RIMFROST AS VS.
`AKER BIOMARINE ANTARCTIC AS
`
`NILS HOEM, PhD
`January 10, 2018
`
`Original File 116436.TXT
`Min-U-Script® with Word Index
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0000
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`AKER BIOMARINE ANTARCTIC AS
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`NILS HOEM, PhD
`January 10, 2018
`
`Original File 116436.TXT
`Min-U-Script® with Word Index
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0000
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`
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`1
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` 1 IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT
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` 2 AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` 3 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` ------------------------------------------------X
` 4 RIMFROST AS,
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` 5 Petitioner,
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` 6 - against -
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` 7 AKER BIOMARINE ANTARCTIC AS,
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` 8 Patent Owner.
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` 9 Case: IPR2017-00745, IPR2017-00746
` IPR2017-00747, IPR2017-00748
`10 ------------------------------------------------X
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`11
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`12 6 Campus Drive
` Parsippany, New Jersey
`13
` January 10, 2018
`14 8:55 a.m.
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`15
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`16 Deposition of Expert Witness, NILS HOEM, PhD,
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`17 before Rita Persichetty, a Notary Public of the
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`18 State of New Jersey.
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23 ELLEN GRAUER COURT REPORTING CO, LLC
` 126 East 56th Street, Fifth Floor
`24 New York, New York 10022
` 212-750-6434
`25 REF: 116436
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0001
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`2
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` 1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
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` 2
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` 3 HOFFMAN & BARON, LLP
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` 4 Attorneys for Petitioner
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` 5 6 Campus Drive
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` 6 Parsippany, New Jersey 07054-4406
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` 7 BY: JAMES F. HARRINGTON, ESQ.
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` 8 - and-
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` 9 MICHAEL CHAKANSKY, ESQ.
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`10 PHONE: 973.331.1700
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`11 FAX: 973.331.1717
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`12 EMAIL: Mchakansky@hbiplaw.com
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`13
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`14 CASIMIR JONES S.C.
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`15 Attorneys for Patent Owner
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`16 2275 Deming Way, Suite 310
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`17 Middleton, Wisconsin 53562
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`18 BY: J. MITCHELL JONES, J.D., PhD
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`19 PHONE: 608.662.1277
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`20 FAX: 608.662.1276
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`21 EMAIL: Jmjones@casimirjones.com
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0002
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`3
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` 1 ------------------- I N D E X -------------------
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` 2 WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE
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` 3 NILS HOEM MR. HARRINGTON 4
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` 4
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` 5
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` 6 ---------------- E X H I B I T S ----------------
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` 7 HOEM DESCRIPTION FOR I.D.
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` 8 Exhibit 1 Notice of Deposition 5
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` 9 Exhibit 2 PowerPoint presentation 20
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`10 Exhibit 3 GRAS notification 50
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`11 Exhibit 4 Australian declaration 68
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`12
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`13
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`14 (Exhibits retained by Mr. Chakansky)
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`15
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0003
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`4
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` 1 N I L S H O E M,
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` 2 called as a witness, having been sworn
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` 3 by the Notary Public, was examined and
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` 4 testified as follows:
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` 5
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` 6 EXAMINATION BY
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` 7 MR. HARRINGTON:
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` 8 Q Okay. Could you state your name for
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` 9 the record, please?
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`10 A My name is Nils Hoem.
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`11 Q Okay. Dr. Hoem, my name is Jim
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`12 Harrington. I represent the Petitioner,
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`13 Rimfrost AS, in connection with the four IPR's
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`14 that are the subject of this deposition. I'm
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`15 going to be asking you some questions. I
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`16 understand you've been deposed before?
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`17 A I have.
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`18 Q Okay. So you understand the rules.
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`19 We need to speak one at a time loudly and
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`20 clearly. Our answers need to be verbal instead
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`21 of a shake or nod of the head.
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`22 Is there any reason you feel you
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`23 can't answer competently today?
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`24 A No.
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`25 Q Okay. Very good. And if you need a
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0004
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`5
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 break at any time, just let us know. We may
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` 3 ask you to finish the question if there's one
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` 4 pending. But just let us know if you need any
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` 5 breaks. Okay?
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` 6 (Hoem Exhibit 1, Notice of
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` 7 Deposition, marked for identification.)
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` 8 Q Okay. Dr. Hoem, I'm going to show
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` 9 you what's been marked as Hoem Exhibit 1 and
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`10 ask if you've seen these before.
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`11 A This, in this format, no.
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`12 Q Okay.
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`13 A No, I have not seen it before.
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`14 Q Okay. But you understand that you're
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`15 here to testify pursuant to these four notices
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`16 for the four different IPR's that are pending.
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`17 A Yes, I do.
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`18 Q Okay. What we'll do is -- and I
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`19 think because of the overlap of the four IPR's,
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`20 even though I'm asking about one particular
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`21 IPR, you understand that the issues, because of
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`22 the overlap, could apply to all four?
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`23 A Yes, I do.
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`24 (Discussion held off the record.)
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`25 Q Okay. Dr. Hoem, I've shown you
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0005
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`6
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 what's been identified as Aker Exhibit 2001,
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` 3 and you'll see on the cover page there it
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` 4 identifies Rimfrost AS, Petitioner, v. Aker
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` 5 BioMarine, Patent Owner, the case IPR
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` 6 2017-00745, declaration of Dr. Nils Hoem.
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` 7 A Yeah.
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` 8 Q Okay. And you recognize that as your
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` 9 signature at the end?
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`10 A Yup. I guess I should go to the very
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`11 end. All right. So that's the -- yes, that is
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`12 my signature.
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`13 Q Okay. Can you explain to us your
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`14 background a little bit, I guess, starting with
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`15 your educational history?
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`16 A Well, it is stated in my declaration.
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`17 I have a background as a master with pharmacy
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`18 and specifically in pharmacology, and a
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`19 doctorate in pharmacology also from the same
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`20 institution.
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`21 Q Which is?
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`22 A The University of Oslo School of
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`23 Pharmacy. My specific work in that capacity
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`24 was on cascade systems, inflammatory cascade
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`25 systems in plasma, and among them the
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0006
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`7
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 coagulation system that exists in the -- the
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` 3 cascade systems in plasma, the coagulation
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` 4 system, the fib analytic system, and what is
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` 5 called a complement system. So I worked with
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` 6 these, these inflammatory systems, for quite a
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` 7 number of years, which was then my doctorate.
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` 8 And I was an associate professor at the
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` 9 University of Oslo from 1998 and all the way
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`10 until 2002.
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`11 Q Okay. When did you, when did you get
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`12 your doctorate?
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`13 A My doctorate was actually -- it was a
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`14 very special situation because I was
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`15 actually -- I became an associate professor
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`16 before I had my doctorate based on my early
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`17 research --
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`18 Q Okay.
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`19 A -- in '90 -- '89. And then I was
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`20 awarded my, you know, my doctorate in 2001. I
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`21 don't -- you know, it's quite a few years ago.
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`22 And not in 2001, in 1991. And, yeah, and I
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`23 worked in that field. I also worked in
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`24 pharmacokinetics and individualized drug
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`25 therapy for quite a few years, among other
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0007
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`8
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 places in USC in Los Angeles. And then I left
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` 3 the university for early pharma research in
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` 4 2002. And as --
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` 5 Q So, I'm sorry, where were you a
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` 6 professor?
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` 7 A At the University of Oslo.
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` 8 Q Okay.
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` 9 A Yeah. And then I left the University
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`10 of Oslo and worked in early pharma research
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`11 from 2002. I worked as a private consultant
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`12 for a company up in Connecticut developing a
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`13 new drug. The place is called -- the firm is
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`14 now vegan it's called Alexion Pharmaceuticals.
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`15 Q Uh-huh.
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`16 A But I was part of the group that
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`17 developed that first drug Eculizumab, and I did
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`18 all the --
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`19 (Discussion held off the record.)
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`20 A It was registered in Europe and in
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`21 the US in 2007. And then that -- ahead of that
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`22 I joined a CRO, at that time a fairly large
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`23 one, a Canadian-American CRO called MDS Pharma
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`24 Services, and worked with them in Hamburg, in
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`25 Germany for several years, three years. And --
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0008
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`9
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 Q What were your responsibilities?
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` 3 A I was director of -- I was director
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` 4 of data management, mathematical modeling and
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` 5 statistics. So in early -- this is early phase
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` 6 research.
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` 7 Q Uh-huh.
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` 8 A And then I joined Aker, the -- well,
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` 9 actually worked for Pronova for a few months,
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`10 Pronova, which is a fish oil manufacturer now
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`11 part of BASF. But I worked with them for a few
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`12 months before I joined Aker at the first of,
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`13 first of January 2008. So I have a ten-year
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`14 anniversary.
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`15 Q Okay.
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`16 A And that's -- I think that pretty
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`17 much gives you an idea about my background.
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`18 Q Right. And what was your position
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`19 when you first joined Aker?
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`20 A I was director of R&D pharma at that
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`21 time.
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`22 Q Okay. And then that position changed
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`23 at some point?
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`24 A It's changed. You know, I've been VP
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`25 of R&D, and then I became --
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0009
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`10
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 Q When was that?
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` 3 A Well, I would have to -- two years
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` 4 after --
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` 5 Q Okay. Uh-huh.
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` 6 A -- give or take. Frankly, I don't
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` 7 really recall. And then I became a chief
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` 8 scientist about three or four years ago.
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` 9 Q Okay.
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`10 A And then I took over a more leading
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`11 role or a more strategic role.
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`12 Q And that's your position today.
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`13 A That's my position today.
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`14 Q Okay. Did you have any involvement,
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`15 when you joined in 2008, in the patents that
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`16 are the subject of the lawsuit -- I'm sorry,
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`17 the subject of the IPR?
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`18 A No.
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`19 Q Okay. And at one point you said you
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`20 had some experience in manufacturing with fish
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`21 oil?
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`22 A I just worked with Pronova and,
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`23 again, in early pharma research in Pronova.
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`24 Pronova had a pharma outfit --
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`25 Q Right.
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0010
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`11
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 A -- and it actually was really a
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` 3 pharmaceutical company. You know, they
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` 4 developed Lovaza. So I was -- that was only in
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` 5 pharmaceutical research, and I didn't touch
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` 6 their, their regular fish oil business at all.
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` 7 Q Okay. So was there -- did you have
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` 8 any experience in manufacturing with the fish
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` 9 oil?
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`10 A No.
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`11 Q And do you have any experience in
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`12 measuring or analyzing the fish oil or lipid
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`13 components?
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`14 A Over the years I've worked at Aker,
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`15 yes.
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`16 Q Okay. Can you explain that?
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`17 A Well, that's part of our research.
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`18 And since I also have had my hands in different
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`19 kinds of research, I've been -- I've had to
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`20 have our product analyzed in many different
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`21 ways and at many different levels.
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`22 Q Uh-huh. So typically then, when you
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`23 want those components analyzed, you typically
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`24 farm that out to outside, outside firms?
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`25 A At Aker we had our capacities
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0011
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`12
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 inside --
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` 3 Q Uh-huh.
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` 4 A -- depending on the period.
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` 5 Q Okay.
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` 6 A And we've also, as any other such
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` 7 company would do, we used outside.
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` 8 Q But have you personally been involved
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` 9 in actually analyzing the lipid components?
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`10 A You need to be a little bit more
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`11 specific about -- I, I can't -- you know, do
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`12 you mean if I was in the lab doing it or --
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`13 Q Right.
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`14 A I've been into the lab doing it, yes,
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`15 but I've never done it all on my own.
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`16 Q Uh-huh. Has any of your research
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`17 been involved in analyzing lipid components?
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`18 A Yes.
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`19 Q Can you describe it?
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`20 A Much of my research, much of my
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`21 research and for the last years when I've been
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`22 working with Aker is a -- a substantial
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`23 component of that would be to have the
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`24 substances analyzed. You know, the substance
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`25 that we use, for example, for a clinical trial
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0012
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`13
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 would need to be thoroughly analyzed.
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` 3 Likewise, raw materials will have to
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` 4 be analyzed. Processing materials, our
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` 5 intermediates would have to be analyzed. And,
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` 6 and also, for example, in the work of -- in
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` 7 work towards standardization, like monography
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` 8 of USP, for example, involves a fair amount of
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` 9 analytical work.
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`10 Q Okay. And when you get to the point
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`11 in your responsibilities with Aker where, let's
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`12 say, the lipid components need to be analyzed,
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`13 what's the procedure typically for that?
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`14 A It would typically be to find a
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`15 competent lab that can do it either internally
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`16 or externally.
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`17 Q Okay.
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`18 A Then detail what we need, and then,
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`19 of course, get the interpretation from, from
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`20 the lab always, and then, of course, add on
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`21 that your own interpretation of the results.
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`22 Q And you might have gone through this
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`23 already, but your responsibilities as chief --
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`24 A Scientist.
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`25 Q -- chief scientist?
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0013
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`14
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 A Today that is on a strategic level,
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` 3 so overlooking, you know, all of our science
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` 4 and see through that it is sound science. But
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` 5 it is also, of course, giving talks, talking
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` 6 with clients, but it is also -- involves such
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` 7 things as there are certain parts of science in
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` 8 our fishery operations, for example. We run
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` 9 labs onboard boats, we have different labs that
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`10 takes care of analyzing all the raw materials,
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`11 so it even encompasses such things.
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`12 And also, of course, when we change
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`13 our processes, problems or opportunities that
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`14 arise in our factory, selection of new
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`15 techniques, then, of course, prospective areas
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`16 of business. Yeah, that about summarizes it.
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`17 Q Okay. In paragraph 6 of your
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`18 declaration, you indicate that you're being
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`19 compensated by your normal salary by Aker
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`20 BioMarine AS?
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`21 A Yes.
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`22 Q Do you receive any other forms of
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`23 compensation?
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`24 A No.
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`25 Q Just a, just a salary?
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0014
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`15
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 A Just a salary.
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` 3 Q Okay. And Aker BioMarine AS is the
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` 4 owner of the patents that are the subject of
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` 5 the IPR's, correct?
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` 6 A That's correct.
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` 7 Q Okay. And would you consider those
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` 8 to be an important asset to the company?
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` 9 A Yes, I would.
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`10 Q Okay. So would you have any
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`11 particular interest in seeing that those
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`12 patents maintain their validity?
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`13 A I see Aker have an interest in that.
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`14 Q Okay. And as an employee and chief
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`15 scientist of Aker, would you also have an
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`16 interest in seeing those patents valid?
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`17 A Yeah, but I would, I would still make
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`18 a distinction between my personal -- my
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`19 personal interest and the interest of Aker. As
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`20 an employee of Aker, I take care of Aker's, but
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`21 that doesn't necessarily mean that I have a
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`22 personal interest in pursuing that.
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`23 Q And can you explain the corporate
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`24 structure of Aker BioMarine AS, whether it's a
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`25 subsidiary or if there are other companies that
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0015
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`16
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 are associated with Aker?
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` 3 A There are -- well, first of all, that
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` 4 metric is -- may not have been a fixed entity.
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` 5 There are -- we have had daughter companies at
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` 6 Aker that is now not there anymore.
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` 7 Q Okay. Yeah, I guess we should talk
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` 8 presently.
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` 9 A Presently the -- it's privately owned
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`10 by Aker, so it's not listed publicly. It was
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`11 in the past actually listed on the stock
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`12 exchange, and it was then on the open market.
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`13 But as of today, today it's privately owned.
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`14 It is -- it has certain subsidiaries. The
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`15 operations in Houston is separated out but
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`16 still part of the group, and --
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`17 Q What is that called?
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`18 A Aker Hughes -- or Aker Production,
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`19 Aker Production US.
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`20 Q Okay.
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`21 A I think that's the name of it. And
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`22 then there are -- for example, our sales
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`23 offices or our sales operations in the US is
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`24 separated out, and then there are different
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`25 operations that would be the same in Australia
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0016
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`17
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 and recently the same for China.
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` 3 Yeah, so that's -- but it is -- it's
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` 4 a fairly straightforward structure where all
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` 5 parts of the -- all parts of the company is
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` 6 fairly well integrated.
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` 7 Q Is there a parent company to Aker
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` 8 BioMarine presently?
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` 9 A You know, there is a company called
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`10 Aker BioMarine Antarctic, which I am frankly
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`11 not sure if that is the parent company of Aker
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`12 BioMarine or vice versa, or if it's a
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`13 subsidiary of Aker BioMarine. I can't tell
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`14 you.
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`15 Q Okay. And do you hold any other
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`16 positions within Aker in any of these other
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`17 companies?
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`18 A No.
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`19 Q Okay. And in paragraph 7 of your
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`20 declaration, you identify the documents that
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`21 you reviewed in preparing this declaration.
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`22 A Yup.
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`23 Q Did you review any other documents?
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`24 I'm sorry. Let me back up.
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`25 Did you review any of these documents
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0017
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`18
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 in order to prepare for your deposition today?
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` 3 A Yes, I did.
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` 4 Q Okay. Can you tell me which ones?
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` 5 A The ones that are listed here.
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` 6 Q All of them?
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` 7 A Yes.
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` 8 Q Okay. Did you review any other
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` 9 documents in preparing for your deposition
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`10 today?
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`11 A No.
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`12 Q Okay. Did you speak with anyone
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`13 other than your attorneys in preparation for
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`14 the deposition today?
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`15 A Nope.
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`16 Q And can you explain generally the
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`17 process for putting this declaration together?
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`18 A Well, first of all, the process of
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`19 doing this, first, I need the, I need the
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`20 assistance of my attorneys for the legal parts
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`21 and for the structural part of this. Of
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`22 course, I'm not a legal expert, so I'm not able
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`23 to construct this specific type of legal
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`24 structure.
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`25 But, of course, that being said, the
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0018
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`19
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 way to go about this is, of course, to know the
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` 3 case and to know exactly what kind of questions
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` 4 are at stake. And then based on the reviewed
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` 5 literature, answer the questions and the --
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` 6 raised by the Petitioner and then present my
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` 7 view on the facts.
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` 8 Q Okay. So did you actually draft this
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` 9 document?
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`10 A I wrote this document, but, again, as
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`11 I said, of course, in collaboration with our
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`12 attorneys.
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`13 Q Uh-huh. Okay. And I guess on page
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`14 12, section IV of the declaration, you begin to
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`15 describe the patent claims in this case for the
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`16 905 patent.
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`17 A Uh-huh.
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`18 Q And in paragraph 19, you indicate
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`19 that "Claim 1 specifies an encapsulated krill
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`20 oil comprising a capsule containing an
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`21 effective amount of krill oil, said krill oil
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`22 comprising from about 3 percent to about 15
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`23 percent weight-per-weight ether phospholipids."
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`24 A Uh-huh.
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`25 Q And then on the next page, top of
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0019
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`20
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 page 13, you indicate that "There are some
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` 3 dependent claims, including the 30 percent
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` 4 total phospholipids and 30 percent
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` 5 phosphatidylcholine."
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` 6 Do you see that there?
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` 7 A Yes.
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` 8 Q Okay. And I just wanted to --
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` 9 (Hoem Exhibit 2, PowerPoint
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`10 presentation, marked for identification.)
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`11 Q Okay. Dr. Hoem, I'm going to show
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`12 you what's been marked as Hoem Exhibit 2
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`13 and ask if you recognize that.
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`14 (Discussion held off the record.)
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`15 Okay. It's also been marked as
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`16 Exhibit 1080, just for the record.
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`17 Do you recognize the PowerPoint
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`18 presentation?
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`19 A Yes, I do.
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`20 Q Okay. And I just wanted to just
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`21 refer to it quickly because I think it will
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`22 help us explain and understand what we're
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`23 talking about in terms of the phospholipids. I
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`24 like this one page that you have here that's
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`25 titled "Differences in Structure and Function
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`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0020
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`21
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` 1 HOEM
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` 2 of Triglycerides and Phospholipids."
`
` 3 A Yup. It's on page -- yeah.
`
` 4 Q Okay. I think this can help us
`
` 5 understand what we're talking about when we
`
` 6 refer to phospholipids.
`
` 7 A Uh-huh.
`
` 8 Q And I like this graphic here. So
`
` 9 here, in describing the phospholipids, you
`
`10 mention a glycerol backbone here?
`
`11 A Yes.
`
`12 Q With two fatty acids attached and the
`
`13 phosphate group attached?
`
`14 A Yes.
`
`15 Q And to the head of the phosphate
`
`16 group you could have other substituents.
`
`17 A Yeah, as an example.
`
`18 Q Okay. So generally when we refer to
`
`19 phospholipids in krill oil, we're talking about
`
`20 things with this general structure.
`
`21 A Generally, yes.
`
`22 Q Okay. And so if we're talking about
`
`23 phosphatidylcholine, that would -- what would
`
`24 that, what would that -- how would that be
`
`25 identified?
`
`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0021
`
`
`
`22
`
`
` 1 HOEM
`
` 2 A The X would be then a choline.
`
` 3 Q A choline group, right?
`
` 4 And you can have different types of
`
` 5 phosphatidylcholine -- correct? -- alkyl acyl
`
` 6 phosphatidylcholine and others?
`
` 7 A But then you are touching on other
`
` 8 parts of the structure.
`
` 9 Q Right.
`
`10 A The choline is attached the same way.
`
`11 So the head group attaches to the phosphate the
`
`12 same way for different type groups.
`
`13 Q Uh-huh.
`
`14 A But then there are other
`
`15 possibilities.
`
`16 Q Right. And the fatty acids, those
`
`17 could be Omega-3 fatty acids, DHA, EPA?
`
`18 A Could be.
`
`19 Q Okay. Typically that's where those
`
`20 would be attached?
`
`21 A Typically the Omega-3 fatty acids
`
`22 would be attached in the two position, so in
`
`23 the middle position.
`
`24 Q Okay. And I think you mentioned
`
`25 before you didn't have any active involvement
`
`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0022
`
`
`
`23
`
`
` 1 HOEM
`
` 2 in preparing what I'll call the 905 or the 877
`
` 3 patents.
`
` 4 A No, I didn't.
`
` 5 Q Okay. But you understand what's
`
` 6 disclosed here?
`
` 7 A I do.
`
` 8 Q Okay. And can you explain to us
`
` 9 generally the procedure described in these
`
`10 patents? And I think we can agree the
`
`11 description or the specification are the same
`
`12 in both.
`
`13 A Uh-huh.
`
`14 Q Can you describe for us generally the
`
`15 procedure outlined for extracting phospholipids
`
`16 from krill?
`
`17 A I could describe the procedure given
`
`18 in these patents.
`
`19 Q Yeah.
`
`20 A That doesn't mean that that is a
`
`21 general procedure for extracting.
`
`22 Q No, no, that's what I'm asking.
`
`23 A So specifically in these patents.
`
`24 Q Uh-huh.
`
`25 A Very briefly, they all -- well, first
`
`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0023
`
`
`
`24
`
`
` 1 HOEM
`
` 2 of all, they are on krill and specifically on
`
` 3 Antarctic krill and specifically on Euphausia
`
` 4 superba. And in the patents they are --
`
` 5 they're mentioned, all those three
`
` 6 possibilities.
`
` 7 They are also on extraction of krill
`
` 8 that has been denatured. An important part of
`
` 9 the patent is also that, that this denaturing
`
`10 step is important for maintaining what you want
`
`11 simply.
`
`12 There are, there are -- they also
`
`13 describe the extraction procedure of that raw
`
`14 material, but I stress that the raw material is
`
`15 important for the product. And the extraction
`
`16 procedure mentions -- I will actually have to
`
`17 look.
`
`18 Q Sure. And just for the record, what
`
`19 you're looking at here is the 905 patent --
`
`20 A Okay.
`
`21 Q -- which has previously been
`
`22 identified as Exhibit 1001.
`
`23 (Discussion held off the record.)
`
`24 A I just want to be sure, I don't want
`
`25 to mix up -- I want to read this.
`
`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0024
`
`
`
`25
`
`
` 1 HOEM
`
` 2 Q Yeah. No, that's fine. Take your
`
` 3 time.
`
` 4 A Yeah. So they also mention the use
`
` 5 of supercritical CO2 and with various amounts
`
` 6 of ethanol as an entrencher into, into the CO2
`
` 7 supercritical extraction as necessary,
`
` 8 supercritical carbon dioxide extraction.
`
` 9 I think that describes the -- it's
`
`10 really a fairly straightforward extraction, but
`
`11 it has its, has its specifics necessary to be
`
`12 able to extract the kind of material you get
`
`13 out of krill.
`
`14 Q Okay. And so is it the ethanol
`
`15 solvent that's actually extracting the polar
`
`16 lipids such as the phospholipids?
`
`17 A No. That would be an
`
`18 oversimplification of the situation. It is the
`
`19 CO2 with the right amount of ethanol that would
`
`20 do that.
`
`21 Q Okay.
`
`22 A So both components are necessary.
`
`23 Q Okay.
`
`24 A That's actually quite important.
`
`25 Q And so you're, you're extracting the
`
`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0025
`
`
`
`26
`
`
` 1 HOEM
`
` 2 lipids from the denatured krill.
`
` 3 A Uh-huh.
`
` 4 Q And part of those lipids are
`
` 5 phospholipids.
`
` 6 A Yes.
`
` 7 Q Which in the percentages are
`
` 8 specified in some of the claims, correct?
`
` 9 A Yes.
`
`10 Q And when you're extracting those
`
`11 phospholipids, would you also be extracting the
`
`12 phosphatidylcholine as part of the
`
`13 phospholipids?
`
`14 A Yes.
`
`15 Q And isn't one of the main ether
`
`16 phospholipids alkyl acyl phosphatidylcholine?
`
`17 A Yes.
`
`18 Q We'll call it AAPC.
`
`19 A Uh-huh.
`
`20 Q Okay? So when you extract the
`
`21 phospholipids, the phosphatidylcholine and the
`
`22 AAPC would also be extracted as part of that
`
`23 process, correct?
`
`24 A Yes.
`
`25 Q Would any other components be
`
`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0026
`
`
`
`27
`
`
` 1 HOEM
`
` 2 extracted?
`
` 3 A Well, it's a total lipid extract that
`
` 4 comes out, or depending on your specific set of
`
` 5 conditions for the extraction, some
`
` 6 sub-fraction of the lipids in general.
`
` 7 So you would, you would extract
`
` 8 triglycerides, you would extract free fatty
`
` 9 acids, you would extract the sterols. So, yes,
`
`10 you would extract other components.
`
`11 Q Okay. And would most of the
`
`12 triglycerides be extracted in the neutral
`
`13 portion of the lipid?
`
`14 A You can't -- the proportion of what
`
`15 you get is dependent on your specific
`
`16 extraction process, and it is also specific --
`
`17 it's actually also very dependent on the raw
`
`18 material. So you can't -- I can't give a
`
`19 specific ratio of -- or extraction ratio of
`
`20 these components as a general.
`
`21 Q Well, in the particular process that
`
`22 you described, disclosed in the patents here,
`
`23 would it be the supercritical extraction that
`
`24 would remove most of the triglycerides in the
`
`25 neutral fraction?
`
`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0027
`
`
`
`28
`
`
` 1 HOEM
`
` 2 A The process in itself is a
`
` 3 supercritical extraction regardless of if it
`
` 4 contains an entrencher or not. It just changes
`
` 5 the conditions. For example, when you add,
`
` 6 when you add ethanol, of course, then you
`
` 7 change the supercritical point. So you change
`
` 8 the necessary pressure and the necessary
`
` 9 temperatures.
`
`10 Pure CO2 would have a supercritical
`
`11 point of 31 degrees Celsius and about 60 bars.
`
`12 Well, that really changes when you put in more
`
`13 ethanol.
`
`14 Q Uh-huh.
`
`15 A And, again, it is a complete system
`
`16 of extraction, and I can't say that it's the
`
`17 CO2 that takes out this or the ethanol that
`
`18 takes it. In this it's a mixture, and it is
`
`19 the whole apparatus that do the extraction.
`
`20 Q Okay. Well, hypothetically if you
`
`21 were to just use CO2 neat, let's say, wouldn't
`
`22 that extract mainly just the neutral fraction,
`
`23 which would include the triglycerides?
`
`24 A Without any entrencher (phonetic)?
`
`25 Q Yes.
`
`RIMFROST EXHIBIT 1090 page 0028
`
`
`
`29
`
`
` 1 HOEM
`
` 2 A Then you would -- well, I haven't
`
` 3 done this, so it would be speculation. And the
`
` 4 value of me speculating on that is -- I have
`
` 5 not done extractions by CO2 alone, so, frankly,
`
` 6 I do not -- to answer that would be a mere
`
` 7 speculation.
`
` 8 Q Okay. Have you seen any articles
`
` 9 that have discussed it?
`
`10 A I've seen articles --
`
`11 Q Which articles?
`
`12 A -- that discuss that, and, and the
`
`13 articles conclude that pure CO2 was such that
`
`14 you mainly extract triglycerides. I've never
`
`15 done that.
`
`16 Q Okay. And that would include the
`
`17 Yamaguchi reference referred to in your
`
`18 declaration?
`
`19 A Yup.
`
`20 Q Okay. And then so is the polar
`
`21 extract -- or the polar solvent, rather than,
`
`22 added in order to help extract more of the
`
`23 phos
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