HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL SOURCE CODE - AEO - CBI
`Transcript of Alan Bovik, Ph.D.
`Conducted on August 7, 2018
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` APPEARANCES
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`OR COMPLAINANT:
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` Alan P. Block
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` Lawrence M. Hadley
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` McKOOL SMITH HENNIGAN PC
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` 300 South Grande Avenue, Suite 2900
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` Los Angeles, California 9007
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`ON BEHAL O RESPONDENT:
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` Micah G. Block
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` DAVIS POLK & WARDWELL LLP
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` 600 El Camino Real
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` Menlo Park, California 94025
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`(650) 752 2023
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`VIDEOGRAPHER:
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` Leyhbert Sharp
`
` INDEX
` ALAN C. BOVIK, Ph.D.
` August 7, 20 8
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`APPEARANCES
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`PROCEEDINGS
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` EXAMINATION O ALAN C. BOVIK, Ph.D.:
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` BY MR. M. BLOCK
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`ACKNOWLEDGMENT O DEPONENT
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`REPORTER S CERTI ICATION
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` UNITED STATES INTERNATIONAL TRADE COMMISSION
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` WASHINGTON, D.C.
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`In The Matter of
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`x
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` :
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`CERTAIN DIGITAL VIDEO
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` : Investigation
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`RECEIVERS AND RELATED
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` : No. 337 TA
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`03
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`: x
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`HARDWARE AND SO TWARE
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`COMPONENTS
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` HIGHLY CON IDENTIAL SOURCE CODE
` ATTORNEYS EYES ONLY
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` CON IDENTIAL BUSINESS IN ORMATION
` SUBJECT TO PROTECTIVE ORDER
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` Deposition of
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` ALAN C. BOVIK, Ph.D.
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` Austin, Texas
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` Tuesday, August 7, 20 8
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`Job No.: 200880
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`Pages:
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`Reported by: Micheal A. Johnson, RDR, CRR
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` Deposition of ALAN C. BOVIK, Ph.D., held
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`at the location of:
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` McKool Smith
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` 300 West 6th Street, Suite 700
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` Austin, Texas 7870
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` (5 2) 692 8700
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` Pursuant to Agreement, before Micheal A.
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`Johnson, Registered Diplomate Reporter and
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`Certified Realtime Reporter.
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`Comcast, Exhibit-1227
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`HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL SOURCE CODE - AEO - CBI
`Transcript of Alan Bovik, Ph.D.
`Conducted on August 7, 2018
`65
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`17 (65 to 68)
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`on page 16. Fair?
` A. This is some of my opinion regarding the
`'011 patent.
` Q. So for example, in paragraph 59, after
`describing some problems that existed at the time
`of the invention, you state your opinion that,
`"The methods and systems described and claimed by
`the '011 and '394 patents solve these problems by
`allowing the user to enter a search query for an
`item, where each item has a name comprising one or
`more words."
` Correct?
` A. Yes, it certainly says that. Yes.
` Q. And in paragraph 60, you give opinions
`regarding how an index is created using the
`claimed invention, correct?
` A. I mean, this is part of my opinion
`regarding index, yeah.
` Q. And in paragraph 62, you provide part of
`your opinions regarding an example search using
`the claimed invention, correct?
` A. Fair enough. Again, this isn't my
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`complete opinion, but yeah.
` Q. And specifically referring to paragraph 62
`of your infringement report, it's your opinion,
`Dr. Bovik, that in the invention of the
`'011 patent, "Users search for items by
`incrementally inputting unresolved overloaded keys
`(e.g., inputting one overloaded key at a time)
`which are intended when disambiguated, to
`represent a prefix substring of at least one word
`in the name of the item."
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` Correct?
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` A. That is indeed expressed in my report.
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` Q. Okay. And that's your opinion, correct?
`13
` A. This is my written opinion. It's my
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`opinion.
` Q. Let me refer you to page 16 of your
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`infringement report. You have a heading No. 4
` Q. In paragraph 64 of your infringement
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`that says, "Invention of the '011 Patent,"
`report, you reproduce Figures 6A and 6B of the
`17
`correct?
`'011 patent, correct?
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` A. That is correct.
` A. I did.
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` Q. And you set forth some opinions regarding
` Q. And in Figures 6A and 6B of the
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`the invention of the '011 patent in the section of
`'011 patent, the user has entered the numbers 866
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`your infringement report that follows that heading
`using the keypad in Figure 6A, and highlighted
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`HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL SOURCE CODE - AEO - CBI
`Transcript of Alan Bovik, Ph.D.
`Conducted on August 7, 2018
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`search results for that user input appear in
`Figure 6B; is that fair?
` A. I think that -- yeah. I don't see any
`problem with that.
` Q. And your opinion is that the search
`depicted in Figures 6A and 6B is an example of a
`search that's within the scope of at least the
`independent claims of the '011 and '394 patents,
`correct?
` A. I mean, it's part of the specification,
`and, you know, the purpose of the specification is
`to instruct somebody who may try to practice the
`claims and I think that these can be used for a
`person of ordinary skill in the art to try to
`practice those claims, sure.
` Q. But you don't have an opinion that
`Figure 6A and 6B depict an unclaimed embodiment or
`something outside the scope, correct?
` A. I wasn't -- I haven't expressed such an
`opinion.
` Q. Can we start with the first result in
`Figure 6B of the '011 patent. My question is, why
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` Q. So as you state in paragraph 66, the "TOO"
`in the word "TOON" is highlighted because the
`letters "TOO" are one alphanumeric translation of
`the unresolved key stroke entry 866; is that fair?
` A. I think you're saying, did I say that
`exactly.
` Q. No.
` A. You didn't read --
` Q. I was not reading from --
` A. Sounds like you were going to read --
` Q. With reference to 866, but let me just ask
`you a question. Is it fair to say that in
`Figure 6B of the '011 patent, the letters "TOO" in
`the word "TOON" are highlighted because TOO is one
`alphanumeric translation of the unresolved key
`stroke entry 866?
` A. I would say that, you know, it's part of
`the reason why it's highlighted. I mean, sure.
` Q. Right. And the letters "TOO" are letters
`that correspond to the numeric search query 866 in
`the examples shown with Figure 6A and 6B, correct?
` A. I mean, in this hypothetical system, sure.
`
`70
`is the "TOO" in the word "TOON" highlighted there?
` A. So again, this is a teaching. I'm not
`trying to say anything about the claim language or
`anything else, but if you refer to the -- 6A,
`which shows the overloaded keypad, you can see
`that the system saw that an 8 was entered, you
`know, in some hypothetical system that does this,
`which is an overloaded key and has TUV on it, and,
`you know, I -- keep in mind that this isn't trying
`to show every part of a claim. It's not trying to
`show necessarily, you know -- when I look at this
`figure, I'm not trying to do any mapping to every
`limitation of the claim, like ordering or
`whatever, but what I can say is, that -- keeping
`that in mind, that, you know, T was on the
`overloaded 8 key, O was on the overloaded 6 key
`and O was on the overloaded 6 key of some, you
`know, stored information. And so the system had a
`way of determining, you know, which way to, you
`know, perform a mapping from the overloaded keys
`to, you know, prefix substrings and highlighting
`them.
`
` Q. The letters "TOO" appear a second time in
`the search result TOON:Cartoon Network, correct?
` A. Yeah, sure.
` Q. Specifically the letters "TOO" appear not
`only in the word "TOON" but also in the word
`"Cartoon" in the search result "TOON:Cartoon
`Network" figure depicted in 6B, correct?
` A. Yeah.
` Q. But in Figure 6B of the '011 patent, the
`second instance of the letters "TOO" in the search
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`result "TOON:Cartoon Network" are not highlighted,
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`correct?
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` A. You know, there's a lot of ways you can
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`implement the claim language, and even if you
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`interpret, you know, this embodiment with this
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`figure as, you know, possibly an -- you know, an
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`implementation of the claim language, the second
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`limitation of the claim talks about, you know,
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`determining which letters and numbers, et cetera,
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`et cetera, are associated with keystrokes and, you
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`know, you can follow different rules of which ones
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`you associate. You might just associate -- you
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`19 (73 to 76)
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`HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL SOURCE CODE - AEO - CBI
`Transcript of Alan Bovik, Ph.D.
`Conducted on August 7, 2018
`73
`may be in some system, and it doesn't have to be
`any particular system and I'm not talking about
`the accused system, it may be that, you know, the
`method -- you see in the preamble, method and then
`the second limitation, determining which, the
`method determining may do that in a certain way.
`Okay.
` And then so if you look at the claim with
`highlighting -- you know, and again this is just a
`teaching, there's a lot of different ways you can
`implement this, you know, that method determining
`which and then subsequently highlighting -- that
`method only highlights the instance in the first
`word, because all the characters were in the first
`word maybe. Okay.
` MR. M. BLOCK: Move to strike as
`nonresponsive.
`BY MR. M. BLOCK:
` Q. Dr. Bovik, my question is this: In
`Figure 6B of the '011 patent, the second instance
`of the letters "TOO" in the search result
`"TOON:Cartoon Network," are not highlighted,
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`are highlighted are the same characters that are
`determined to have caused the association
`according to the claims, in your opinion, correct?
` A. You know, my reading of that, if I look
`at, you know, the -- I'll say column 7 and my
`reading of, you know, the associated specification
`related to Figures 6 and 7, there is a method
`which determines which characters to map and
`ostensibly, I mean, you can tell by looking at
`this example, you can -- it's clear that, you
`know, the first word is, you know, addressed
`first, shall we say, and it found all the
`characters there and it highlighted them. Okay.
`And, you know, you could have a method that, you
`know, does something different, but this is the
`method that is explained here. And I think it's
`pretty clear.
` Q. Okay. And so referring again to Figure 6B
`of the '011 patent, you can infer from Figure 6B,
`that the letters "TOO" in "Cartoon" are not
`letters that caused the item for the search result
`"TOON:Cartoon Network" to be associated with the
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`correct?
` A. That's a different question. I agree,
`yeah, that's a yes. You asked me something else.
` Q. Why isn't the "TOO" in the word "Cartoon
`Network" -- strike that.
` Why isn't the "TOO" in the word "Cartoon"
`highlighted in the search result for "TOON:Cartoon
`Network" in Figure 6B of the '011 patent?
` A. I think that's the question you asked me
`previously. So I mean, I've already answered
`that. You said it was unresponsive. But I
`said -- let me just say, the method determining
`which characters are mapped did it that way.
` Q. So the highlighting is done according to
`the method that determined which characters are
`mapped to the numeric user input in the claim of
`the '011 patent. Is that your testimony?
` A. Well, it's the same method. Okay. So
`it's a method determining which and a method
`highlighting, and I think they're related. Okay.
`So I do think those are related.
` Q. The highlighting -- the characters that
`
`number 866, because if they were, they would be
`highlighted, correct?
` A. I just said there's a relationship between
`the determining which and the highlighting. Okay.
`I mean, if -- you know, the entire limitation I
`could read out and take time. I'm not going to do
`that. I'm going to say that this is a -- comes
`from a spec, which is a teaching. So given that
`it's a spec, and my understanding by law, the spec
`need not infringe the claim language, for example,
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`you know, I would infer that the method -- if you
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`did take some claim language to understand it, you
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`know, the method determining which identifies
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`those first three characters, it could conceivably
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`identify the next ones and then only highlight the
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`first three. You know, I think both would be okay
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`as far as the claim language.
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`language --
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`step back a little bit, because in the
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`limitation -- if I map to the limitation, okay,
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`HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL SOURCE CODE - AEO - CBI
`Transcript of Alan Bovik, Ph.D.
`Conducted on August 7, 2018
`77
`and keep in mind I've got this dichotomy that the
`specification is generally teaching and not a
`mapping necessarily to the claim language, just an
`instruction, given that, you know, the
`"highlighting letters and numbers" -- this is from
`column 9, lines, you know, 4 and onward --
`"present in the one or more words in said
`information describing the identified items that
`were determined to have caused the displayed items
`to be associated with the strings of unresolved
`keystrokes that are directly mapped to said items
`received so as to illustrate to the user how the
`unresolved keystrokes entered match the
`information associated with the displayed items."
` I think if you highlight, you know, just
`those first three, whether or not the other ones
`were matched or not, I don't see -- it's not clear
`to me that there's any conflict with the claim
`language.
` Q. Are the letters "TOO" a prefix substring
`for the word "Cartoon" in "TOON:Cartoon Network"?
` A. I mean, I don't view those -- let me go
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`know, I mean, I think you would still be, you
`know, highlighting -- I mean, these are long
`limitations. You'd still be -- you know, in such
`a system that -- let's just put it this way. If a
`system was determining which letters and,
`et cetera, in the second limitation and in the
`third limitation these were -- I'm trying to
`paraphrase very long limitations, I'm just going
`to say, suppose that the limitations were met with
`respect to the first three characters. If you
`highlighted the other ones, you know, I haven't
`thought about that, but, you know, it's kind of
`immaterial to me in terms of infringement. I
`don't think that affects infringement if you do
`something extra.
`BY MR. M. BLOCK:
` Q. And my question is slightly different.
`It's that the limitations are met with respect to
`the first three characters, but in addition, the
`"TOO" in "Cartoon" are letters that caused the
`item to be associated with the user input 866 and
`yet are not highlighted, would that be within the
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`back to -- what page was that on? There. I don't
`scope of the claims, according to your opinion?
`view, you know, the "TOO" in "Cartoon" as a
` MR. A. BLOCK: Object to form.
` A. Actually you asked me a different question
`prefix, but, again, I'm not talking about
`than that. You asked me about those being
`Figure 6B infringing. I'm just saying you could
`highlighted, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
`have a system -- you could have a method that, you
`BY MR. M. BLOCK:
`know, finds that prefix, but whether or not it
`finds something in the middle of a word is --
` Q. Well, my question now is, if the
`doesn't change whether that first infringement is
`limitations are met with respect to the first
`occurring.
`three characters, but in addition, the "TOO" in
`"Cartoon" are letters that caused the item to be
` Q. So in your opinion, you could have a
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`method that -- in which both the "TOO" in "TOON"
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`highlighted, would that be within the scope of the
`and the "TOO" in "Cartoon Network" caused the item
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`claims, according to your opinion?
`for "TOON:Cartoon Network" to be associated with
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` MR. A. BLOCK: Object to form.
`the numeric string 866 and the search results
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` A. I mean, I think you're using the word
`highlight only the "TOO" in "TOON," and that would
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`"caused" here improperly. "Caused" is a word
`not necessarily be outside the scope of the claims
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`that's in the second limitation. Okay. And I
`as you read them?
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`think, you know, the method which determining
` MR. A. BLOCK: Object to the form.
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`causes things to happen. I don't think letters
` A. I haven't really thought about that. You
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`know, I would have to think about this
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`involved in a happening, so to speak. So I mean I
`highlighting of, you know -- I mean, if a system
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`reject your premise in terms of how to read the
`does something extra and then highlights it, you
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`HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL SOURCE CODE - AEO - CBI
`Transcript of Alan Bovik, Ph.D.
`Conducted on August 7, 2018
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`BY MR. M. BLOCK:
` Q. The correct reading is determining which
`"letters and numbers present in the information
`associated with and describing the indexed items
`of said subset caused said items to be associated
`with the strings of one or more unresolved
`keystrokes that are directly mapped to said
`subset."
` Correct?
` A. Well, I was correct and you were correct
`in reading -- you know, you read the limitation
`just from beginning to end. I read the
`limitation, as well as part of the preamble to
`explain, you know, how the word "caused" is used
`and what does the causing in caused, so to speak.
` Q. And your --
` A. And so I left out some stuff that isn't
`causing it.
` Q. Your opinion is that the letters don't do
`the causing. Is that correct or incorrect?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay.
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` A. It's the method determining which that
`does the causing. Clearly.
` Q. Will you turn to page 49 of your
`infringement report --
` A. Sure.
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`claim language.
`BY MR. M. BLOCK:
` Q. It would be inaccurate to say that letters
`caused the association of an item to a numeric
`string, as a technical matter?
` MR. A. BLOCK: Object to form.
` A. Who knows in some other environment than
`what we're talking about. But when I read the
`claim language, I see, you know, said method
`determining which letters and -- let's see. Yeah,
`I mean, the "which determining" clearly is what
`caused said items to be associated with the
`strings of one or more unresolved keystrokes. The
`method which -- I just want to point out for the
`record, I'm sure it's already all on the record,
`but in this deposition, that in limitation 2, the
`words "which" and "determining" are transposed.
`So the method determining which caused said items
`to be associated with the strings of one or more
`unresolved keystrokes that are directly mapped to
`said subset. I mean, that is the correct reading
`of the claim language.
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`HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL SOURCE CODE- AEO- CBI
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`Transcript of Alan Bovik, Ph.D.
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`Conducted on August 7, 2018
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`numbers in the words of the title, whatever, the
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`So you know, in somesense that — I mean,
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`11 to put it another way, the method -- you're not
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`12 going to believe this, I'm reading from claim 17.
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`13 I turned to the wrongpage.
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`Anyways, very similar. The method
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`15 comprising could bea lot of things, but in -- for
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`21 Q. How does the determininglimitation limit
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`22 the scope ofthe claims in a way that they aren't
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`22 numbers presentin thetitle of the item that
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`1
`to that as a determining limitation. Okay?
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`<A. Yeah, I have no problem with that.
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`Q. And you say in paragraph 187, that the
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`4 determininglimitation, quote, "further defines
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`<A. Where are you pointing to that?
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`A. This says, "This limitation further
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`10 defines" — yes. Okay. Yeah.
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`11 Q. Okay. And when yousay, in paragraph 187,
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`12 "This limitation further defines the index of
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`13 claim la," you're referrmg to the determming
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`14 limitation, correct?
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`15 A. Yes. Yeah.
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`16 Q. What do you mean by the statement that
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`17 "the determining limitation further defines the
`18 index of claim la"?
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`19 A. Well, I mean, right from the claim
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`20 language, the method — you have to consider the
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`21 whole limitation. That for at least one subset of
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`22 items, which ostensibly would be stored in a
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`PLANET DEPOS
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`888.433.3767 | WWW.PLANETDEPOS.COM
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`ee
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`Q. Would you turn to paragraph 187 of your
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`determininglimitation of claim | of the
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`9 ‘O11 patent, correct?
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`10 A. Well, not onlythe determining but the
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`11 direct mapping aspect.
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`12 Q. Andjust so we're on the same page, when I
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`13 refer to the determining limitation, I'm referring
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`14 to the entire limitation that you reproduced with
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`15 the label "Claim 1b" on page 75 of your report.
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`16 Okay?
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`17. A.
`I mean, 187 is about "claim 1a," not "1b."
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`18 I think that maybe that is a -- no, we're fine.
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`19 take it back.
`I just confused myself. Yeah,
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`20 we're talking about claim Ib.
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`21 Q. AndI'm going to referto that as a
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`22 determininglimitation and I have beenreferring
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`MR. A. BLOCK: Object to form.
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`A. Becauseit affects the process of search.
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`You have items somewhere in a library or something
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`and —- so the way in which you accomplish that —
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`I'll use the word "matching" — matching of these
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`indices to, I'll just say "strings," in, you know,
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`the items that — subset of items, the method
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`10 determining which can be varied so that the wayin
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`11 which the search is conducted may vary.
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`12 BY MR. M. BLOCK:
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`13. Q. Dr. Bovik, what does the determining
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`14 limitation require that's not already required by
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`15 the indexinglimitation, in your opinion?
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`MR. A. BLOCK: Object to form.
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`17. A. Well, as I state, it requires that for at
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`18 least one -- I mean,this is just in my report and
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`19 I've rewordedit in a different way for you with
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`20 more detail. It requires that for at least one of
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`21 the subsets of items in the index, the letters and
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`already limited by the indexing limitation,if at
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`HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL SOURCE CODE- AEO - CBI
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`Transcript of Alan Bovik, Ph.D.
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`August 7, 2018
`Conducted on
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`| 1
`characters that were 'determined'or ‘identified’
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`2 in the prior determining step (claim b)."
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`Did I read that portion of your report
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`4 correctly?
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`A. Yes.
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`MR. A. BLOCK: Youleft out Ib. You said
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`7 just "claim b."
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`A. Oh,yeah, I understoodit to be claim 1b,
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`9 but yeah.
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`10 BY MR. M. BLOCK:
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`11 Q. Andis it your opinionthat the claims do
`12 notrequire that the highlighting be of the same
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`13 characters that were determined oridentified in
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`15 "claim 1b"?
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`16
`MR. A. BLOCK: Objectto form.
`(Witness reviews document.)
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`18 A. So I mean, what the claim language states
`19 is highlighting the letters and numbers present in
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`20 the one or more words in said information. Okay.
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`21 Anumberwith the information describing the
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`22 identified item. So the informationis basically
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`62
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`that index, and I'm not saying that.
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`Q. Okay. And so the determining limitation
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`requires something more than just the Comcast
`indexitself as you read the claims on the Comcast
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`system?
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`MR. A. BLOCK: Object to form.
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`A. Well, it needs a lot more.
`I mean,
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`specifically, I mean, when we say "index," we have
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`to understand what kind of indexit is and where
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`10 it comes from, and the fact that unresolved
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`11 keystrokes of, you know, keys that are overloaded.
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`12 So there's an awful lot. You need the whole claim
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`13 to understand this really, because the various
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`14 elements, the various limitations of the claim
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`15 are — affect one another and comingle with one
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`16 another. So I mean, my answeris yes, you need
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`17 more. I forget the exact question, but you need
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`18 more.
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`19 BY MR. M. BLOCK:
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`20 Q. In paragraph 228 of your infringement
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`21 report you say, "Comcast misreads the claim as
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`22 requiring that the highlighting be of the same
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`a title, that were determined to have caused the
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`displayed items to be associated with the strings
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`to said items received so as to illustrate to the
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`user how the unresolved keystrokes match the
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`I mean, the first thing I'll sayis, that
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`the limitation, but it also highlights the matched
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`‘10 letters, but I don't think the claim requires that
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`‘11 those be the onlythings highlighted or that there
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`12 can't be other things highlighted as well. I
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`'13 think — I think Comcastis trying to collapse and
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`'14 misinterpret the claim language here, whereas the
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`(15 claim language reads plainly.
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`16 BY MR. M. BLOCK:
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`17 Q. But youstand by the opinion, Dr. Bovik,
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`18 thatit is a misreading of the claim to understand
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`19 it as, "requiring that the highlighting be ofthe
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`/20 same characters that were determined oridentified
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`|21 in the prior determming step," correct?
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`\22 A. I don't think that the claim language
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`PLANET DEPOS
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`888.433.3767 | WWW. PLANETDEPOS.COM
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`41 (161 to 164)
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`caused the item to be directly mapped to the
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`Okay. And so I'm not sure whatelse
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`BY MR. M. BLOCK:
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`Q. I'm tryingto figure out —
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`A. It answers the question.
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`Q. I'mtrying to figure out what it adds.
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`10 BecauseI think you've said that the indexingis
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`11 the determining, in Comcast's system atleast.
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`MR. A. BLOCK: Object to form.
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`13. A.
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`15 BY MR. M. BLOCK:
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`16 Q. That's not your opinion, that the indexing
`17 nm Comcast's system satisfies the determining
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`18 limitation?
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`19 A.
`I think the index is required. Okay. I
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`20 mean, you know, I'm not a lawyer. I think — I'm
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`21 guessing that when you say "satisfied," you mean
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`22 like nothing else in the universe is needed but
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`HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL SOURCE CODE- AEO - CBI
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`Transcript of Alan Bovik, Ph.D.
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`Conducted on August 7, 2018
`65
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`42 (165 to 168)
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`1 precludes highlighting something else as well.
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`Q. But doesit require at least highlighting
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`3 the same characters that were determined or
`4 identified in the prior determiningstep, as you
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`5 read it?
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`A. That's not what the sentence in myreport
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`QQ. But that's my question.
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`A. Let me finish my answer.
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`10 says, misreads the claim as requiring that the
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`11 highlight be of the same characters. Okay. And
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`12 that is — that kind of language, to me, means
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`13 those and only those characters, for example. So
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`14 your follow-on question, I just am pointing out
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`15 thatit's not the same question andit's not
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`16 addressing the same sentence. So if you want to
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`17 ask your question again, I'm fine with that.
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`18 Q. In your reading ofthe claims,is it
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`19 necessary to highlight at least the same
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`20 characters that were determined oridentified in
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`21 the prior determining step?
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`22
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`minimal, but as I express in paragraph 219, and
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`I'm just describing the context of Comcast, but
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`this is what the claim teaches, highlighting --
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`"Comcast, in response to each unresolved
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`keystroke, as the identified items are displayed,
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`highlights the letters and numbers present in the
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`one or more wordsin said information describing
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`the identified items that were determined to have
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`'9 caused the displayed items to be associated with
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`|10 the strings of unresolved keystrokes that are
`11 directly mapped to said itemsso asfo illustrate
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`|12 to the user how the unresolved keystrokes entered
`13 matched the information associated with the
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`14 displayed items."
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`417 for example, I'm pointing out that, you know, the
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`118 letters and numbers are present in the one or more
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`19 words in said information, describing the
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`|20 identified items such as, you know,thetitle, for
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`So I think that rather than, you know,an
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`excerpt of a requirement, you need to — it needs
`1 give you a break to consider my question while he
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`to be