JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` 3
`
` 4
` APPLE INC., IPR2018-01140
` 5 U.S. Patent 9,402,032
` Petitioner,
` 6 IPR2018-01146
` vs. U.S. Patent 9,568,712
` 7
` COREPHOTONICS LTD.,
` 8
` Patent Owner.
` 9 /
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
` Palo Alto, California
`14 Friday, February 15, 2019
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22 Reported by:
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`23 JANIS JENNINGS
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`24 CSR No. 3942, CLR, CCRR
`
`25 Job No. 447628
`
`1
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 1 of 203
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`
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` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` 3
`
` 4
` APPLE INC., IPR2018-01140
` 5 U.S. Patent 9,402,032
` Petitioner,
` 6 IPR2018-01146
` vs. U.S. Patent 9,568,712
` 7
` COREPHOTONICS LTD.,
` 8
` Patent Owner.
` 9 /
`
`10
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`11
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`12
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`13 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
` Palo Alto, California
`14 Friday, February 15, 2019
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22 Reported by:
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`23 JANIS JENNINGS
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`24 CSR No. 3942, CLR, CCRR
`
`25 Job No. 447628
`
`1
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 1 of 203
`
`
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` 3
`
` 4
` APPLE INC., IPR2018-01140
` 5 U.S. Patent 9,402,032
` Petitioner,
` 6 IPR2018-01146
` vs. U.S. Patent 9,568,712
` 7
` COREPHOTONICS LTD.,
` 8
` Patent Owner.
` 9 /
`
`10
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`11
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`12 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.,
`
`13 taken on behalf of the Patent Owner, at HAYNES AND
`
`14 BOONE, LLP, 525 University Avenue, Suite 400, Palo Alto,
`
`15 California, beginning at 9:10 a.m. on Friday, February
`
`16 15, 2019, before Janis Jennings, Certified Shorthand
`
`17 Reporter No. 3942, CLR, CCRR.
`
`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`25
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`2
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 2 of 203
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
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` 1 APPEARANCES:
`
` 2
`
` 3 ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
`
` 4 HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
` BY: PHILIP W. WOO, ESQ.
` 5 525 University Avenue, Suite 400
` Palo Alto, California 94301
` 6 650.687.8818
` philip.woo@haynesboone.com
` 7
` HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
` 8 BY: MICHAEL PARSONS, ESQ.
` JORDAN M. MAUCOTEL, ESQ.
` 9 2505 N. Plano Road, Suite 4000
` Richardson, Texas 95082
`10 972.739.8621
` michael.parsons@haynesboone.com
`11 jordan.maucatel@haynesboone.com
`
`12
`
`13 ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
`
`14 RUSS AUGUST & KABAT
` BY: NEIL A. RUBIN, ESQ.
`15 12424 Wilshire Boulevard, 12th Floor
` Los Angeles, California 90025
`16 310.826.7474
` nrubin@raklaw.com
`17
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`18
` ALSO PRESENT:
`19
` MICHAEL BARBER, Videographer
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 3 of 203
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 I N D E X
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` 2
`
` 3 WITNESS EXAMINATION
`
` 4 José Sasián, Ph.D.
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` 5
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` 6
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` 7
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` 8 BY MR. RUBIN 7
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` 9
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`10
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 4 of 203
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
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` 1 E X H I B I T S
`
` 2
`
` 3 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`
` 4 Exhibit 1 Declaration of José Sasián, 16
` Ph.D. for IPR2018-01140
` 5 9,402,032 patent
`
` 6 Exhibit 2 Declaration of José Sasián, 18
` Ph.D. for IPR2018-01146
` 7 9,58,712 patent
`
` 8 Exhibit 3 Curriculum Vitae José Sasián 36
`
` 9 Exhibit 4 U.S. Patent No. 9,402,032 63
`
`10 Exhibit 5 U.S. Patent No. 9,568,712 63
`
`11 Exhibit 6 U.S. Patent No. 9,128,267 70
`
`12 Exhibit 7 U.S. Patent No. 8,233,224 70
`
`13 Exhibit 8 Translated Japanese Patent 71
` Application No. 2011-250322
`14
` Exhibit 9 Paper "The Optics of Miniature 72
`15 Digital Camera Modules"
`
`16 Exhibit 10 U.S. Patent No. 3,388,956 72
`
`17 Exhibit 11 Excerpt page 257 "Microscope 86
` Objectives"
`18
` Exhibit 12 U.S. Patent No. 9,223,118 172
`19
` Exhibit 13 United States Patent and 172
`20 Trademark Office Communication
` concerning Application No.
`21 14/069,027
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`5
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 5 of 203
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 15, 2019;
`
` 2 9:10 A.M.
`
` 3
`
` 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. My name is
`
` 5 Michael Barber. I'm the videographer associated
`
` 6 with Barkley Court Reporters, located at
`
` 7 201 California Street, Suite 375, San Francisco,
`
` 8 California 94111. The date is February 15th, 2019.
`
` 9 The time is 9:11 a.m.
`
`10 This deposition is taking place at Haynes
`
`11 and Boone, 525 University Avenue, Palo Alto,
`
`12 California 94031 in the matter of Apple Inc. versus
`
`13 Corephotonics Limited in the United States Patent
`
`14 and Trademark Office before the Patent Trial and
`
`15 Appeal Board, case numbers IPR2018-01146 and
`
`16 IPR2018-01140.
`
`17 This is the videotaped deposition of
`
`18 José Sasián, Ph.D., being taken on behalf of
`
`19 Corephotonics Limited. Counsel, would you please
`
`20 identify yourselves for the record and state whom
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`21 you represent.
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`22 MR. RUBIN: Neil Rubin of Russ August &
`
`23 Kabat representing Corephotonics.
`
`24 MR. WOO: Phillip Woo of the law firm Haynes
`
`25 and Boone representing Apple Inc. and defending the
`
`6
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 6 of 203
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`
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 witness.
`
` 2 MR. MAUCOTEL: Jordan Maucotel, Haynes and
`
` 3 Boone, defending the witness.
`
` 4 MR. PARSONS: Mike Parsons with Haynes and
`
` 5 Boone, also in support of the witness for Apple.
`
` 6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.
`
` 7 Will the court reporter please swear in the
`
` 8 witness.
`
` 9
`
`10 JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.,
`
`11 The witness herein, was sworn and
`
`12 testified as follows:
`
`13
`
`14 EXAMINATION
`
`15 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`16 Q. Good morning, Dr. Sasián.
`
`17 A. Good morning. How are you?
`
`18 Q. I'm good.
`
`19 How are you?
`
`20 A. Very well. Thank you.
`
`21 Q. Did I say your name right?
`
`22 A. "Sasián," yes.
`
`23 Q. Okay. Thank you.
`
`24 Have you been deposed before?
`
`25 A. Yes.
`
`7
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 7 of 203
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`
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 Q. How many times?
`
` 2 A. About 10.
`
` 3 Q. In what cases?
`
` 4 A. I think the most recent one was around 2015,
`
` 5 and it was a case, if I remember well, Samsung
`
` 6 versus Largan.
`
` 7 Q. Was that a patent case?
`
` 8 A. Yes.
`
` 9 Q. Were all of those 10 depositions taken of
`
`10 you as an expert witness?
`
`11 A. Yes.
`
`12 Q. And were all of those cases patent cases?
`
`13 A. Probably two, no. One was a trade secret
`
`14 case, and the other one may not have been a patent
`
`15 case.
`
`16 Q. Who were the parties to the trade secret
`
`17 case?
`
`18 A. I don't distinctly recall the names.
`
`19 Q. You don't remember either of the names?
`
`20 A. No, I cannot remember right now.
`
`21 Q. In the Samsung versus Largan case, which
`
`22 party were you appearing on behalf of?
`
`23 A. On the part of the defendant.
`
`24 Q. Largan?
`
`25 A. No. Samsung.
`
`8
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 8 of 203
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`
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
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` 1 Q. Okay. What other companies have you worked
`
` 2 for as an expert witness?
`
` 3 A. For Nikon. I -- I cannot recall exactly the
`
` 4 names right now. I will have to review my -- my
`
` 5 list of cases.
`
` 6 Q. Okay. So aside from Samsung and Nikon, you
`
` 7 can't remember any of the other companies that
`
` 8 you've worked as a witness for?
`
` 9 A. Well, I think I remember having worked for a
`
`10 company in -- another company in Korea, but I don't
`
`11 recall the name right now. I -- I remember working
`
`12 for a company regarding illumination devices, but I
`
`13 don't recall the -- the exact names right now.
`
`14 Q. Have you -- withdrawn.
`
`15 Aside from the IPRs concerning
`
`16 Corephotonics' patents, have you ever worked as a
`
`17 expert witness or a consultant for Apple?
`
`18 A. I haven't worked, that I can recall, for
`
`19 Apple as an expert or as a consultant.
`
`20 Q. Okay. Have you ever been in a case as an
`
`21 expert or as a consultant where Apple was a party on
`
`22 the other side?
`
`23 A. Not that I recall. Yeah. I should clarify
`
`24 that -- that my statement is that prior to this case
`
`25 I haven't worked for Apple as -- as an expert or as
`
`9
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 9 of 203
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`
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
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` 1 a consultant.
`
` 2 Q. I'm sorry. How was that different than the
`
` 3 answer that you gave before? What is it you're
`
` 4 clarifying?
`
` 5 A. Well, what happened is that I'm not sure if
`
` 6 I understood the question right.
`
` 7 Q. Okay. What was it that you weren't sure
`
` 8 about?
`
` 9 A. Whether the question referred to the past or
`
`10 the present.
`
`11 Q. I see. I see.
`
`12 So you're -- you weren't clear on whether my
`
`13 question included other cases involving
`
`14 Corephotonics and Apple; is that right?
`
`15 A. No. No.
`
`16 Q. Okay. Is there another case that you're
`
`17 presently working on for Apple as an expert or a
`
`18 consultant?
`
`19 A. Oh, now that you mentioned it, I recall that
`
`20 there was another case that I work on behalf of
`
`21 Apple, but my understanding is that the case was
`
`22 dismissed.
`
`23 Q. What case was that?
`
`24 A. I don't recall the case number or -- or --
`
`25 or the -- yeah, I don't recall the case number.
`
`10
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 10 of 203
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`
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
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` 1 Q. To the best of your recollection, when was
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` 2 that?
`
` 3 A. A few months ago.
`
` 4 Q. Was that -- what law firm was representing
`
` 5 Apple in that case?
`
` 6 A. I'm not sure if -- if -- if I'm entitled to
`
` 7 disclose that.
`
` 8 Q. Okay. Was that -- well, let me ask a
`
` 9 different question.
`
`10 Aside from of the cases -- withdrawn.
`
`11 Aside from the present cases between Apple
`
`12 and Corephotonics, have you worked on any other case
`
`13 as an expert witness or a consultant with the law
`
`14 firm of Haynes and Boone?
`
`15 A. No.
`
`16 Q. Have you worked on any other case as an
`
`17 expert witness or consultant with any of the
`
`18 attorneys from Haynes and Boone that are working on
`
`19 this case?
`
`20 A. No. No, I don't think so.
`
`21 Q. How many IPRs have you worked on between
`
`22 Apple and Corephotonics?
`
`23 A. Between Apple and Corephotonics? I believe
`
`24 four.
`
`25 Q. So there are two IPRs that we're here to
`
`11
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 11 of 203
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`
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 talk about today, and we'll get to that later.
`
` 2 We'll get to the details of that later. And then
`
` 3 there are two other IPRs that you worked on other
`
` 4 than the ones we are talking about today; correct?
`
` 5 A. Yes.
`
` 6 Q. How many total hours have you worked across
`
` 7 those four IPRs through today?
`
` 8 A. I don't have a -- a calendar right now with
`
` 9 me.
`
`10 Q. Have you billed for the time that you worked
`
`11 on these IPRs?
`
`12 A. Yes.
`
`13 Q. Did you submit separate bills for the
`
`14 different IPRs, or did you combine your work on the
`
`15 IPRs into combined bills?
`
`16 A. If I remember well, it was a combined bill,
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`17 different combined bills.
`
`18 Q. To the best of your recollection or ability
`
`19 to estimate, how many hours have you billed for?
`
`20 MR. WOO: Objection. Form.
`
`21 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`22 Q. And, to be clear, I'm talking about in the
`
`23 four IPRs --
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`24 A. In the four IPRs.
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`25 Q. -- concerning -- between Apple and
`
`12
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 12 of 203
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`
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
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` 1 Corephotonics.
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` 2 A. I really don't know the -- the -- the
`
` 3 number, because I -- I don't recall how many hours I
`
` 4 have worked right now.
`
` 5 Q. Was it more or less than 50 hours?
`
` 6 MR. WOO: Objection. Form.
`
` 7 THE WITNESS: Perhaps 50; around 50 or more.
`
` 8 I don't recall right now.
`
` 9 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`10 Q. Could it be less than 50?
`
`11 A. Maybe not.
`
`12 Q. Could it be more than 100?
`
`13 A. I -- maybe not.
`
`14 Q. What fraction of the hours that you've spent
`
`15 working on these four IPRs did you spend using the
`
`16 Zemax software?
`
`17 MR. WOO: Objection. Form.
`
`18 THE WITNESS: So the question is
`
`19 approximately how many hours I used Zemax in doing
`
`20 work for these proceedings?
`
`21 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`22 Q. That's right.
`
`23 A. Probably several hours.
`
`24 Q. Several hours?
`
`25 A. Several, yes.
`
`13
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 13 of 203
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`
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
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` 1 Q. Would you estimate it -- it was more than
`
` 2 ten hours?
`
` 3 A. No. I would say maybe up around ten -- ten
`
` 4 hours.
`
` 5 Q. When were you hired to work on these IPRs?
`
` 6 A. I think around about one year ago.
`
` 7 Q. Do you think it was in February of 2018?
`
` 8 A. Yeah, it may have been around February of
`
` 9 2018.
`
`10 Q. Do you know if when you were hired to work
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`11 on these IPRs -- withdrawn.
`
`12 The ten depositions approximately that
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`13 you've done before today, how many of those cases
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`14 involved cameras? Withdrawn.
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`15 The ten depositions that you have taken
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`16 before today approximately, of those, how many
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`17 involved lenses?
`
`18 A. It might have been three, four. Yeah.
`
`19 Maybe three, four, five, yes, or six.
`
`20 Q. So for the ones that didn't involve lenses,
`
`21 what areas of technology did those cases involve?
`
`22 A. Well, one was about the trade secret case,
`
`23 and that wasn't about, per se, lenses. Another one
`
`24 was about gemstones. That's what I can recall right
`
`25 now.
`
`14
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 14 of 203
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`
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
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` 1 Q. What was the trade secret case about?
`
` 2 A. The trade secret case, I cannot talk about
`
` 3 what I'm not supposed to talk about.
`
` 4 Q. Well, I understand the specific details of
`
` 5 the trade secrets may be -- may not be public, but
`
` 6 the -- what type of products did that case involve?
`
` 7 A. It was related to optics products not
`
` 8 related to -- to the current case.
`
` 9 Q. What type of optics products?
`
`10 A. Maybe prisms, if I remember now. I think if
`
`11 I -- it had to do with -- with parallel place of
`
`12 glass and maybe prisms. I would have to review
`
`13 to -- to -- to be accurate.
`
`14 MR. RUBIN: So let's start the numbering of
`
`15 the exhibits from Sasián No. 1.
`
`16 DEPOSITION REPORTER: They are not
`
`17 premarked?
`
`18 MR. RUBIN: No.
`
`19 DEPOSITION REPORTER: Can we go off the
`
`20 record for a moment.
`
`21 MR. RUBIN: Sure.
`
`22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record.
`
`23 The time is 9:27 a.m.
`
`24 (Off the record.)
`
`25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record. The
`
`15
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 15 of 203
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`
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
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` 1 time is 9:30 a.m.
`
` 2 (Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)
`
` 3 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
` 4 Q. All right. So in front of you, Dr. Sasián,
`
` 5 is a -- an exhibit that's been marked as
`
` 6 Exhibit No. 1 for the deposition and titled
`
` 7 "Declaration of José Sasián, Ph.D. under 37 C.F.R.
`
` 8 Section 1.68" and marked on the top of each page as
`
` 9 being in the "Inter Partes Review" of the '032
`
`10 patent. Do you see that?
`
`11 A. Yes.
`
`12 Q. I will represent to you that this was
`
`13 submitted as Exhibit 1003 in the IPR concerning the
`
`14 '032 patent.
`
`15 Do you recognize this as your declaration
`
`16 from that IPR?
`
`17 A. Yeah. Yeah, I believe so.
`
`18 Q. All right. To your knowledge, is this
`
`19 declaration accurate?
`
`20 MR. WOO: Objection. Form.
`
`21 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question,
`
`22 please.
`
`23 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`24 Q. To your knowledge, is your declaration,
`
`25 Exhibit No. 1, accurate?
`
`16
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 16 of 203
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`
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
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` 1 MR. WOO: Objection. Form.
`
` 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, at the moment I signed
`
` 3 it, I -- I -- I believe it -- it was correct.
`
` 4 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
` 5 Q. And now that some time has passed since you
`
` 6 signed it -- you signed it back in May of 2018 --
`
` 7 have you become aware of any errors in the
`
` 8 declaration?
`
` 9 A. No, I am not aware currently of any error.
`
`10 Q. Is there anything that with the benefit of a
`
`11 few months' time since you had to submit this you
`
`12 wished you were allowed to add or change?
`
`13 A. Not that I can think right now, no.
`
`14 Q. And does this declaration, Exhibit No. 1,
`
`15 contain your complete opinions regarding the IPR
`
`16 challenging the '032 patent?
`
`17 MR. WOO: Objection. Form.
`
`18 THE WITNESS: My declaration contains the
`
`19 opinions on the case that I have at the moment I
`
`20 signed it.
`
`21 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`22 Q. And just for the -- to make the record
`
`23 clear, Exhibit No. 1 is -- I will represent to you,
`
`24 is the declaration submitted in Case
`
`25 No. IPR2018-01140.
`
`17
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`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 17 of 203
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`
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
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` 1 MR. RUBIN: Let's mark this as the next
`
` 2 exhibit.
`
` 3 (Exhibit 2 marked for identification.)
`
` 4 DEPOSITION REPORTER: Exhibit 2.
`
` 5 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
` 6 Q. So in front of you marked as Exhibit 2 is a
`
` 7 document entitled "Declaration of José Sasián, Ph.D.
`
` 8 under 37 C.F.R. Section 1.68." I will represent to
`
` 9 you that this was submitted as Apple Exhibit 1003 in
`
`10 Case No. IPR2018-01146.
`
`11 You -- am I -- is it correct that you --
`
`12 withdrawn.
`
`13 Is it correct that you submitted two
`
`14 different declarations relating to the '712 patent?
`
`15 MR. WOO: Objection. Form.
`
`16 THE WITNESS: Yes. As I recall, yes.
`
`17 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`18 Q. And this is one of the declarations that you
`
`19 submitted regarding the '712 patent; is that right?
`
`20 A. Yes.
`
`21 Q. And so you recognize Exhibit 2 as a
`
`22 declaration that you prepared and signed?
`
`23 A. Yeah. It appears to be my declaration.
`
`24 Q. To your knowledge sitting here today, is
`
`25 this declaration accurate?
`
`18
`
`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 18 of 203
`
`
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 MR. WOO: Objection. Form.
`
` 2 THE WITNESS: At this moment I don't have
`
` 3 any reason to believe that is not accurate.
`
` 4 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
` 5 Q. So there's no errors, that you are aware of,
`
` 6 in the declaration?
`
` 7 A. I'm not aware at this moment of any error.
`
` 8 Q. And is there anything in this declaration
`
` 9 concerning the '712 patent that you wish you were
`
`10 allowed to add or change?
`
`11 A. Let me just get back to your previous
`
`12 question for a moment. There might be typos,
`
`13 maybe -- yeah, typos or -- or maybe clerical errors
`
`14 because this -- because errors happen in
`
`15 declarations, so -- but I'm not aware of any at this
`
`16 moment.
`
`17 Q. Okay. Yeah. I'm not asking you to
`
`18 guarantee that in 122 pages there aren't any typos.
`
`19 But sitting here today, at least right now, you
`
`20 can't think of any that you know of?
`
`21 A. That's correct.
`
`22 Q. Before these cases had you ever worked as an
`
`23 expert witness or a consultant in a case before the
`
`24 Patent Trial and Appeal Board?
`
`25 A. Yes. I mean -- in an IPR?
`
`19
`
`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 19 of 203
`
`
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 Q. Fair enough. So the most common type of
`
` 2 case before the Patent Trial and Appeal Board is an
`
` 3 IPR, or inter partes review. There are other types
`
` 4 of proceedings. There is something called a
`
` 5 "covered business method review," and there is
`
` 6 something called a "post-grant review." I don't
`
` 7 know if you've heard of those, but let's call all of
`
` 8 those proceedings before the Patent Trial and Appeal
`
` 9 Board.
`
`10 Are all of the other proceedings before the
`
`11 Patent Trial and Appeal Board that you've worked on
`
`12 IPRs?
`
`13 A. Many of them were IPRs.
`
`14 Q. Do you know if there were any that were not
`
`15 IPRs?
`
`16 A. I believe the trade secret case and the
`
`17 diamond case were not -- were not IPRs.
`
`18 Q. I see. I see.
`
`19 A. And there is another case that I think it
`
`20 was in the federal circuit court that wasn't an IPR.
`
`21 Q. I see. So of the 10 cases where you've been
`
`22 deposed, were most of those IPR cases?
`
`23 A. Yes.
`
`24 Q. So from your work on IPRs, are you familiar
`
`25 with the fact that when an expert submits a
`
`20
`
`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 20 of 203
`
`
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 declaration on behalf of the petitioner, the party
`
` 2 challenging the patent, that declaration is
`
` 3 submitted together with something called a
`
` 4 "petition"?
`
` 5 A. Yes.
`
` 6 Q. Have you seen the petitions that Apple
`
` 7 submitted in these IPRs?
`
` 8 A. I might. I don't recall distinctly.
`
` 9 Q. Have you seen those petitions within the
`
`10 last week?
`
`11 A. I don't recall if I have or I have not.
`
`12 Q. How long did you work on preparing these
`
`13 declarations between when you first started working
`
`14 on them and when they were submitted?
`
`15 A. What do you mean by "how long"?
`
`16 Q. Well, so these were submitted in May of
`
`17 2018. Okay. Withdrawn.
`
`18 These declarations were signed May 22nd and
`
`19 May 23rd of 2018. How long before those dates did
`
`20 you first begin working on the declarations?
`
`21 MR. WOO: Objection. Form.
`
`22 THE WITNESS: I -- if I remember correctly,
`
`23 I started working on the case around February. And
`
`24 from February to May, I -- I gather -- I read and
`
`25 gathered some materials to -- to work on the
`
`21
`
`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 21 of 203
`
`
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 declarations eventually.
`
` 2 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
` 3 Q. Aside from prior art references that you
`
` 4 expressly discuss in these declarations and the
`
` 5 other two declarations you submitted in the other
`
` 6 Apple Corephotonics IPRs, have you done any analysis
`
` 7 of any other prior art with respect to the '032 or
`
` 8 '712 patents?
`
` 9 A. Yes.
`
`10 Q. What -- what prior art is that?
`
`11 A. Excuse me?
`
`12 Q. What prior art is that?
`
`13 A. Let me give you a little bit of a
`
`14 background. I -- I am familiar with the technology
`
`15 and have a collection of -- I don't know -- 100,
`
`16 200, 300 patents regarding cell phone lenses. And I
`
`17 will scan through them, and some of them I will do a
`
`18 little bit of analysis or not. But at the end the
`
`19 reference I use for my declarations, I -- I am
`
`20 disclosing them in my declarations.
`
`21 Q. So how many -- how many prior art
`
`22 references -- withdrawn.
`
`23 How many lens-related patents would you
`
`24 estimate you looked at as part of your work on the
`
`25 Apple/Corephotonics IPRs?
`
`22
`
`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 22 of 203
`
`
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 A. I understand looking at a patent as opening
`
` 2 a patent and seeing if a lens will be similar. It
`
` 3 may have been 100 or 200.
`
` 4 Q. And these 1- or 200 -- withdrawn.
`
` 5 These 100 or 200 lens-related patents that
`
` 6 you looked at, did I understand you as saying that
`
` 7 these were all patents that you had already
`
` 8 assembled prior to your work on this case?
`
` 9 MR. WOO: Objection. Form.
`
`10 THE WITNESS: Some -- some patents that I
`
`11 have prior to this case and other -- and other
`
`12 patents that I found in doing work for this case.
`
`13 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`14 Q. How had you -- withdrawn.
`
`15 For what purpose had you obtained the
`
`16 patents that you already had that you analyzed for
`
`17 the purpose of this case?
`
`18 MR. WOO: Objection. Privileged or
`
`19 potentially calls for privileged information. I
`
`20 caution the witness not to divulge any substance if
`
`21 this relates to communication with attorneys for
`
`22 matters, legal proceedings.
`
`23 THE WITNESS: One reason is that I teach my
`
`24 students about this technology or I have some
`
`25 students doing for their reports or thesis search
`
`23
`
`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 23 of 203
`
`
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 on -- on -- doing research on or dedicating their
`
` 2 thesis on subjects related to cell phone lenses.
`
` 3 And so they -- one example is one student found --
`
` 4 dedi- -- dedicated his report, master's thesis, to
`
` 5 cell phone lenses and made a collection of patents
`
` 6 about cell phone lenses, and -- and that's the
`
` 7 reason I'm aware of these patents.
`
` 8 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
` 9 Q. Okay. So I believe there are at least two
`
`10 students, two master's degree students' reports that
`
`11 you list in your declarations that involved
`
`12 researching lens patents?
`
`13 A. Yes. Let me clarify. Not in my
`
`14 declaration, but in my CV.
`
`15 Q. Okay. Well, if you could turn in Exhibit 1
`
`16 to page -- so each page of your declaration's --
`
`17 actually has two sets of page numbers on it.
`
`18 A. Yes.
`
`19 Q. For -- I guess, unless I say otherwise, I'll
`
`20 refer to the bottom set of page numbers, but if
`
`21 you're ever uncertain about what I'm referring to,
`
`22 feel free to ask me to clarify.
`
`23 So if you could turn to page 7 of 85. Are
`
`24 you there?
`
`25 A. Yes.
`
`24
`
`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 24 of 203
`
`
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 Q. And this has --
`
` 2 A. Okay.
`
` 3 Q. So page 7 of 85 lists with bullet points
`
` 4 certain student reports that you've directed?
`
` 5 A. Yes.
`
` 6 Q. And so the fifth and the sixth reports in
`
` 7 that list both refer to camera lens patent research;
`
` 8 is that right?
`
` 9 A. Yes.
`
`10 Q. All right.
`
`11 A. Yes.
`
`12 Q. Was it one of these reports that you were --
`
`13 A. Yes.
`
`14 Q. -- referring to earlier?
`
`15 Which one?
`
`16 A. To both.
`
`17 Q. Okay. So did you look at the patents that
`
`18 are cited in these two student reports to see if any
`
`19 of those were -- would be useful for an anticipation
`
`20 or obviousness opinion concerning the '032 and '712
`
`21 patents?
`
`22 A. Yes.
`
`23 MR. WOO: Objection. Form.
`
`24 THE WITNESS: In one case I looked at
`
`25 this -- at those patents.
`
`25
`
`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 25 of 203
`
`
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
` 2 Q. Which case was that?
`
` 3 A. I believe on the -- on the one entitled
`
` 4 "Patent Review Miniature Camera Lenses," though I
`
` 5 need to clarify that I look at the -- the actual
`
` 6 files, at the actual collection of patents.
`
` 7 Q. I see. And am I correct that you did not
`
` 8 end up actually using any of the patents in that
`
` 9 2007 master student report in your declarations?
`
`10 MR. WOO: Objection. Form.
`
`11 THE WITNESS: Let me try to be accurate. I
`
`12 may not have used any of the patents on the
`
`13 collection of patents.
`
`14 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`15 Q. I see. So the -- the patents that you cite
`
`16 in your declarations were patents that you learned
`
`17 about from some source other than your collection of
`
`18 lens-related patents?
`
`19 MR. WOO: Objection. Form. Also objection.
`
`20 Potentially calls for privileged information.
`
`21 I caution the witness not to divulge any
`
`22 communication with attorneys.
`
`23 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`24 Q. And, just to be clear, at least the question
`
`25 that I asked you was just whether -- whether -- I
`
`26
`
`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 26 of 203
`
`
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 wasn't asking what other source you got the patents
`
` 2 that you discuss in your declaration from, but just
`
` 3 whether it was some source other than your
`
` 4 collection of patents.
`
` 5 MR. WOO: Objection. Form.
`
` 6 THE WITNESS: Could you please repeat the
`
` 7 question so that I have it clear, please.
`
` 8 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
` 9 Q. Okay. So your declarations, Exhibit 1 and
`
`10 Exhibit 2, refer to certain patents other than the
`
`11 Corephotonics patents?
`
`12 A. Yes.
`
`13 Q. And I understand from your testimony today
`
`14 that in working on these declarations you looked at
`
`15 a collection of 100 or 200, approximately, patents
`
`16 that you assembled prior to your work on this case;
`
`17 is that right?
`
`18 A. I want to be accurate. I have different
`
`19 sources of patents for mobile phones, and I have
`
`20 different folders in which these patents sit. One
`
`21 folder, for example, may have patents that I search
`
`22 working on this case through the free online patents
`
`23 website. So you just type there a word related to
`
`24 the patent, such as "pickup lens" --
`
`25 (Clarification requested by Reporter.)
`
`27
`
`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`Exhibit 2011 Page 27 of 203
`
`
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 1 THE WITNESS: -- "pickup lens." And you may
`
` 2 have a number of entries, and some of these entries
`
` 3 may relate to the patent, and I may have saved this
`
` 4 particular patent. So I have a collection of
`
` 5 patent
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