UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
` PANASONIC CORPORATION OF NORTH AMERICA, et al.,
`
` Petitioners,
`
` v.
`
` CELLSPIN SOFT, INC.
`
` Patent Owner
`
` CASE: Unassigned
`
` Patent No. 9,258,698
`
` PETITION FOR INTER PARTES REVIEW
`
` OF U.S. PATENT NO. 9,258,698
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` Veritext Legal Solutions
`
`24
`
` Mid-Atlantic Region
`
` 1250 Eye Street NW - Suite 350
`
`25
`
` Washington, D.C. 20005
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2019-00131
`PANASONIC EX. 1022, p. 1 of 13
`
`

`

` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 2
`
` TELEPHONIC HEARING
`
` February 25, 2019
`
`Reported by: Ahuva Goldberger
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`IPR2019-00131
`PANASONIC EX. 1022, p. 2 of 13
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`

`

`APPEARANCES:
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`Page 3
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` ON BEHALF OF PANASONIC CORPORATION OF NORTH
`
`AMERICA:
`
` T. VANN PEARCE, JR., ESQUIRE
`
` Orrick Herrington & Sutcliffe
`
` Columbia Center
`
` 1152 15th Street, N.W.
`
` Washington, D.C. 20005-1706
`
` Telephone: 202-339-8696
`
` E-mail: Vpearce@orrick.com
`
` ON BEHALF OF CELLSPIN SOFT, INC.:
`
` JOHN J. EDMONDS, ESQUIRE
`
` Collins Edmonds Schlather & Tower, PLLC
`
` 355 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2450
`
` Los Angeles, California 90071
`
` Telephone: 213-973-7846
`
` E-mail: Jedmonds@ip-lit.com
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`IPR2019-00131
`PANASONIC EX. 1022, p. 3 of 13
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`

`

` - - - - -
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` PROCEEDINGS
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`Whereupon,
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`Page 4
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` (Proceedings commenced at 11:30 a.m.)
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` MR. PEARCE: Good morning, your Honor. This
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`is Vann Pearce, for the petitioners.
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` JUDGE ANDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Pearce. For
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`patent owner, an entry, please.
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` MR. EDMONDS: Good morning, Your Honor.
`
`This is John Edmonds. I'll be doing the talking, but
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`also on the line is my colleague, Eric Carr. We're
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`here on behalf of the patent owner. We refer to the
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`patent owner as Cellspin.
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` JUDGE ANDERSON: Very good. Thank you,
`
`Mr. Edmonds. Mr. Carr, glad to have you join us.
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`Okay. So the petitioner has asked for leave to file a
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`reply to the patent owner's preliminary response.
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` And with that, first of all, if anybody has
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`a court reporter on the line, let me know. I'm
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`assuming there is none. So go ahead, Mr. Pearce. What
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`are we looking at here?
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` MR. PEARCE: Briefly, Your Honor, is someone
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`from Veritext on the line? We made an arrangement for
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`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
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`IPR2019-00131
`PANASONIC EX. 1022, p. 4 of 13
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`a court reporter to join. Is anyone on?
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` MADAM COURT REPORTER: Yes, I am.
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` JUDGE ANDERSON: Okay. Well, Mr. Pearce, as
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`you made that arrangement, would you see to it that the
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`transcript of this call gets filed as an exhibit in the
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`case, please.
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` MR. PEARCE: Certainly. And with that, Your
`
`Honor, just to briefly address the issue here. The
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`patent owner had argued in its preliminary response
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`that there is a lack of standing to institute the IPR
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`because of a ruling of invalidity in a co-pending
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`litigation by district court. The patent owner is
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`currently appealing that ruling, and it is before the
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`federal circuit now.
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` We have requested leave to file a short
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`reply for each, which I think would be no more than
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`three pages to address that lack of standing argument.
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`And there are really two reasons why there is good
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`cause to allow our reply brief here.
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` The first is that the patent owner has cited
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`a number of cases in support of this argument. This is
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`on page 42 of the preliminary response. These cases
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`are clearly different situations than the case at hand.
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` These are -- claims in this case were either
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`canceled by the patent owner, or there was a final
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2019-00131
`PANASONIC EX. 1022, p. 5 of 13
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`Page 6
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`judgement after all appeals, which was not the
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`situation here.
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` This is not an argument we submit we
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`reasonably could have expected to address in the
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`petition. We would like the opportunity to address the
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`substance of that argument, and we submit the board may
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`also benefit from having a complete record on this
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`issue, which is really a legal issue.
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` And the second point I'll make is, in the
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`past, the board has given petitioners leave to address
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`in the reply briefs arguments of a lack of standing or
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`similar types of arguments.
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` So this is not something, of course,
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`directed to substantive questions of claim construction
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`or invalidity. It's more of a legal question that we
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`think is appropriate to address in a brief reply.
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` That's an overview of our position. Of
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`course I am happy to answer any questions.
`
` JUDGE ANDERSON: Now, that's great.
`
`Mr. Edmonds, what's your response?
`
` MR. EDMONDS: Your Honor, the petitioner has
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`not shown good cause to file a reply. As disclosed in
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`the patent owner's response, the ruling is on appeal.
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`We attached a copy of the ruling to the response, so
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`there's no factual disputes there.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2019-00131
`PANASONIC EX. 1022, p. 6 of 13
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`Page 7
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` This is a legal issue. It's a legal issue
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`that Panasonic was certainly aware of. They're one of
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`the parties. That was a successful motion that
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`resulted in the ruling of un-patentability that's
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`appended to the respondent's brief.
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` And they cited no intervening authorities or
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`any new propositions of law. They just disagree with
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`the legal argument that the patent owner is making, and
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`that's not good cause for reply.
`
` JUDGE ANDERSON: Let me ask Mr. -- well, see
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`as how you're relying on the standing argument,
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`Mr. Edmonds, what's the status of the federal circuit
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`appeal?
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` MR. EDMONDS: The federal circuit appeal is
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`scheduled for oral argument on April 5th. It's fully
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`briefed and scheduled for oral argument on April 5th of
`
`this year.
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` JUDGE ANDERSON: Do you have any information
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`that you can add to that, Mr. Pearce?
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` MR. PEARCE: I know we just got the ruling
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`-- or, excuse me, the order of scheduling argument as
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`Mr. Edmonds mentioned last Friday. And beyond that, I
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`don't think there's anything more that either side can
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`say about how that appeal will go. And of course the
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`outcome of it is uncertain at this point.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2019-00131
`PANASONIC EX. 1022, p. 7 of 13
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` JUDGE ANDERSON: Okay. Well, the issue is
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`not really something we need to decide at this point,
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`but I think the panel is interested in hearing the
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`other side of this standing issue, as you labeled it,
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`Mr. -- I guess Mr. Edmonds talks about it as a standing
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`issue.
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` So let me consult with the panel a little
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`bit, and I'll be right back with you, and give you a
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`ruling here. So hang on.
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` (A short break was taken.)
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` JUDGE ANDERSON: Okay, counsel. The panel
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`has had a moment to confer here. We're going to allow
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`petitioner to file a three-page reply as requested.
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`That reply will be due one week from today, which I
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`don't have a calendar quite in front of me, but I think
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`that's March 7th -- something. I don't know. Whatever
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`it is -- March 4th. Thank you. One of my panelists
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`has a calendar there. Well, actually, I do, too. I
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`just missed it. March 4th is a week from today. Is
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`that going to be okay for you, Mr. Pearce?
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` MR. PEARCE: Yes, Your Honor.
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` JUDGE ANDERSON: And there will be no reply,
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`Mr. Edmonds. We understand what your position is. If
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`something were to happen, which it doesn't appear that
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`that will be the case, in the federal circuit appeal,
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2019-00131
`PANASONIC EX. 1022, p. 8 of 13
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`we expect the parties to notify us of what's going on
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`there.
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` As you know, the decision on institution is
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`due, I believe, April 30th. And so that's a little bit
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`after your oral argument. If anything were to happen,
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`please advise us.
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` Other than that, let me see if either of my
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`panel members has anything to add, and we will go from
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`there. Okay. We are -- we have no questions of you.
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`Mr. Pearce, do you have anything further?
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` MR. PEARCE: No, Your Honor.
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` JUDGE ANDERSON: Mr. Edmonds, anything
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`further from you?
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` MR. EDMONDS: No, your honor.
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` JUDGE ANDERSON: Okay. With that, we will
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`issue an order shortly, and we will expect the
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`petitioner to file its reply a week from Monday, on
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`March 4th. And we have nothing further. With that, we
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`are adjourned. Thank you all for participating.
`
`Appreciate it. Bye-bye.
`
` MR. PEARCE: Thank you, Your Honor.
`
` MR. EDMONDS: Thank you, Your Honor.
`
` (Proceedings concluded at 11:38 a.m.)
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2019-00131
`PANASONIC EX. 1022, p. 9 of 13
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`

`

` REPORTER CERTIFICATE
`
`Page 10
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` I, AHUVA GOLDBERGER, Certified Shorthand
`
`Reporter, do hereby certify that there came before me
`
`via tele-conference, the above-referenced parties, that
`
`the proceeding was translated and proofread using
`
`computer-aided transcription, and the above transcript
`
`of proceedings is a true and accurate transcript of my
`
`notes as taken at the time of said event. I further
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`certify that I am neither attorney nor counsel for nor
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`related nor employed by any of the parties to the
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`action in which this examination is taken; further,
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`that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or
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`counsel employed by the parties hereto or financially
`
`interested in this action.
`
` As witness my hand and notarial seal this
`
`25th day of February, 2019.
`
` <%17404,Signature%>
`
` Ahuva Goldberger
`
` Notary Public
`
`My Commission Expires:
`
`May 21, 2019
`
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`PANASONIC EX. 1022, p. 10 of 13
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`[& - doing]
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`&
`& 3:6,15
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`1152 3:8
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`15th 3:8
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`20005 1:25
`20005-1706 3:9
`2019 2:5 10:18,25
`202-339-8696 3:10
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`213-973-7846 3:18
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`30th 9:4
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`9,258,698 1:11,14
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`america 1:4 3:4
`anderson 4:9,16
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`angeles 3:17
`answer 6:18
`anybody 4:20
`appeal 1:2 2:2
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`appealing 5:13
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`appropriate 6:16
`april 7:15,16 9:4
`argued 5:9
`argument 5:17,21
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`arguments 6:11
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`arrangement 4:25
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`asked 4:18
`assuming 4:22
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`atlantic 1:24
`attached 6:24
`attorney 10:10,13
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`aware 7:2
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`believe 9:4
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`break 8:10
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`california 3:17
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`canceled 5:25
`carr 4:13,17
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`cause 5:19 6:22
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`cellspin 1:7 3:13
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`construction 6:14
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`directed 6:14
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`disclosed 6:22
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`district 5:12
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`m
`madam 5:2
`mail 3:11,19
`making 7:8
`march 8:16,17,19
`9:18
`members 9:8
`mentioned 7:22
`mid 1:24
`missed 8:19
`moment 8:12
`monday 9:17
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`Page 2
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`morning 4:7,11
`motion 7:3
`n
`
`n.w. 3:8
`need 8:2
`neither 10:10
`new 7:7
`north 1:4 3:3
`notarial 10:17
`notary 10:22
`notes 10:9
`notify 9:1
`number 5:21
`nw 1:24
`
`o
`office 1:1 2:1
`okay 4:18 5:3 8:1
`8:11,20 9:9,15
`opportunity 6:5
`oral 7:15,16 9:5
`order 7:21 9:16
`orrick 3:6
`orrick.com 3:11
`outcome 7:25
`overview 6:17
`owner 1:8 4:10,14
`4:15 5:9,12,20,25
`7:8
`owner's 4:19 6:23
`p
`page 5:22 8:13
`pages 5:17
`panasonic 1:4 3:3
`7:2
`panel 8:3,7,11 9:8
`panelists 8:17
`partes 1:13
`participating 9:19
`parties 7:3 9:1
`10:5,11,14
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2019-00131
`PANASONIC EX. 1022, p. 12 of 13
`
`

`

`Page 3
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`un 7:4
`unassigned 1:10
`uncertain 7:25
`understand 8:23
`united 1:1 2:1
`v
`
`v 1:6
`vann 3:5 4:8
`veritext 1:23 2:25
`4:25
`vpearce 3:11
`w
`washington 1:25
`3:9
`week 8:14,19 9:17
`witness 10:17
`y
`year 7:17
`
`[patent - year]
`
`patent 1:1,2,8,11
`1:14 2:1,2 4:10,14
`4:15,19 5:9,12,20
`5:25 6:23 7:8
`patentability 7:4
`pearce 3:5 4:7,8,9
`4:22,24 5:3,7 7:19
`7:20 8:20,21 9:10
`9:11,21
`pending 5:11
`petition 1:13 6:5
`petitioner 4:18
`6:21 8:13 9:17
`petitioners 1:5 4:8
`6:10
`please 4:10 5:6 9:6
`pllc 3:15
`point 6:9 7:25 8:2
`position 6:17 8:23
`preliminary 4:19
`5:9,22
`proceeding 10:6
`proceedings 4:2,5
`9:23 10:8
`proofread 10:6
`propositions 7:7
`public 10:22
`q
`question 6:15
`questions 6:14,18
`9:9
`quite 8:15
`r
`really 5:18 6:8 8:2
`reasonably 6:4
`reasons 5:18
`record 6:7
`refer 4:14
`referenced 10:5
`
`region 1:24
`related 10:11
`relative 10:13
`relying 7:11
`reply 4:19 5:16,19
`6:11,16,22 7:9
`8:13,14,22 9:17
`reported 2:24
`reporter 4:21 5:1
`5:2 10:1,4
`requested 5:15
`8:13
`respondent's 7:5
`response 4:19 5:9
`5:22 6:20,23,24
`resulted 7:4
`review 1:13
`right 8:8
`ruling 5:11,13
`6:23,24 7:4,20 8:9
`s
`scheduled 7:15,16
`scheduling 7:21
`schlather 3:15
`seal 10:17
`second 6:9
`see 5:4 7:10 9:7
`short 5:15 8:10
`shorthand 10:3
`shortly 9:16
`shown 6:22
`side 7:23 8:4
`signature 10:20
`similar 6:12
`situation 6:2
`situations 5:23
`soft 1:7 3:13
`solutions 1:23
`2:25
`south 3:16
`
`standing 5:10,17
`6:11 7:11 8:4,5
`states 1:1 2:1
`status 7:12
`street 1:24 3:8
`submit 6:3,6
`substance 6:6
`substantive 6:14
`successful 7:3
`suite 1:24 3:16
`support 5:21
`sutcliffe 3:6
`t
`
`t 3:5
`taken 8:10 10:9,12
`talking 4:12
`talks 8:5
`tele 10:5
`telephone 3:10,18
`telephonic 2:4
`thank 4:9,16 8:17
`9:19,21,22
`think 5:16 6:16
`7:23 8:3,15
`three 5:17 8:13
`time 10:9
`today 8:14,19
`tower 3:15
`trademark 1:1 2:1
`transcript 5:5
`10:7,8
`transcription 10:7
`translated 10:6
`trial 1:2 2:2
`true 10:8
`two 5:18
`types 6:12
`u
`u.s. 1:14
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`IPR2019-00131
`PANASONIC EX. 1022, p. 13 of 13
`
`