In The Matter Of:
`
`Panasonic Corporation of North America
` v.
`Cellspin Soft, Inc.
`
`_________________________________
`
`Michael Foley VOL
`
`September 19, 2019
`
`_________________________________
`
` BH CDR Job # 1104910
` number of pages 110
`
`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 1
`
`
`
`Panasonic Corporation of North America
` v.
`Cellspin Soft, Inc.
`
`_________________________________
`
`Michael Foley VOL
`
`September 19, 2019
`
`_________________________________
`
` BH CDR Job # 1104910
` number of pages 110
`
`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 1
`
`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`___________________________________________________________
` PANASONIC CORPORATION OF NORTH )
`AMERICA, et al., )
` )
` Petitioners, )
` )
` vs. )No. IPR2019-00131
` )
` CELLSPIN SOFT, INC., )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
`___________________________________________________________
` Deposition Upon Oral Examination Of
` MICHAEL FOLEY
`___________________________________________________________
`
` 9 o'clock a.m.
` September 19, 2019
` 701 Fifth Avenue
` Seattle, Washington
`
`REPORTED BY: Yvonne A. Gillette, CCR No. 2129.
`
`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 2
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`
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`For the Petitioners:
`
` T. VANN PEARCE
` Orrick Herrington & Sutcliffe
` 1152 15th Street NW
` Columbia Center
` Washington, DC 20005
` 202-339-8796
` vpearce@orrick.com
`
` DAVID MEDINA
` Panasonic
`
` KUNIO DOHNO
` Panasonic
`
` TATSUHIKO IKEDA
` Panasonic
`
`For the Patent Owner:
`
` JOHN EDMONDS
` Edmonds & Schlather
` 1616 South Voss Road
` Suite 125
` Houston, Texas 77057
` 713-364-5291
` jedmonds@ip-lit.com
`
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`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
`888.272.0022 818.343.7040 Fax 818.343.7119 www.benhyatt.com
`
`Page 2
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 3
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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` E X A M I N A T I O N I N D E X
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`By Mr. Pearce 4 - 106
`By Mr. Edmonds 107 - 108
`
` E X H I B I T I N D E X
`
` MARKED
`
` 1 Article, File Transfer Protocol 21
` 2 Article, How Bluetooth and 802.11 Will 69
` Team up to Deliver High-Speed Wireless
` Connections
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`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
`888.272.0022 818.343.7040 Fax 818.343.7119 www.benhyatt.com
`
`Page 3
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 4
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`MICHAEL FOLEY, being duly sworn, testified
` upon oath as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. PEARCE:
`Q Good morning.
`A Good morning.
`Q You have been deposed before; is that right?
`A I have, yes.
`Q So I'll just go over a few ground rules,
`which may be a refresher for you. Okay?
`A Sounds good.
`Q I'll be asking questions. If you don't
`understand any of my questions, then please let me
`know. And if you don't do that, I'll assume you do
`understand the question. Is that fair?
`A I understand, yes.
`Q If you need to discuss a question regarding
`privilege with counsel, then you can certainly do
`that. Otherwise, if you need a break, you can ask for
`a break at any time. I would just ask, if I have a
`question pending, that you answer the question before
`you break. Is that okay?
`A That's fine.
`Q And the rules in these IPR proceedings may
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`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
`888.272.0022 818.343.7040 Fax 818.343.7119 www.benhyatt.com
`
`Page 4
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 5
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`be a little different than some other jurisdictions.
`During breaks in the deposition, you're not allowed to
`discuss the substance of testimony you have given or
`that you anticipate giving with anyone. Do you
`understand that?
`A I do.
`Q You understand that you're testifying under
`oath today, and that's the same oath you would be
`required to give if you were testifying in a court of
`law?
`A I do.
`Q Is there any reason why you cannot give
`complete and truthful testimony today?
`A None that I'm aware of.
`Q You are not on any kind of medication or any
`other impairments of any sort?
`A I'm not.
`Q Dr. Foley, you have been retained by
`Cellspin Soft, Incorporated to serve as an expert
`witness in this interparty proceeding; is that right?
`A That's correct.
`Q For ease of reference today, I'll refer to
`Cellspin Soft, Inc. as Cellspin. And I'll refer to
`the petitioners collectively as Panasonic. Is that
`fair?
`
`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
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`
`Page 5
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 6
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`A That's fine.
`Q You have, I understand, in front of you in a
`binder a copy of what's been identified as Exhibit
`2009 in the IPR proceeding, your declaration; is that
`right?
`A I'm not sure of the exact exhibit number.
`It is Exhibit 2009.
`Q Okay. And this is a declaration that you
`signed on July 22nd, 2019?
`A Yes, that's correct.
`Q Are you aware of any errors or inaccuracies
`in this declaration?
`A I am not. I should also point out the
`binder has a copy of the '698 Patent, if that's all
`right.
`Q And that is Exhibit 1003. Is that what it
`says on the bottom right?
`A That is, yes.
`Q Does the declaration you have in front of
`you, Exhibit 2009, accurately state all your opinions
`in this proceeding with respect to the issues it
`addresses?
`A Could you repeat that?
`Q Sure. Let me ask maybe a little bit
`differently. Your declaration includes opinions you
`
`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
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`
`Page 6
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 7
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`have expressed with respect to the issues in this IPR
`proceeding, right?
`A Yes. It expresses my opinions, yes.
`Q And does your declaration state all the
`bases for those opinions?
`A Yes, I believe so. At least the majority of
`them, yes.
`Q Let me ask it this way: Is there anything
`material that's missing from your declaration material
`to understanding your opinions in this case?
`A Well, I have referenced materials such as a
`Bluetooth specification and things like that that
`aren't all incorporated in here and that some of those
`background materials, you know, go into helping form
`my opinion.
`Q But there's nothing missing from the
`declaration that you would add? This is a complete
`statement of your opinions, understanding that it
`references documents that aren't incorporated entirely
`in the declaration. Is that fair to say?
`A Yes. It definitely references other
`documents that I used to help form my opinion. And
`this definitely hits the main issues and the opinions
`that I have formed. I wouldn't say it's a hundred
`percent all inclusive of everything, every opinion I
`
`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
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`
`Page 7
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 8
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`formed on this case, but it's definitely the
`substantive ones.
`Q Okay. Did anyone assist you in drafting
`this declaration?
`A I had some people review the material and
`give me feedback, so -- but the opinions, you know,
`were mine that I drafted and put in the declaration.
`Q And who were those people?
`A The Cellspin attorney, as well as Bobby from
`Cellspin is one of the authors of the patent.
`Q Anyone else?
`A I don't believe so.
`Q Your declaration responds to Dr. Strawn's
`declaration submitted on behalf of Panasonic; is that
`right?
`A Yes. I reviewed that declaration as well.
`Q Okay. And it identified points which you
`disagree with Dr. Strawn's analysis, correct?
`A It does identify a number of cases where I
`disagree, yes.
`Q Okay. And your opinion in this case is that
`the challenge claims of the '698 Patent are -- it's a
`double negative -- not unpatentable; is that right?
`A Could you repeat that? Double negatives
`throw me, I believe.
`
`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
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`
`Page 8
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 9
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`Q Sure. Your opinion is that the challenge
`claims of the '698 Patent are not unpatentable, right,
`in light of the prior art?
`A Perhaps we should say it the other way,
`where my opinion is that I believe the claims are
`patentable and hold.
`Q Okay. And any points that you thought were
`important to that conclusion on which you disagree
`with Dr. Strawn are discussed in your declaration,
`right?
`A The key points, yes.
`Q Okay. Did you consider any materials in
`preparing your declaration that are not referenced in
`the declaration?
`A That's a difficult question, because I'm
`not -- off the top of my head, I'm not a hundred
`percent sure of everything that's referenced in there,
`so I might have reviewed a document that wasn't
`germane to the point I was making, so I didn't
`reference it. And off the top of my head, it would be
`hard to articulate all of those.
`Q Okay. So sitting here today, are you aware
`of any documents that you referenced specifically that
`are not identified in the declaration?
`A Well, if I reference them, they're
`
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`Page 9
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 10
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`identified in the declaration.
`Q Are you aware, sitting here, of any
`documents not identified in the declaration that you
`considered in forming your opinions?
`A I'm not aware of any. But, again, off the
`top of my head, I don't recall every single document
`that's referenced in here. So there may be a case
`where that was true. But, again, if I don't reference
`it in here, it wasn't germane to the point I was
`making.
`Q Have you reviewed the response that Cellspin
`filed in the IPR proceeding, the document called
`patent owner's response?
`A Yes, I have.
`Q And you're aware that your declaration to
`that response are in many respects -- actually, let me
`strike that.
` You're aware that that response and your
`declaration, many of the paragraphs are verbatim or
`essentially verbatim between the two?
`A I definitely referenced some material from
`the response. My opinions definitely aren't verbatim
`from that. But as I said, some of the material was
`referenced from that, because I was making the same
`point that was referenced there.
`
`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
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`
`Page 10
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 11
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`Q Okay. So the response is something you
`considered, one of the materials you considered when
`drafting your declaration; is that correct?
`A I definitely reviewed that, yes.
`Q Okay. And did you meet with anyone to
`prepare for this deposition?
`A I did, yes.
`Q And besides Mr. Edmonds, did you meet with
`anyone? Was it just him, or were there other people?
`A In person, we were the only two.
`Q Okay. Who else was present not in person?
`A We made a couple of phone calls to Bobby
`again.
`Q And about how long did you spend preparing
`for the deposition today?
`A About ten hours.
`Q About how long did you spend drafting your
`declaration?
`A This declaration? About 50 hours.
`Q I'm going to hand you a document that has
`been marked as Exhibit 2010 in the IPR.
` (Exhibit No. 2010 referenced.)
`Q Dr. Foley, this is a copy of your resume or
`CV, whatever you want to call it.
`A Yes.
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 12
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`Q And this is up-to-date?
`A Yes. I believe it was submitted six to
`twelve months ago. I forget the exact timeframe, but
`nothing really has changed in that time.
`Q Okay. I want to go down on the first page
`where it says expert witness.
`A Yes.
`Q You list a number of companies. These are
`clients on whose behalf you have provided expert
`witness services; is that right?
`A That is correct, yes.
`Q And which of these were matters involving
`patents?
`A Nintendo was. Fujifilm was. Apple, each
`time I have represented them, they have. The Ryobi
`one has. Zepp Labs was. Eight Bit Studios was not.
`And Cellspin is.
`Q Okay. Have you served as an expert witness
`on any other patent matters not listed here?
`A No, but it may be a little confusing,
`because I have represented Apple in two different
`issues, so they technically could be listed twice.
`But since it's the same company, I only list them
`once.
`Q In these matters, were you -- was your
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`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
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`Page 12
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 13
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`client the patent owner or a party accused of
`infringement or both? What was the role of your
`client in these matters?
`A It's been different in each one. Would you
`like me to go through and list them?
`Q Sure.
`A Okay. Nintendo was not the patent owner.
`Fujifilm was the patent owner. The ones with Apple,
`each side had patents, so they were the owner and not
`the owner of other ones. Ryobi was not the patent
`owner. Zepp Labs was the patent owner. Cellspin is
`the patent owner.
`Q And did you submit an expert report in each
`of these matters or expert declaration?
`A Not in each of them, no.
`Q Could you let me know in which matters you
`did have a report or declaration?
`A The ones I did?
`Q Yes.
`A The Ryobi, the Zepp Labs, and the
`declaration in Cellspin.
`Q Okay. Were you deposed in Ryobi or Zepp
`Labs matters?
`A Ryobi, yes. Zepp Labs, yes.
`Q Okay. Did you testify at a hearing or trial
`
`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
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`Page 13
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 14
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`in either of those matters?
`A The Ryobi one, there was hearing and trial.
`Q Have you previously in the Ryobi or Zepp
`Labs matters -- strike that.
` In the Ryobi or Zepp Labs matters, did you
`offer an opinion on the validity or invalidity of
`patents?
`A Yes.
`Q And in the Ryobi matter, did you offer an
`invalidity opinion?
`A That is correct, yes.
`Q And in the Zepp Labs, a validity opinion?
`A That is correct.
`Q Did either of those matters involve
`Bluetooth?
`A Zepp Labs did, yes. Ryobi did not.
`Q Did either of those matters involve GUIs?
`When I say GUIs, I mean graphical user interface. Is
`that understood?
`A Yes, that is understood. In Ryobi, the case
`did, because it had a mobile phone app was part of it,
`and the user interfaced with that. Although the
`patent -- that wasn't part of the patent, but it was
`part of how the patent was used, if that makes any
`sense.
`
`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
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`
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 15
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` And Zepp Labs, similar thing. It had mobile
`applications with a user interface. And that
`application -- basically the case was whether that
`application, you know, used the technology in the
`patent.
`Q In either of those cases, Ryobi or Zepp
`Labs, do you know if there was any challenge to your
`testimony, the admissibility of it or otherwise?
`A Not that I'm aware of, no.
`Q You have in front of you, I understand, a
`copy of the '698 Patent in your binder, right, Exhibit
`1003?
`A '698. Exhibit 1003, yes, I do have a copy
`of that.
`Q Can you turn to column 9 on the patent
`starting at line 42?
`A Yes, I'm there.
`Q Okay. Do you see that it states here -- and
`I'm quoting, exemplar, the method and system disclosed
`herein may be implemented in technologies that are
`pervasive, flexible, and capable enough of
`accomplishing the desired tasks of a method and
`system. What do you understand "pervasive" to mean in
`this context?
`A Widely available and used.
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`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 16
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`Q Pervasive technologies would have been
`well-known to a person of ordinary skill in the art at
`the time, would you agree?
` MR. EDMONDS: Objection. Vague.
`A But I can answer? Okay. A pervasive
`technology would be well-known to -- I forget how you
`phrased it -- somebody -- did you say -- with
`reasonable in the art, a POSITA type person?
`Q Yes, a person of ordinary skill in the art
`at the time is what I said.
`A Okay. They should be aware of a pervasive
`technology.
`Q And you just used the term, POSITA. Is that
`shorthand for a person of ordinary skill in the art?
`A Yes.
`Q Okay. So I'll probably use that term as
`well today, just so you understand that's what I mean.
`A Okay. Very good.
`Q And you're familiar with the concept of a
`POSITA in patent law; is that right?
`A Yes, I am.
`Q What's your understanding of POSITA?
`A It's usually a, I guess, a hypothetical
`person that would understand the art and have a
`general background on it and would be able to
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`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 17
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`understand the materials that are in the patent, if
`we're talking about a patent. And like, in my report,
`and in most of them that I have dealt with, there's a
`definition given for what that person -- kind of the
`education requirement and typically, say, number of
`years that they have experience working within that
`field or with that technology.
` And they're usually -- I think the ordinary
`part comes from it's usually not, you know, something
`extreme. You know, it's typically not somebody that's
`worked in the field for 40 years or things along that.
`It's more, as the ordinary means, what you would find
`at many different companies.
`Q And the opinions that you have offered in
`this matter are from the perspective of a POSITA at
`the time of the alleged inventions in the '698 Patent;
`is that right?
`A That is correct.
`Q HTTP -- are you familiar with HTTP?
`A I am, yes.
`Q What is that? What's your understanding of
`HTTP?
`A Hypertext protocol. It's used -- it's one
`of the main languages of the web or the internet. And
`when you have a web browser, that typically uses HTTP
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`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 18
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`to speak with the server. And I'm using HTTP and
`HTTPS, the secure version, synonymously, because
`anymore, most sites have gone to the HTTPS version of
`it, the secure version.
` But it's a text language for the most part.
`It has simple commands where you can get information
`from the server, potentially put information on the
`server. And then it was so popular with browsers that
`now many APIs are built on top of basically the same
`technology. You may hear them referred to as rest or
`restful APIs. And that, as I said, basically uses the
`same underlying technology. But it doesn't have to be
`in a browser in that case.
`Q So you mentioned HTTP communicating with the
`web or internet. HTTP is a protocol that can be used
`for wireless communication in a public network; is
`that right?
`A I don't see anything that would exclude it
`from being used over, you know, any IP network.
`Q IP network, what do you mean by IP?
`A Internet protocol. Most networks are
`considered a stack, where you start at the physical
`layer, and then the network, the physical, MAC, media
`access control. And OSI is a seven-layer model that
`most people use. And just internet protocol or IP is
`
`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
`888.272.0022 818.343.7040 Fax 818.343.7119 www.benhyatt.com
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`Page 18
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 19
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`below HTTP.
`Q You're familiar with the term TCP/IP?
`A I am, yes.
`Q So the IP you mentioned there, is that the
`IP in TCP/IP?
`A It is, yes.
`Q What is the TCP part?
`A It's a layer above it, transmission control
`protocol. It's a connection based protocol that,
`again, runs on top of IP. And other protocols can run
`on top of IP as well.
`Q You said a layer above. Do you mean a layer
`above it in the OSI stack?
`A Yes.
`Q So HTTP is communicated over TCP/IP?
`A Traditionally, yes.
`Q And that's been true for some time, right?
`Do you know when that first began?
`A I'm sorry. It definitely asked for some
`time. Did you ask more than that?
`Q Sure. Do you have an understanding of when
`HTTP was first implemented?
`A Oh, boy. Off the top of my head, I don't
`know, you know, the exact date, but a broad swath
`would be in the '90s timeframe, but I would have to
`
`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
`888.272.0022 818.343.7040 Fax 818.343.7119 www.benhyatt.com
`
`Page 19
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 20
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`look it up. I don't recall the exact date.
`Q By the time of the '698 Patent's alleged
`invention, HTTP would have been a pervasive
`technology; is that right?
`A HTTP was, yeah, used quite a bit by the 2007
`timeframe.
`Q Are you familiar with FTP?
`A I am, yes.
`Q What's FTP?
`A File transfer program, or protocol. And
`typically the application that implements is called
`file transfer program. It's the protocol.
`Q So FTP is implemented using an application
`program of some sort?
`A It could be. I mean, it could be
`implemented in a browser, which, I guess there's a
`whole debate years ago whether the browser is a
`standalone app or part of the operating system.
`Q And FTP also uses TCP/IP; is that right?
`A It definitely does in many implementations.
`I'm not a hundred percent sure if it's required to,
`but that's common usage.
`Q And do you know about how long FTP has been
`able to use TCP/IP in common usage?
`A Again, I don't know the exact date, but I
`
`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
`888.272.0022 818.343.7040 Fax 818.343.7119 www.benhyatt.com
`
`Page 20
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 21
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`would -- I would think a similar timeframe in the '90s
`that I mentioned for HTTP. But I'd have to look it up
`to get the exact date, because I don't recall.
`Q In your declaration, you cited to some
`definitions from the website. Let me start over.
`A Okay.
`Q In your declaration, you cited to some
`definitions from a website called Techopedia, right?
`A That is correct.
`Q So you would agree that Techopedia is a good
`resource, reliable resource for understanding
`technical concepts?
` MR. EDMONDS: Objection. Vague.
`A Yes. It's a pretty good resource. I
`obviously haven't looked at all the definitions to see
`if I agree with them or not, but for the ones I was
`looking at, yeah, they were good.
`Q Let me just mark a document, which we'll
`mark as Foley Exhibit 1.
` (Exhibit No. 1 marked for identification.)
`Q Once you have a chance to review, Dr. Foley,
`let me know if you have seen this document before.
`A I have not seen this document before.
`Q So the document is titled at the top, What
`is File Transfer Protocol?
`
`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
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`Page 21
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 22
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` MR. EDMONDS: Did you provide us this in
`advance of the deposition? I don't think so.
` MR. PEARCE: No.
` MR. EDMONDS: We object to using it. You're
`supposed to provide them in advance if you're going to
`use them.
`Q At the top of the document, it's marked,
`What is File Transfer Protocol, parentheses, FTP,
`question mark.
` MR. EDMONDS: Are you disagreeing with my
`recitation of the rule, or are you just ignoring me?
` MR. PEARCE: You have stated your objection.
`It's on the record.
` MR. EDMONDS: Unless you have a basis to
`disagree with what I have just said, which I'll
`certainly entertain, you'll need it back, because the
`rule says you're supposed to provide documents up
`front before you ask him at the deposition. We're not
`going to be surprised here with something we weren't
`provided with.
` MR. PEARCE: What rule are you referring to?
` MR. EDMONDS: I don't know the rule number.
`I'll be happy to pull it up.
` MR. PEARCE: My understanding is that you
`are instructing the witness not to answer any
`
`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
`888.272.0022 818.343.7040 Fax 818.343.7119 www.benhyatt.com
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`Page 22
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 23
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`questions about this document; is that correct?
` MR. EDMONDS: Yeah. I have handed the
`document back. I mean, you can ask him questions, but
`I don't expect him to review the document or to --
`that you haven't shown him, that you haven't provided
`us before. If you want to ask questions about the
`subject matter, I suppose you can do that. But the
`rule has to do with surprising deponents at
`depositions with exhibits that weren't provided
`beforehand. So I object to him being shown or
`required to review the document, which is why I have
`handed it back.
` MR. PEARCE: So just to make the record
`clear, I have handed the witness a document marked as
`Foley Exhibit 1. Counsel has instructed the witness
`to hand the document back, which he has done, and
`that's what's taken place here. If you want to send
`me or give me a cite to the rule, I would appreciate
`that. We'll take a look at that. We can move on at
`this time. Obviously, I'm reserving all rights,
`because I do think I'm allowed to ask questions about
`the document.
` MR. EDMONDS: Okay.
`Q Dr. Foley, are you familiar with the term,
`RFC?
`
`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
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`Page 23
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 24
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`A Yes, I am.
`Q What is RFC?
`A Request for comment. They basically are
`internet standards if you will.
`Q And are you familiar with an RFC that deals
`with file transfer protocol?
`A I understand there is one.
`Q Do you know the date of the most recent RFC
`for FTP?
`A I do not, no.
`Q If I represented to you it was October 1985,
`does that sound correct to you? Do you have any
`reason to disagree with that?
`A That seems possible. I mean, that's not too
`different than what I said earlier, the '90s, so that
`definitely seems within the realm of possibility.
`Q Would you agree that as of the time of the
`alleged inventions in the 2007 patent that Bluetooth
`is another example of the technology that was
`pervasive?
`A In 2007?
`Q Yes.
`A It was definitely becoming pervasive at that
`time.
`Q We looked earlier at the '698 Patent, and it
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`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
`888.272.0022 818.343.7040 Fax 818.343.7119 www.benhyatt.com
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`Page 24
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 25
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`mentioned that the method and system disclosed herein
`may be implemented in technologies that are pervasive.
`The '698 Patent implements the disclosed method and
`system using Bluetooth in these examples, right?
`A It references Bluetooth as one way to do it,
`I guess.
`Q And do you understand that reference to
`pervasive technologies in the '698 Patent to include
`Bluetooth?
`A I can't say for certain if they meant
`Bluetooth in that -- in this sentence that we read
`earlier when they mentioned pervasive.
`Q Okay. If you look at the next sentence, it
`states, the method and systems disclosed herein is
`realized, but not limited to Bluetooth communication
`protocol. Do you see that?
`A I do, yes.
`Q In light of that sentence, would you agree
`that Bluetooth is an example of a technology that was
`pervasive at the time of the '698 Patent alleged
`inventions?
`A I guess it's -- Bluetooth was becoming
`pervasive at that time. I was working very hard with
`the Bluetooth SIG to make it that way. But in 2007, I
`don't know that I would say it was pervasive yet. It
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`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
`888.272.0022 818.343.7040 Fax 818.343.7119 www.benhyatt.com
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`Page 25
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 26
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`Michael Foley - 9/19/2019
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`was becoming there, but it wasn't like it is today.
`It wasn't in every car at the time like it is today.
`It wasn't in every phone like it is today. As I said,
`there was a large team of people trying to make it
`that way, but it was kind of at the inflection point
`in 2007.
` MR. EDMONDS: The rule I was thinking was 7
`CFR 42.53. There may be lower level implementations
`of it. But that's the rule that I had in mind, just
`for your information, since you asked.
` MR. PEARCE: 7 CFR, or 37?
` MR. EDMONDS: 37, yeah. 37 CFR.
`Q So, Dr. Foley, in your opinion, as of the
`time of the alleged inventions in the '698 Patent,
`Bluetooth was on its way to becoming pervasive. It
`may not have been pervasive yet. Is that a fair
`statement of what you just said?
`A Yes.
`Q So notwithstanding your opinion, would you
`agree that the '698 Patent here, when it mentions
`implementing technologies that are pervasive, it is
`including Bluetooth communication protocol as one such
`pervasive technology?
`A Just because it's listed here, I wouldn't
`say it's pervasive. Because the next sentence, it
`
`Ben Hyatt Certified Deposition Reporters
`888.272.0022 818.343.7040 Fax 818.343.7119 www.benhyatt.com
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`Page 26
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`Canon Exhibit 1041, Page 27
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`
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