not.
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` It's -- you know, it's -- it's what it is.
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` Q. Okay. So let's just make sure we
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` understand each other.
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` So object detection is the process of
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` taking some video data and then identifying
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` objects within that video data; right?
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` A. So, you know, you've changed the
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` language here. You know, "identifying" is a
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` different word than "detecting," for example.
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` Q. Okay. So I don't want to make it
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` confusing, and I --
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` A. I'm not finished.
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` Q. -- don't want to con- -- oh, I'm
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` sorry.
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` A. I mean, limitation one detecting an
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` object in a video from a single camera. Okay.
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` I mean, so you're asking me about object
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` detection. It's a claim term, okay, so I have
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` to think of it in that regard.
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` So within the confines of the claim is
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` detecting an object in a video using a single
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` camera. Okay. So this is what we're talking
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` about.
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` Q. Okay. So just so we're clear, I'm not
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` actually asking about the claim right now.
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` I'm asking about existing systems in the art.
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` So as a person of skill in the art, what is
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` object detection?
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` A. Well, you know, in that -- if you're
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` asking me outside the claim then, you know,
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` any answer I give you would be prefaced by
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` observing that that answer doesn't relate to
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` the 923 Patent, okay, isn't, you know,
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` applicable to any of the arguments I've given
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` in my declaration, shouldn't be construed to
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` be coloring my opinions that I've already
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` given.
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` So -- but nevertheless, I'm not going
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` to give you a tricky answer there. It's --
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` you know, object detection is, you know, a
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` method which could be implemented in an
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` algorithm, you know, for detecting objects.
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` It's just what it sounds like. It's
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` not a -- you know, it's -- it's a complex
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` thing to do, okay, it's not a simple thing to
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` create or implement, but, you know, the
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` concept of detecting an object is, you know, I
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` think a person can easily understand that.
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` But again, this is not what the claim
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` is talking about. The claim is more specific.
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` It's detecting objects in the video from a
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` single camera.
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` Q. Mm-hmm. Does the claim use the term,
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` "object detection," in a way that's
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` inconsistent with the way a person of ordinary
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` skill in the art would otherwise understand
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` the term?
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` A. No. It's just the -- you know, the
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` patent talks about object detection as
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` something that a person of ordinary skill in
`
` the art would -- could understand, you know,
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` described it in the spec.
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` But it's specific in talking about
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` object detection in the claims in a very
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` specific way using a single camera. I mean,
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` you can -- you know, like some of the prior
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` references, you know, that -- you know, that
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` involve multiple cameras, all right, they
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` don't detect objects. Okay. But, you know,
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` you can use multiple cameras to detect
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` objects.
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` Q. Okay. Well, that's a lot to unpack
`
` there, so we'll just move on from that.
`
` Where in the patent would I look to
`
` find its disclosure of its unique system for
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` detecting objects?
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` A. I haven't given an opinion about any
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` kind of unique system for detecting objects.
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` Perhaps you could, you know --
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` Q. Okay. So --
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` A. -- and, you know, I'm not finished.
`
` Q. Mm-hmm.
`
` A. So to speak, hand me my report which I
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` already have, and point me to where I talk
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` about unique systems for detecting objects.
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` Q. I'm just trying to follow your -- your
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` testimony.
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` You said the patent claims are very
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` specific form of object detection from a
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` single camera. And what I want -- what I'm
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` asking is if the patent's claiming something
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` different from what a person of ordinary skill
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` in the art would understand it, can you point
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` me to where in the patent it describes that?
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` A. I think your question mischaracterizes
`
` what you said. I mean, can't remember --
`
` recite what your question was, but I will say
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` it doesn't -- all I said was that the claim is
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` directed towards object detection from a video
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` feed from a single camera.
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` Q. Mm-hmm.
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` A. That's all I've said. Okay. Is --
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` Q. Okay. Was that --
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` A. I haven't said anything else --
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` Q. Okay.
`
` A. -- about, you know, object detection,
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` than that, really.
`
` Q. At the time the 923 Patent was filed,
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` was object detection from a single camera a
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` unique new thing first described in this
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` patent?
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` A. I mean, object detection had been
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` around for a long time for one or more
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` cameras. So I haven't stated that -- that,
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` you know, the invention of Lipton is object
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` detection from a single camera. It's a
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` limitation of the claim is what it is.
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` Q. Mm-hmm. And so does the patent
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` disclose in the specification a way to perform
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` object detection from a single camera?
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` A. Before I answer that, okay, I want to
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` be clear that the limitations of a claim don't
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` exist in isolation.
`
` Okay. So, yeah, it says [as read]:
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` "Detecting an object in a
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` video from a single
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` camera."
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` All right. This means that the single
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` camera is relevant to the other limitations.
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` The term, "single camera," appears in the
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` second limitation as well.
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` All right. So that same -- you know,
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` that video is analyzed, the same video from
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` the same single camera.
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` So I don't want to give the impression
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` that the single camera thing is about just
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` detecting an object in the video. It's this
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` whole system, which is able to function, even
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` though it has just a single camera, as part of
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` its limiting factor.
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` And this is important, because, for
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` example, some other systems which, you know,
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` have been discussed in this case, like, you
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` know, Brill and Kellogg and so on. They
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` disclose multiple cameras to do their kind
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` of -- of processing, and they don't disclose a
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` single camera, and they -- they require more
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` cameras.
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` So it's not just about detecting an
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` object from a single camera. It's the whole
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` invention using a single camera.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` MR. MARTINELLI: So can we read my
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` question back again, please?
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` (Whereupon, the requested
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` testimony was read back.)
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` MR. MARTINELLI: Can you answer the
`
` question, please?
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` THE WITNESS: One more time.
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` BY MR. MARTINELLI:
`
` Q. I'll restate it.
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` Can you show me where in the patent it
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` discloses object detection from a single
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` camera?
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` A. Well, I mean, claim 1, for example.
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` This is what's claimed. Object detection from
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` a single camera, along with other aspects of
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` using a single camera. This is what's
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` claimed. I mean...
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` Q. And it's, in your words, the whole
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` invention; right?
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` Isn't that what you just said?
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` A. No. I said nothing like that. I
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` said, the aspect of a single camera colors the
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` whole invention. It's part of the whole
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` invention. I didn't say that using a single
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` camera is the whole invention. Please,
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` nothing like that.
`
` Q. Okay. Let me ask it this way, then.
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` If I want to build a system and I don't want
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` to run afoul of the 923 Patent, can I avoid
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` the 923 Patent by just having two cameras on
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` my system?
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` A. I -- I -- you know, have not given an
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` opinion on that. Okay. However, you know, I
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` think that there's a lot of other things that
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` make the 923 unique and patentable. So --
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` Q. Okay.
`
` A. -- I'm not --
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` Q. It's a different question, though.
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` A. You know, it's not my role to, you
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` know, give an opinion on another patent that
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` doesn't exist, but -- I'm not finished.
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` But the 923 claims as I describe in my
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` report have a number of unique things about
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` them. Okay. And, you know, what's at issue
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` here is the prior art, not some hypothetical,
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` you know, system which you're asking me to
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` build on the spot, which I'm not going to do.
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` Q. Okay. I'm not asking you to build a
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` system. We're talking about limitations of
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` the claim; right?
`
` A. I agree with that.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. And, well, we're talking about the
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` whole patent, too, yeah.
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` Q. Right. But most important thing for
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` determining validity is the limitations of the
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` claim; right?
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` A. I'm not a lawyer. I mean, I think the
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` specification and figures and everything are
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` important, too. You know what I mean?
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. And everybody's opinions.
`
` Q. Okay. Is it your opinion that the
`
` prior art is inapplicable to the patent
`
` because it has multiple cameras?
`
` A. I think that is an aspect of it. I
`
` mean, I give a lot of other opinions about why
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` the prior art is inapplicable. It's not just
`
` because of this camera question.
`
` Q. Mm-hmm.
`
` A. There's a lot of reasons why the prior
`
` art do not render the 923 Patent invalid,
`
` which is really your question --
`
` Q. Right.
`
` A. -- you know, response...
`
` Q. But any individual distinction could
`
` be enough to show that the prior art is not
`
` relevant to the claim; right?
`
` A. Are you asking me a legal question? I
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` mean, that's a legal question.
`
` Q. Well, no. Your -- your analysis was,
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` does the prior art cover the claim. One
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` reason you say the prior art doesn't cover the
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` claim is because it uses multiple cameras; is
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` that correct?
`
` A. Well, what I really say is, you know,
`
` the multiple pages I devote to this. Okay.
`
` So I don't want to encapsulate and give a
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` sound bite to, you know, simplify it.
`
` Okay. So, you know, what we ought to
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` do is you ought to ask me a question about
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` what I said about that single camera already
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` in my report, because that's what this, you
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` know, proceeding is about, the opinions I've
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` given already in my report, not new opinions
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` which I'm being asked to create on the spot.
`
` So --
`
` Q. Okay. So what this --
`
` A. -- I mean, I got -- you know, 63 pages
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` of opinions here and multiple pages about
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` precisely what you're asking me about.
`
` Q. Yeah.
`
` A. And, you know, so I -- I think you
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` ought to direct me to --
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` Q. Just to --
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` A. -- what I've already said.
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` Q. No, no, no. Just to clarify the job
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` here, the job here is to test the opinions in
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` your report and to test their veracity. It's
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` not just for you to restate what's in your
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` report. We can read the report. We can do
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` that.
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` So you have to defend the logic behind
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` the positions in your report. That's what
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` we're here to do. It's not a question.
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` Here's the question.
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` Can you show me where in the
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` specification of the patent it teaches
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` somebody how to detect objects with a single
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` camera?
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` MR. DOKHANCHY: Objection;
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` argumentative.
`
` THE WITNESS: And just to res- -- just
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` so I express my own understanding, in testing
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` my opinions, I mean, you need to refer to my
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` opinions. Okay. You're asking me about
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` something that I haven't rendered an opinion
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` upon, and I'm not trying to be argumentative.
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` I mean, I guess we're going back and forth
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` here a little bit, but, you know, the point is
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` you aren't asking me about anything in my
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` report at this moment that I've rendered an
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` opinion upon. So how can you be testing my
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` opinion about it?
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` But with that said, you know, I mean,
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` maybe you can -- I mean, maybe ask that last
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` part of the question again --
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` BY MR. MARTINELLI:
`
` Q. Sure.
`
` A. -- just so I have it straight.
`
` Q. Can you identify anywhere in the
`
` patent where the patent teaches somebody how
`
` to do object detection with a single camera?
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` A. I don't think it's necessary for the
`
` patent to, you know, specifically teach object
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` detection with a single camera. You know,
`
` there doesn't have to be a thing here
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` that -- because I think a person of ordinary
`
` skill in the art in reading the patent
`
` specification and reading the claims will
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` understand that -- how to do object detection
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` and how specifically they might for their
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` application do object detection with a single
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`Page 29
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-826-0277
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`Canon Ex. 1056 Page 29 of 271
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` camera, okay, so that's not necessary.
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` And I want to re- -- reiterate that
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` that person with ordinary skill in the art
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` would not only be considering how to do object
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` detection with a camera -- single camera, they
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` would also be thinking about the rest of the
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` limitations and how they would do that with a
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` single camera and how those things would all
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` interact.
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` So, you know, trying to isolate a
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` question about how a person would, you know,
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` detect an object using a single camera
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` is -- doesn't really, you know, go to the
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