RIMFROST AS vs.
`AKER BIOMARINE ANTARCTIC AS
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`STEPHEN TALLON
`August 29, 2018
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`Original File 243718.TXT
`Min-U-Script® with Word Index
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 1
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`AKER BIOMARINE ANTARCTIC AS
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`STEPHEN TALLON
`August 29, 2018
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`Original File 243718.TXT
`Min-U-Script® with Word Index
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 1
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`1
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` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` 2 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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` 3 RIMFROST AS,
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` 4 Petitioner,
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` 5 -against-
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` 6 AKER BIOMARINE ANTARCTIC AS,
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` 7 Patent Owner.
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` 8 Case No. IPR2018-00295
` US Patent 9,320,765
` 9 Issue Date April 26, 2016
` Title: Bioeffective Krill Oil Compositions
`10 ------------------------------------------------X
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`11
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`12 6 Campus Drive
` Parsippany, New Jersey
`13
` August 29, 2018
`14 8:55 a.m.
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`15
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`16 Deposition of Expert Witness, STEPHEN TALLON,
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`17 PhD, before Rita Persichetty, a Notary Public of
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`18 the State of New Jersey.
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23 ELLEN GRAUER COURT REPORTING CO, LLC
` 126 East 56th Street, Fifth Floor
`24 New York, New York 10022
` 212-750-6434
`25 REF: 243718
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 2
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` 1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
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` 3 HOFFMAN & BARON, LLP
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` 4 Attorneys for Petitioner
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` 5 6 Campus Drive
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` 6 Parsippany, New Jersey 07054-4406
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` 7 BY: MICHAEL CHAKANSKY
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` 8 JAMES F. HARRINGTON, ESQ.
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` 9 PHONE: 973.331.1700
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`10 EMAIL: Mchakansky@hbiplaw.com
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`11
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`12
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`13 CASIMIR JONES S.C.
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`14 Attorneys for Patent Owner
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`15 2275 Deming Way, Suite 310
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`16 Middleton, Wisconsin 53562
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`17 BY: J. MITCHELL JONES, J.D., PhD
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`18 PHONE: 608.662.1277
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`19 EMAIL: Jmjones@casimirjones.com
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` 1 ------------------- I N D E X -------------------
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` 2 WITNESS EXAMINATION BY PAGE
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` 3 STEPHEN TALLON MR. JONES 4
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` 6 ---------------- E X H I B I T S ----------------
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` 7 TALLONG DESCRIPTION FOR I.D.
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` 9 NO EXHIBITS MARKED
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` 1 S T E P H E N T A L L O N,
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` 2 called as a witness, having been sworn
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` 3 by the Notary Public, was examined and
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` 4 testified as follows:
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` 5
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` 6 EXAMINATION BY
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` 7 MR. JONES:
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` 8 Q Well, hello, Dr. Tallon. So I'm
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` 9 Mitch Jones. You remember from the previous
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`10 proceedings. I'll be asking you some questions
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`11 today related to IPR2018-00295.
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`12 I understand that you agreed to
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`13 provide expert opinions for petitioner in this
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`14 case?
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`15 A That is correct.
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`16 Q And you've been deposed before in
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`17 these IPR proceedings and in related IPR
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`18 proceedings?
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`19 A In related matters, yes.
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`20 Q And so you generally understand the
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`21 rules for depositions?
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`22 A Worth going over again, just to be
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`23 sure.
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`24 Q Sure. So we need to speak one at a
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`25 time, loudly and as clearly as possible. Your
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 5
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 answers need to be verbal. So no shakes of the
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` 3 head or, you know, body motions. And if you
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` 4 need -- have any reason for a break or need a
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` 5 break, let us know, and we can arrange that.
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` 6 So is there any reason you believe
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` 7 that you can't answer competently today?
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` 8 A No.
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` 9 Q Okay. We're going to start with
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`10 Exhibit 1006. So is this the expert
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`11 declaration that you prepared for the 295 IPR?
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`12 A For the '765 patent, yes.
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`13 Q Great. So is there anything you'd
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`14 like to -- that you know that you'd like to
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`15 change about the declaration at this time?
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`16 A No.
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`17 Q Okay. Great. So we'll get that out
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`18 because I think we're going to be referring to
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`19 it throughout, you know, the deposition today.
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`20 So this is Exhibit 1009.
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`21 MR. CHAKANSKY: And that's patent --
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`22 international patent publication number
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`23 W02007/123424.
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`24 Q And that's been marked as
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`25 Exhibit 1009 in this proceeding.
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 6
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`6
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 Looking at the front page, paragraph
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` 3 marked 72 lists Stephen Tallon as an inventor.
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` 4 Is that you?
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` 5 A It's me.
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` 6 Q And so you were involved in the
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` 7 preparation of this application?
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` 8 A That's correct.
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` 9 Q And do you know how many patents in
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`10 total that you -- separate patents that you've
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`11 been named as an inventor on?
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`12 A Not offhand, no.
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`13 Q Is it more than five?
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`14 A It would be approximately that order.
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`15 Q About five?
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`16 A Yes.
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`17 Q And when you're named as an inventor
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`18 on a patent, are you involved in drafting the
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`19 patent? I should say do you review drafts of
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`20 the patent before it's filed?
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`21 MR. CHAKANSKY: I'll object to the
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`22 form of the question.
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`23 Q In general.
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`24 So is it your general practice as an
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`25 inventor to review applications that you're
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 7
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 named as an inventor on before they're filed?
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` 3 A As part of preparing this patent, I
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` 4 did review the patent, yes.
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` 5 Q And did you review it -- do you
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` 6 remember if you reviewed this patent before it
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` 7 was filed as a PCT application?
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` 8 MR. CHAKANSKY: Object. Objection to
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` 9 the form of the question.
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`10 Are you asking him about before this
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`11 particular application was filed?
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`12 MR. JONES: Yes.
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`13 MR. CHAKANSKY: Okay. You mentioned
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`14 PCT.
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`15 A Well, for this patent I was involved
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`16 from the very early stages of drafting it. So,
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`17 yes, I have reviewed it in the beginning
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`18 stages.
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`19 Q So on the front page at paragraph 30
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`20 it has "priority data." Do you see where it
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`21 says that?
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`22 A Yes.
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`23 Q And it says, "priority data 546681"
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`24 and then "20 April, 2006."
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`25 Do you understand that to be the
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 8
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 priority document for the application that's
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` 3 marked as Exhibit 1009?
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` 4 A What I understand is what's written
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` 5 on the page in front of me. I don't understand
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` 6 necessarily the subtleties of priority dates
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` 7 and the legal ramifications of them.
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` 8 Q Okay. Great. So were you involved
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` 9 in the preparation of that priority document,
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`10 to the best of your memory?
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`11 A What do you mean by "preparation"?
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`12 Q Did you review the application?
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`13 A Yes, I reviewed the application.
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`14 Q Okay. And then up above that at
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`15 paragraphs 21 and 22, you'll see that this is
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`16 marked as international application number
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`17 PCT/NZ2007/000087.
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`18 A I see that, yes.
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`19 Q And it has an international filing
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`20 date of 20 April, 2007, correct?
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`21 A Correct.
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`22 Q And were you involved -- did you
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`23 review that application before it was filed on
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`24 the international filing date?
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`25 MR. CHAKANSKY: I'm going to object
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 9
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 simply because do you have that document
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` 3 so we can look at it?
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` 4 MR. JONES: Yeah.
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` 5 MR. CHAKANSKY: Can you show it to
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` 6 him so he can see whether or not, because
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` 7 you're asking him questions about it?
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` 8 And you're asking him questions
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` 9 about, you know, what he did. And these
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`10 things were filed, according to the face,
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`11 12 years ago, so...
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`12 And the numbers are, as you quote --
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`13 as you said, the numbers are pretty
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`14 strange. So if he could see the document,
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`15 that would be better, I think.
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`16 Q Let's just -- we'll make it a little
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`17 bit easier.
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`18 So in the patents that you're an
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`19 inventor on, it was your general practice to
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`20 review the applications before they were filed;
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`21 is that correct?
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`22 A That's correct.
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`23 Q Okay. Great. All right. So let's
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`24 go to page 2 of Exhibit 1009.
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`25 A Page 2, did you say?
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 10
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 Q Yeah. Would you go down to line 21
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` 3 of Exhibit 1009. Then there is a statement
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` 4 there that says, "The extract is considered to
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` 5 be more natural than extracts produced using
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` 6 other solvents."
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` 7 Do you see that?
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` 8 A I see that.
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` 9 Q Okay. And this document -- what do
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`10 you mean by "The extract is considered to be
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`11 more natural than extracts produced using other
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`12 solvents"?
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`13 A The intent of this is to reflect
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`14 the -- I guess, the properties of the CO2
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`15 extracted material with the extraction process
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`16 itself. It doesn't change the compositional
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`17 nature of the material being extracted so that
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`18 the compounds that are in the extract are the
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`19 same as the ones that are in the raw material
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`20 being extracted.
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`21 Q Can you turn to page 24 --
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`22 A Of the Catchpole --
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`23 Q -- of Exhibit 1009, yes.
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`24 Okay. Example 18 reads,
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`25 "Fractionation of krill lipids," correct?
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 11
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 A Yeah. Either of two example 18s on
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` 3 that page. But I can see the one that says
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` 4 "fractionation of krill lipids."
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` 5 Q Okay. So let's refer to example 18
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` 6 as being the top example 18 which refers to
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` 7 "fractionation of krill lipids."
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` 8 Then you see that there's a table 16?
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` 9 A Yes.
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`10 Q So table 16 lists a number of
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`11 compounds that are identified by abbreviations,
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`12 correct?
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`13 A Correct.
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`14 Q So we've got PC, PI, PS, PE, CL,
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`15 AAPC, and AAPE, correct?
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`16 A Correct.
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`17 Q And "PC" is phosphatidylcholine,
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`18 correct?
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`19 A Correct.
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`20 Q "PI" is phosphatidylinositol,
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`21 correct?
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`22 A Correct.
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`23 Q "PS" is phosphatidylserine?
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`24 A Correct.
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`25 Q "PE" is phosphatidylethanolamine,
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 12
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`12
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 correct?
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` 3 A Correct.
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` 4 Q "CL" is cardiolipin?
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` 5 A That's correct.
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` 6 Q "AAPC" is
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` 7 alkylacytlphosphatidylcholine?
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` 8 A Correct.
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` 9 Q And "AAPE" is
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`10 alkylacylphosphatidylethanolamine, correct?
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`11 A Correct.
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`12 Q So do you recall how the percentages
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`13 that are listed in table 16 of Exhibit 109 --
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`14 or 1009 were determined?
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`15 A Which percentages are you referring
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`16 to?
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`17 Q The percentages listed where it says
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`18 "composition, percent"?
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`19 A So the percentages of the different
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`20 phospholipids that you have just mentioned?
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`21 Q Correct.
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`22 A And what was your question?
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`23 Q What analytical technique was used to
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`24 determine those percentages?
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`25 A It was an NMR technique, a phosphorus
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 13
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 NMR technique.
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` 3 Q Okay. So do you recall the details
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` 4 of that phosphorus NMR technique that was used
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` 5 to determine the percentages of the
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` 6 phospholipid compounds in example 18 of
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` 7 Exhibit 1009?
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` 8 A The -- sorry, what was the question
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` 9 again?
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`10 (Record read.)
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`11 A It was the details part. Can you
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`12 elaborate on what you mean by the details?
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`13 Q So you've been the author of a number
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`14 of scientific papers, correct?
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`15 A That's correct.
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`16 Q And those are listed in the CV that's
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`17 attached to your expert declaration?
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`18 A That's correct.
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`19 Q Okay. As a normal part of let's
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`20 say -- let's stick with academic publications.
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`21 A Yup.
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`22 Q It's customary to describe the
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`23 materials and methods utilized in the
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`24 experiments described in the academic
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`25 reference, correct?
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 14
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 A With a relevance to the results that
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` 3 are being described.
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` 4 Q Okay. So using that -- so the
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` 5 details that I'm interested in knowing about
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` 6 with respect to the phosphorus NMR that was
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` 7 used in example 18 of Exhibit 1009, do you
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` 8 recall the materials and methods -- or the
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` 9 methods -- the materials and methods that were
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`10 used in that phosphorus P31 analysis?
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`11 A Yes. I know the techniques that were
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`12 used for the analysis in general terms. The
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`13 actual analysis itself was carried out by, in
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`14 fact, a colleague of mine in this case.
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`15 Q So you did not conduct the phosphorus
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`16 NMR analysis of the extract described -- the
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`17 extracts described in example 18 of
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`18 Exhibit 1009?
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`19 MR. CHAKANSKY: Objection to
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`20 "conduct." I mean, he participated in it,
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`21 but he might not have run the -- are you
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`22 asking if he actually ran the NMR
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`23 analysis?
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`24 MR. JONES: Yeah.
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`25 Q Did you run the NMR analysis?
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 15
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 A No. I didn't load the samples or run
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` 3 the NRM machine, no.
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` 4 Q And who did that?
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` 5 A In this case, the -- these analyses
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` 6 were done by a colleague of mine whose name was
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` 7 Andrew Mackenzie.
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` 8 Q And where was Andrew Mackenzie
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` 9 located?
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`10 A At the time this analysis was done?
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`11 Q Yes.
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`12 A In Lower Hutt, New Zealand.
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`13 Q At the time the analysis was
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`14 conducted, who were you employed by?
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`15 A I was employed by -- at the time the
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`16 company was known as Industrial Research
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`17 Limited.
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`18 Q Okay. Great. And was Andrew
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`19 Mackenzie employed by Industrial Research
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`20 Limited?
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`21 A Correct.
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`22 Q Okay. Great. And Andrew Mackenzie
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`23 is not listed as an inventor on this patent,
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`24 correct?
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`25 A That is correct.
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 16
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 Q Okay. Are you aware of whether the
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` 3 phosphorus P31 NMR technique that was used to
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` 4 analyze the extracts described in table 16 was
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` 5 capable of detecting lysophospholipids?
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` 6 A Sorry, can you repeat the --
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` 7 Q Are you aware of whether or not the
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` 8 phosphorus NMR technique that was utilized to
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` 9 analyze the extracts described in table 16 was
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`10 capable of detecting lysophospholipids?
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`11 A Yes.
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`12 Q Okay. And was it capable of
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`13 detecting N-acetylphosphatidylethanolamine?
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`14 A Yes.
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`15 Q Okay. Looking at table 16, I don't
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`16 see lysophospholipids in any form, or let me
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`17 just -- so can we agree to -- for
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`18 N-acetylphosphatidylethanolamine [sic], can we
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`19 agree to use the abbreviation "APE"?
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`20 A Yes. I'm okay with it.
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`21 Q And that's the normal abbreviation
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`22 that you would see for APE in the art -- or for
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`23 N-acetylphosphatidylethanolamine [sic]?
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`24 A We've used "NAPE."
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`25 Q Okay. Do you want to use -- are you
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 17
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 more comfortable with "NAPE," then?
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` 3 A Okay.
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` 4 MR. CHAKANSKY: NAPE.
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` 5 Q Okay. So table 16 does not list
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` 6 amounts of lysophospholipids in any form or
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` 7 NAPE; is that correct?
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` 8 A It doesn't identify them in the
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` 9 table, no.
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`10 Q Okay. Are you aware of in the
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`11 analysis of the extracts described in example
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`12 18 of whether or not lysophospholipids or NAPE
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`13 content of the extracts was determined?
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`14 A I don't recall whether they were or
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`15 weren't. I would need to look back at the data
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`16 again to see.
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`17 Q Okay. But sticking with table 16 of
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`18 Exhibit 1009, you cannot determine the amount
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`19 of lysophospholipids or NAPE that were present
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`20 in those extracts; is that correct?
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`21 MR. CHAKANSKY: I'll object to the
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`22 form of the question.
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`23 A Can I have the question again, then?
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`24 Q What's your understanding of what a
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`25 lysophospholipid is?
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 18
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 A That's a different question.
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` 3 Q I'm starting over again.
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` 4 A A lysophospholipid is one of the
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` 5 fatty acids that has been cleaved from the
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` 6 module.
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` 7 Q Okay. And so are you familiar with
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` 8 designating the fatty acid molecules of a
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` 9 phospholipid -- well, the fatty acid -- the
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`10 acyl groups or alkyl groups of a phospholipid
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`11 according to their sn-1 and sn-2 positions?
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`12 A Yes.
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`13 Q Okay. And so is it correct that a
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`14 lysophospholipid is a phospholipid that has an
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`15 acyl or alkyl group at one of the positions one
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`16 and two but not at the other?
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`17 A That's correct.
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`18 Q Okay. And is it your understanding
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`19 that you could have, say, for example,
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`20 lysophosphatidylcholine?
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`21 A Yes --
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`22 MR. CHAKANSKY: Objection to the form
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`23 of the question.
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`24 Q Is it your understanding that
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`25 lysophosphatidylcholine is a specific
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 19
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 lysophospholipid?
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` 3 A Yes. That's correct.
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` 4 Q And lysophosphatidylserine would be
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` 5 another type of lysophospholipid, correct?
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` 6 A Yes, that's correct.
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` 7 Q So looking at table 16 of
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` 8 Exhibit 1009, there are no lysophospholipids
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` 9 such as lysophosphatidylcholine or
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`10 lysophosphatidylserine identified in that
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`11 table, correct?
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`12 A They're not separately identified in
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`13 that table; that's correct.
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`14 Q And do you know why that is?
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`15 A I don't recall. But the patient
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`16 obviously had a particular focus at the time,
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`17 and the results that we've presented in the
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`18 table are the ones that we chose to disclose at
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`19 the time.
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`20 Q So at the time that exhibit one -- so
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`21 as of 2007, were lysophospholipids regarded in
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`22 the art as a degradation product of the
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`23 corresponding phospholipid molecule?
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`24 A Yes, certainly the degradation of,
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`25 you know, based on phospholipids to a
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 20
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 lysophospholipids was known, yes.
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` 3 Q How does that happen?
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` 4 A There are different possible
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` 5 mechanisms, but one of them is enzymatic.
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` 6 Q Are there mechanisms other than
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` 7 enzymatic for degradation of a phospholipid
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` 8 molecule into a lysophospholipid molecule?
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` 9 A There would be chemical ways to
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`10 marginalize phospholipids as well.
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`11 Q Okay. And as of 2007, was it
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`12 generally recognized that the lysophospholipid
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`13 content of a phospholipid preparation was a
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`14 measure or an indicator of whether or not that
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`15 phospholipid composition had been degraded?
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`16 A Can you put a little bit more context
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`17 around the "generally recognized" part of the
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`18 question?
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`19 Q Are you aware of references published
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`20 before 2007 that would indicate that the amount
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`21 of lysophospholipids in a -- in a phospholipid
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`22 extract was indicative of whether or not the
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`23 extract was degraded?
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`24 A Not in terms of specific references
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`25 that come immediately to mind. But I'm aware
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`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 21
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 that, yeah, the presence of high-enough levels
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` 3 of a lyso in forms of phospholipids would be
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` 4 one indicator that, yes, some degradation had
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` 5 occurred.
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` 6 Q Okay. So do you know if the
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` 7 phosphorus NMR technique that was used to
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` 8 analyze the extracts described in table 16 of
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` 9 Exhibit 1009 was capable of resolving separate
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`10 lysophospholipid species such as
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`11 lysophosphatidylcholine and
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`12 lysphosphatidylethanolamine?
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`13 A My understanding is that it was.
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`14 Q Okay. Would lysophosphatidylcholine
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`15 and lysophosphatidylethanolamine be natural
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`16 components of a phospholipid composition?
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`17 A In my understanding there's some
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`18 natural presence of lyso forms.
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`19 Q And what is your understanding of the
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`20 presence of those forms in a krill lipid
`
`21 extract such as described in example 18 of
`
`22 Exhibit 1009?
`
`23 MR. CHAKANSKY: Objection to the form
`
`24 of the question. That table doesn't have
`
`25 it, as you've elicited his testimony
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 22
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`22
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 doesn't have lyso disclosed expressly.
`
` 3 MR. JONES: Okay.
`
` 4 A Can I have the question again just to
`
` 5 hang on to it?
`
` 6 Q Yes. So at page 002 of Exhibit 1009,
`
` 7 line 21, you state, "The extract is considered
`
` 8 to be more natural than extracts produced using
`
` 9 other solvents."
`
`10 A Correct.
`
`11 Q Okay. And lysophospholipids
`
`12 naturally occur in krill oil, correct?
`
`13 A That's my understanding, that there
`
`14 will be some level present.
`
`15 Q And NAPE naturally occurs in krill
`
`16 oil, correct?
`
`17 A It's my understanding.
`
`18 Q Yet table 16 does not indicate that
`
`19 there was any level of lysophospholipids or
`
`20 NAPE in the krill oil that was analyzed,
`
`21 correct?
`
`22 MR. CHAKANSKY: I'll object.
`
`23 A No, that's not correct.
`
`24 Q Why is it not correct?
`
`25 A It doesn't state that they're not
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 23
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`23
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 present.
`
` 3 Q But the technique, the phosphorus NMR
`
` 4 technique that was utilized to analyze the
`
` 5 extracts listed in table 16, is it fair to say
`
` 6 that that technique would have resolved
`
` 7 lysophospholipids and NAPE as individual peaks?
`
` 8 A That would be my expectation.
`
` 9 Q Do you know why those types of
`
`10 phospholipids were not listed in table 16 of
`
`11 Exhibit 1009?
`
`12 MR. CHAKANSKY: Objection. Asked and
`
`13 answered.
`
`14 A No, I don't recall specifically.
`
`15 Q Okay. As of 2007, would it have been
`
`16 useful to a person of skill in the art to know
`
`17 the lysophospholipid content of the extracts
`
`18 described in table 16 of Exhibit 1009?
`
`19 A What do you mean by "useful"?
`
`20 Q Okay. So would knowing the level of
`
`21 lysophospholipids in the krill lipid extracts
`
`22 described in example at table 16 of
`
`23 Exhibit 1009 aided a person of skill in the art
`
`24 in determining whether or not the extract had
`
`25 been subject to degradation?
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 24
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`24
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 A That information would have given no
`
` 3 positive sum indication.
`
` 4 Q Okay. So have you ever used the term
`
` 5 "complex lipids" to describe phospholipids?
`
` 6 A Not only phospholipids but I've used
`
` 7 the term "complex lipids" before.
`
` 8 Q And what are complex lipids?
`
` 9 A In my general usage of it, I
`
`10 associate it with polar lipids in general,
`
`11 which includes phospholipids.
`
`12 Q And what makes them complex lipids?
`
`13 A I don't know the origins of the term
`
`14 "complex lipids" and why it's in use. But it's
`
`15 a term that I'm familiar with was used in
`
`16 connection with polar lipids.
`
`17 Q So with regard to polar lipids, did
`
`18 they have -- do polar lipids have different
`
`19 degrees of polarity?
`
`20 A Yes, different polar lipids have
`
`21 different degrees of polarity.
`
`22 Q And those different degrees of
`
`23 polarity of polar lipids, did that affect their
`
`24 extraction from a natural source?
`
`25 A Can you be a little bit more specific
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 25
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`25
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` 1 TALLON
`
` 2 about the extraction and the source of the
`
` 3 material, too?
`
` 4 Q Okay. So let's stick with -- so
`
` 5 let's take phosphatidylcholine and
`
` 6 lysophosphatidylcholine.
`
` 7 A Okay.
`
` 8 Q They differ by -- one has two acyl
`
` 9 groups attached at the sn-1 and sn-2 positions,
`
`10 and the lyso form is going to have one acyl
`
`11 group attached to one of the sn-1, sn-2
`
`12 positions, correct?
`
`13 A Correct.
`
`14 Q Did those two -- do
`
`15 phosphatidylcholine and lysophosphatidylcholine
`
`16 have different polarities?
`
`17 A Yes.
`
`18 Q Does that affect their extraction --
`
`19 do the differing polarities of
`
`20 phosphatidylcholine and lysophosphatidylcholine
`
`21 affect the extent to which they can be
`
`22 extracted from a natural material such as
`
`23 krill?
`
`24 A That would depend on the stretch in
`
`25 solvent and the extraction method and, to some
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 26
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`26
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` 1 TALLON
`
` 2 extent, the raw material as well.
`
` 3 Q Okay. So using the conditions of
`
` 4 example 18 of Exhibit 1009 which is labeled
`
` 5 "fractionation of krill lipids" -- so those
`
` 6 conditions -- would you expect
`
` 7 phosphatidylcholine and there to be -- would
`
` 8 you expect there to be a difference in the
`
` 9 solubility of phosphatidylcholine and
`
`10 lysophosphatidylcholine?
`
`11 MR. CHAKANSKY: Can he read the
`
`12 conditions you're referring to? He hasn't
`
`13 read it in...
`
`14 MR. JONES: Yeah.
`
`15 A As a question, I will note that there
`
`16 are a number of different stages and steps and
`
`17 extraction conditions you described, so...
`
`18 Q Okay. Let's break it down a little
`
`19 bit, then.
`
`20 So example 18 describes that a freeze
`
`21 dried krill powder containing 21.4 percent
`
`22 lipid and corresponding phospholipid
`
`23 concentrations shown in table 16 was extracted
`
`24 continuously with supercritical CO2 at 300 bar
`
`25 and 313 K until no further extract was
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 27
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`27
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 obtained, correct?
`
` 3 A Correct.
`
` 4 Q Okay. Then it says, "This extract
`
` 5 contained no phospholipids and was
`
` 6 substantially all neutral lipids," correct?
`
` 7 MR. CHAKANSKY: I'll object that you
`
` 8 left out extract one.
`
` 9 MR. JONES: Okay. Let me rephrase
`
`10 it.
`
`11 Q This extract, extract one, contained
`
`12 no phospholipids and was substantially all
`
`13 neutral lipids, correct?
`
`14 A Correct.
`
`15 Q Okay. So it's correct to state,
`
`16 then, that no phospholipids or -- well, let's
`
`17 strike that.
`
`18 Then it's correct to say that the
`
`19 conditions used to make extract one -- let me
`
`20 rephrase it. Strike that again.
`
`21 So is it correct to say that
`
`22 phosphatidylcholine and lysophosphatidylcholine
`
`23 were not soluble under the conditions used to
`
`24 make extract one?
`
`25 A Not enough to be reported as being
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 28
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`28
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` 1 TALLON
`
` 2 present in extract one, correct.
`
` 3 Q Okay. Example 18 of Exhibit 1009
`
` 4 then goes on to describe that the residual
`
` 5 powder was then extracted with CO2 and absolute
`
` 6 ethanol using a mass ratio of ethanol to carbon
`
` 7 dioxide of 11 percent, correct?
`
` 8 A Correct.
`
` 9 Q Okay. Under those conditions would
`
`10 you expect there to be a difference in
`
`11 solubility between phosphatidylcholine and
`
`12 lysophosphatidylcholine?
`
`13 A Yes, I would expect there to be
`
`14 differences under those particular conditions.
`
`15 Q And what would those differences be?
`
`16 A So the lysophosphatidylcholine is
`
`17 going to be a bit more polar. And so it's
`
`18 likely that the solubility and the rate of
`
`19 extraction may be a bit lower for the lysoPC
`
`20 than it is for a diacylPC.
`
`21 Q So is it fair to say that under these
`
`22 conditions that are described in example 18
`
`23 that there is selective extraction of
`
`24 phosphatidylcholine as compared to
`
`25 lysophosphatidylcholine?
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 29
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`29
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 MR. CHAKANSKY: I'll object as to
`
` 3 which condition your referring to. We
`
` 4 went through two of them.
`
` 5 MR. JONES: Let me rephrase it.
`
` 6 Q So is it fair to say that under the
`
` 7 conditions described for extract two in example
`
` 8 18 of Exhibit 1009, that those conditions
`
` 9 favored the extraction of phosphatidylcholine
`
`10 over lysophosphatidylcholine?
`
`11 A So under those conditions with CO2 in
`
`12 11 percent ethanol which in this patent were
`
`13 intended to -- you know, those particular
`
`14 conditions were intended to accentuate any
`
`15 differences that there might be in extraction
`
`16 of phospholipids, then, yes, I would expect
`
`17 that there would be a difference in the rate of
`
`18 extraction of lysophosphatidylcholine compared
`
`19 to phosphatidylcholine.
`
`20 But whether or not that affects the
`
`21 final extent or yield of those two components,
`
`22 I couldn't tell offhand.
`
`23 Q And -- I'm sorry. So you said that
`
`24 the conditions used to make extract two were
`
`25 intended to accentuate the -- sorry, to
`
`AKER EXHIBIT 2024 Page 30
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`30
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` 1 TALLON
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` 2 accentuate?
`
` 3 Can you read that back?
`
` 4 (Record read.)
`
` 5 Q What did you mean by accentuate any
`
` 6 difference in the extraction of phospholipids?
`
` 7 A It was an objective of this patent to
`
` 8 be able to concentrate specific, desirable
`
` 9 lipids and, particularly, phospho
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