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`Paper No. 31
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`Trials@uspto.gov
`571-272-7822
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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`__________
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`__________
`
`APPLE INC.,
`Petitioner
`
`v.
`
`COREPHOTONICS, LTD.,
`Patent Owner.
`
`__________
`
`Case IPR2019-00030
`Patent 9,857,568 B2
`
`__________
`
`Record of Oral Hearing
`Held: November 12, 2019
`__________
`
`Before MARCS. HOFF, BRYAN MOORE, and
`MONICA S. ULLAGADDI, Administrative Patent Judges.
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`Case IPR2019-00030
`Patent 9,857,568 B2
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
`
`
`MICHAEL S. PARSONS, ESQ
`Haynes and Boone, LLP
`2505 N. Plano Road
`Suite 4000
`Richardson, Texas 75082-4101
`972-739-8621
`michael.parsons@haynesboone.com
`
`
`
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
`
`
`NEIL A. RUBIN, ESQ.
`Russ August & Kabat
`12424 Wilshire Boulevard
`12th Floor
`Los Angeles, California 90025
`310-826-7474
`nrubin@raklaw.com
`
`
`
`The above-entitled matter came on for hearing on Tuesday, November
`
`12, 2019, commencing at 10:08 a.m. at the U.S. Patent and Trademark
`Office, 600 Dulany Street, Alexandria, Virginia.
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`P-R-O-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S
`
`(10:08 a.m.)
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Good morning. Welcome to the Patent
`Trial and Appeal Board. We are here today for oral arguments in inter
`partes review matter Number 2019-00030, a case in which Apple is a
`Petitioner and Corephotonics is the Patent Owner.
`Your panel for today includes myself, Judge Moore, and Judge Hoff.
`I would like to start by getting the appearances of counsel. Who do we
`have on behalf of Petitioner?
`MR. PARSONS: Your Honor, my name is Michael Parsons on
`behalf of Petitioner, Apple. With me is my colleague, Jordan Maucotel,
`and behind me is our colleague from Apple, Mr. Aaron Wong (phonetic).
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Thank you. And who do we have on
`behalf of Patent Owner?
`MR. RUBIN: Good morning, Your Honor. Neil Rubin of Russ
`August & Kabat on behalf of the Patent Owner, Corephotonics.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Thank you. Thank you all for joining us.
`I've got a few administrative details I'd like to go over, and then we can
`begin. Each party will have 60 minutes to argue their case. We're going to
`hear first from Petitioner.
`Petitioner, you will present your arguments in chief. Patent Owner,
`you will then be permitted time to present your arguments. And we would
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`also like to mention that we are going to make the transcript from the oral
`arguments in inter partes review matter Numbers 2018-01133, 2018-01140,
`and 2018-01146 of record in the present proceeding.
`Irrespective of that, you're welcome to make any arguments you
`wish today. These 60 minutes are yours, and you can use them how you
`wish. So let's begin with Petitioner. Would you like to reserve any
`rebuttal time?
`MR. PARSONS: Yes, Your Honor. I would like 20 minutes for
`rebuttal.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Okay, when you're ready you may begin.
`MR. PARSONS: Thank you. I have got copies of our
`demonstratives if you would like them.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Yes, please.
`MR. PARSONS: Okay, thank you. Good morning, Your Honors.
`Again, I'm Michael Parsons, lead counsel for Petitioner, Apple. In our
`discussion today there are four primary issues that we would like to discuss
`with you today.
`The first one that we'll jump right into is the proper construction of
`TTL. And we believe, and we still maintain throughout the proceedings
`that the proper construction of TTL, as you can see on Slide 4, is the length
`on an optical axis between the object site surface of the first lens element
`and the image plane.
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`We believe that this is the proper construction in light of both the
`specification and the claims. And I know that there are some various
`constructions going about right now.
`We have briefed it continually in this way because of the record in
`this case. The Patent Owner is still maintaining that their construction is to
`an electronic sensor. But to the extent that we would like to discuss the
`other constructions that have been proposed, we're more than happy to
`address those today.
`But as to our specific construction and the reason that we believe that
`this is the broadest reasonable construction in light of the specification is
`because if you turn to Slide 5, the specification itself, in the first paragraph
`of the summary section, it describes embodiments disclosed herein that refer
`to an optical lens assembly.
`So this is what the claim -- this is what Claim 1 is directed to. And
`you can see that in Slide 4 where we've provided a copy of Claim 1. The
`claims are directed to a lens assembly. And according to the specification,
`that lens assembly just includes five lens elements.
`Then in the next paragraph in the summary section it describes an
`optical lens system that incorporates a number of other optional components,
`including the lens assembly from the prior paragraph as well as elements
`including a stop which is the aperture opening, a glass window as well as a
`sensor that can be placed at the image plane for image formation.
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`Now Patent Owner has relied in their papers on what they call an
`expressed definition. But given the briefing that's occurred in the other
`cases it seems as though that Patent Owner is no longer advocating for a
`construction that is limited to just an electronic sensor but is allowing for a
`broader construction that still incorporates a sensor but that sensor can be
`placed at the image plane.
`Now if we look at the embodiments in Slide 6 that we've provided,
`in Slide 6 we show the embodiment in 2A of the '568 patent as well as the
`embodiment in 3A. Both of these embodiments are specifically described
`as optical lens systems.
`And even here it shows the optional nature of the sensor element as
`well as the cover glass because it shows that image plane 214 is placed in the
`embodiment and that's what's used for image formation of an object. The
`same with the third embodiment in 3A. That again shows an embodiment
`where 314 is an image plane that is where image formation occurs.
`Now the only embodiment in the '568 patent, as we've consistently
`argued, is image plane 114, as you can see on Slide 7. Now at Slide 7 for
`the embodiment in Figure 1 it shows an image plane 114 for image
`formation of an object and then an image sensor is disposed at that location
`for image formation.
`So our construction that's drawing TTL to the image plane is what
`the specification actually supports. It does not support the importation of a
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`sensor into the claim limitation especially because there is no clear
`instruction that's throughout the specification where a sensor is a required
`and necessary element of the claim.
`And so our argument and our position is that it is improper to import
`a sensor limitation in any way, shape, or form. Now --
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Counsel, how do you reconcile that
`position with the extrinsic evidence that appears to show a sensor as part of
`the definition for TTL?
`MR. PARSONS: Well first off, we believe that the intrinsic
`evidence alone is sufficient to resolve this issue to the point where extrinsic
`evidence doesn't need to be relied on. Second, the image plane is
`consistently taught throughout the specification and the prior art as the
`location where image formation occurs.
`And that's where a POSITA would place a sensor in order to capture
`that image formation. But all that needs to be defined in terms of the claims
`in order to resolve the case is that TTL is defined to the place where image
`formation occurs and that's consistently described in the specification as
`being the image plane.
`That's where a POSITA would place a sensor in order to capture an
`image. But it is not an express required element of a lens assembly, and
`that's what the intrinsic evidence consistently shows. So to the extent
`that there's extrinsic evidence that might show something different, it
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`directly contradicts the intrinsic evidence that's provided in the express claim
`language and in the description of each of the embodiments. So to the
`extent that extrinsic evidence is relied on, all that needs to be relied on is
`where the sensor is placed not the fact that a sensor is actually placed at that
`location.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Given that there is an image plane
`disclosed in the patent, wouldn't it necessarily require some sort of sensor,
`film or digital, for there to be an image plane?
`MR. PARSONS: No. The image plane is merely the place where
`the image formation occurs according to the design of the lens assembly.
`Now I don't know why they drafted the claims this way. I imagine it has
`something to do with capturing a broader infringement profile.
`But the claims are limited to five lens elements. And those five lens
`elements basically mathematically perform and capture light and pass it
`through the system to the point where they converge at a point in space, and
`that is defined as the image plane.
`What is placed there at that image plane to capture the image is
`irrelevant to the inquiry here today because the claim limitation is directed to
`a lens assembly which is just the order of the five lens elements and that they
`recognize that there's a point in space where all of the light converges in
`order to form the image.
`That's where a sensor would be placed, and that is the image plane.
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` JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Can that lens assembly absent an
`electronic sensor or any other type of capturing device, is that useful for
`anything? Does that do anything on its own?
`MR. PARSONS: And I think that would come down to how you
`market and sell a lens assembly. I mean, I'm sure that there are providers
`out that there that have lens assemblies that they sell and they tell a, like a
`camera manufacturer or somebody that's providing the sensor component
`where that lens assembly needs to be positioned in relation to the sensor.
`A lens assembly can be sold and marketed independent of the image
`plane -- or sorry, independent of a sensor that's used. And so these claims
`aren't limited to a sensor, any kind of sensor. But we recognize the need to
`define where the image convergence would take place which is defined as
`the image plane.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Thank you.
`MR. PARSONS: Thank you. Now continuing on with that, you
`know, we have discussed with Dr. Moore as we have talked about before
`and in Slide 8 we've included some excerpts from Dr. Moore's deposition
`transcript.
`And to the extent that this is an issue Dr. Moore agrees if you look at
`Line 18 on Slide 8 we asked Dr. Moore, would Dr. Sasian's construction of
`TTL be included in the broadest reasonable construction? Dr. Moore
`agrees.
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`So to the extent that there is any difference in the parties
`constructions both experts agree that all that's important here is we know
`where the sensor would be placed but not that a sensor is actually physically
`required to be there in the system.
`On Slide 9, continuing with this we asked Dr. Moore if total track
`length existed before electronic sensors, and he agrees that in fact they did.
`On the right hand portion of the excerpt from the transcript that we've
`included at about Line 22, we asked a -- we asked, a person of ordinary skill
`in the art would understand that film is an image plane.
`Dr. Moore agreed that, yes, in the old days the image plane is where
`film was placed. So again the specification, Dr. Moore, and our expert all
`agree that the image plane is where something is placed to capture the
`image. That's where image formation occurs and that's where TTL should
`probably be construed to is that point in space where image formation takes
`place.
`
`Now in Slide 10 we've included an excerpt from Dr. Sasian's
`declaration that accompanied the reply. And this is to address Patent
`Owner's argument that they are trying to make some ambiguity out of the
`term image plane.
`Now they're relying on extrinsic evidence, specifically a Kingslake
`reference. And what that talks about, it talks about a focus shift that can be
`defined for a lens assembly that would move the image sensor from the
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`paraxial or ideal image plane to some other distance which they're calling an
`actual image plane.
`Now to the extent that they're trying to make an argument that these
`are mutually exclusive concepts, they actually aren't because Dr. Moore has
`actually admitted, as Dr. Sasian shows here, you know, Dr. Sasian says well
`first Dr. Moore acknowledges in his declaration that the ideal image plane
`and the actual image plane may be in the same location in a lens system.
`And that's the case that we have here is in the '568 patent as well as
`in the Ogino reference they all teach the same thing that the image sensor,
`which is what Patent Owner is calling the actual image plane, is at the
`paraxial image plane. And there is no difference between those two image
`planes. It's just a matter of terminology difference, but they're actually in
`the same location.
`Now to support this if you turn to Slide 11, the portion of Dr.
`Sasian's declaration from Paragraph 6, Dr. Sasian says the '568 patent
`teaches against focus shift, for example, in Figures 1B and 2B show how the
`image contrast will be degraded when the focus shift is used.
`Now again, the Kingslake reference talks about the actual image
`plane being subject to a focus shift. But the '568 patent doesn't teach
`anything about using a focus shift or putting the image sensor or the image
`plane being anywhere other than the paraxial image plane. And you can
`see that from Figure 1B here that the line on the bottom shows the amount of
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`focus shift in millimeters. And at the point zero is where the best image
`would be obtained. And you if you shift the sensor one way or the other off
`of that zero point that the image quality degrades.
`Now Dr. Sasian goes on to say in Paragraph 7, as shown above, a
`tiny focus shift of plus or minus .01 millimeters would lower significantly
`the image contrast. Therefore, a POSITA would have understood to avoid
`this degradation of image contrast, the image plane location and the sensor
`position are set and unambiguous. In other words, in the '568 patent there is
`no concept that's being taught of using anything other than the paraxial
`image plane in order to define where a sensor is going to be placed.
`So, to the extent that there's any ambiguity in the terms of image
`plane in light of the '568 patent, there really isn't any. The image plane is
`the paraxial image plane, and that's what the reference teaches that's being
`used.
`
`It doesn't show a focus shift. It doesn't show any benefit for using a
`focus shift. And so the most logical definition of TTL is defining it to the
`point where image formation occurs which the patent describes as being the
`paraxial image plane.
`Now if there's no questions about that I'd be happy to entertain any
`questions about the proposed construction that we've been briefing in the
`other cases if there is any questions that you would like to ask.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: No questions from me.
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`MR. PARSONS: Okay. All right, then I'll continue on to Slide 12.
`This is our, the second topic that we'd like to discuss. And Patent Owner
`has raised some arguments about the level of ordinary skill in the art in this
`case and the fact that it's different than the two cases that are also pending in
`1146 and 1140.
`Now in Slide 13, as we've provided in the Petition, Dr. Sasian
`believes that the level of ordinary skill is approximately three years of
`experience in designing and/or manufacturing multi lens systems. Now this
`more goes to the idea of manufacturability of lens designs and that a
`POSITA would have experience both in designing and manufacturing lenses
`and would go about designing a lens in a way that they can be manufactured.
`Now this is different slightly than the level of ordinary skill that we
`have presented in the prior cases because this includes a manufacturing
`component. But that's because the '568 patent is a continuation in part and
`includes language specifically to the manufacturability of a lens design.
`In Slide 14, for example, an excerpt from the '568 patent, the first
`portion that we've highlighted, it says a large L11 over L1e ratio which we're
`going to shorthand that for today and just call it the center to edge thickness
`ratio, that that impacts negatively the manufacturability of the lens and its
`quality.
`It goes on to say that the significant reduction in the ratio improves
`the manufacturability and increases the quality of lens assemblies disclosed
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`herein. So essentially what the Patent Owner is trying to claim in the '568
`patent is a small center to edge thickness ratio because that makes lenses
`easier to manufacture.
`The more -- the bigger difference you have between the thickness at
`the center versus the thickness at the edge affects the ability to manufacture
`them easily. So that's essentially what Patent Owner is trying to claim in
`this '568 patent.
`Now to the extent that there's any argument still existing that Patent
`Owner wants to make about whether or not manufacturability considerations
`would be within the level of ordinary skill, we asked Dr. Moore this in
`deposition. On Slide 15, Line 2 from the page that we're citing, we asked is
`it important to consider manufacturing issues when developing a lens design.
`Dr. Moore responded. He said if you're actually going into production, yes.
`Then he goes on to say in the second highlighted portion that those
`people who make lenses for commercial purposes care a lot about
`manufacturing issues. On Slide 16, Patent Owner's own exhibit that they
`have provided at 2014, it says the optical design process includes a myriad
`of tasks that the designer must perform and consider in the process of
`optimizing the performance of an imaging optical system.
`It goes on to say this means that he or she needs to be fully confident
`that all of the following are understood and under control. Now the fourth
`bullet point that we've highlighted, it says assure that the design is
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`manufacturable at a reasonable cost based on fabrication, assembly, and
`alignment of tolerance analysis and performance error budget.
`So in other words, a person of ordinary skill in the art designing
`lenses for commercial purposes which both Corephotonics and the Ogino
`reference, they're both concerned with manufacturing considerations. So
`the manufacturability of a lens design is a consideration that a POSITA
`would think about and would gear their lens designs towards because that's
`the whole purpose of designing lenses to sell it and to manufacture it for
`commercial purposes.
`Now this is important to the last two so -- that we'll discuss today.
`But in the meantime, we'll continue on to our third issue which is that the
`Ogino lens assembly meets the TTL over EFL ratio. And as shown in Slide
`18, there's two limitations that are impacted by the TTL construction today.
`The first one is the total track length of 6.5 millimeters or less. And
`there's no dispute that Ogino meets that limitation. The second limitation is
`a ratio of TTL over EFL of less than 1, and there's a dispute amongst the
`parties as to whether Ogino meets that limitation.
`Now on Slide 18 we've summarized the parties' positions. It's
`Petitioner's belief that the TTL of Ogino's lens assembly in Example 6 is 4.3
`at 7 millimeters when the cover glass is removed. Patent Owner argues
`consistently that the cover glass element cannot be removed and therefore it
`has a TTL of 4.489 millimeters.
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`And based on the difference in TTL between the parties you arrive at
`a ratio of either greater than or less than one. Now flipping to Slide 19, the
`heart of this debate seems to be over whether or not the cover glass in Ogino
`is a required component or whether Ogino teaches that it can be removed.
`As you can see here in the Example 6 embodiment, the cover glass is
`noted as CG. And it's our position that we've maintained throughout the
`petition and today that that's an optional component that can be removed and
`a POSITA would know what to do when that is removed.
`Specifically, our petition showed that when you add up the data in
`the column, in column marked DI, that we've highlighted here from what's
`D2 to D10 which is the object side surface of the first lens element to the
`image site surface of the fifth lens element.
`And then you use the air converted value provided by BF that you
`arrive at 4.387 millimeters which is what Ogino explicitly provides as the
`track length for an embodiment when the cover glass is removed. So we're
`not relying on a theoretical embodiment of Ogino.
`We're not relying on anything that's theoretical about this. We're
`relying on express teachings from Ogino of what happens when a cover
`glass element is taken out of the lens system. Now the reason that we can
`do this is because Ogino explicitly tells us this.
`On Slide 20, if you look at the bullet point on the right hand side, the
`second bullet point the BF value in Ogino indicates an air converted value,
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`which means no cover glass, between the fifth lens element and the image
`plane.
`
`Specifically, the portion that we've highlighted it says the back focal
`length BF and the total lens length, TL, are respectively shown. In addition,
`the back focal length BF indicates an air converted value and likewise in the
`total lens of TL the back focal length uses -- back focal length portion uses
`an air converted value.
`So in other words, Ogino explicitly tells you that you can take out
`the cover glass. And when you do the image then shifts towards the object
`side so the total track length without the cover glass is 4.387 millimeters.
`Now on Slide 21 we've provided a model of Ogino with the cover
`glass removed. The Patent Owner is arguing that this is somehow improper
`for us to include this in our reply. But again, we did not rely on the
`modeling of Ogino to make our case in the petition.
`Our case in the petition relied on express teachings from Ogino, and
`that's what we still rely on today. The modeling is simply provided to make
`sure that Ogino actually performs as described so there's no question as to
`whether or not Ogino actually works as described in the patent.
`Now what Dr. Sasian shows here in the model of Ogino with the
`cover glass removed is that the total track length of this with the cover glass
`taken out is 4.3671 millimeters which if you round to the third place it's the
`same as what Ogino explicitly provides in Table 11 for this embodiment.
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`Now in Slide 22 to the extent the Patent Owner wants to complain
`that they didn't have a model without the cover glass from us in order to
`analyze, in Slide 22 Patent Owner actually provided their own modeling of
`Ogino without the cover glass element.
`They just conveniently left out any information about what the track
`length of that would be. But since they are silent on that point, we can only
`assume that their modeling met the same thing as what Ogino teaches, is that
`the track length is 4.37 millimeters. Otherwise I'm sure Patent Owner
`would have told us if that differed in any way, shape, or form that was
`meaningful.
`Now the reason that we can remove the cover glass in Ogino is, if
`you flip to Slide 23, is because Ogino explicitly tells us that. We're not
`relying on anything other than the express teachings of Ogino that tell us that
`there's an alternative embodiment where the cover glass can be taken out.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Can I ask for clarification --
`MR. PARSONS: Yes.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: -- on the, these are Zemax figures, correct?
`MR. PARSONS: In Slide 21 it's a Zemax figure. On Slide 25, I
`believe, it's a Code V figure.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Okay. It's a different program that's
`produced these two drawings?
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`MR. PARSONS: Yes, different programs. But there's no dispute
`amongst the parties that both of them perform, you know, perform equally
`for that purpose of modeling a lens design.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Okay. Are the two numbers that we're
`comparing here, 4.38671 and then in the bottom figure the only thing I see
`with millimeters is .89?
`MR. PARSONS: Apologies, can you point me to --
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: I'm comparing the figure on Slide 21 with
`the figure on Slide 22.
`MR. PARSONS: Yes. So .89 millimeters is the scaling factor that
`Code V provides.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Okay.
`MR. PARSONS: That just shows that if you were -- that this model
`is done to scale with a factor of .89 millimeters because if you actually
`represented this truthfully in millimeters it would be so small that we
`wouldn't be able to see it. So that's just the scaling factor that's provided by
`Code V.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Okay. So there's no corresponding total
`axial length number on Slide 22?
`MR. PARSONS: Correct. Patent Owner did not provide any data
`with their modeling for Slide 22.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Okay, thank you.
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`MR. PARSONS: Okay, all right. Now, on Slide 23 when we look
`at the Ogino reference in Column 5 it tells us some things that help us to
`understand why you can take the cover glass out.
`The first one is that, the first part that we've called out, Ogino
`describes, it provides its disclosure in terms of Figure 1. And then it says
`and the configuration examples shown in Figures 2 through 6 will also be
`described as necessary.
`So all of these teaching in Ogino apply to all of the embodiments
`unless specifically called out for that specific embodiment. Now going
`down further in Figure -- in Column 5 the second part that we've called out
`is that Ogino teaches that there is an imaging device disposed at the image
`formation surface.
`And this is noted in each of the embodiments as image plane R14 of
`the imaging lens. So Ogino says we're going to put the sensor at the point
`where image formation occurs. And then we -- and we call that the image
`plane.
`
`Further on down, the third part that we've called out, Ogino says the
`various optical member CG may be disposed between the fifth lens element
`and the imaging device based on the configuration of the camera on which
`the imaging lens is mounted.
`And finally, in the fourth portion the next paragraph after that it says
`alternatively, in other words, Ogino is calling out an alternative
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`implementation of its embodiments and effects similar to the optical member
`CG may be given to the fifth lens or the like by applying a coating to the
`fifth lens or the like without using the optical member CG.
`Thereby, it is possible to reduce the number of components and to
`reduce the total lens length. Now, Patent Owner seems to be entering and
`making an argument here that when you take out the cover glass from Ogino
`that there is no teaching that the sensor would move to a new image plane to
`account for the refractive properties of the cover glass being taken out.
`But this just isn't supported by Ogino. Ogino says the benefit
`realized from removing the cover glass is a reduced total lens length. If the
`image sensor didn't move when the cover glass is taken out, then no
`reduction of the lens length would be realized because the sensor would
`basically be in the same location.
`Now Dr. Sasian agrees that this is an incorrect interpretation.
`Instead, on Slide 24 as provided -- sorry.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Could you repeat that point one more
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`time?
`
`MR. PARSONS: Okay. Ogino says that the purpose of removing
`the cover glass in that last called out portion in Column 5 and it spans into
`Column 6, that thereby it is possible to reduce the number of components
`and to reduce the total lens length.
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`The benefit gained by removing the cover glass is to reduce the total
`lens length. If you leave the sensor in the same location when the cover
`glass is removed, as Patent Owner argues, there is no benefit gained by
`removing the cover glass.
`They're arguing that when you take out the cover glass that the track
`length doesn't change because the sensor stays in the same place. That
`directly contradicts the purpose that Ogino teaches of taking out the cover
`glass.
`
`When you take out the cover glass the lens system has a reduced lens
`length. That is achieved because of the optical properties of the cover glass
`are taken out of the lens system. That means that the image plane and
`thereby the sensor would shift to make a reduced lens length.
`So Patent Owner's argument that the sensor wouldn't move
`completely ignores this teaching of Ogino.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: So the position is -- let me make sure I
`understand. The position is if you remove the cover glass you also have to
`remove the sensor otherwise the length won't change.
`MR. PARSONS: You have to move the sensor.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Move the sensor.
`MR. PARSONS: To the new -- to the location of the image plane.
`That would be to the point of mage formation which would then be shifted
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`towards the object side because of the optical properties of the cover glass
`are removed.
`JUDGE ULLAGADDI: Okay, thank you.
`MR. PARSONS: Okay. Now Dr. Sasian's opinion is consistent
`with this. In Slide 24, as we've included in his declaration that
`accompanied the reply in Paragraph 9, he says according to Ogino the image
`sensor is placed at the image plane.
`And he notes the portion that we've just discussed in Column 5
`where Ogino says imaging device 100 is disposed at the image formation
`surface, image plane R14. Dr. Sasian then goes on to say that a POSITA
`would have understood that when the cover glass is removed thereby
`shifting the location of the image plane that the image sensor would then
`also be shifted to the image plane.
`That's because Ogino says we're going to put the image sensor at th

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