UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` _______________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` _______________
`
` APPLE INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
`COREPHOTONICS, LTD.,
`
` Patent Owner.
` _______________
`
`Case No. IPR2019-00030
`
` U.S. Patent No. 9,857,568
` _______________
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`14 VIDEO-RECORDED DEPOSITION OF JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
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`September 5, 2019
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` 8:59 a.m.
`
` Taken at:
` 7060 South Tucson Boulevard
` Tucson, Arizona
`
`Reported by Eve K. Burton, RPR, CRR,
`Arizona CR Certificate No. 50261
` California CSR No. 12527
`
`Corephotonics
`Exhibit 2026
`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`
`1
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
` _______________
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` _______________
`
` APPLE INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
`COREPHOTONICS, LTD.,
`
` Patent Owner.
` _______________
`
`Case No. IPR2019-00030
`
` U.S. Patent No. 9,857,568
` _______________
`
` 1
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` 2
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` 3
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`10
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`14 VIDEO-RECORDED DEPOSITION OF JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
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`September 5, 2019
`
` 8:59 a.m.
`
` Taken at:
` 7060 South Tucson Boulevard
` Tucson, Arizona
`
`Reported by Eve K. Burton, RPR, CRR,
`Arizona CR Certificate No. 50261
` California CSR No. 12527
`
`Corephotonics
`Exhibit 2026
`Apple v. Corephotonics
`IPR2019-00030
`
`1
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 The video-recorded deposition of JOSÉ SASIÁN,
`
` 2 Ph.D., noticed by Patent Owner, was taken on
`
` 3 September 5, 2019, from 8:59 a.m. to 11:39 a.m., at the
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` 4 conference suites of Four Points Sheraton, 7060 South
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` 5 Tucson Boulevard, Tucson, Arizona, before Eve K. Burton,
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` 6 RPR, CRR, Arizona CR Certificate No. 50261, California CSR
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` 7 No. 12527.
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` 8
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` 9 APPEARANCES:
`
`10
`
`11 For Petitioner:
`
`12 HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
` JAMIE H. MCDOLE, ESQ.
`13 JORDAN M. MAUCOTEL, ESQ.
` 2323 Victory Avenue, Suite 700
`14 Dallas, Texas 75219
` (214) 651-5121
`15 jamie.mcdole@haynesboone.com
` jordan.maucotel@haynesboone.com
`16
`
`17 For Patent Owner:
`
`18 RUSS AUGUST & KABAT
` NEIL A. RUBIN, ESQ.
`19 12424 Wilshire Boulevard, 12th Floor
` Los Angeles, California 90025
`20 (310) 826-7474
` mrubin@raklaw.com
`21
`
`22 Also Present:
`
`23 REBECCA GAUTHIER, Legal Videographer
`
`24
`
`25
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`2
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 I N D E X
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` 2 WITNESS: PAGE
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` 3 JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
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` 4 Examination by Mr. Rubin 5
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` 5
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` 6
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` 7
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` 8
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` 9 E X H I B I T S
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`10 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`
`11 Exhibit 2025 Zemax Optical Design Program User's 47
` Manual, July 8, 2011; 805 pages
`12
`
`13 EXHIBITS PREVIOUSLY MARKED
`
`14 EXHIBIT FIRST REFERENCED
`
`15 Exhibit 1001 8
`
`16 Exhibit 1003 34
`
`17 Exhibit 1005 30
`
`18 Exhibit 1020 53
`
`19 Exhibit 1026 22
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`3
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 VIDEO-RECORDED DEPOSITION OF JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
` 2 SEPTEMBER 5, 2019, 8:59 A.M.; TUCSON, ARIZONA
`
` 3
`
` 4 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are on
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` 5 the record to begin the deposition of José Sasián in the
`
` 6 matter of Apple Incorporated versus Corephotonics,
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` 7 Limited. This case is venued in the United States
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` 8 Patent and Trademark Office before the Patent Trial and
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` 9 Appeal Board. The case number is IPR2019-00030.
`
`10 Today's date is September 5th, 2019, and the
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`11 time is 8:59 a.m. This deposition is taking place at the
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`12 Four Points Marriott Hotel.
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`13 The legal videographer is Rebecca Gauthier,
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`14 and the court reporter is Eve Burton, here on behalf of
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`15 Barkley Court Reporters.
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`16 Counsel, please be aware your microphones
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`17 are sensitive and may pick up whispers and private
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`18 conversations, which may be captured on the video, as well
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`19 as taken down by the court reporter as part of the record.
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`20 Would counsel please identify yourselves and
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`21 state whom you represent.
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`22 MR. RUBIN: Neil Rubin of Russ August &
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`23 Kabat, representing the Patent Owner, Corephotonics.
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`24 MR. MCDOLE: Jamie McDole, Haynes and Boone,
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`25 representing the witness and Apple.
`
`4
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`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
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` 1 MR. MAUCOTEL: Jordan Maucotel, Haynes and
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` 2 Boone, representing the witness and Apple.
`
` 3 (Interruption by air traffic noise.)
`
` 4 (Discussion off the record.)
`
` 5 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you, Counsel. The
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` 6 court reporter will now swear in the witness, and we may
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` 7 then proceed.
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` 8 THE COURT REPORTER: Could I have you raise
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` 9 your right hand, please.
`
`10 THE WITNESS: (Complies.)
`
`11 THE COURT REPORTER: Do you solemnly swear
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`12 or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the
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`13 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
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`14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
`
`15 THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
`
`16 Thereupon --
`
`17 JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.,
`
`18 was called as a witness by counsel for Patent Owner and,
`
`19 having been first duly sworn by the Certified Court
`
`20 Reporter, was examined and testified as follows:
`
`21
`
`22 EXAMINATION
`
`23 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`24 Q. Good morning, Dr. Sasián.
`
`25 A. Good morning, Mr. Rubin.
`
`5
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 Q. So this is not the first time that we've met for
`
` 2 a deposition, correct?
`
` 3 A. No, it's not the first time.
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` 4 Q. You recall being deposed in this IPR on July 2nd,
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` 5 2019?
`
` 6 A. I believe so.
`
` 7 Q. And you recall being deposed in an IPR
`
` 8 concerning -- or in two IPRs concerning related
`
` 9 Corephotonics patents on February 15th, 2019?
`
`10 A. Yes, I believe so.
`
`11 Q. And so how many times total have you been
`
`12 deposed?
`
`13 A. Regarding what?
`
`14 Q. Withdrawn.
`
`15 In -- withdrawn.
`
`16 How many times total have you been deposed
`
`17 as an expert witness, including depositions in IPRs
`
`18 concerning Corephotonics and including any other cases
`
`19 you've been deposed as an expert in?
`
`20 A. I haven't updated at my list, but I estimate
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`21 roughly around 13, 14, 15 times.
`
`22 Q. So you're familiar with the deposition process,
`
`23 then, it's fair to say?
`
`24 A. I would say I have some familiarity.
`
`25 Q. So just a few reminders:
`
`6
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 Depending on how long the deposition goes
`
` 2 today, we may take breaks roughly every hour or hour and a
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` 3 half. If at any point you do need to take a break at
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` 4 another time, please let me know, but I will ask that you
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` 5 finish answering any question that is pending, okay?
`
` 6 A. Yes.
`
` 7 Q. And also, there's a rule that governs this
`
` 8 deposition that, during any portion of the deposition
`
` 9 where I am asking questions and we take a break, you're
`
`10 not allowed to discuss the substance of the deposition
`
`11 with counsel for Apple, including any questions that I've
`
`12 asked or that you may anticipate I would ask. You
`
`13 understand that rule?
`
`14 A. Yes.
`
`15 So just to make sure I have it clear, the
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`16 rule says that I cannot speak any matter of the deposition
`
`17 or the case with the -- with counsel to Apple during break
`
`18 times; is that correct?
`
`19 Q. That's correct. And there is an exception to
`
`20 that rule during the break -- during any break that may
`
`21 occur after I've finished asking my questions and before
`
`22 Apple has the opportunity to ask its questions. But
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`23 during breaks where I'm asking you questions, you can't
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`24 discuss the deposition. You understand?
`
`25 A. Yes.
`
`7
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 MR. MCDOLE: I'm going to object to form. I
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` 2 think there's -- that's incorrect a little bit, Neil. I
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` 3 think it's privilege, we're allowed to talk. Just point
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` 4 of -- I think we're all in agreement on that. I just want
`
` 5 to make sure we're clear that, if he has a question on
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` 6 privilege, we can talk about that.
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` 7 MR. RUBIN: That's fair.
`
` 8 MR. MCDOLE: Okay.
`
` 9 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`10 Q. So if there's a que- -- if you have a question
`
`11 that you'd like to discuss with counsel for Apple about
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`12 whether the answer to my question is covered by
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`13 attorney-client privilege or another privilege, you can
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`14 discuss that, but I don't anticipate that's likely to come
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`15 up today, okay?
`
`16 A. Okay.
`
`17 Q. All right. All right. So I've just introduced
`
`18 as an exhibit Apple Exhibit 1001, which is a copy of the
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`19 '568 patent that's the subject of this IPR. I think you
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`20 can view the exhibit by clicking on its name on your
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`21 screen.
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`22 A. Yes.
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`23 Q. All right. And for the record, the exhibits in
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`24 today's deposition are being presented on a tablet. If
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`25 you have any difficulties operating the software, please
`
`8
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 let me know.
`
` 2 You recognize Exhibit 1001 as a copy of the
`
` 3 '568 patent that you've offered opinions concerning in
`
` 4 this case?
`
` 5 A. Yes.
`
` 6 Q. If you could please flip to the fourth page of
`
` 7 the exhibit, and just swipe right on the screen, do you
`
` 8 see Figure 1B?
`
` 9 A. Yes.
`
`10 Q. And do you recall offering opinions on Figure 1B
`
`11 and on similar figures for other embodiments of the '568
`
`12 patent in your reply declaration?
`
`13 A. Yes, I remember that.
`
`14 Q. On the vertical axis of Figure 1B is the label
`
`15 "Modulus of the OTF." What is the OTF?
`
`16 A. OTF stands for optical transfer function.
`
`17 Q. And what's an optical transfer function?
`
`18 A. Optical systems, lens systems can be modelled as
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`19 linear systems. And a linear system produces an output
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`20 that technically is the convolution of the object with the
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`21 point of spread function, and that is in the spatial
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`22 domain.
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`23 However, in the frequency domain, if we take
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`24 the Fourier transform of the image as a convolution, we
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`25 obtain a product of the spectrum of the object times the
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`9
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 spectrum of the point of spread function. But the
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` 2 spectrum of the point of spread function is the optical
`
` 3 transfer function.
`
` 4 Q. And how do you compute the modulus of the optical
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` 5 transfer function?
`
` 6 A. The optical transfer function is a complex --
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` 7 mathematical complex function that has a modulus and a
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` 8 phase. So they're -- mathematically, to obtain the MTF,
`
` 9 one would only consider the modulus of the OTF, and there
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`10 are some specific mathematical equations to obtain the
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`11 modulus of the complex function.
`
`12 Q. Would another term sometimes used to mean the
`
`13 same thing as "modulus" of the complex number be the
`
`14 "absolute value" of the complex number?
`
`15 A. Yeah, it could be.
`
`16 Q. The -- in Figure 1B, below the plot, there's text
`
`17 that reads, "Polychromatic Defraction Through Focus MTF."
`
`18 You see that?
`
`19 A. Yes.
`
`20 Q. Do you understand MTF to -- there to be an
`
`21 abbreviation for modulation transfer function?
`
`22 A. Yes.
`
`23 Q. Is that the same thing as the modulus of the
`
`24 optical transfer function?
`
`25 A. Yes.
`
`10
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 Q. There are certain labels on the figure that say
`
` 2 "TS" and then an angle in degrees?
`
` 3 A. Yes.
`
` 4 Q. What do the letters "T" and "S" stand for, as you
`
` 5 understand the figure?
`
` 6 A. They refer to two directions, the tangential and
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` 7 the sagittal.
`
` 8 Q. So the plots labelled "T" and "S" are the modulus
`
` 9 of the OTF for the -- for sagittal raise, in the case of
`
`10 S, and tangential raise in the case of T? Is that right?
`
`11 A. Well, the MTF, it's a two-dimensional function,
`
`12 like a mountain, say. And the mountain, it has many
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`13 cross-sections. And in one direction, say, north/south,
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`14 we can call it the tangential direction, and in a
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`15 perpendicular direction, west/east, would be the sagittal
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`16 direction. The cross-section of the mountain, if the
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`17 mountain is the MTF, that would give us the -- either the
`
`18 T or the S cross-sections we are seeing here.
`
`19 Q. The horizontal axis of Figure 1B is labelled
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`20 "Focus shift" and then, in parentheses, millimeters. How
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`21 is a focus shift calculated?
`
`22 A. As I said before, the optical transfer function
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`23 turns out to be the Fourier transform of the point of
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`24 spread function. When -- and that transfer -- and that
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`25 point of spread function corresponds to a position of an
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`11
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 observation plane.
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` 2 So notice that the observation plane, it's
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` 3 at zero in the graph. For that position, there is a point
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` 4 of spread function, and taking the Fourier transform of
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` 5 that point of spread function give us the optical transfer
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` 6 function. And from there, we obtain the modulus, which is
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` 7 the MTF, and we obtain one point for zero focus shift.
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` 8 Then for a focus shift, say, of minus
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` 9 .01 millimeters, we move the observation plane to minus
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`10 .01 millimeters. The point of spread function changes.
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`11 We take the Fourier transform of the point -- of the point
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`12 of spread function that has changed, obtain the optical
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`13 transfer function, obtain the modulus of the optical
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`14 transfer function, and obtain another point on plot.
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`15 And then we continue doing this and obtain
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`16 the different points of a given curve as we change the
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`17 observation plane position, which is the focus shift.
`
`18 Q. So if I'm understanding what you said correctly,
`
`19 each point along one of the curves in Figure 1B, or in the
`
`20 other corresponding Figures 2B and 3B, is the value of the
`
`21 MTF for a given position of the observation plane?
`
`22 A. Yes. Every observation plane, according to this
`
`23 position, has an MTF. And we determine, say, for the T
`
`24 direction what is the high, and then for that shift, we
`
`25 plot that particular point. And then we may shift again
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`12
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 and obtain another point and then construct the graph.
`
` 2 Q. So what position of the observation plane
`
` 3 corresponds to a focus shift of zero on these MTF plots?
`
` 4 A. Well, here the plot says that for a focal --
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` 5 focus shift of zero, we obtain some values for the
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` 6 different curves, and we can put them on the vertical
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` 7 scale that reads "Modulus of the OTF," for example.
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` 8 For the zero degree curve, zero degrees, the
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` 9 T and the S look like the MTF is around .5 when we are at
`
`10 zero focus shift. But if we go to a focus shift of, say,
`
`11 minus .03, then the MTF gets reduced to about .1.
`
`12 Q. Where is the observation plane located when the
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`13 focus shift in plots such as Figure 1B is zero?
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`14 MR. MCDOLE: Objection. Form.
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`15 THE WITNESS: Well, there is relation of
`
`16 this plot with respect to the lens structure, and this
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`17 zero position for the observation plane would correspond,
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`18 if we go further, say, to Table -- to one of the tables,
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`19 say, Table 5, the image plane is indicated to be
`
`20 .2 millimeters from surface 13 on Table 2. So we'll
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`21 understand that the zero position, it's at .2 millimeters
`
`22 from the last surface.
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`23 THE COURT REPORTER: Did you say that the MS
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`24 plane is at .2, or is it something else?
`
`25 THE WITNESS: That the observation plane,
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`13
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 it's at .2 millimeters from the last surface for a focus
`
` 2 shift of zero.
`
` 3 MR. RUBIN: So I think your question was
`
` 4 about a particular word that the witness used, and I think
`
` 5 the word was "image," as in "image plane."
`
` 6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
`
` 7 MR. RUBIN: Yeah.
`
` 8 MR. MCDOLE: We can look at that for the
`
` 9 errata. That's fine.
`
`10 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`11 Q. So as you're interpreting the focus shift value
`
`12 in Figure 1B, Figure 2B, and Figure 3B of the '568 patent,
`
`13 am I correct in understanding that you interpret the focus
`
`14 shift to be the difference between the location of the
`
`15 observation plane and the location of the last surface
`
`16 listed in the lens prescription tables?
`
`17 MR. MCDOLE: Objection. Form.
`
`18 THE WITNESS: Well, let me answer your
`
`19 question by saying that a table like Table 5 is produced
`
`20 by lens design software, and the software optimizes the
`
`21 lens to produce a good image or an image. After -- and
`
`22 specifies where is that image.
`
`23 And as I said, that image is at
`
`24 .2 millimeters from the last surface, according to the
`
`25 table.
`
`14
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 Then, after the lens has -- after the
`
` 2 program has optimized the lens, the lens designer may
`
` 3 decide to do an analysis, say, of the MTF. And then the
`
` 4 program calculates the MTF at different locations from the
`
` 5 nominal position as when the lens was optimized. So that
`
` 6 focal shift is with respect to the position indicated
`
` 7 here.
`
` 8 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
` 9 Q. So would you agree that Figures 1B, 2B, and 3B in
`
`10 the '568 patent show the effects on the MTF of placing an
`
`11 image sensor at a location other than the optimal location
`
`12 determined by the lens design software?
`
`13 MR. MCDOLE: Objection. Form.
`
`14 THE WITNESS: Would you please repeat the
`
`15 question.
`
`16 MR. RUBIN: Let's wait for the noise to die
`
`17 down.
`
`18 THE WITNESS: I can go and ask them.
`
`19 MR. MCDOLE: No, no. You stay here.
`
`20 MR. RUBIN: All right. Let's go off the
`
`21 record.
`
`22 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Going off the record.
`
`23 The time is 9:23 a.m.
`
`24 (Recess taken.)
`
`25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on the
`
`15
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 record. The time is 9:24 a.m.
`
` 2 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
` 3 Q. Dr. Sasián, would you agree that Figures 1B, 2B,
`
` 4 and 3B in the '568 patent show the effects on the MTF of
`
` 5 placing an image sensor at a location other than the
`
` 6 optimal location that was determined by the lens design
`
` 7 software?
`
` 8 MR. MCDOLE: Objection. Form.
`
` 9 THE WITNESS: Could you please repeat it
`
`10 once more.
`
`11 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`12 Q. Dr. Sasián, would you agree that Figures 1B, 2B,
`
`13 and 3B in the '568 patent show the effects on the MTF of
`
`14 placing an image sensor at a location other than the
`
`15 optimal location that was determined by the lens design
`
`16 software?
`
`17 MR. MCDOLE: Objection. Form.
`
`18 THE WITNESS: Well, I think I wouldn't agree
`
`19 with that, because the effects on the MTF are a
`
`20 consequence of calculating the MTF with a focus shift.
`
`21 They are not a consequence of placing the sensor at a
`
`22 different location.
`
`23 And the reason I say it is because, as I
`
`24 said before, that these plots are calculated by moving the
`
`25 observation plane and doing this mathematical operation to
`
`16
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 determine the MTF, and from there, the plot -- and from
`
` 2 there, one calculates the MTF values. And up to this
`
` 3 point, I haven't used a sensor to calculate the plots.
`
` 4 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
` 5 Q. Would you agree that Figures 1B, 2B, and 3B in
`
` 6 the '568 patent show the effects on the MTF of placing the
`
` 7 observation plane at a location other than the optimal
`
` 8 image plane location that was determined by the lens
`
` 9 design software?
`
`10 MR. MCDOLE: Objection. Form.
`
`11 THE WITNESS: Yes. The plots indicate the
`
`12 change of MTF, including when there is no change on the
`
`13 observation plane, because the plots include the zero
`
`14 position which is the nominal design position.
`
`15 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`16 Q. So, for example, a focus shift of .01 on
`
`17 Figure 1B indicates that the observation plane is located
`
`18 .01 millimeters further away from the object side than the
`
`19 optimal image plane location; is that right?
`
`20 A. I would say from the distance specified on the
`
`21 prescription table.
`
`22 Q. So the prescription table, for example, Table 5
`
`23 in the '568 patent, shows a location of an image plane; is
`
`24 that your understanding?
`
`25 A. It specifies the image plane. In conjunction
`
`17
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 with the TTL given in the prescription and in conjunction
`
` 2 with the figures, one would understand that the
`
` 3 .2 millimeters corresponds to where the image has been
`
` 4 optimized by the program.
`
` 5 Q. So what's the difference between an image plane
`
` 6 and an observation plane, as you use those terms today?
`
` 7 A. The image plane is where an image is located.
`
` 8 But an image, it's formed by beams of light, and the beams
`
` 9 of light are just not in a single plane. The beams of
`
`10 light propagate in three-dimensional space. So one can
`
`11 determine what is the distribution of light at different
`
`12 planes, but one, it's indicated to be the image plane.
`
`13 I don't know if that answers your question.
`
`14 Q. So I don't think in your answer you explained
`
`15 what an observation plane is.
`
`16 A. An observation plane is just a plane where you
`
`17 decide to evaluate what's the light distribution.
`
`18 Q. And when you evaluate the light distribution at a
`
`19 given observation plane, you're determining what light
`
`20 would be received by a physical object that was placed at
`
`21 that location, correct?
`
`22 A. Not exactly. In the context of the '568, in
`
`23 relation to the MTF curves, the MTF curves give us
`
`24 information about the contrast -- the contrast of an
`
`25 image, and the image is the image of the object. And the
`
`18
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 MTF is telling us what's the contrast of that image if we
`
` 2 place the observation plane at zero or to the left or to
`
` 3 the right.
`
` 4 Q. Would you agree that the curves shown in
`
` 5 Figure 1B, 2B, and 3B of the '568 patent are relevant to a
`
` 6 lens designer because they show the effect on image
`
` 7 contrast of locating an image sensor at someplace other
`
` 8 than the location indicated by the lens prescription?
`
` 9 MR. MCDOLE: Objection. Form.
`
`10 THE WITNESS: Would you please repeat the
`
`11 question.
`
`12 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`13 Q. Would you agree that the curves shown in
`
`14 Figure 1B, 2B, and 3B of the '568 patent are relevant to a
`
`15 lens designer because they show the effect on image
`
`16 contrast of locating an image sensor at someplace other
`
`17 than the location indicated by the lens prescription?
`
`18 MR. MCDOLE: Objection. Form.
`
`19 THE WITNESS: I'd like to answer your
`
`20 question by saying that the MTF are relevant in lens
`
`21 design because they provide information about the contrast
`
`22 of an image. And that contrast of an image would be
`
`23 acquired if you place a sensor.
`
`24 So the sensor will acquire the -- the sensor
`
`25 will be sensitive to electromagnetic radiation, and the
`
`19
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 sensor will, through electronics, produce a signal
`
` 2 representing the -- that electr- -- the distribution of
`
` 3 that electromagnetic radiation, representing the object.
`
` 4 Now, as I said before, if we change
`
` 5 observation plane, the contrasts change, according to the
`
` 6 plots in Figures 1-, 2-, and 3B. And if we, in addition,
`
` 7 place a sensor on those -- at the location of those
`
` 8 observation planes, the -- the information acquired by the
`
` 9 sensor will see a decrease or an increase in the contrast
`
`10 of the image represented by that information acquired by
`
`11 the sensor.
`
`12 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`13 Q. So a lens designer looking at a plot such as that
`
`14 in Figure 1B can see the effects on the contrast of the
`
`15 image that result from shifting the location of the image
`
`16 sensor, correct?
`
`17 A. Let me rephrase that or answer it like this: A
`
`18 lens designer will understand that the information
`
`19 acquired by the sensor when it's placed at a focus shift
`
`20 of zero will be electronically transferred and recreated
`
`21 as an image with a contrast pretty much related to the
`
`22 contrast shown on plot 1B for a focus shift of zero. Then
`
`23 the lens designer would say, if we move the observation
`
`24 plane and, along with it, the sensor, the information
`
`25 acquired by the sensor and processed electronically to
`
`20
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 render an image would yield an image that has a reduced
`
` 2 contrast, as indicated in the plot.
`
` 3 Q. Generally speaking, a modulation transfer
`
` 4 function -- withdrawn.
`
` 5 Generally speaking, it's desirable for a
`
` 6 lens system to have a high modulation transfer function;
`
` 7 would you agree?
`
` 8 MR. MCDOLE: Objection. Form.
`
` 9 THE WITNESS: Not necessarily. Depending on
`
`10 application. But for imaging applications like the cell
`
`11 phones where we like good image quality, yes, we want to
`
`12 have a high modulation transfer function.
`
`13 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`14 Q. An MTF of 1 corresponds to perfect contrast in an
`
`15 image; is that right?
`
`16 A. We can say that, yes.
`
`17 Q. And an MTF of zero corresponds to no contrast in
`
`18 the image, correct?
`
`19 A. That's correct.
`
`20 Q. So an image with an MTF of zero, there's no
`
`21 detail at all visible in the image because the light's all
`
`22 smeared out?
`
`23 A. For our -- if the MTF is zero for all
`
`24 frequencies, there is no detail to be detected.
`
`25 Q. So all else being equal, for imaging
`
`21
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 applications, a higher MTF value is more desirable than a
`
` 2 lower MTF value; is that right?
`
` 3 MR. MCDOLE: Objection. Form.
`
` 4 THE WITNESS: For sharp imaging, usually,
`
` 5 yes, that's the case. The higher MTF, say, for a single
`
` 6 frequency, it's more desirable than a lower frequency for
`
` 7 that spatial frequency.
`
` 8 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
` 9 Q. So I just introduced and you should have
`
`10 available in your tablet Exhibit 1026. I think if you --
`
`11 let's see. Maybe if you tap on the screen and hit back --
`
`12 A. Okay.
`
`13 Q. -- then you can click on 1026.
`
`14 A. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. I -- 1026, yes.
`
`15 Q. Okay. So do you recognize Exhibit 1026 as your
`
`16 declaration in support of Apple's reply in IPR2019-00030?
`
`17 A. Yes, it appears so.
`
`18 Q. And you brought with you today a paper copy of
`
`19 this same declaration; is that right?
`
`20 A. Yes.
`
`21 Q. So feel free to consult either version, as you
`
`22 wish.
`
`23 If you could please turn to paragraph 3 of
`
`24 your declaration, which is on page 4.
`
`25 A. Yes.
`
`22
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 Q. On the third -- withdrawn.
`
` 2 In paragraph 3, the third sentence reads,
`
` 3 "First, Dr. Moore acknowledges in his declaration (by
`
` 4 citing to my book) that the ideal image plane and the
`
` 5 actual image plane may be in the same location in a lens
`
` 6 system." You see that?
`
` 7 A. Yes.
`
` 8 Q. So you would agree that an ideal image plane and
`
` 9 an actual image plane may be in the same location for a
`
`10 given lens system?
`
`11 A. Yes.
`
`12 Q. And since they may be in the same location for
`
`13 certain lens systems, for other lens systems, the ideal
`
`14 image plane and actual image plane may be in different
`
`15 locations; would you agree?
`
`16 MR. MCDOLE: Objection. Form.
`
`17 THE WITNESS: For some hypothetical systems,
`
`18 that could be the case.
`
`19 BY MR. RUBIN:
`
`20 Q. So in your answer, you refer to "hypothetical
`
`21 systems." Are you saying that there's no actual
`
`22 real-world lens system where the ideal image plane and
`
`23 actual image plane may be in different locations?
`
`24 A. I just want to distinguish between some systems,
`
`25 hypothetical systems that may be real, and the systems in
`
`23
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 the '568 patent. And in the Ogino patent, too.
`
` 2 Q. So when you use the word "hypothetical" in your
`
` 3 answer, you're not saying that they aren't -- I'm sorry.
`
` 4 Withdrawn.
`
` 5 When you referred to a system as being
`
` 6 hypothetical in the answer that you just gave, you're not
`
` 7 saying that that ques- -- that that system doesn't exist
`
` 8 in the real world, correct?
`
` 9 A. Right. It may exist.
`
`10 Q. If you could please turn to page 9 of your
`
`11 declaration, Exhibit 1026.
`
`12 A. Yes.
`
`13 Q. On page 9, there is an image taken from a
`
`14 screenshot of the Zemax OpticStudio software; is that
`
`15 right?
`
`16 A. It's actually not Zemax OpticStudio. It's Zemax,
`
`17 just Zemax.
`
`18 Q. Okay.
`
`19 A. Because this is -- if I remember well, the
`
`20 version of February 14, two thousand -- many years ago,
`
`21 where it was called still Zemax. And after that, the name
`
`22 was changed to OpticStudio.
`
`23 Q. I see. So the -- withdrawn.
`
`24 To the best of your recollection, what
`
`25 version of Zemax did you use in preparing the images that
`
`24
`
`JOSÉ SASIÁN, Ph.D.
`
`
`
` 1 you included in your declaration?
`
` 2 A. I -- if I remember well, it's February 14, 2011,
`
` 3 but I would have to check.
`
` 4 Q. So are versions of Zemax identified by release
`
` 5 date, not by version numbers?
`
` 6 A. I don't recall. I think that it may be both, but
`
` 7 I don't recall distinctly.
`
` 8 Q. The software that's currently offered for sale
`
` 9 under the name Zemax OpticStudio is a later version of the
`
`10 same program that you used in creating the images in your
`
`11 declaration; is that right?
`
`12 A. Yes, it's a later version and likely improved.
`
`13 Q. So February 2011, that's eight and a half years
`
`14 old. Is there a reason why you chose to use the older
`
`15 version of the software rather than a more recent version?
`
`16 A. Well, one reason, it's because the software, it's
`
`17 slightly before the priority date of some of the asserted
`
`18 patents in the -- in the -- in -- that we have been
`
`19 discussing.
`
`20 Q. How many versions of the Zemax software do you
`
`21 have available to use?
`
`22 A. I think I have several, several versions.
`
`23 Q. And so you have available to use more recent
`
`24 versions of the Zema
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